World of Darkness: Any good?

[Were-Sandwich]

I picked up a few WoD demo-games at Free RPg day, and have been considering buying one of the full rulebooks (Either Mage: The Awakening or Scion: Hero). I would like to know whether its worth buying them (Good system, intruiging plot etc). I probably won't end up using the background to its full doom-and-gloom effect, becuase my group isn't very good at maintaining seriousness for very long, but I still think I could run an enjoyable game with it.

[Fax Celestis]

It's a rather solid system as long as your players don't actively attempt to exploit it. I will state, though, that you need need NEED the WoD Corebook to run anything.

[Quietus]

I touched on it years ago, when it was the old world of darkness - they've since upgraded to new. When I was looking at it, though, it seemed a lot of fun, and spawned one of my more entertaining character ideas. It had a nice modern, gritty feel to it with a little superhumanism at the cost of being set apart from your peers and feeling like an outsider... yeah, I liked Hunter : The Reckoning. So sue me.

[Cubey]

Mage: the Ascension had much better flavour than Awakening. The whole idea of mages being "chosen" by higher powers, and magic coming from Atlantis... bleh...

Anyway, I still like Mages most from the WoD cast. They are far less emo than "nobody loves me because I am an outsider, and my efforts are DOOMED to fail!" vampires and werewolves.

[UserClone]

Ever tried Demon: The Fallen? It puts a new twist on some very well known Biblical tales and flips Christendom on its head, pitting the PC "good guy(ish)" demon-posessing-human-form-types against EVIL-demon-posessing-etc. One of the coolest RPGs I've ever owned, personally, however, anyone remotely Christian might not like it if they/the group take the backstory too seriously.

[captain_decadence]

Actually, Demon doesn't really touch on Christendom. It never really says anything about Jesus (kinda the big man in Christianity). It deals mostly with the first chapter of genesis, really. But whatever, it's controversial to some.

I like the world of darkness but you need to make sure that you buy the right books. If you play New World of Darkness, make sure you are buying the new books and not the Old World of Darkness books. While the story ideas can work well and can be carried over, the rules don't match.

I like World of Darkness (truthfully, better than D&D) but I'm really big into houseruling it, changing things around and surprising players. People who play world of darkness tend to know the games, so its hard to surprise them without changing things up.

[Skjaldbakka]

Mage: the Ascension had much better flavour than Awakening. The whole idea of mages being "chosen" by higher powers, and magic coming from Atlantis... bleh...

Ascension may have had better flavor, but the system in Awakening is better by a few orders of magnitude.

[captain_decadence]

Ascension may have had better flavor, but the system in Awakening is better by a few orders of magnitude.

Oh yeah, Ascension has a great storyline (I have neither great like nor dislike for the Awakening backstory) but its system is problematic at best. I never liked it.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh yeah, Ascension has a great storyline (I have neither great like nor dislike for the Awakening backstory) but its system is problematic at best. I never liked it.

At best. At worst, it was "I can kill werewolves from ninety meters with pennies, and they don't even know it's coming. Oh, and I'm invisible."

[MrNexx]

But, dammit, vampires should become lawn chairs.

What got even more annoying, to me, was the lame attempts to fix the problems. "Yeah, mages literally rewrite reality with their minds... but werewolves can stop it by expending Gnosis."

[Fax Celestis]

But, dammit, vampires should become lawn chairs.

What got even more annoying, to me, was the lame attempts to fix the problems. "Yeah, mages literally rewrite reality with their minds... but werewolves can stop it by expending Gnosis."

Or the Rule Of Four!

Four mortals are an equal match for one vampire.
Four vampires are an equal match for one werewolf.
Four werewolves are an equal match for one mage.
Four mages are an equal match for one demon.

[HidaTsuzua]

Both old and new WoD games do have a problem with lack of defenses which quickly leads to a strike first strike last combat design. While it isn't all about the combat, the fact that it quickly becomes trivial to take out people in combat should be kept in mind. Also remove their drug rules! You'll either get celerity for free crack fiends or alcoholic faces.

nWOD has a big emphasis on ethic systems. These ethic systems while having guidelines have the same problems the humanity of oWoD had. On the bright side, I think causal murder is now worse than property damage on the hierarchy of sins.

[Faramir]

I've only run one of the "old" games (Werewolf The Apocalypse). The basic system is one of the most elegant I've seen and I like it a lot. But it's not easily adapted for play outside their settings unless you know it quite well and are willing to put some work into it. Even within the settings there's a lot you'll have to houserule, especially if you want to run Mage.

But the whole system of attribute+ability rolls is sheer genius and all the possible permutations make it unlikely that anyone will be running any two characters remotely similar to each other.

And take my word for it, there's room for humor in a WoD setting. One of my players was always complaining about the darkness of the world setting but he'd laugh as much as anyone when encountering one of my NPC Silver Fangs (I modeled almost all of their personalities on Georgette Heyer characters). Then there was the time they were trying to unravel a complicated mess involving a new Pentex factory being built in Utica, NY and were pleased when they identified some local Sabbat and sent a spirit to spy on them. That is until they realized they were spying on a meeting where the Sabbat were themselves desperately trying to figure out what the heck had been going on in Utica ever since the PCs showed up.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

You want WoD at it's best and worst? Sit in on a Cam session. It's part day care, part soap opera, and all LARP. :smalltongue:

[Skjaldbakka]

I haven't seen too many characters that have any real chance of one-shot splatting someone. Although I have looked at ways to do it in Mage. There are even a few that my Cam mage could pull off.

[HidaTsuzua]

That's odd. The keys to success depends on if it's old or new and the game. Vampire boils down to celerity (remember kids crack gives you +1!) and intelligent dice pool splitting. nWoD has an issue with defense being so much harder to effectively pull off.

You should almost certainly change the character point costs and XP costs for the game. They aren't balanced well so you know what to stock up on depending on how long you think the game will be. Maxing and/or hitting "good enough" points is almost always the best.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

There is currently an uproar going on in Vamp Cam right now. A member from here went and slaughtered 50+/- vamps in Arizona. Five zero. Solo. That's a metric ton of PC deaths.

[Skjaldbakka]

You should almost certainly change the character point costs and XP costs for the game. They aren't balanced well so you know what to stock up on depending on how long you think the game will be. Maxing and/or hitting "good enough" points is almost always the best.

It doens't really need changed at all. WoD isn't a dungeon crawl. It also isn't a party. WoD is an interactive story. My last game (as a player) had most of the plot generated by the players, with the storyteller just sitting back and watching the show (as well as adjudicating). He was everyone we interacted with other than the party, but it was the 'party' interacting with one another that made the game.

Actually most of the game, from my perspective, was trying to murder one of the PCs who became a vampire- and thus evil (from his POV). That and the ramifications of throwing a vampire into the 'magic space refrigerator'.

[Goober4473]

I'm a big fan of the old World of Darkness. Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension, and Demon: the Fallen, primalrily. Especially Demon. The old system lacked consistency though. Each setting conflicted in setting and rules, but with a little thought they play nice together.

The new World of Darkness is pretty cool. The system is faster, and concise, but I miss the old initiative system, and dodge, block, and parry as actions. It added a lot of realism. The new settings look solid, but they haven't brought back Demon, and the new Mages are... Well, I'd rather just play D&D. They're not unique anymore. They're just sort of spellcasters. Certainly a good setting, with lots of good points, but it's just not differant enough for me. I haven't looked too much into Vampire or Werewolf, but it looks like the setting are mostly just like they used to be, only differant in most ways. Kind of an update for the sake of an update. A change for the sake of selling new books.

The new system looks worth playing, but I'll personally stick with what I love. Complicated initiative system and mages that aren't really mages, but rather forcing their will on reality, with the reality collectively created by the whole world pushing back. Not to mention demons.

[Cyrano]

I'd just like to note the primary diff between DnD and WoD. DnD is a game that has elements of a story. WoD is a story that has elements of the game. Dnd's cardinal rule is "Anything goes, as long as the mechanics allow it". WoD's is "If the mechanics don't allow it, change it." It requires more creativity, more mature players, and more effort. And it is far, far better for intelectual stimulation, for storytelling skills, for plain fun.

[Skjaldbakka]

I really didn't like the oWoD tabletop system. I only played tabletop once, and I got killed on a technicality. The combat system is very unfriendly to new players in oWoD. nWoD, the combat system is more intuitive.

[Thanatos 51-50]

yeah, I liked Hunter : The Reckoning. So sue me.

As soon as they come out with Hunter for nWoD, I'm buying.
I was always a fan of being the vastly underpowered Hunter in the WoD as opposed to the souped-up Mage, Werewolf, or Vampire.

As a side note: Quietus... heh. Assamites.:smallbiggrin:
This is why I play rogues without UMD. Playing underpowered, completely mundane skilljockies are FUN.

[Fax Celestis]

The oWoD combat system isn't friendly, period, due to the "ones subtract" mechanic that thankfully is no longer present in nWoD. It actually got easier to fail when you had more dice.

[Yithian]

I enjoy World of Darkness as it is a neat and simple system. There are some fairly powerful merits (Combat Marksmanship *****, not overpowered, as it takes a lot to get it to work, but can cut down enemies quickly), but all in all it is a very worthwhile game. Due to the simplicity, most of the books are really cool fluff and stories, which is a nice change from DnD.

My personal preference is Vampire, but Werewolf and Mage are cool too. Promethean is amazing if DM'ed well, but makes cross-over chronicles impossible, which is unfortunate.

Much of the system deals with morality and the true nature of good and evil, which is an interesting role playing angle.

Although I can not speak for old WoD, but new WoD has some great products, and Changeling looks like it's going to be incredible.

Yithian

Edit: lousy wording

[EndgamerAzari]

nWoD is fun in my experience, as long as you don't have a melodramatic, rage-driven storyteller who wants to vent his real-life frustrations on your characters.

Edit: Though I guess that really goes for any system.

[Skjaldbakka]

Promethean is amazing if DM'ed well, but makes cross-over chronicles impossible, which is unfortunate.

And yet, there is a Cam venue. Who thought that was a good idea?!

[Were-Sandwich]

This morality and stuff sounds a little...heavy for my group. Their only real RPG experience is D&D hack-and-slash. I'll still buy it though. Maybe there'll be some more matur players when I hit college.

[Skjaldbakka]

There is a strong focus on degeneration. Ben (my character) started the campaign as a college student on an Eagle Scout scholarship (morality 7 mortal). By the end, he had become the monster he had been fighting (wisdom 2 Mage by the end of the campaign, and I had bought it up a couple times).

Of course, a mage with Pride as his main Vice isn't likely to do well against his own hubris.

[Xuincherguixe]

I've heard good things about it as a System, but that there's a lot of angst that's pretty hard to escape from.

Angst isn't even necessarily a bad thing, it's just that frankly I'm more interested in cutting other people.

Also as I see it, everyone should get a chance to vent their frustrations ^_^. That's at least half the fun right there. Don't tell me none of you want to turn that evangelist into a vampire just so he doesn't die while you do all sorts of mean things to him.


All being said though I'm rather twisted, and I can understand that not everyone wants to be murderific. It's bad to have the whole game prescribed. And it'd probably get old fast, "I hate my unlife. I want to leap off this buildin." "My unlife is worse! I want to leap off a taller building!"... Okay that's actually kind of funny but my statement stands. Variety for the win.


Also, apologies if I offended anyone. Depression is a serious issue and while I poke fun, I am not trying to demean anyone.

[Were-Sandwich]

Hmmm. I'm torn between my desire to own L337 gamez and my promise to myself not to buy any more stuff I will never use. Stupid monster books.

[Skjaldbakka]

The games deals with wrestling with morality, not necessarily angst. Even a Vampire game isn't necessarily about angst. It is more about a political struggle. It is just lends itself well to angst. Mage is about being able to do anything, while at the same time trying not to give into your own hubris.

Werewolf is about beating the hell out of things. Mostly to keep territory.

Pretty much boils down to:

Mage: We're arrogant!
Vampire: We're treachorous!
Werewolf: We're angry!
Mortals: We're Screwed!

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Pretty much it. Of course, Mages CAN afford to be arrogant. One could violate a pack of wolves and a vamp kiss at the same time before eating breakfast.

[Skjaldbakka]

Only if they have a plan. Mages pretty much suck at improv. They need to know what they are facing, and have time to extend cast the right spells. If a mage walks in on a bunch of werewolves expecting a bunch of vamps, he's toast. They are still the most squishy of the three.

[Damionte]

Good plot/story. Bad actual game. You could take the same game, and convert it to Gurps or Hero system and have a much easier time of it. Well at least your playeras will.

[Thanatos 51-50]

All being said though I'm rather twisted, and I can understand that not everyone wants to be murderific. It's bad to have the whole game prescribed. And it'd probably get old fast, "I hate my unlife. I want to leap off this buildin." "My unlife is worse! I want to leap off a taller building!"... Okay that's actually kind of funny but my statement stands. Variety for the win.

Those situations only happend when Vampire becomes played completely by Mopey Goth Kids. Personally, heres how I play(ed).

The three assamites have received the same call for the same job, and recognize each other as clan mates immediately upon each's entering the Flaming Flamingo (All the bars had names like that - The Hole - The Pyromaniac Penguin, The fiery falcon, the Hot Hawk, et. cetera. The Hole really really smelled bad.)

A-mite 1: Wait, why am I working with them?
A-mite 2: I try and get in touch with my so-powerful-hes-banned-from-being-a-PC-sire and gather intel.

Me: Guy one is a jerk, guy two is powerful. I brood in the corner until an opportune moment to stab either arrives, at which point I celerity and attack him. From there I cut his head off. Regardless of success or failure in the head-cutting-offness, this place is gunna burn.
Like H*** I'm splitting the money.

[Skjaldbakka]

Good plot/story. Bad actual game. You could take the same game, and convert it to Gurps or Hero system and have a much easier time of it. Well at least your playeras will.

What part of the game exactly is bad? The system is the best system for the type of game it is.

[Xuincherguixe]

thanatos, while hilarious, that sounds awfully like a bit too much inter player conflict for my taste.

I think I can understand why the places have names like that. They all know they're going up in flames so they may as well just accept it and get good insurance.

[Thanatos 51-50]

thanatos, while hilarious, that sounds awfully like a bit too much inter player conflict for my taste.

I think I can understand why the places have names like that. They all know they're going up in flames so they may as well just accept it and get good insurance.

Served them right for letting me stumble through character creation unassisted. Everyone else was a vet, I was a newbie.

Also, an Angry Goth Teen.
Hilarity ensued when a separate character, who had a phobia of fire, interrupts power-boy's attempts to burn down the place (Using really large amounts of really strong alcohol and a cigarette) by running into the back room and meeting a guy who made Crucifixion look like a boo-boo.
Oddly enough, this caused the plot to go forward.

[DeathQuaker]

Ascension may have had better flavor, but the system in Awakening is better by a few orders of magnitude.

Really?!? I can't comment on Awakening from personal experience, but a group of my friends just canned an Awakening game--one that had been going on for awhile--because, according to them, the inconsistencies and vagaries in the spellcasting system just got too much for them to bear. These are all seasoned gamers, all very familiar with other White Wolf games (including Ascension), and they gave up on it because it was causing more argument and confusion than actual opportunities to game.

Ascension's magic system -- 2nd edition or 3rd edition -- worked just fine for me when I ran a couple short campaigns for the game. It is very flexible but a good GM knows how to keep the cheese from happening, and Paradox generally keeps the really ridiculous stuff at bay (or at least make them have very amusing consequences).


As soon as they come out with Hunter for nWoD, I'm buying. I was always a fan of being the vastly underpowered Hunter in the WoD as opposed to the souped-up Mage, Werewolf, or Vampire.

Hunters as in Reckoning Type Hunters had supernatural powers... and could give another supernatural a good run for their money. They weren't "vastly underpowered" by any means. The rough nWoD equivalent to "Reckoning" Hunters (i.e. "the Imbued") is Scion, I believe.

If you want to play a normal human being trying to deal with the supernatural world in the new WoD, all you need is the main book.

[Xuincherguixe]

Moving the plot forward makes that even more hilarious than it already was.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Hunters as in Reckoning Type Hunters had supernatural powers... and could give another supernatural a good run for their money. They weren't "vastly underpowered" by any means. The rough nWoD equivalent to "Reckoning" Hunters (i.e. "the Imbued") is Scion, I believe.

If you want to play a normal human being trying to deal with the supernatural world in the new WoD, all you need is the main book.

Hrm, I'll have too look into Scion, then.
Also of note: Edges only got really powerful at around level four or five. My personal favorite edge was "Blaze" which turned any light source into an aggravated damage source. Interestingly enough, only those who were on the path of "Innocence" could take this Edge. the only other decent Innocence edge was Hide. And that one was one dot.

Comeing in for a close second on awesome Edge was that Visionary one where they re-grew lost limbs and stuff. that one is awesomesauce.

[Moonchill]

Ascension's magic system -- 2nd edition or 3rd edition -- worked just fine for me when I ran a couple short campaigns for the game. It is very flexible but a good GM knows how to keep the cheese from happening, and Paradox generally keeps the really ridiculous stuff at bay (or at least make them have very amusing consequences).

Indeed. Or as my DM explained it: "reality packs a punch".

Its fun if you can teleport by opening a door and appear somewhere else.. less fun when you come out of a cleaning closet and someone is there to witness you do it..


Hunters as in Reckoning Type Hunters had supernatural powers... and could give another supernatural a good run for their money. They weren't "vastly underpowered" by any means. The rough nWoD equivalent to "Reckoning" Hunters (i.e. "the Imbued") is Scion, I believe.

If you want to play a normal human being trying to deal with the supernatural world in the new WoD, all you need is the main book.

Which is, atleast in my eyes, the most fun if you do it with a group that is new to WoD and don't know what the hell is going on. Or, you can mix in some other systems.

One book I love (and sadly, haven't used yet) is Mysterious Places (I think its this one, don't have access to them atm). The plots are extremely well thought off, and quite nice if you like horror kind of stories.

[....]

I was pissed when Hunter: The Reconing came out for oWoD and I hope it never comes out for nWoD.

We started playing hunters before Reckoning came out, just a normal humans. It was hard as hell and all of us eventually got killed after we offed the prince of New Orleans. The Cam sent in fifteen or so Bruja/Gangrel at us.

But it was fun. The first time we brought down a werewolf all of us were literally high-fiving around the table.

In the nWoD we're starting up another game of hunters, easier now that they have more stuff for normal humans.

Reconing made the 'mortal hunters' supernatural. While it was a pretty fun game, it took out what made being a regular hunter fun; having to out-think and out-plan your foes. And when things went wrong, panicing, running, and preforming crazy things to try to survive.

[Chaos Perfected]

Yeah, if you want superpowered hunters, make them ghouls, skinchangers, or use Second Sight.

[HidaTsuzua]

I'd just like to note the primary diff between DnD and WoD. DnD is a game that has elements of a story. WoD is a story that has elements of the game. Dnd's cardinal rule is "Anything goes, as long as the mechanics allow it". WoD's is "If the mechanics don't allow it, change it." It requires more creativity, more mature players, and more effort. And it is far, far better for intelectual stimulation, for storytelling skills, for plain fun.

Actually I'll go with WOD "You'll have to change mechanics all the time because they didn't even bother to think about rules." It becomes a huge problem because the rules don't lead into the setting. That's why Hero is better. You can set up the rules for the setting instead of reading Anne Rice novels.

I'll do nWoD Vampire first. For example, there aren't vampires in Washington DC. Why? Because of the fact traffic or minor delays can cause berserk rages. Sure, if they have a good willpower the chance is low. However in DC, there's traffic every night. Or they'll have to wait in the dentist. All they have to do is fail once. Once that happens, it's vampires tearing up cars or the waiting room.

A really bad example is how did Vampire survive till the invention of the light bulb? They don't naturally see any better in the dark than humans. And must roll to resist running away from fire. So basically vampires had to hunt taking darkness penalties, running away like madmen, or lucking out and getting close to the fire.

An argument can be made that the abosulate ruler system doesn't make sense consider the independence a vampire can make his life. But that'll require a longer debate.

Werewolf has issues too. First off I want to make a sniper werewolf (doesn't matter why). So I increase my firearms, dexterity and equipment so I can roll well. Good right? Well maybe. Why? Because a critical hit (4+ success) makes a werewolf go berserk. So you should make sure you don't get a critical hit. So you have to calculate the chances of getting a critical hit which requires a lot of analysis.

Also in Werewolf, you have wells of magical power (I forget what they're called I think demesne). A demesne has a type (often an emotion) and gets its power from this. So there are two ways to get rid of a demesne. One is a long and complicated chain of events that removed the demesne (a demesne of sadness defeated by a "be happy" concert for example). The other option is pulling out a werewolf straw and sucking it dry (you burn the excess energy with shapechanging). This can be done in minutes depending on the strength of the demesne. This makes demesne guarding hard since it can be removed in 5 minutes by a bunch of werewolves. Also why bother with the first method? Just suck it dry. What's even worse is all of this information is on the same page. So you have a section that basically boiled down to "ignore this for the other faster, easier, and more certain method."

Harmony in Werewolf is both good and bad. It's good since it isn't stupidly crippling as it could have been. It's bad because it doesn't condone a werewolf lifestyle. What's an easy way to have lots of Harmony? You and your pack go to the office and work in accounting. Every weekend you run around as wolves. You make the fax machine your demesne. You'll have a source of magical power and a harmony of 8 (since you're eating food you didn't catch). Really the only way to lose harmony by accident is to kill werewolves while raging (which is easier than you'll think). This is because the "bad" werewolves (i.e. the NPC werewolf group) don't have harmony. So they try to kill you all the time. Since werewolves go berserk at the drop of a hat, you'll likely kill these guys. So keep that in mind. Fight too many of these guys and you'll have to pee all over the place.

Now you can change these and other rules. But shouldn't have to such a degree. It'll lead to debates (nothing wrong with a good mature debate, but shouldn't happen all the time) and weirdness in game. Good rules lead to better games since you don't have to make the game work just to walk down the street.

[Were-Sandwich]

The Cam? 10 characters.

[Morty]

I guess it means Camarilla.
After finding some hilarious parody of WoD, I wanted to play it myself, but I have no idea which setting to play, and which WoD(old or new) is better.

[Green Bean]

I guess it means Camarilla.
After finding some hilarious parody of WoD, I wanted to play it myself, but I have no idea which setting to play, and which WoD(old or new) is better.

A parody? Could you link it?

[Morty]

A parody? Could you link it?

Heh. If you speak Polish, here. (http://nihilism.w.interia.pl/):smalltongue: I don't know if it's playable, but it made me find one good site about Vampire.

[MrNexx]

I blame the original World of Darkness for the sucktitude of my gaming group in later days.

After playing Vampire for a while (their game of choice in WoD), every session of any game became a matter of backstabbing and intraparty politics. The game where the supposedly good knight murdered the cleric of Ilmater and hid his body? After the vampire game. Closest we got to intra-party strife before that was mocking a cleric of Helm who was a prat.

[Green Bean]

Heh. If you speak Polish, here. (http://nihilism.w.interia.pl/):smalltongue: I don't know if it's playable, but it made me find one good site about Vampire.

Thanks for the link, but alas, the Canadian public school system is infamous for the lack of support in its Polish language classes. :smallbiggrin:

[Were-Sandwich]

Hmmm. Sounds like I need to get the idea of this 'plot' thing into their heads first.

[Matthew]

I'd just like to note the primary diff between DnD and WoD. DnD is a game that has elements of a story. WoD is a story that has elements of the game. Dnd's cardinal rule is "Anything goes, as long as the mechanics allow it". WoD's is "If the mechanics don't allow it, change it." It requires more creativity, more mature players, and more effort. And it is far, far better for intelectual stimulation, for storytelling skills, for plain fun.

I wonder about this. I'm pretty certain this comes down to playstyle over system. WoD perhaps encourages this playstyle to a greater degree than D&D.

[Wolfgang]

Hunters as in Reckoning Type Hunters had supernatural powers... and could give another supernatural a good run for their money. They weren't "vastly underpowered" by any means. The rough nWoD equivalent to "Reckoning" Hunters (i.e. "the Imbued") is Scion, I believe.


It is a very rough equivalent. Scion is not set in the World of Darkness, it uses a different system with different attributes, skills, rolling mechanics, etc., and its characters are extremely powerful (almost Exalted level). About the only thing they have in common is being given strength by more powerful beings to help them fight something. Who gives the power, why, and what the chosen do with it are almost polar opposites in the two games.

If you want to play the Imbued, get the new Core and Second Sight, then give your mortals a Herald-like source for the abilities contained in the latter.

Personally, I prefer my hunters to be completely powerless, in the supernatural sense. Normal people who win through meticulous planning and conviction (lower case) instead of tons of magic extra actions are almost always more compelling main characters.

[Ruerl]

The games deals with wrestling with morality, not necessarily angst. Even a Vampire game isn't necessarily about angst. It is more about a political struggle. It is just lends itself well to angst. Mage is about being able to do anything, while at the same time trying not to give into your own hubris.

Werewolf is about beating the hell out of things. Mostly to keep territory.

Pretty much boils down to:

Mage: We're arrogant!
Vampire: We're treachorous!
Werewolf: We're angry!
Mortals: We're Screwed!

You forgot exalted: We're gods! Oh no the responsebilities lets kill some mortals! Okay, perhaps not so exstreme, but there is a reason that the Dragonblooded rose and cast down the Solar's wich spawned the abyssal exalted as the champions of the deathlords not to forget the role the sidereals had in all this buisness.

the Exalted system can be pretty advanced at times though.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I want the Cam to take Abbarant (sp) under it's wing. It's like playing City of Heroes, only way before it. Toten's a punk bass though. I want to see if I could take him down.

[Skjaldbakka]

You forgot exalted: We're gods! Oh no the responsebilities lets kill some mortals! Okay, perhaps not so exstreme, but there is a reason that the Dragonblooded rose and cast down the Solar's wich spawned the abyssal exalted as the champions of the deathlords not to forget the role the sidereals had in all this buisness.

No, I didn't forget Exalted. Exalted is NOT World of Darkness. Exalted is a White Wolf product. Saying Exalted is WoD is like saying Star Wars is D&D.

[technophile]

I wish I still had my oWoD sourcebooks. I loved Werewolf: The Apocalypse, the flavor was just great. V:tM was good too.

I wonder if my brother still has those books... I should steal them back. :)

[Skjaldbakka]

Actually I'll go with WOD "You'll have to change mechanics all the time because they didn't even bother to think about rules." It becomes a huge problem because the rules don't lead into the setting. That's why Hero is better. You can set up the rules for the setting instead of reading Anne Rice novels.

Being an experience WOD player and storyteller (that's storyteller, not GameMaster, btw), I disagree. I've never had to make any significant changes to WoD. As opposed to Hero, which REQUIRES you sit down and re-write the game before you can start. What WoD needs is mature players, who can actually put themselves into their character's shoes. Now, WoD has its share of bad players that read Anne Rice novels and want to play vampires that cut themself- but that ain't a problem with the system, its a problem with those kind of players.

Those kind of players are just as likely to play mopey angst-ridden characters in HERO or D&D as well.

Side note on the demense issue you brought up. The demesne that most werewolves would really want to destroy would have tainted essence, which would be very bad to deal with using the 'werewolf straw' technique. It is just the sort of tactic a cub might try though- he wouldn't necessarily know any better than not to do that.

[Damionte]

Originally Posted by D'anna Biers
I'd just like to note the primary diff between DnD and WoD. DnD is a game that has elements of a story. WoD is a story that has elements of the game. Dnd's cardinal rule is "Anything goes, as long as the mechanics allow it". WoD's is "If the mechanics don't allow it, change it." It requires more creativity, more mature players, and more effort. And it is far, far better for intelectual stimulation, for storytelling skills, for plain fun.

Yeah that's not very accurate at all.

D&D you can do anything that's coded, which is a lot of things. If you find something not coded make up your own rule. If you don't liek the way somethign is coded change it. These systems work because even with a half ass game master you can still play the game. Since you can always fall abck on the default rules when a conflict come up.

A lot of the White Wolf games are too vaugue. For example....


.............. a group of my friends just canned an Awakening game--one that had been going on for awhile--because, according to them, the inconsistencies and vagaries in the spellcasting system just got too much for them to bear. These are all seasoned gamers, all very familiar with other White Wolf games (including Ascension), and they gave up on it because it was causing more argument and confusion than actual opportunities to game.

All of the white wolf groups I've been in have broken up over this same issue. The rules of the game are not precise enough in and of themselves to stamp out enough arguments to keep the games going. We were stopping too often to argue about what a player or NPC can or can not do. Too much contorl in the hands of the GM. Combined with avg to mediocre game masters and strong willed players means the game will be unplayable too often.

It's not an accident that time and again the players keep revolving back to D&D. Yes it was one of the first but if soemthign better really had come along epopel would have move on to that better game. It's why D&D is the base game and everything else on the market is a nitch.

[Kiero]

Hate the storytell(er/ing) system, something annoying about rolling fistfuls of d10s for little effect. Not so keen on the two-book model either; instead of one corebook now there's the nWoD core, plus the core for whatever game you're playing.

I liked Ascension and that's about it. Didn't like Revised, though.

[Yithian]

Hate the storytell(er/ing) system, something annoying about rolling fistfuls of d10s for little effect. Not so keen on the two-book model either; instead of one corebook now there's the nWoD core, plus the core for whatever game you're playing.

I liked Ascension and that's about it. Didn't like Revised, though.

Although I can see what you are saying, I do not think that that is a weakness.

First of all, DnD is not so different. You certainly need the PHB, you need the DMG 95% of the time, since it contains PrC's, items, and many other useful things. It is often handy to have the MM if you hope to ever use polymorph and other spells, OR take monster feats. Unless you are home brewing a setting you also need a Campaign Setting book (more applicable to DM's, but still). That is 2 books in most cases (PhB, DMG), to four books + whatever splatbooks you want. For WoD, there is the core book + supernatural book. Most books even have a setting in them already.

Another strength of the system is the lack of redundant material. Books can only be so long, and I would like the supernatural books to be more oriented toward the creature in question, rather than retelling the core rules applicable to everyone.

Finally, you do not NEED to play supernatural chronicles. You can have a perfectly good mortal game if all you have is the core book, with nothing else. In DnD, you a group needs at least one copy of each of the three core books.

[Skjaldbakka]

The storytelling system isn't for everyone. If your group argues about the rules- WoD is a bad idea. The focus on WoD isn't and shouldn't be on the rules. I would disagree that they are vague- I have yet to have a problem with finding rules for something, and picking a relevent pair of Attribute + Skill for a given task is hardly rocket surgery/brain science.

An interesting point with WoD that I would like to make. The best WoD sessions I have played involved 0 dice rolls. When I play a vampire LARP, I consider a successful session if I didn't throw any tests.

The emphasis is that strongly on the roleplaying in WoD. Except for werewolf. Werewolf is about beating the hell out of things - it comes closest to the D&D model of 'a party fights bad guys while furthering plot and acquiring power'.

[Jarlax]

i appreciate WoD Core because its system allows for a lot of on the fly homebrew, everything is resolved in D10's and every modifier can only either give or take D10's so anything your players want can be made with a quick decision of how many D10's than thing will be worth.

thats why my next survival horror setting game will be using WoD, i know my players will be creative in how they get things done and WoD rules will let me accommodate them, and i don't want them to lose XP by avoiding or running from combat, which i expect them to do as often as possible because the WoD version of HP in this setting means they cant afford to sit on their butts for a week if they really hurt themselves. instead as long as they show up and learn something new about the mystery around them they get the same number of points every session.

[HidaTsuzua]

Side note on the demense issue you brought up. The demesne that most werewolves would really want to destroy would have tainted essence, which would be very bad to deal with using the 'werewolf straw' technique. It is just the sort of tactic a cub might try though- he wouldn't necessarily know any better than not to do that.

We thought that too. But it goes down all the same to a werewolf. Anyways it's burned insanely fast since you need action of a suck is to get rid of it. I honestly don't know how you could play a WoD game without actually not reading the book or not caring at all. I've found it takes a rework no matter what I pick up so why not use HERO which is a better system especially for powers?

[Skjaldbakka]

We thought that too. But it goes down all the same to a werewolf. Anyways it's burned insanely fast since you need action of a suck is to get rid of it. I honestly don't know how you could play a WoD game without actually not reading the book or not caring at all. I've found it takes a rework no matter what I pick up so why not use HERO which is a better system especially for powers?

No. It doesn't. A werewolf that sucks down tainted essence will become tainted. Werewolves are half spirit. Spirits take on the resonance of the essence they consume, regardless of how fast they spend it. Its the same for werewolves, just slower.

Maybe this isn't intuitive from giving the book a cursory glance, but I tend to play characters in both Werewolf the Forsaken and Mage the Awakening that focus on dealing with spirits- so I am somewhat more well-read on the source material that even most storytellers I know.


And you've found WoD needs a rework. There is somewhat of a thriving WoD community in my town, and I have yet to come across anyone who's even needed to make a houserule.

Also, HERO is in no way a better system. HERO is a different system. It has its own downfalls. As does WoD, as does D&D, as does any other system. Personally, I think HERO takes too much work to be worth playing, much less trying to run a game of. WoD is plug and play (not that I haven't spent the better part of 12 hours making a WoD character- but that was mostly backstory- the character stats were done in 15-20 minutes).

[HidaTsuzua]

No. It doesn't. A werewolf that sucks down tainted essence will become tainted. Werewolves are half spirit. Spirits take on the resonance of the essence they consume, regardless of how fast they spend it. Its the same for werewolves, just slower.


Yes werewolves are half-spirit, but they aren't a spirit. They don't get all the cool spirit tools only some of them. Also how do figure out when a werewolf becomes tainted? How much pain juju does I have to suck? Does this mean if I make of demense of pwn (using a statue of Chuck Norris), I'll pwn? Now this could come down to interpretation which are house rules. There isn't anything wrong with house rules, but I've found the WoD game to require far too many for things I shouldn't have to.

As for Hero, I'll rescind about it being a better system than WoD. I will still state however that WoD doesn't do well for what it tries to do. All of the WoD games I've seen/played/hear have had problems (even with very excellent GMs and players) that basically boiled down to problems with the rules. To be fair, I've seen lots of non-WoD that have had rules problems (including a few Hero games) but considering how often it comes up, I don't think they're worth the money.

My suggestion:
Make a lot of attributes and skills.
The system is attribute + skills number of d10s, every die that's N+ is a success.
That done, Use this to make your setting. (http://criticalmiss.com/issue7/howtowriteagame2.html)

[Skjaldbakka]

I will still state however that WoD doesn't do well for what it tries to do.

I disagree. WoD is the best system for its setting. Given that I like this game, and you don't, I think its safe to say that I have seen/played/heard about more games than you, and I have not experienced the problems you describe. It is likely that they have been good GMs, but bad storytellers. If the game broke up because of rules issues, I would have to say that they were bad Storytellers.

I would recommend that you read the Predators book to get more info on spirit lore in WoD, but you don't like the setting, so that would be pointless.



There isn't anything wrong with house rules, but I've found the WoD game to require far too many for things I shouldn't have to.

And yet, you advocate a system for which you would have to build it yourself. WoD is the best system for WoD.

[Tokiko Mima]

The oWoD combat system isn't friendly, period, due to the "ones subtract" mechanic that thankfully is no longer present in nWoD. It actually got easier to fail when you had more dice.

Yeah! I remember constructing a table on that, so I knew how many Dice to throw in when I had a certain number to beat. That way the odds of 1's coming up wasn't greater than the odds of success, like it would have been if I threw out the max number of dice everytime. Always thought that mechanic was a little nutty.

Has anyone tried using the old WoD fluff with the new WoD rules?

[Kiero]

Although I can see what you are saying, I do not think that that is a weakness.

First of all, DnD is not so different. You certainly need the PHB, you need the DMG 95% of the time, since it contains PrC's, items, and many other useful things. It is often handy to have the MM if you hope to ever use polymorph and other spells, OR take monster feats. Unless you are home brewing a setting you also need a Campaign Setting book (more applicable to DM's, but still). That is 2 books in most cases (PhB, DMG), to four books + whatever splatbooks you want. For WoD, there is the core book + supernatural book. Most books even have a setting in them already.

Another strength of the system is the lack of redundant material. Books can only be so long, and I would like the supernatural books to be more oriented toward the creature in question, rather than retelling the core rules applicable to everyone.

Finally, you do not NEED to play supernatural chronicles. You can have a perfectly good mortal game if all you have is the core book, with nothing else. In DnD, you a group needs at least one copy of each of the three core books.

I'm not keen on D&D's three book model either. I like everything in just one core, like Feng Shui or Angel/Buffy. Indeed I much prefer Unisystem for urban fantasy type stuff. Dex is still an uberstat, and things get wonky at high ability levels, but it's a much more elegant system.

[banjo1985]

I must say I really enjoy playing and GMing the storytelling system, I find the system far more fluid, loose and adaptable as DnD, and I must admit, nowhere near as broken. It's nice to have a game where combat is truely dangerous no-matter what the opponent, and a levelling up system where you dodn't suddenly get a glut of new abilities when you wake up one morning.

It's also nice how truely good rolls have a bigger significance, having a lower powered game means that every extra success counts.

Having said all that, I can understand some of the negative feelings going around. The WoD system and 3.5 are almost polar opposites, so I doubt there are that many people who enjoy one that also like the other.

Oh and also, the core WoD books stands on its own as a full game, you only need the others if you want to use Vampires, Werewolves or Mages, which in the main isn't necessary, so it really isn't much of a weakness!

[Kiero]

Having said all that, I can understand some of the negative feelings going around. The WoD system and 3.5 are almost polar opposites, so I doubt there are that many people who enjoy one that also like the other.

Not really. It might lack levels, but the 5x5 structure is pretty close to classes, even if it's not as much as the old Clans/Traditions/Breeds/whatever schema.

They're both still solidly traditional in their approach to regulating play. I'm not saying they're alike, but polar opposites they are not. Simply at different points on the continuum.


Oh and also, the core WoD books stands on its own as a full game, you only need the others if you want to use Vampires, Werewolves or Mages, which in the main isn't necessary, so it really isn't much of a weakness!

You only need the others...if you actually want to play what you'd buy the thing for. Mage 2nd edition was a complete book all in one volume. Now for the same playability you have to buy two books instead of one.

[Skjaldbakka]

Oh the horror! It takes two books to play!

At least now it's internally consistent, which it was not anywhere close to before.

[banjo1985]

You only need the others...if you actually want to play what you'd buy the thing for. Mage 2nd edition was a complete book all in one volume. Now for the same playability you have to buy two books instead of one.

I must admit I bought the core book for the standard game, and only learnt of the extra options later. The core book contains a full rules system ideal for homebrewing, which is what I tend to do when I GM. Th eother rule books add something to what is already a solid core book, and it has to be said, even two books is better than needing 5 or 6 like a lot of other games on the market (3.5, Runequest, Star Wars etc).

However I do agree with the first point, they aren't really complete opposites in terms of the ruleset, but they tend to be in terms of storytelling and the expectations of players. 3.5 lends itself to hack'n'slash far too readily for my liking, and promotes a high-power fantasy play method. WoD is lower powered and more dangerous in terms of combat, and the amount of out-of-combat rules focus it more on interaction and roleplaying rather than rollplaying.

[Kiero]

I'm a little surprised about all this talk of how D&D is for hack and slash, yet somehow WoD is for deep roleplaying or something. Given how many tales there are of oWoD Vampire being played as "dark supers with fangs". All the tales of trenchcoats, mirrorshades and katanas, fun with chainsaws and shotguns, and general lack of anything beyond hack and slash in the modern era.

[banjo1985]

I can't comment upon this, being a base WoD player rather than that there fancy vampire game, but I have to say in my experience the basic WoD ruleset makes it very dangerous to even try hacking your way through a problem. It's also has far more in the way of rules for skills and activities outside of combat. I just feel that the way DnD sets itself up makes it ripe for a hack'n'slash game. I'm not saying it can't be run really well as a deep roleplaying experience, just that it makes it harder for itself with the plethora of combat rules and focus on stats.

[Were-Sandwich]

I think what a lot of the problems people keep presercibing to the WoD rules sound more like a lack of trust in the Storyteller. I have that problem with my D&D group sometimes. I own a lot more splatbooks than my players, so when I break out a Warblade or Psion NPC, and he starts doing laods of non-core stuff, they get all pissed off and "How can he do that" or sometimes "He can't do that".

[Ruerl]

No, I didn't forget Exalted. Exalted is NOT World of Darkness. Exalted is a White Wolf product. Saying Exalted is WoD is like saying Star Wars is D&D.

Ehm.. no, just no.

There are links between the two systems and they are taking place in two different ages, world of darkness is a later age, and there are a lot of things that goes again:
Deathlords
the entire concept of the underworld
the gods and the god system (including the weaver, wyrm and so on).
the entire concept of ghosts where basically copied from wraith: the oblivion

Granted, some of the things are used in a slightly different way, but the basic mythology is the same world-setting to the core, some of the things are hinted at in obsucre materials such as the dirty secrets of the black hand.

Finally, grabbing my closest exalted book at hand: "The abyssals" I look on the back of the book for the description of whats inside and I copy the first two lines:

"Before there was a world of darkness,
there was an age of savage adventure".

So yes, its the same setting, at vastly different periods granted, and granted, Exalted is not WoD, but it *is* the same setting, if you want to make a comparison its like comparing playing in a medieval setting and a modern setting ;)

[Skjaldbakka]

So yes, its the same setting, at vastly different periods granted, and granted, Exalted is not WoD, but it *is* the same setting, if you want to make a comparison its like comparing playing in a medieval setting and a modern setting ;)

Take a look a the map lately? Or any of the non-exalted background material, for that matter? nWoD setting info covers the long-time-ago time period. Exalted is a different setting entirely, as is Scion.

And even if you were right, and they were the same setting, it would be like comparing Conan with D20 Modern.



"Before there was a world of darkness,
there was an age of savage adventure".

Because we all know that two lines of flavor text trumps actual defined setting information.


EDIT- not to mention that time period is a part of the setting.

[Kiero]

Take a look a the map lately? Or any of the non-exalted background material, for that matter? nWoD setting info covers the long-time-ago time period. Exalted is a different setting entirely, as is Scion.

And even if you were right, and they were the same setting, it would be like comparing Conan with D20 Modern.

Because we all know that two lines of flavor text trumps actual defined setting information.


EDIT- not to mention that time period is a part of the setting.

I think you're trying rather too hard to paint as starkly different what are nothing more than differing spins on the same theme.

[Yithian]

I think you're trying rather too hard to paint as starkly different what are nothing more than differing spins on the same theme.

And what theme would that be? WoD themes are personal horror (vampires especially), degeneration (all), morality (all), humanity (Promethean), and many others in that vein. Exalted themes include adventure, action, struggle. Obviously I am being liberal with the use of the word "theme", but the point is the same - there is not so much overlap.

The two are starkly different. In WoD, combat is lethal to most characters, especially new ones. In Exalted the players start off having the essence of the gods, and can cut down tons of lesser creatures.

WoD is much less mechanically crunchy than Exalted because combat isn't supposed to be dramatic, it is supposed to end with people dead. In Exalted, combat is a) more elaborate, b) more cinematic, c) more crunchy.

Also, in Exalted, the players are supposed to have epic goals, and they have the power to achieve these goals. In WoD, much of the horror comes from fighting a losing struggle against the inevitable, or being hopelessly overshadowed by your opponents - in hunter games especially.

I strongly agree with Skjaldbakka, in that aside from the manufacturer and liberal use of the d10, Exalted and WoD are very different.

Yithian

Edit: added clarification

[Ruerl]

Agree or disagree as much as you want, the basic fact on exalted and WoD is still that they use a lot of the same material that goes again in both game systems, to deny is silly.

@Skjaldbakka: Yep, I all of the core materials from the last edition of vampire: the masquerade (haven't bothered to update to the latest edition) and I own several other of the materials assosiated with that setting, such as the aforementioned dirty secrets of the black hand.

Point is however, that looking at a map won't make any difference whatsoever, the time periods of the two systems are so wildly apart that the world is vastly different, its like trying to find modern europe in the cretaceous period, and the "gauntlet" where by far not so strong back then, but it was there none the less, thats one of the points that both mages in WoD and sidereal in exalted has to accept.

To get back to the real point of the discussion, wether or not WoD is a great system i'd say that it is, if this fluff-nerding is the heaviest debate (and it usually is) then the rules system is good and easy to put into the background just as it should be, so that the focus should be the right place, in the roleplaying.

If you wish to continue to debate the WoD & Exalted point however, then feel free to either start a new thread or PM me -but lets not derail this thread further ;)

Regards

Lars

[Indon]

At best. At worst, it was "I can kill werewolves from ninety meters with pennies, and they don't even know it's coming. Oh, and I'm invisible."

I never experienced this in my WoD games. And wouldn't all that accumulate like, kill-you-instantly-in-backfire amounts of Paradox (and also attract the attention of the Technocracy, the self-professed champions of the universes' order)?

[The Gilded Duke]

Yeah! I remember constructing a table on that, so I knew how many Dice to throw in when I had a certain number to beat. That way the odds of 1's coming up wasn't greater than the odds of success, like it would have been if I threw out the max number of dice everytime. Always thought that mechanic was a little nutty.

Has anyone tried using the old WoD fluff with the new WoD rules?

I did a conversion to use the nWOD vampire rules with oWOD setting. It wasn't too increadibly hard. Most of the powers already exist, or are otherwise better written in the new rules. Dementation was completley removed, but wasn't too hard to make again. If you want you could always replace it entirely with nightmare, the two are very similar. I was a big fan of dread gaze, so I just took the level one nightmare power and put it back in as dread gaze.

The Tremere were the hardest part if you want to try and get the old thaumaturgy rituals. Instead I just gave them access to cruac and thebian. Most of the iconic rituals are still there (vitae reliquary, immunity to staking) without the really cheesy ones like the touch you anywhere and you are paralyzed stake, and the pavis of foul presence.

When i ran it I ended up using the same old Influences system, but since then began liking the status and allies system better. Status is what you control officially... like if your a police officer you can do certain things. Allies is what you have influence over unofficially... like if you are bribing a police officer. So much simpler then the rather arbitrary distinctions of influence.

Overall the changes to some of the major disciplines are great. Celerity is no longer broken. Obfuscate and Auspex rules are simpler. Same with dominate.

Some friends of mine now are working on a conversion of the oWOD changeling to using the nWOD system. I don't think new changeling is out yet.. which is making it a little tougher, but it shouldn't be too bad.

Oh, and the two book system is great. Also alot of their most recent books have been some of the best roleplaying game books I have ever read. Favorite two right now are the Carthian and Circle of the Crone books. They really flesh out what were originally rather boring concepts.

With all that said... yeah nWOD can be powergamed rather extensivley. When you start a game either decide wether or not you will be using armory. If you don't start with Armory, don't add it. Armory messes with the power levels of everything involved, although at the same time it does make combat more fun, quick, and lethal.