At-Will Bard Damage Advice

[Jophiel]

The campaign I'm in has been getting kicked around a bit. We were originally four players but two left. Gone are the warlock and ranger, remaining are the sorcerer and bard (me). We're 5th level and, because of some difficulties earlier, I decided to dip Life Cleric early so I'm a (4) Lore Bard / (1) Life Cleric. I'm planning on staying bard to the end of the campaign. No idea what level we'll wind up at but we're nowhere near done with the current quest yet so if it's 10+ or even 15+, I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, back when we had four players, I could get away with Vicious Mockery in between other things. Now, VM is less effective both in damage and the Disadvantage effect. I took Sacred Flame as one of my cantrips with Cleric so that's 2d8 against a dex save but I only have 13 Wisdom so it's only DC 12. Also I can use it against opponents next to me without issue since it's not a rolled attack, right? With only two of us right now, that's relevant since it's not as though the sorcerer is playing tank.

I also have a magical heavy crossbow, not only granting +1 but also with magical lightness of weight allowing me to disregard the Heavy property (I'm a halfling) and treat it as a light crossbow for proficiency purposes. So that's 1d10+4 damage. Not as good in melee-range combat though. Most of our adventuring has been dungeon-based so not much opportunity for ranged hit and run or using terrain to our advantage to keep at range. I've got a rapier as well but that seems inferior to most other options right now.

So, blah, blah, blah... anything else I should be thinking of to keep hurting things? I'm hoping that we get a couple extra players soon (the two just left prior to the last session and we meet bi-weekly so hopefully someone turns up) and I can go back to more support. I know Eldritch Blast is a classic but hope to use my first Magical Secrets on Aura of Vitality and maybe either Fireball or Revivify. Would it really be worth passing on those for the 2d10 versus the 2d8 of Sacred Flame?

For that matter, given the choice, should my default be the crossbow (+7 to hit, 1d10+4 dmg) or Sacred Flame (Save vs Dex, 2d8 damage)?

[Sigreid]

With my bard I took spell sniper with Eldrich Blast. Not even up to your level yet, but so far it lets me do solid damage without focusing on it too much.

Edut: taking spell sniper let me select EB without spending a secret to get a cantrip.

[Willie the Duck]

For that matter, given the choice, should my default be the crossbow (+7 to hit, 1d10+4 dmg) or Sacred Flame (Save vs Dex, 2d8 damage)?

I'm going to move this to the fore, since it is easiest to answer. Use the crossbow (at range of course) normally. Admittedly more creatures have high AC then have high Dex saves, but not by much (lots of things have high dex saves), and your to-hit is much better than your spell save DC. Plus it is easier to get advantage on attack rolls than to make the enemy have disadvantage on their saves.


I've got a rapier as well but that seems inferior to most other options right now.

So, blah, blah, blah... anything else I should be thinking of to keep hurting things? I'm hoping that we get a couple extra players soon (the two just left prior to the last session and we meet bi-weekly so hopefully someone turns up) and I can go back to more support. I know Eldritch Blast is a classic but hope to use my first Magical Secrets on Aura of Vitality and maybe either Fireball or Revivify. Would it really be worth passing on those for the 2d10 versus the 2d8 of Sacred Flame?

We would need to know your cha modifier to know what your to-hit would be, but right now, even if it was 18 or 20, you'd have roughly the same to-hit as your crossbow, the same issue with range, and the damage would average 11 vs. the 9.5 you are doing now. Short answer, no.

Frankly, I would keep your strategy for magic secrets (I'd vote fireball over revivify, but of course that depends on your sorcerer). Here is the thing (and all of this is behind IMO and YMMV tags)--if you do not get more party members, you should get hirelings or NPCs (or each of you play 2 PCs). Sure, you can simply take on lesser challenges and the DM can throw fewer monsters at you, you can always succeed with anything if you manage the difficulty knobs appropriately, but honestly, why would you want to? A sorcerer (dragon sorc I assume) is a poor replacement for a tank, and probably not having much fun at it. The DM can introduce a couple of heavies that can take the front line roll while you two continue to play the classes you want to. If they're not supposed to be full fledge fighters or barbarians, etc., they can always be some kind of entry for soldiery folk in the MM (like 'bandit captain' or 'knight').

[clash]

As of right now I think the crossbow is your best option.

1d10 + 4 does 9.5 avg damage with a decent to hit bonus
sacred flames 2d8 does avg 9 damage and will be easily resisted on account of your low dc
Rapier is a decent melee option dealing 1d8 + 4? for an average of 8.5 dmg so not too much behind the crossbow

I am guessing you went with College of lore so you wont be getting the dps increase on that of extra attack.

If you have a spare feat magic initiate(warlock) can help you lay down the hurt a bit. Get EB + hex for when you need it.

Alternatively, see if your dm will allow these ua spells. http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf. If you can trade out sacred flame for Toll the Dead then it is a good option. Targets Wisdom which is usually worse. And it can deal in the d12s of damage if the creature is injured.

[Citan]

Hi!

With my bard I took spell sniper with Eldrich Blast. Not even up to your level yet, but so far it lets me do solid damage without focusing on it too much.

Edut: taking spell sniper let me select EB without spending a secret to get a cantrip.
That's exactly what I was gonna recommend if you already have 18 CHA: insanely better range than crossbow and even without Warlock's Invocation it's much better than crossbow because better chance to hit, several attack (from level 5 onwards) that can be focused or distributed, anyway you should get a pretty enough chance to deal at least *some* damage.

Unless you don't like using an attack cantrip, in which case get Frostbite (IIRC) although it targets constitution.

With that said, if you think new players are gonna join soon, maybe it's worth bearing with what you have now (crossbow or Sacred Flame) and wait patiently.

[nickl_2000]

Talk to you DM about it. He may be willing to let you put a save point on your character where it is currently.

If only 2 people keep playing consider spell sniper or a Warlock dip (2 level adds a huge amount of blasting power).

If you pick up more people, then have a build that goes with your original design.

[Specter]

If you're in need of at-will damage, then you should get a d10 cantrip, or even Poison Spray, to keep up. The big deal is not the damage itself, but the increased to-hit via Charisma. The crossbow will tend to get more irrelevant with time, because your attack prowess won't increase.

[Jophiel]

We would need to know your cha modifier to know what your to-hit would be
Sorry, my mistake in leaving it off. Charisma is 18 so DC 15, +7 to-hit mod. Yeah, my Wisdom sort of bites for damage dealing purposes but then I wasn't planning on leaning on Cleric magic for offense when I made the character.


Rapier is a decent melee option dealing 1d8 + 4?
1d8+3, +6 to hit -- The crossbow has the +4 due to the +1 magic property.


Alternatively, see if your dm will allow these ua spells. http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf. If you can trade out sacred flame for Toll the Dead then it is a good option. Targets Wisdom which is usually worse. And it can deal in the d12s of damage if the creature is injured.
Ooh, I like that. And the bell theme sounds sort of bard-ish in its own way. The DM is pretty flexible so he shouldn't have an issue with using UA content or for me flipping out Sacred Flame (we just hit 5th last session and haven't actually used our new abilities yet).

I used my last increase for my CHA bump but I'll keep the Eldritch Blast options in mind for the next one, especially if we haven't settled down with some new characters yet. Looks like little argument that the crossbow is my best default option for the time being. I originally planned my character to stay away from physical weapons unless in dire need as a roleplaying aspect but practicality is going to have to reign until we get more people in the mix. Thanks all for the advice.

[Willie the Duck]

I used my last increase for my CHA bump but I'll keep the Eldritch Blast options in mind for the next one, especially if we haven't settled down with some new characters yet. Looks like little argument that the crossbow is my best default option for the time being. I originally planned my character to stay away from physical weapons unless in dire need as a roleplaying aspect but practicality is going to have to reign until we get more people in the mix. Thanks all for the advice.

Honestly, since your next ASI is level 9 (right about when the difference in damage between xbow and EB will start to matter), that would make sense, but... if nothing has changed by then, my advice would really be go for a 2-level dip into warlock. You can pick up a SCAG cantrip to help with melee and get CHA to damage (and get Cha 20 when you do hit bard 8, admittedly 2 levels later, but not 4 levels later like if you had to pick up spell sniper).

But I really can't imagine that the situation wouldn't change in the meantime.

[KnotaGuru]

How'd you get proficiency in heavy crossbow?

For at-will lore bard damage, take spell sniper feat for Eldritch blast and use a magical secrets slot on spiritual weapon.

[Nifft]

You can also use Magical Initiate: Warlock to grab Eldritch Blast + Booming Blade + Hex, all casting with Charisma.

That covers both ranged and melee.

[Jophiel]

How'd you get proficiency in heavy crossbow?
I didn't. It was a magical weapon with a +1 bonus and is magically lightened so it doesn't have the Heavy property and is treated as a light crossbow for proficiency purposes (DM created item, I assume).

[RSP]

Isn't the only option, but if you need to do damage and don't have a dedicated tank, 2 levels of Warlock get you Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast (1d10+Chr) for damage and Repelling Blast to maintain distance. A 2 level cost but both your damage and pushback will scale as you level.

[Malifice]

The campaign I'm in has been getting kicked around a bit. We were originally four players but two left. Gone are the warlock and ranger, remaining are the sorcerer and bard (me). We're 5th level and, because of some difficulties earlier, I decided to dip Life Cleric early so I'm a (4) Lore Bard / (1) Life Cleric. I'm planning on staying bard to the end of the campaign. No idea what level we'll wind up at but we're nowhere near done with the current quest yet so if it's 10+ or even 15+, I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, back when we had four players, I could get away with Vicious Mockery in between other things. Now, VM is less effective both in damage and the Disadvantage effect. I took Sacred Flame as one of my cantrips with Cleric so that's 2d8 against a dex save but I only have 13 Wisdom so it's only DC 12. Also I can use it against opponents next to me without issue since it's not a rolled attack, right? With only two of us right now, that's relevant since it's not as though the sorcerer is playing tank.

I also have a magical heavy crossbow, not only granting +1 but also with magical lightness of weight allowing me to disregard the Heavy property (I'm a halfling) and treat it as a light crossbow for proficiency purposes. So that's 1d10+4 damage. Not as good in melee-range combat though. Most of our adventuring has been dungeon-based so not much opportunity for ranged hit and run or using terrain to our advantage to keep at range. I've got a rapier as well but that seems inferior to most other options right now.

So, blah, blah, blah... anything else I should be thinking of to keep hurting things? I'm hoping that we get a couple extra players soon (the two just left prior to the last session and we meet bi-weekly so hopefully someone turns up) and I can go back to more support. I know Eldritch Blast is a classic but hope to use my first Magical Secrets on Aura of Vitality and maybe either Fireball or Revivify. Would it really be worth passing on those for the 2d10 versus the 2d8 of Sacred Flame?

For that matter, given the choice, should my default be the crossbow (+7 to hit, 1d10+4 dmg) or Sacred Flame (Save vs Dex, 2d8 damage)?

2 levels of Warlock works for at will (EB+Hex+Cha to damage). Fey Pact (or radiant) fits the bill for your Character.

But Bards in general suck for at will damage. Its their main (indeed only) weakness.

[Chugger]

What about a valor bard with longbow and the SS feat? I'm not sure I like it, but it kind of wants to work.

I guess you go var hu and pick ss feat. I don't think you can easily buff yourself (is there one? you give inspiring words to others iirc). I suppose at high levels you could steal or get another feat to get bless or something.

But there are problems with this. You want Dex to be good at the bow but Cha to be good at casting. Some rounds you use magic, some rounds you take two shots with the bow. It's not the worst thing in the world, but are you upping Dex or Cha to 20 first?

I'm guessing this is not the best way for most people to go.

[Nifft]

Valor Bard + Bow can work great. You just want to plunder the Ranger list a bit (e.g. Hunter's Mark).

[Malifice]

Valor Bard + Bow can work great. You just want to plunder the Ranger list a bit (e.g. Hunter's Mark).

Swift quiver for the win.

4 attacks a round dealing 1d10 + 15 + (arrow and bow) damage.

I level dip into Fighter for archery F/S a must. Might as well go 2 for action surge, or 3 for superiority dice to really ace it out.

[Saiga]

Not that that does much for the OP's Lore Bard.

[Malifice]

Not that that does much for the OP's Lore Bard.

Lore bard is the best choice (if dipping Fighter).

All the valor stuff is redundant with fighter levels.

[Chugger]

Yeah I can see a dip like that making it work.

But it's still weird. And MAD. You can at least get the feat out of the way at lvl 1 w/ var hu. But do you have weak casting stats and a weak ST to your cool bard spells because you upped Dex? Or do you have gimped bow stats because you upped Cha? Sure at high level it equals out but most of us won't ever get there. That's the problem with that level of theory-craft, at least imho.

But the right early dip could make lowish and mid levels okay for this (but you'll still be mad).

[Saiga]

Lore bard is the best choice (if dipping Fighter).

All the valor stuff is redundant with fighter levels.

5 levels isn't a dip at the player's current level, which is the only way of getting Extra Attack.

Also goes way, way against the OPs desire to stick with Bard levels.

[Aymon]

You can also use Magical Initiate: Warlock to grab Eldritch Blast + Booming Blade + Hex, all casting with Charisma.

That covers both ranged and melee.

This is what I would suggest -even with four players there will be times you need a melee attack.

Plus he has other utility with it's pact on skills....

[Citan]

You can also use Magical Initiate: Warlock to grab Eldritch Blast + Booming Blade + Hex, all casting with Charisma.

That covers both ranged and melee.
I don't think that would be that great of an idea honestly, since OP does have a kinda weak AC (so Booming Blade means you are in danger zone) and Hex is a spell that will compete with oh that many great concentration Bard spells (on the plus side, it's great outside of combat too ;)).

So if OP was going for Magic Initiate, I'd rather suggest Sorcerer actually: Mage Armor means immediate +2 AC bump (not great, but not that bad either) or Shield for a one-time emergency defense, Firebolt although not as great as Eldricht Blast does provide a good range (or he could go for Ray of Frost for lesser range but less resisted damage and useful rider), and Shocking Grasp would be much better for melee (damage AND disengage).

But seriously? I'd really advise OP to just...
- Keep straight Bard and pick a feat he just wants for his character concept and not necessarily shoring up damage if there is a good chance other players will come soon.
- Just pick Eldricht Blast with Spell Sniper and be done with it.
- Or delay 6th or 7th Bard level to take a one level dip in Sorcerer (Shield, Chromatic Orb, Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost/Firebolt, Mage Hand/Minor Illusion) or Fiend Warlock (Armor of Agathys, Hex, Eldricht Blast, Command, Burning Hands, Frostbite/Chill Touch, Mold Earth/Mage Hand/Minor Illusion).

[Willie the Duck]

I also would not go the magic initiate route. Let's not forget that the 1st level spell (be it shield, mage armor, or hex) is 1/day, and this team needs consistent support.

A 1 level dip into fighter or sorcerer would be quicker than 2 into warlock, although they have their own costs. Fighter would give the best AC, but since he's Dex based, he won't be using a 2h weapon, and since he doesn't have war caster, he won't be picking up a shield much (unless, again, he gives up using his bardic stuff in combat). It's quite the pickle they are in, which is why I keep suggesting finding a way to get some front-liners instead and keep on keeping on with the character concept.

[Sigreid]

It also depends on how far the game will go. If you think it will go all the way, it's hard to give up the level 18 secrets. If you aren't going that far, who cares?

[Jophiel]

I don't think that would be that great of an idea honestly, since OP does have a kinda weak AC
Currently 17, having taken advantage of the medium armor proficiency from my cleric dip and investing in half-plate. With strength as a dump stat, I don't see me ever using heavy armor.


It's quite the pickle they are in, which is why I keep suggesting finding a way to get some front-liners instead and keep on keeping on with the character concept.
I'm fairly sure that's what will happen since we're looking for other players and there's usually more players than DMs around. As it turns out, I'm missing the next session due to a concert so it'll be a month before my next game. This is also a big part of why I'm loathe to start dipping other classes -- we only play twice a month so I'd really like to spend my time growing my bard as a bard. It was bitter enough to delay my Inspiration upgrades but I thought the total benefits of the cleric dip (extra healing, spells, better damage cantrip than VM, armor, etc) warranted the delay. But I'd hate to delay another two levels for a Warlock dip or similar.

I think my plan for now will be to swap out Sacred Flame for Toll the Dead, use the crossbow as my primary and strongly consider Spell Sniper (Eldritch Blast) for my next ASI. By then, I assume we'll at least have more bodies. If we're damage heavy by that point, I'll reconsider the ASI and go another route. It might not be technically the strongest option but I think it's the option that works best for me. Thanks for all the advice as it helped a lot for seeing my options.

[Saiga]

Also worth mentioning, you can pick up Toll the Dead as a Warlock cantrip with Magic Initiate to use CHA instead of WIS. Weaker than EB in most scenarios, but can be used in meleeand fits the Bard's theme well.

I'm planning on using it over EB on my next CoS character (pure Lore Bard) for my at-will damage option purely because it's so thematic.

[Talionis]

Best suggestion so far is the two level dip in Warlock for Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Blast and Hex. That plus your heavy armor from Life Cleric should help a lot in survivability and damage.

But in general its very hard to play DnD with just two characters. The sorcerer may need to shoreup some of his weaknesses. Options you might suggest:

1. Add Players
2. Ask DM to let you each run two characters each, so that your party gets back up to four characters.
3. Ask your DM to let you jump up 4 character levels, add in your Warlock levels, this will allow the characters to fill in their holes with multiclass and higher level and number of spells. Possibly this could be through growth like going to a college or working in the military, etc where you pass some time quickly and time skip. Maybe your DM could give you a mission that's impossible to do by attacking but if you can avoid fights then you get a huge chunk of XP.
4. Let your DM run 2 NPC's to help balance out the campaign for a while. This is a really bad option, but sometimes you run with the bad option. This might let the Bard get away with his current setup till you can level enough to have two levels of Warlock to give you viable damage.

Lore Bard maybe the lowest DPR class in the game. Its an awesome class, especially in big groups where it can help the other characters.

[Nifft]

I don't think that would be that great of an idea honestly, since OP does have a kinda weak AC (so Booming Blade means you are in danger zone)

I see this echoed in a couple of comments, so I want to clear up any misunderstandings.

Failing to plan for melee will not prevent melee from happening to you.

Planning to have a melee option doesn't mean you have to plan on being in melee, and it doesn't increase your chance of being in melee. It means you can continue to contribute when the situation arises for reasons beyond your control.

Every Wizard I've ever seen has a plan for melee which they hope never gets used.

You plan for situations which you hope to avoid, because sometimes you are not able to avoid them.


Is Booming Blade the best answer? Nah, it's just one answer. There are plenty of others.

Another way to go might be Magic Initiate: Wizard for Shocking Grasp, Acid Splash, and Find Familiar.

[Talionis]

I see this echoed in a couple of comments, so I want to clear up any misunderstandings.

Failing to plan for melee will not prevent melee from happening to you.

Planning to have a melee option doesn't mean you have to plan on being in melee, and it doesn't increase your chance of being in melee. It means you can continue to contribute when the situation arises for reasons beyond your control.

Every Wizard I've ever seen has a plan for melee which they hope never gets used.

You plan for situations which you hope to avoid, because sometimes you are not able to avoid them.


Is Booming Blade the best answer? Nah, it's just one answer. There are plenty of others.

Another way to go might be Magic Initiate: Wizard for Shocking Grasp, Acid Splash, and Find Familiar.

You might consider a one level dip in Sorcerer of some kind, especially if the 2-3 levels of Warlock are unpalatable. A level dip in sorcerer won't be a problem since you have the Charisma to get into it. It can give you reasonable melee spells like Shocking Grasp and a better main cantrip. A level of Sorcerer won't throw off your casting progression and it will better round out the spells you know.

2 or 3 levels of Warlock are a very strong dip. 2 levels gets you the strongest cantrip in the game and an invocation that makes it do even more damage and Hex to further increase your damage. A 3 level dip grants you 2 second level spells that recharge at every short rest, grants you access to 2nd level spells and you get a bevy of choices (Bladelock, Chainlock, or Tomelock). Tomelock is a good all around choice because you can get Find Familiar for free and you get Shilleigheigh activated by Charisma for melee.

But if you aren't wanting to do a dip larger than 1 level in another class then I'd strongly consider the benefits of a level of Sorcerer. Because no matter what you'll want a cantrip that works off Charisma.

Don't forget you have access to Heavy Armor from Life Cleric.

[KnotaGuru]

Why dip at all? Screw that! Damage isn't the bard's forte so embrace what you do well, shutting enemies down! Get yourself an instrument of the bards, use hypnotic pattern to incapacitate emenies in a 30' cube with disadvantage to save. Kill them off one by one. Use cutting words to lower enemy initiative and later on peerless skill on yourself to ensure you go first. Have the sorc dip paladin 2 for smites and let him be the damage dealer. You're both playing charismatic classes, talk/decieve/intimidate your way out of sticky situations. Use your spells (invisibility/disguise) to avoid bad guys. Just adapt your playing style and have fun with it :)

[wilhelmdubdub]

I have a lore bard and at level 6 I took guiding bolt and Spiritual weapon. You can shoot your xbow or melee weapon on your first turn of combat, then on your bonus you can cast spiritual weapon for 1D8 + Cha, 2D8 with a 4th level spell slot. Then on the next turn you want to cast either guiding bolt in ranged, or dissonant whispers if in melee then spiritual weapon on the bonus action. Save your inspirations for cutting words, and you have good action economy using your action, bonus action, and reaction. I like spiritual weapon because you get 12 rounds out of one spell slot, not concentration, good in melee or ranged, and can move 20ft. Guiding bolt scales really well, its still good late game and will benefit from spell sniper like the other posters above suggested and can use eldritch blast to save spell slots later. Make sure the sorcerer has counterspell, and by level 11 (bard 10) you can get it too just in case. With these 2 spells next level your DPR will go up quite a bit.