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Storm Bringer
2007-08-11, 12:40 PM
I'm just seeing if i understand their rules right.

If i've read the rules right, the difficulty of speaking a truename of a monster is 15 plus twice the monsters CR.

this means that If i wanted to use a truename on, say, a 20th level BBEG, I'd need to make a DC55 truename check.

now, even with 23 ranks in truename, skill focus and a int of 23, I'd stil need to roll 23 on a D20 to affect a equal level enemy.....or a party member.


what am i missing here?

Quietus
2007-08-11, 12:46 PM
From what I've heard on the boards, this is correct. Truenaming is considered weak, because it's so incredibly difficult to actually *use*.

Solo
2007-08-11, 12:47 PM
Yeah, you've figured out the problem with truenamers....


A one level dip in Exemplar will help with making DCs (so i hear) and you can get custom crafted items to help with Truespeak DCs (psionic crystal shards give one time bonuses to any one selected skill check), but without using some rather rare strategies, Truenaming is a bit... difficult.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-11, 01:00 PM
There are skill bonus items in the book itself, which are pretty much a necessity.

UglyPanda
2007-08-11, 01:06 PM
The first level of Exemplar lets you take 10 with a certain number of skills, regardless of the circumstances. It also gives a +4 competence bonus to a skill, which doesn't stack with bonuses from magic items. At level 20, with +1 inherent bonus (at least), and +6 from a headband of intellect, that's at least 30 int.

10 (Exemplar)
23 ranks
10 (int)
+3 skill focus
-------------
46

A +30 custom item costs 90k, which is affordable at that level, but the DC goes up throughout the day.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-11, 01:19 PM
Custom items are variant and using the DMG pricing guidelines as is is a very bad idea, I personally would never allow +30 competence bonus to skill items.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-11, 01:21 PM
Technically, a +30 item would cost 900K, because it's well beyond the bonuses given by normal items, and thus affected by the x10 "Epic Item" cost multiplier.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-11, 01:23 PM
Nuh-uh. +30 is the non-epic cap.

UglyPanda
2007-08-11, 01:25 PM
Bonuses to specific skills always follow the pricing guidelines. It's only when a magic item produces a spell effect that the pricing guidelines stop making sense. Also, by the time a player can afford a +30 item, there aren't many skill checks he needs to make that are high enough to require it. It's just being mean if ban those items.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-11, 01:29 PM
Nuh-uh. +30 is the non-epic cap.

Really?

I stand corrected then...

Arbitrarity
2007-08-11, 01:47 PM
Why do you think they always say "+30 item" not +40?

From The SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm)

Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.

Storm Bringer
2007-08-11, 01:52 PM
thankyou, that starts to make sense now.

I was aware that the tome of magic classes were ment to be 'toned down', i just didn't expect to have to get the stilton out (http://thefilter.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/stilton.jpg) just to use a core ability on a fellow player.

ironically, it's a rather good class at lower levels, as a first level turenamer can use his skill on a fellow 1HD/CR being with a DC17 check on a skill with +11bonus (4 ranks, 18 int for +4, and skill focus).

the +5/+10 items are actaully quite nice, and i can hardly complain for 2.5/10 grand for them (compared to say the price of a really a good sword...)

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-11, 02:03 PM
So . . . fixes?

PinkysBrain
2007-08-11, 02:10 PM
Bonuses to specific skills always follow the pricing guidelines. It's only when a magic item produces a spell effect that the pricing guidelines stop making sense.
They both follow the guidelines ... they both break the game. The fixed DC and opposed skill checks break down when you start giving out these huge bonuses for a pittance. Should all high level characters auto-succeed on tumble checks and UMD checks to use wands/staffs? Not in my game.

BTW, the DMG guidelines give a price for competence bonuses and not enhancement bonuses ... so how does the ELH apply even for >30 bonus items? :)

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-11, 02:17 PM
Bonuses to specific skills always follow the pricing guidelines. It's only when a magic item produces a spell effect that the pricing guidelines stop making sense.

And yet, that isn't even a good generalization. There are lots of spells that are balanced for using the pricing guidelines. Constant item of Endure Elements for 1K gold- not a big deal. Constant item of Prestidigation for 1K gold- not a big deal. Item of cure light wounds 5/day for 2K gold- not a big deal. Item of Cure Light Wounds at Will for 2K gold- Big Deal.

EDIT- but then again, I am a fan of X/day spell items. If you want, say, a trident that can cast a 7d6 lightning bolt 3/day, I will probably OK it.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-11, 02:19 PM
So . . . fixes?

I've seen a couple that fool around with the dc, like having only the CR+X, and also make the skill unable to be modified by items and the like.

UglyPanda
2007-08-11, 02:22 PM
"Enhancement bonus" is a typo. Skills never have enhancement bonuses. Also, what's so bad about auto-success on tumbling? An incredibly expensive item to avoid an AoO? For everything else: I repeat, by the time you can afford it (level 17 by wealth by level guidelines and maximum of 30% on a single item), you don't really need it unless you're going for theoretical and/or pointless optimization. Besides, spells are way more powerful than using a magic item for the same effect, and spells usually don't stack.

Edit:
To Skjaldbakka, what I meant to say was that when an exact numerological effect is applied by an item, the writers often follow those guidelines almost exactly. For spells, sometimes you shouldn't and sometimes they didn't.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-11, 02:23 PM
So I believe the problem may be that the designers assumed you would buy these items, and set the DC's accordingly. Given the campaign that I plan to run Truenamers in won't have much magic item access, I shoudl probably counter-adjust.

bugsysservant
2007-08-11, 02:31 PM
Generally, the prices for items seem fair to me, but their are a few exceptions. The one that comes to mind would be the theoretical "gloves of true strike" which can only be used by a certain class with a certain skill. If you commision them to those particulars, you can have an item that negates cover and concealment, and provides a +20 to attack for 1,200 gp. And it stacks with any enhancement bonuses already on your weapon, and doesn't increase its price. Now that is unbalanced.
The guidelines provided are just that, guidelines, and ultimately DM arbitration should hold sway over all custom items.

Kyeudo
2007-08-11, 02:39 PM
My personal fix for Truenaming is to change the check to DC 20+the creature's CR

Currently, you need to roll a 11 on average to successfuly truename a creature at level 1. (15+ (2*CR 1) - 4 skill ranks - 2 ability modifier), which is realy easy at early levels, and can even get it as low as 5, but then increases by 2 each level, while your skill check only increases by 1 on most levels, which is the problem.

With this, the average check needed is DC 16, which is makable, once or twice a day, similar to a low level wizard's number of spell slots, but as you level and face tougher creatures the DC will only increase by 1, while your skill modifier goes up by 1 on most levels and your feats and magic items become benefits, instead of crutches to prop your class up.

goat
2007-08-11, 03:49 PM
I think early level truename checks SHOULD be fairly easy, simply because they have so little choice in what they can do. A level 1 Truenamer knows 1 utterance, and one utterance only. They can't only use one, they can only KNOW one. You might as well let them use it a lot.

Kyeudo
2007-08-11, 05:28 PM
True, they have limited knowledge of utterances, but if you don't make the DC mean something to start with, then you end up with high level PCs running around reshaping the world with a word. Wizards already do that too well, and I want to make Truenaming usable, not abusable.

goat
2007-08-11, 06:12 PM
I don't know if I agree or not. It should actually get harder to pull off utterances as you go up in levels, they get more choice with theoretically unlimited attempts and uses.

But they are limited by the increase in difficulty as they target the same thing. That CAN wreck their ability to effectively buff during late in the day encounters, or repeatedly de-buff a powerful enemy that's only weak against certain things.

Kyeudo
2007-08-11, 06:54 PM
Well, lets do some number crunching.

With the basic DC 15 + twice CR formula, a level 1 Truenamer, without much optimization, only need to roll an average of 11 for their first utterance of the day, which means that he can speak that utterance roughly 5 times without needing further optimization.

At level 20, An optimized truenamer has to make a DC 55 check, can grab a +46 modifier, IF he has a greater amulet of the silver tongue, has a +6 headband of intellect, is a grey elf or an illumian, rolled an 18 to use for his intelligence, and took Skill Focus (Truespeak), which lets him suceed on a roll a 9 and lets him use his utterances about 6 times.

Without the severe optimizing, I.E. one not a 30 Int Grey Elf with wads of cash spent on buffing his truespeak skill, a Truenamer probably has only around a +36 modifier, allowing him to succeed only on a roll of 19!

With my system, A truenamer will need a roll of 16 for his first utterance, and so will only get 2 uses at level 1, but that DC at level 20 is only 40, 15 points lower, and thus the high level truespeaker can actualy feel like he's useful without having to optimize.

Wizards don't need a headband of Intellect +6 or optimization to be effective, so why should Truenamers?

goat
2007-08-11, 07:25 PM
I'm not even sure that Truenamers should be considered pure mages. It might be better to optimise them in a fifth-man role, what with their 3/4 BAB and D6 HP.

But saying that, they have a pretty crap skill-set. If you've got a +4 int bonus, you'll be on 8 points a level minimum, which lets you max out 3 knowledge skills and everything else you get without cross-classing.

Kyeudo
2007-08-11, 07:50 PM
Even if you consider the Truenamer nothing more than a hopped up bard, he still needs to reliably buff his team at higher levels. The current system doesn't work, and needs to be lowered, but if we make it too easy, then at high levels Truenamers will not be challanged at all.

What would you suggest for a DC?

ImperiousLeader
2007-08-12, 12:47 AM
Honestly, I'm of the opinion that a skill-based spell mechanic is just a bad idea under the current system. Wait and see if 4.0 changes the skill mechanic (and I'm not exactly clamouring for 4.0). It's a pity, but Pact magic was the only system in Tome of Magic I consider useable. I like Shadow Magic, but the Shadowcaster needs serious houseruling to bring it up to snuff. Truename Magic, while an interesting concept, seems too difficult to rework.

Still, here's an idea that just popped into my head ... what about leaving the check 15+2xCR, but add the following to the calculation ... - 2x [ (highest level of utterance castable) - (level of utterance being cast) ].

IOW, if a truenamer could cast 6th level utterances and used a 6th level utterance, the DC would be unchanged, but using a 1st level utterance would cut 10 off the DC.

Draz74
2007-08-12, 12:52 AM
I'm just seeing if i understand their rules right.

If i've read the rules right, the difficulty of speaking a truename of a monster is 15 plus twice the monsters CR.

this means that If i wanted to use a truename on, say, a 20th level BBEG, I'd need to make a DC55 truename check.

now, even with 23 ranks in truename, skill focus and a int of 23, I'd stil need to roll 23 on a D20 to affect a equal level enemy.....or a party member.


what am i missing here?

To summarize the other answers you've gotten, without invoking powergamer techniques like dipping a level of Exemplar or cheezy techniques like custom items:

You should really have an Intelligence of 30 by Level 20. A truenamer just can't afford to bump any of his other stats at the expense of Int. So if he starts with a 15 (which even a character on the Elite Array can do), he can get +6 from a Headband, +5 from level boosts, and +4 from a Tome of Clear Thought. (This is assuming a race with no Int penalty nor bonus.)

Then, it's pretty much a necessity to get the amulet in Tome of Magic that gives a +10 bonus to Truespeech. That amulet was really meant to be a part of the Truenamer's game balance.

So you should have a +46 Truespeak check. (23 ranks +3 feat +10 Int +10 item.) That still means your Utterances have a 40% failure rate when used on an ally or a Level 20 BBEG, which is why people feel that Truenamers just suck without optimization (e.g. custom items). You could, however, decide that this is just the price you pay for playing a non-broken caster. At least most of your Utterances don't allow the BBEG a save.

Not that Truenamers are super. When you start adding to the DC of a Truespeak check, you lose power quickly -- and for some reason your low-level Utterances are no easier to use than your high-level Utterances. This makes Metaspeech feats very hard to use unless you're fighting mooks or NPCs that are lower level than you. Similarly, Uttering Defensively is tough. You also have to use a wide variety of your Known Utterances to have a decent success rate, due to the Law of Resistance. That's tough, because you don't actually know that many Utterances, and you probably wanted some of the ones you picked to be for utility instead of combat. And you keep wanting to cast the same good combat utterance on the BBEG, because it has a one round duration. Arrrgh.

One last very important note: Make sure you get the Universal Aptitude Utterance (Level 1 Evolving Mind) at a very early level and use it on yourself before every tough fight, ever. It gives you an additional non-cheesy +5 unnamed bonus to your Truespeak checks. Pure amazingness.

So, Truenamers are tough to use, and can't win by themselves like wizards. But they're not as ridiculously weak as your first-glance number crunching seemed to indicate.

Kyeudo
2007-08-12, 08:46 PM
Browsing around on the Wizards forums, I found the suggested fix of 15 + the creature's CR + (2 x Utterance Level), which reduces the DC of using a level 6 Utterance on the level 20 BBEG by 8.

This beats my origional fix of 20+ creature's CR, at least in my opinion. My fix let optimized truenamers achieve free sucesses.

Fizban
2007-08-13, 01:33 AM
As has been stated, the CRx2 rule is meant to counter the fact that skill boosting items and magic are cheap. So, if you want to use a simple 1 to 1 CR/DC ratio, then you need to remove the magic skill bonuses from truespeach. Simply add another law (two laws suck anyway, stuff should be in threes) that states that mortal magic cannot grant truespeaking skill (read: nothing except skill focus and maybe that utterance someone mentioned). Then go with one of the above suggestions such as 15+CR, 20+CR, 15+CR+utterance level, or whatever.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 01:38 AM
What if you give Truenamers a competence bonus to Truespeak checks equal to their Truenamer level? This makes it just as hard to use Utterances via feats, but lets the class whip out Utterances with regularity.

Thoughts?

EDIT- Assuming you don't have access to magic items that boost Truespeak.
EDITX2- I don't think that matters, since magic items are also competence, IIRC.
EDITX3- Another thought. What if you allow the Truespeaker to mitigate the Law of Resistance using a second stat?
EX. A truenamers first X uses of an utterance don't increase the DC. X is equal to say, his charisma modifier (they want charisma for talking skills, right?).

Kel_Arath
2007-08-13, 02:38 AM
Personaly I think that would make them very very overpowered.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-13, 03:38 AM
Personaly I think that would make them very very overpowered.

I really don't see how the utterances are that strong. You could probably get away with being able to use them at will.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-13, 08:34 AM
Is there any reason ever to use a personal true name, after all the truename takes time and energy to research and all it does is increase the DC by 2 for the save and for the truespeak check? Or am I missing something here

Kyeudo
2007-08-13, 12:43 PM
Learning a person's personal truename takes so much game time as to be pointless. Its a 10% chance of extra sucess if you suceed on the check, but the check is 10% less likely to succed and required you to spend 5 or 6 weeks and alot of cash researching it. I'd rather just use utterances that don't require a saving throw.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-13, 12:52 PM
A Truenamer should get Quicken Truename as soon as he can: you are likely to fail your truenames: might as well get 2 trys. If it works, than all the better.

Kyeudo
2007-08-15, 03:43 PM
Quicken Utterance sucks! +20 to the check DC makes it an auto fail. I'd rather take enlarge utterance and at least be able to make my check.