Help with my build optimization

[rupierto97]

Hi guys, so here's the thing

I started playing DnD 3.5 a few months ago so I'm still fairly new to the game. My first character was a Dwarven Fighter created without a clear build in mind. Now that I know a little bit more about the game I wanted to try what I can to optimize my character and do a little bit better with it. Can you guys help me? My DM allows us for all Complete handbooks in addition to the core rulebook. As I sayd earlier, I'm a level 5 Dwarf Fighter with the following stats:

STR: 20
DEX: 13
COS: 20
INT: 10
WIS: 13
CHA: 10

Currently my feats are: Power Strike, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Toughness and Protection Devotion and my DM allowed me to swap one for a new one. In battle I tend to be more of a defensive type, protecting others from danger and tanking hits using full plate armor and tower shield, paired with a Dwarven Waraxe. Also, my DM gave me the power to strike on opponent with no hit die and without using power strike three times a day as a bonus. I hope you all can help me out.

[Sam K]

How do you actually protect people? Do you just stand in the way of the bad guys and hope they attack the guy in plate instead of the guy in a dress and a pointy hat?

If you want to be a tank, I would say the big thing you can do to optimise is to take some feats that will let you stop the enemy from attacking. Improved trip is a classic, as is stand still - stand still lets you use your attacks of opportunity to stop the target from moving instead of doing regular attacks, which means you can prevent someone from slipping past you to attack a squishier party member.

The other option is to get a two-hander and feature more damage dealing in your build: your shield doesn't actually make you better at protecting anyone else, it just makes YOU harder to hit (which could actually encourage your enemies to switch targets; why attack the guy who does low damage but is hard to hit). With high strength, power attack and a two hander, you can deal solid damage while still retaining high AC.

[rupierto97]

How do you actually protect people? Do you just stand in the way of the bad guys and hope they attack the guy in plate instead of the guy in a dress and a pointy hat?

If you want to be a tank, I would say the big thing you can do to optimise is to take some feats that will let you stop the enemy from attacking. Improved trip is a classic, as is stand still - stand still lets you use your attacks of opportunity to stop the target from moving instead of doing regular attacks, which means you can prevent someone from slipping past you to attack a squishier party member.

The other option is to get a two-hander and feature more damage dealing in your build: your shield doesn't actually make you better at protecting anyone else, it just makes YOU harder to hit (which could actually encourage your enemies to switch targets; why attack the guy who does low damage but is hard to hit). With high strength, power attack and a two hander, you can deal solid damage while still retaining high AC.

Ok, thank you. Also, if I wanted to go full dps and drop my shield, what feats and/or prestige classes would you suggest?

[Sam K]

Are you open to dips? That is, taking 1 or two levels of another base class? Or even abandoning fighter completely in favour of another base class?

If so, 1 or 2 levels of barbarian with the class variant lion totem and the alternative class feature whirling frenzy are great. It gives you a rage with an extra attack, and pounce (full attack on charge).

Taking a level of warblade (from Tome of Battle), or more, is going to significantly improve your flexibility and damage. However, it involves learning a new system: it is up to you if you feel ok with that!

For feats, travel devotion is great in order to get some extra mobility in fights. Leap attack will add punch to your power attacks. Shock trooper is a tactical feat which gives some interesting options for dealing more damage as well.

You can read the feat section of the warblades handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction) to find some interesting feats. Most of them are not warblade specific, but can be taken by a fighter, if you wish to remain in your base class.

There are people on these forums who can write entire books on how to optimise your damage; I have far more humble aspirations, but the above things should at least give you some ideas of directions you can move in :)

PS. Toughness is a really bad feat. See if your DM will let you re-train it into something more useful.

[rupierto97]

Are you open to dips? That is, taking 1 or two levels of another base class? Or even abandoning fighter completely in favour of another base class?

If so, 1 or 2 levels of barbarian with the class variant lion totem and the alternative class feature whirling frenzy are great. It gives you a rage with an extra attack, and pounce (full attack on charge).

Taking a level of warblade (from Tome of Battle), or more, is going to significantly improve your flexibility and damage. However, it involves learning a new system: it is up to you if you feel ok with that!

For feats, travel devotion is great in order to get some extra mobility in fights. Leap attack will add punch to your power attacks. Shock trooper is a tactical feat which gives some interesting options for dealing more damage as well.

You can read the feat section of the warblades handbook to find some interesting feats. Most of them are not warblade specific, but can be taken by a fighter, if you wish to remain in your base class.

There are people on these forums who can write entire books on how to optimise your damage; I have far more humble aspirations, but the above things should at least give you some ideas of directions you can move in :)

PS. Toughness is a really bad feat. See if your DM will let you re-train it into something more useful.

Taking Barbarian levels would mean that I'd have to drop heavy armor too? Also, I can't use anything that is not from Complete handbooks or phb 1 so Warblade is not permitted.

[Sam K]

Barbarian isn't proficient in heavy armour, but you already have the proficiency from being a fighter, so you should have no problem wearing it unless there are some abilities which specifically require you to be in light or medium armour (I think the extra movement may have that restriction). The alternative class features I mentioned are from Unearthed Arcana so they may not be allowed, but you could still benefit from the standard rage (and possibly the extra rage feat). If you can't get pounce from barbarian, travel devotion becomes extra useful. If you are willing, you could consider a cleric dip. The right domains could get you some useful extra feats, and can be traded in for devotion feats. Knowledge devotion is great if you have the skills to back it up (you only need 1 skill point in the relevant knowledge skills to make the check, and you're then guaranteed at least +1 to hit and damage). But I realise a cleric dip could be hard to justify in-char for some characters.

You could also consider exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain. It allows you to extend your reach and threaten a larger area, something which can really help a fighter. It is generally considered the only exotic weapon worth spending a feat on.

[theboss]

Taking Barbarian levels would mean that I'd have to drop heavy armor too?

No, while Barbarian doesn't have profiencty with heavy armors, Fighter does have. so you can still have full plate. But I don't recommend you to do so. While it provides +8 AC, it has many drawbacks to your skills and mobility. For example, if your current build will get ray of enfeeblement and your str will drop to 8 or less, you'll fall from the weight of it, not considring the tower shield which also heavy.

T
Also, I can't use anything that is not from Complete handbooks or phb 1 so Warblade is not permitted.

Variant lion totem is from Complete Champion but I suggest you should speak with your DM about it, since it gives you Pounce at level 1. In my table, it is not premmited. If it was, I'd have done 300+ damage per turn. :)
While Tome of Battle has nice things, Complete mage, warrior and adventurer has not less nice things.
Download the books in a pdf file and start scrolling. As mentioned above, I do not like sword and board fighter style since it gets boring and not helping much after level 8~.
Going two handed fightining is the best option for a fighter to go.
As for optimizing your build, I suggest stay with 2 levels of fighter and start dipping in classes that gives other nice things instead of feats. If you DM allows you to take that barbrian lion totem then your build will get alot better.

There are alot of builds for a fighter to be, but here is the most popular among them.
- TWF tripping build (my favoriate). helpful for the team, can reach nice amount of damage with the right build, High AC.
- Ubercharger (two handed fighter with power attack + leap attack). Very nice build with tons of damage on a charge. Can be combined with shocktropper in order to get more hits, Poor AC tho.

Since your dex score is not high enough to get TWF feats (Althought there's a way for you to get 2 of them, 2 levels of ranger and gloves of the balanced hands- gives you Improved TWF).

For every option, I can suggest strong build. It's up to you to choose the style you want.

[theboss]

You could also consider exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain. It allows you to extend your reach and threaten a larger area, something which can really help a fighter. It is generally considered the only exotic weapon worth spending a feat on.

What about Revenant Blade class? While Valenar double scimitar has regular reach, this class combines TWF and two handed fighting, combining it with Exotic weapon master and get Uncany Blow for 2 times str bonus on each strike, leap attack and two weapon pounce. you'll get tons of damage on a full attack and tons of damage on a charge.

[Simba]

What about Revenant Blade class? While Valenar double scimitar has regular reach, this class combines TWF and two handed fighting, combining it with Exotic weapon master and get Uncany Blow for 2 times str bonus on each strike, leap attack and two weapon pounce. you'll get tons of damage on a full attack and tons of damage on a charge.

If you are a Valenar Elf....anything else is kinda hard to justify unless you disregard style and RP issues in favor of pure power.

[rupierto97]

What about Revenant Blade class? While Valenar double scimitar has regular reach, this class combines TWF and two handed fighting, combining it with Exotic weapon master and get Uncany Blow for 2 times str bonus on each strike, leap attack and two weapon pounce. you'll get tons of damage on a full attack and tons of damage on a charge.

Again, Revenant Blade is not an option since my DM only allows stuff from the Complete manuals (Champion, Fighter, Scoundrel etc.).

[theboss]

If you are a Valenar Elf....anything else is kinda hard to justify unless you disregard style and RP issues in favor of pure power.

I'm afraid I don't understand you. Can you explain? RP?

*EDIT:
Got you now, I need to justify my race so it'll not seem like I took the class just for pure power?

[theboss]

Again, Revenant Blade is not an option since my DM only allows stuff from the Complete manuals (Champion, Fighter, Scoundrel etc.).

I didn't said it was a build for you. Sam K said that spiked chain is the only exotic weapon worth spending a feat on and I disagree.

[Simba]

I'm afraid I don't understand you. Can you explain? RP?

The Valenar double skimitar is a setting specific elven weapon. The Valenar Elves would rather commit suicide than teach it's use to a dwarven outsider.
In other words, using that weapon as an elf of the Valenar tribes in the Eberron campaign setting is stylish and recommended.
Any other use is questionable or even outright wrong from a roleplayer's POV.

[theboss]

The Valenar double skimitar is a setting specific elven weapon. The Valenar Elves would rather commit suicide than teach it's use to a dwarven outsider.

I did not said that this build is for the OP. I said that because Sam K said something I disagree about exotic weapon feats.


In other words, using that weapon as an elf of the Valenar tribes in the Eberron campaign setting is stylish and recommended.
Any other use is questionable or even outright wrong from a roleplayer's POV.

My DM make his campaign setting, I agree that this fighting style is not popluar outside of the valenar tribes. But why it needs to be questionable or outright wrong?

EDIT: I think that fighting diffrently from other fighters is stylish and recommended.

[Simba]

I agree that this fighting style is not popluar. But why it needs to be questionable or outright wrong?
Because it is like giving a Katana to a Cherokee. Yes, theoretically it can happen. But it should not...

[theboss]

Because it is like giving a Katana to a Cherokee. Yes, theoretically it can happen. But it should not...

I don't know what your thinking but I'm a Valenar elf. My region has to be in ebberon but it doesn't make it questionable or outright wrong if I'm not there anymore. Who said I'm gonna teach anyone how to use it?

[Simba]

In other words, using that weapon as an elf of the Valenar tribes in the Eberron campaign setting is stylish and recommended.


I don't know what your thinking but I'm a Valenar elf. My region has to be in ebberon but it doesn't make it questionable or outright wrong if I'm not there anymore. Who said I'm gonna teach anyone how to use it?

Then it is of course ok to use one.

[Sam K]

I didn't said it was a build for you. Sam K said that spiked chain is the only exotic weapon worth spending a feat on and I disagree.

I was pretty unclear there, I'm afraid. Spiked chain is generally, in my experiences, the only exotic weapon considered worth a feat. This may be because it's a core weapon that most players have heard of (based on the assumption that most players has looked through the PHB). As you correctly pointed out, there are some other, possibly less known, exotic weapons that may be worth taking as well.

[theboss]

I was pretty unclear there, I'm afraid. Spiked chain is generally, in my experiences, the only exotic weapon considered worth a feat. This may be because it's a core weapon that most players have heard of (based on the assumption that most players has looked through the PHB). As you correctly pointed out, there are some other, possibly less known, exotic weapons that may be worth taking as well.

Vailed points, Agreed.