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Scissors
2007-08-11, 01:08 PM
Sort of an open forum discussion: how do you keep rogues viable at higher levels of gameplay? Their Sneak Attack becomes increasingly useless with all the Uncanny Dodge floating around and they don't have the feats (or the HP) to keep up with other combat classes in a straight fight.

Any favorite builds, tips, or trick would be appreciated.

Drider
2007-08-11, 01:25 PM
use magic device

The Glyphstone
2007-08-11, 01:34 PM
Unless all you fight are creatures with Barbarian/Rogue class levels (or other classes with Uncanny Dodge), that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Very few monsters are immune to sneak attack - the ones that can't be flanked/caught flat-footed are usually still vulnerable to being feinted against. For constructs/undead, it's either dip a caster level for Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike, or take the alternate class feature in PHBII that lets you give any creature a -5 AC penalty in place of trying to sneak attack it.

or if you're talking only about PvP games, arena style...then the above poster is right really. Uncanny Dodge and Fortification armor force any high-level rogue to become a Wizard Lite to really win, via scrolls and such.

Orzel
2007-08-11, 01:43 PM
Most things immune to sneak attack have enough weakness to abuse. Rogue are still great at noncombat issues. It all about having enough skill ranks to abuse weaknesses at high levels.

Item magic, stealth, conversation, and athletics.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-11, 02:28 PM
Unless all you fight are creatures with Barbarian/Rogue class levels (or other classes with Uncanny Dodge), that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Very few monsters are immune to sneak attack - the ones that can't be flanked/caught flat-footed are usually still vulnerable to being feinted against. For constructs/undead, it's either dip a caster level for Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike, or take the alternate class feature in PHBII that lets you give any creature a -5 AC penalty in place of trying to sneak attack it.

or if you're talking only about PvP games, arena style...then the above poster is right really. Uncanny Dodge and Fortification armor force any high-level rogue to become a Wizard Lite to really win, via scrolls and such.

Actually, the best way to get sneak-attack against constructs/undead/plants/etc. is to take the alt. class feature in Dungeonscape which lets you apply 1/2 SA to anything normally immune to critical hits. It replaces trap sense (which isn't that useful).

UMD gives you some good magic use.

Even creatures with UD can still be feinted against. This doesn't help with ranged weapons, but if you are at a range, UMD on a blaster wand or somthing.

I actually think rogues are the most useful non-casters, and can be the most consistantly useful characters (from 1-20). If you play them right, they have options in any situation.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-11, 02:30 PM
Rogues only really have problems with sneak attack if your high-level antagonists are things-with-levels as opposed to big-scary-monster.

If they have +10 armor, odds are +5 of that is heavy fort (there just aren't a lot of good 'other stuff' to put on there that isn't +X cost as opposed to +X enhancement). Except for druids (wilding is +3, so they are less likely to have heavy Fort- but they might have splashed Wildshaper to be flat-out immune to crits).

Proven_Paradox
2007-08-11, 02:36 PM
If you want to keep a rogue viable in direct combat, the answer is probably PrC. From there it depends on what you like. Maxing bluff then going for feints is always good for getting in sneak attacks; for that reason I actually like the Invisible Blade PrC for high level rogues, in spite of the prereqs that don't help and make no sense.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-11, 02:36 PM
Rogues only really have problems with sneak attack if your high-level antagonists are things-with-levels as opposed to big-scary-monster.

If they have +10 armor, odds are +5 of that is heavy fort (there just aren't a lot of good 'other stuff' to put on there that isn't +X cost as opposed to +X enhancement). Except for druids (wilding is +3, so they are less likely to have heavy Fort- but they might have splashed Wildshaper to be flat-out immune to crits).

Wich is why the variant levels in PHB2 and Dungeonscape are so good, they make the rogue's signature ability useful in that situation.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-11, 07:54 PM
The Penetrating Strike alternate class feature is good, and I echo the suggestion by BardicDuelist to take it. Also get both the Demolition and Truedeath weapon augment crystals (Magic Item Compendium) so you can do full sneak attack damage (not just 1/2) against constructs and undead.

The Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) increases your sneak attack damage by 1 point per character level at the risk of running from a fight because of hightened fear vulnerability. The higher your level the better, so this is a feat that scales perfectly for you. And prestige classes don't suck as badly because Craven still helps you even if you don't get extra d6s of sneak attack.

With middling BAB you won't hit as often as you like. Improve that by using touch attack spells from wands and you only need to beat the enemies' touch AC. A Greater Magic Fang (+5) with Permanency will improve your unarmed attacks, touch or otherwise, and is cost-effective even if it gets dispelled occasionally. Unarmed strikes are light melee weapons, which means Weapon Finesse is useful here.

Rogues have weak HP, thus avoiding getting hit is important. A level of Shadowdancer will give you Hide in Plain Sight, and max ranks in Hide could let you full attack while hiding with every swing. If you stay hidden you'll attack as if invisible, which means sneak attack damage unless the opponent is immune. A Lavender and green Ioun stone will suck up spells that you don't save against; that's highly recommended. At Epic levels Dexterous Fortitude and Dexterous Will will greatly improve your saves. Before that you can improve things by multiclassing with something that has good Fortitude and Will saves, such as my favorite combo: a dip into Cleric, making good use of Domain granted powers such as Pride (reroll any 1 on a saving throw, once per save).

JellyPooga
2007-08-11, 08:24 PM
I actually think rogues are the most useful non-casters, and can be the most consistantly useful characters (from 1-20). If you play them right, they have options in any situation.

I'll second that.

You know how there's a lot of talk about "Batman Wizards"?...the Rogue is just "Batman"...he can do pretty much anything mundanely (rather than magically) and those things he can't do mundanely, he'll do using UMD.

I'm da Rogue!
2007-08-12, 11:26 AM
Reflex.
The main reason rogues make spellcasters (and dms) angry.

Sneak attacks extra damage flies to the skies after some levels, there are many opponents who can't avoid sneak attacks.

Don't forget that a surprise round for a rogue who is always alert is like a solo!!

When a rogue has a flanked opponent (with someone else)
...sweet!

Rogues should take advantage of their skills.
Don't forget the Bluff checks during battle, and with a nice Tumble check you can avoid attacks of opportunity.
Oh!!! USE MAGIC DEVICE MAN!!!!

High Dexterity, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, all these can make a rogue a deadly opponent.

(Although in high levels I prefer to turn my rogues into shadowdancers or assassins)

Falrin
2007-08-12, 12:12 PM
And a anti-magic field kills casters.

And Flying high speed enemies will kill the melee.

And 'kill the child to avoid world destrucrion' will kill the paladin.



Yes, Rogues have a hard time against certain opponent, but they're among the most felxible classes around. UMD, TWF-Sneak-attack and all-around good skills.

The point is: When yuo're a Rogue and the DM throws Undead at you he should concider he's negating your main abillity.
1) he should warn you there're gone be lots of undead in his campaign.
2) he should proviode an easy way around this.
3) he should take another main enemy.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-12, 12:39 PM
The point is: When yuo're a Rogue and the DM throws Undead at you he should concider he's negating your main abillity.
1) he should warn you there're gone be lots of undead in his campaign.
2) he should proviode an easy way around this.
3) he should take another main enemy.
I think that every rogue should get a greater truedeath crystal, or the one that effects constructs(depending on which you generally find more of). These make it much more bearable for rogues.

Thrawn183
2007-08-12, 09:20 PM
I'm very against the idea of strengthening rogues in combat. Rogues have great stealth, they have trapfinding, they are good at social situations. They are very flexible.

Now lets make them better at melee? Just keep rubbing salt in the melee'rs wounds.

Dausuul
2007-08-13, 10:27 AM
I'm very against the idea of strengthening rogues in combat. Rogues have great stealth, they have trapfinding, they are good at social situations. They are very flexible.

Now lets make them better at melee? Just keep rubbing salt in the melee'rs wounds.

Yeah, rogues are solid in the combat department; they are, after all, supposed to fill a second-string role in combat. I think all you really need to do in order to make rogues remain cool at high levels is to strip away all the 2nd- and 3rd-level spells (knock, invisibility, fly, find traps, et cetera, et cetera) that let the casters stomp all over the rogue's territory.

(Of course, some of those probably shouldn't be taken out entirely; invisibility is sort of iconic, after all. Just give it an XP cost or an expensive material component so you can't toss it out on a whim. Or you could have it grant a +10 competence bonus on Hide checks and allow hide in plain sight, rather than providing true invis; that way the rogue can still out-stealth everyone else.)

Telonius
2007-08-13, 10:50 AM
UMD, Rings of Invisibility/Blinking, creative diplomancy ... Rogues can be useful at high levels. They won't ever be a frontline combatant, but they don't need to be.

About those spellcasters duplicating Rogue responsibilities... What wizard in his right mind is going to refuse a Rogue who's willing to search for/disable traps? Spells are precious, and getting a Rogue - who has unlimited uses per day of the skill - to do it for free just makes sense.

Dausuul
2007-08-13, 11:00 AM
About those spellcasters duplicating Rogue responsibilities... What wizard in his right mind is going to refuse a Rogue who's willing to search for/disable traps? Spells are precious, and getting a Rogue - who has unlimited uses per day of the skill - to do it for free just makes sense.

To a 12th-level wizard, a second- or third-level spell represents a minor expenditure. To a 14th-level wizard, it's almost trivial. To a 16th-level wizard, it is entirely trivial.

Sure, if you've got a rogue along, you might as well let the rogue handle traps and locks for you, but that's like saying that if you've got a samurai along, you might as well let the samurai melee the monsters. The problem is that at that level, the party would be better served in almost all respects by dumping the rogue and replacing her with another caster... just like fighters, barbarians, and pretty much any other non-caster class.

When the whole purpose of your character's existence is to spare your wizard buddy the terrible effort of blowing a couple of low-level spells, something needs fixing.

Person_Man
2007-08-13, 11:54 AM
The Savvy Rogue feat from Complete Scoundrel allows all of your Special Abilities to be much more potent. You can apply Str damage against enemies immune to crits, you can use your Defensive Roll feat three times per day, and you can use Opportunist as many times per round as you can make attacks of opportunity, but no more than once per creature per round.

There's a Shadow Hand manuever that let's you flank by standing next to an ally, making Sneak Attack and Crippling Strike much easier to pull off.

The Staggering Stike feat automatically staggers any enemy you damage with Sneak Attack for 1 round, limiting them to a single Move or Standard Action.

The Double Hit feat allows you to make two attacks whenever you make an AoO, and it has perfect synergy with TWF Opportunist builds.

I could go on. Certainly a Rogue will never be as potent as a full caster, but its playable when done correctly.

Aquillion
2007-08-13, 12:04 PM
And a anti-magic field kills casters.

And Flying high speed enemies will kill the melee.

And 'kill the child to avoid world destrucrion' will kill the paladin.

Yes, Rogues have a hard time against certain opponent, but they're among the most felxible classes around. UMD, TWF-Sneak-attack and all-around good skills.I don't disagree on rogues being flexable enough (most of their real usage is outside of combat anyway, to much a greater degree than any of the other four main roles), but I don't think the examples you gave are really equivilent. Anti-magic fields are not very common in most games. Undead, on the other hand... a thoughtless DM can make campaigns that are almost entirely undead and constructs without even batting an eyelash. Try running an entire campaign in an AMF and see how far you get before the other players beat you to death with the sourcebooks.


To a 12th-level wizard, a second- or third-level spell represents a minor expenditure. To a 14th-level wizard, it's almost trivial. To a 16th-level wizard, it is entirely trivial.It isn't that easy. This came up before... what spells are you using, exactly, to protect yourself against traps? Keep the following in mind:

1. You don't know where the traps are before you encounter them. So, if you're going to replace the rogue with magic, you need a spell that will operate 24/7 (or, at least, whenever you're moving anywhere in a new area) that can spot traps or scout ahead (while finding traps) at least as well as a rogue. Note that summons don't do this at all; for the most part, they have a duration measured in seconds, or a minute or two at most. Even a level 20 caster can't afford to rely entirely on summoned monsters for trap-scouting. Prying Eyes, magic's main answer to scouting, doesn't do search checks at all, and will neither find nor set off hidden traps if you send it ahead (meaning your party, following behind, will set them off.) Most of the other scrying spells require that you have a general sense of what you're looking for or where you're looking in advance; there's no easy "find every trap in this dungeon" spell. This is the biggest issue, right here. Magic can solve almost any problem... but you have to know where the problem is first.

2. After you're aware that there's a trap in an area by whatever means, you have to identify it. Having only a general sense that an area's trapped won't help... you need to know things like where it is, how it's set off, if it's auto-reloading, if the mechanism has anything fancy up its sleeve that isn't revealed by your whatever your first magical glance was, if there are nearby traps set up to work with it, and so on. A spellcaster who skips this step could easily send their celestial monkey in to set off a trap, only to discover that it auto-reloaded.

Which leads to...

3. Dealing with the trap. Some traps can be easily avoided or disabled by mundane means if you know they're there. Others can't. In that case, without Disable Device, you're left trying to find a magical means to cope with it. Magical traps can be dispelled, sure... but that's risky, since many magical traps say that they're designed to be set off by a failed dispel. Other traps will require specific countermeasures, which could range from teleporting past to blasting it to... well, who knows? You'd just better hope you did step 2 properly, or you might find you only circumvented or disarmed part of the trap.

With all of this taken together, a wizard could easily be wasting a total of three decently-levelled spells just to deal with a single trap... and they could still be failing, easily more often than the rogue.

Delaney Gale
2007-08-13, 01:04 PM
To a 12th-level wizard, a second- or third-level spell represents a minor expenditure. To a 14th-level wizard, it's almost trivial. To a 16th-level wizard, it is entirely trivial.

Sure, if you've got a rogue along, you might as well let the rogue handle traps and locks for you, but that's like saying that if you've got a samurai along, you might as well let the samurai melee the monsters. The problem is that at that level, the party would be better served in almost all respects by dumping the rogue and replacing her with another caster... just like fighters, barbarians, and pretty much any other non-caster class.

When the whole purpose of your character's existence is to spare your wizard buddy the terrible effort of blowing a couple of low-level spells, something needs fixing.

Third-level spells are never trivial. Haste. Enough said. My memory's kind of shaky and my handbooks are in another state, but I'm pretty sure there's a second-level spell or two that I wouldn't want to use a 'rogue-replacement' slot.

I am a huge advocate for the Skill-Monkey/Party Spokesperson builds. Give your rogue high DEX, high INT (my Rogue 5/Swash 9 has 18 INT and DEX), and a decent CHA, and with some savvy feat, class, and ability selections (I've always loved the synergy between rogue and swashbuckler, and there's a feat in Complete Scoundrel that even ups your sneak attack with every swash level), your rogue is your go-to person for the vast majority of skill checks- not just trapfinding/lockpicking/scouting, but also dealing with any and all non-hostile NPCs. As an extra bonus, some really clever feat selections can make a rogue a melee combatant with damage potential on par with your well-done but not unnecessarily optimized fighter build.

Favorite things for a rogue:

Rapiers. They're only a 1d6 with a x2 critical, but they work with Weapon Finesse and have an 18-20 crit range. Get a keen rapier or take Improved Critical and not only will you be sneak attacking, you'll be getting some extra damage. Especially good with an energy burst weapon.

Feint. You want to be able to feint as much as you can. There are improved feint feats that allow you to feint and attack in the same round... it's not a full attack action, but when you don't have full BaB, you can often get better damage potential from one attack against a lower AC (particularly when it gets sneak attack!).

Combat Panache tactical feat. I can't remember what book this is from, but it gives you a few extraordinary abilities tied to Bluff, Intimidate, and Tumble. Which you should have as a savvy rogue. The Bluff and Tumble ones work on creatures immune to sneak attacks, and the Intimidate one works on all creatures with minds.

Choker of Eloquence. From the Arms and Equipment Guide. In the minor flavor, I think it's 1500 GP (although I may be wrong), and gives +5 to Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy. In the major flavor, it's 6000 gp and gives +10. Relatively trivial to the money pool of a high-level character, and gives you a huge boost to feinting (and two Combat Panache abilities if you're using it).

Basically, my advice for high-level rogues... max out Bluff. Because no one takes Sense Motive.

EDIT: Also, golem scarabs and a mace of disruption. Not the most rogue-focused way of spending your money, but it will make you at least playable against constructs and undead.

Dausuul
2007-08-13, 01:11 PM
1. You don't know where the traps are before you encounter them. So, if you're going to replace the rogue with magic, you need a spell that will operate 24/7 (or, at least, whenever you're moving anywhere in a new area) that can spot traps or scout ahead (while finding traps) at least as well as a rogue. Note that summons don't do this at all; for the most part, they have a duration measured in seconds, or a minute or two at most.

For those who don't mind a little [Evil] in their spell descriptors, animate dead is just about perfect. 25 gp per trap is nothing at high levels, and if you do it the day before you head into the dungeon, you can have 4 trap-detectors per caster level at no cost in spell slots. If you're squeamish about desecrating the bodies of the dead to create accursed undead horrors, you can charm a denizen of the dungeon and get it to tell you where the traps are. And you underestimate the value of summons; one celestial dog (summon monster I), summoned by a 12th-level caster with Extend Spell, will be able to cover 1,920 feet of dungeon corridor before it vanishes, taking a double move each round.

Of course, this is assuming you don't just use scrying and then teleport right to where you want to be, bypassing all traps entirely.


Most of the other scrying spells require that you have a general sense of what you're looking for or where you're looking in advance; there's no easy "find every trap in this dungeon" spell.

Actually, there is. It's called find the path. It explicitly tells you how to get past every trap on the way to the location you want to reach. Of course, it does require expending a 6th-level spell slot, but that one spell completely obviates any need for a trap-finder.


2. ...you need to know things like where it is, how it's set off, if it's auto-reloading, if the mechanism has anything fancy up its sleeve that isn't revealed by your whatever your first magical glance was, if there are nearby traps set up to work with it, and so on. A spellcaster who skips this step could easily send their celestial monkey in to set off a trap, only to discover that it auto-reloaded.

If you used a summon or animated undead to set off the trap, you know where it is and what it does, and you have at least a rough idea what sets it off (walking through X area). A little experimentation can usually get you past without too much trouble, depending on the trap. If you're going all-out and using find the path, you know exactly what you have to do in order to get through safely.

And you know what the clincher is, at least for me? Using summons to set off traps is actually more fun than having a rogue search everything. With the summon, you get to see what the trap does, and then figure out the best way around it. A trap can be an interesting encounter. With the rogue, you just creep down the corridor while the rogue takes 20 on her Search checks, and every so often you stop for her to roll Disable Device. Ho hum.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-08-13, 02:02 PM
MAGIC ITEMS MAGIC ITEMS. thats how you stay ahead. wands, dimensional door, cloacks, vestaments, web, mirror image, greater invisabilaty. all that jazz

Telonius
2007-08-13, 02:28 PM
Actually, there is. It's called find the path. It explicitly tells you how to get past every trap on the way to the location you want to reach. Of course, it does require expending a 6th-level spell slot, but that one spell completely obviates any need for a trap-finder.

Find the Path is not a Wizard spell, so Batman cannot cast it. You're now using spells from two primary spellcasters to do something a Rogue can do for free.



If you used a summon or animated undead to set off the trap, you know where it is and what it does, and you have at least a rough idea what sets it off (walking through X area). A little experimentation can usually get you past without too much trouble, depending on the trap. If you're going all-out and using find the path, you know exactly what you have to do in order to get through safely.

And you know what the clincher is, at least for me? Using summons to set off traps is actually more fun than having a rogue search everything. With the summon, you get to see what the trap does, and then figure out the best way around it. A trap can be an interesting encounter. With the rogue, you just creep down the corridor while the rogue takes 20 on her Search checks, and every so often you stop for her to roll Disable Device. Ho hum.

Corridors aren't the only things that are trapped, and an undead wouldn't set off all of the traps. Symbol of Insanity, explosive runes, anything mind-affecting... wouldn't do a thing to it. If your cleric uses "Find the Path," you'd bypass quite a bit of treasure in most cases, and might get yourself into a sticky tactical mess - bad guys coming at you from the corridors you didn't go down. If you go down the subsidiary path to look for treasure, your trap sense would no longer be active, since you've changed the destination of where you're going. You'd have to cast another Find the Path, or summon something else, to avoid the new traps.

Aquillion
2007-08-14, 01:24 PM
Using undead or summons to set off traps has another major problem: There are many traps you don't want to set off at all. If a trap is an alarm, it doesn't help that you just had your zombie trip it. If a trap summons a Balor? Whoops. It's just going to ignore your zombie and start beating on you. Other common possibilities include traps that flood a wide area with poison gas or something else undesirable, and traps that make the entire dungeon harder (by collapsing an area, destroying a door's opening mechanism, collapsing a bridge, activating an AMF, arming a dozen other traps in front of and behind you, dropping a grate on both ends of the corridor and releasing rabid wolves, destroying the treasure chest and the treasure along with it... you get the idea. Not all traps are the poisoned-arrow variety.)

Having a zombie on point also has a lot of other disadvantages vs having a rogue on point. It isn't really good for your PR if you meet any potentially friendly NPCs, you know? Your rogue can make diplomacy and bluff checks as needed, while your zombie groans and mumbles about brains. And it isn't very stealthy, either... your rogue might spot a group of enemies, and come back to let you plan an ambush. Your zombie kills that plan dead, and (if you have it far enough ahead to be safe from the traps it sets off) its shambling is likely going to be letting everyone know you're there even if you're using other spells to scout as well. Your zombie is unable to report on anything usefully, either.

Find the Path has many limitations. You have to know exactly where you're going, so it's no good for general exploration. It won't help you generally loot the area, too... what if your Find the Path leads you right past a a cabinet, a treasure chest, or something like that? What if you want to, you know, wander, explore, or (basically) touch or breath anything at all in the dungeon aside from the things directly necessary to reach your destination?

Worse, Find the Path doesn't take into account any creatures. If the shortest route goes straight through the guard room, or the evil emperor's throne room? Sucks to be you. If it leads through an ancient red dragon's lair? Whoops. If you duck into a side-corridor to avoid a patrol, or have to run from an enemy, your path probably isn't any good anymore. It can help, sure, but it's no substitute for trapfinding.

Regarding scrying + teleport, scrying and other divination spells have limitations of one sort or another. Those scrying spells allow the victim a save and can be blocked or misled by anyone powerful enough to worth using them on. The more general-purpose divinations don't provide good enough information to teleport with, while the more specific ones (like Scrying) provide you with only a view of a small area. Once you arrive, there could still be traps in the immediate area, and you could set them off just through casual actions or while looting after a victory in combat. Perhaps most importantly, that strategy is no good for general exploring, and bypasses any scattered treasure.

Yes, sure, wizards can teleport, but you can't seriously suggest teleporting everywhere, without ever touching, breathing, looking at or otherwise interacting with anything that hasn't been pre-screened by your magic. Adventures just don't work that way... sooner or later you're going to be absent-mindedly walking down a corridor somewhere, or picking up some bit of loot, or rifling through the cupboards... that's when the traps will get you.