Playtest request: Nahal's Reckless Dweomer

[8wGremlin]

I wanted to give some more versatility and flavour to Wild Mages, I thought that this might be a good starting point.

I'd like feedback on 'paper play' and feedback on 'actual play'

Wild Magic Sorcerer: Add the following feature at level 2.



Nahal's Reckless Dweomer
As an action you can convert spell points to spell slots on a one to one basis.
However if you use one of these spell slots (by casting a spell or expend a spell slot etc) you immediately cause a Wild Surge (roll on the wild surge table PHB pg:104).

You can only create spell slots that you could normally create.

e.g.
1 sp can create a 1st level spell slot
5 sp can create a 5th level spell slot.

[Lawful Good]

I like this, but the wording is weird. This feature does two things:
1) It buffs the Sorcerer's Font of Magic, and
2) Gives the Wild Mage more wild surges.
There's nothing wrong with either of these, but I would word it so that it's clear that the conversion rate overrides the default one.


Nahal's Reckless Dweomer
Your Flexible Casting feature is changed so that you may convert sorcery points to slots, or vice versa, on a 1:1 basis, up to 5th level spell slots.
Ex: You may, as an action on your turn, convert one sorcery point into one first level spell slot.

Whenever you expend one of these slots, you immediately cause a Wild Surge (roll on the wild surge table PHB pg:104).

[TheUser]

Considering someone mapped out how wild surges have 2/3 neutral-beneficial effects and 1/3 negative (so I've read here) it strikes me as odd that being able to auto surge and have insane slot efficiency isn't something you think would just break the class.

At a glance, this requires zero play testing because it's too good.

EDIT: it also gives wild mages the equivalent of spell points, which are a variant for a reason (Really really powerful QED).

[8wGremlin]

Considering someone mapped out how wild surges have 2/3 neutral-beneficial effects and 1/3 negative (so I've read here) it strikes me as odd that being able to auto surge and have insane slot efficiency isn't something you think would just break the class.

At a glance, this requires zero play testing because it's too good.

EDIT: it also gives wild mages the equivalent of spell points, which are a variant for a reason (Really really powerful QED).

Thank you for the feedback.

How would you improve it?

[TheUser]

After completing a long rest you may choose up to your charisma modifier in spell slots to become Reckless.

When you expend one of these Reckless spell slots to cast a sorcerer spell it triggers a wild surge.

Spell slots can only be affected by this ability until you finish a long rest before returning to normal.

[8wGremlin]

After completing a long rest you may choose up to your charisma modifier in spell slots to become Reckless.

When you expend one of these Reckless spell slots to cast a sorcerer spell it triggers a wild surge.

Spell slots can only be affected by this ability until you finish a long rest before returning to normal.

Interesting.

Are you going under the assumption that a wild surge is a good thing?
Also to me pre-planning which slots are wild surges slots feel more like a wizard kind of thing and goes against the theme of the wild mage, in my opinion, which is fast and loose.


perhaps we could approach this a different way,

Assumptions & premises
1) Wild surges have a roughly 2/3 bonus or good effect (need to check this)
2) They are a gamble, there is a chance that it is very bad
3) Wild surges are the RESULT, or INHERENT in the casting of a spell
4) Actively triggering a Wild Surge should be in the control of the Player not the DM (they have enough on their plate)
5) Reward players for sticking with the sorcerer class, and not makinging it just a dip
6) the limit of wild surges are the negative side of the wild surge.


Suggestions:
Order the Wild Surge table so that good benefits are high rolls, and bad are low rolls.

Have a way to cast a spell with a wild surge, with say a bonus to to the roll equal to Sorcerer level


When you cast a spell you can declare that you are casting recklessly, you cast the spell as normal, but immediately trigger a Wild surge on the Ordered Wild Surge table you get to add your sorcerer level to this role.


Options for a limit, if we need this?

You can cast recklessly Cha Mod times (minimum 1) times per Rest

[SharkForce]

the version i was going to use, is that you expend a level 1 spell slot, then roll on the wild surge table. choose one number on that table to remove and replace the result of that roll with a level 1 spell of your choice from the sorcerer (and/or wizard?) spell lists, under your control.

for every level higher the spell slot you expend becomes, you get to replace one additional number (all numbers must be adjacent to each other; you could choose 1 through 5, but not 1,2, 7, 8, and 12) and the level of the spell you add to the table can be one level higher.

depending on your tastes, you may prefer to tweak some things; only allowing either odd or even numbers so that no individual result on the wild surge table completely disappears, for example, or starting off with more numbers replaced (but don't go too high to start with; it was called nahal's *reckless* dweomer for a reason, the most likely result was still just a wild surge).

feel free to steal whatever you want.

[8wGremlin]

the version i was going to use, is that you expend a level 1 spell slot, then roll on the wild surge table. choose one number on that table to remove and replace the result of that roll with a level 1 spell of your choice from the sorcerer (and/or wizard?) spell lists, under your control.

for every level higher the spell slot you expend becomes, you get to replace one additional number (all numbers must be adjacent to each other; you could choose 1 through 5, but not 1,2, 7, 8, and 12) and the level of the spell you add to the table can be one level higher.

depending on your tastes, you may prefer to tweak some things; only allowing either odd or even numbers so that no individual result on the wild surge table completely disappears, for example, or starting off with more numbers replaced (but don't go too high to start with; it was called nahal's *reckless* dweomer for a reason, the most likely result was still just a wild surge).

feel free to steal whatever you want.


Some interesting Ideas there.

One of the guiding principles i try to adhere to in game design is keeping it simple.
what ever the rule happens to turn out like, it should be concise, intuitive and easily understood by all, with little or no ambiguity

(you can tell I'm a UX Consultant)

[Saeviomage]

The original nahals was "spend a level 1 slot, get a surge and a slim chance at a level 1 spell". So I'd just replace the "surge every round for a minute" slot with the decided spell.

[BrainFreeze]

The original nahals was "spend a level 1 slot, get a surge and a slim chance at a level 1 spell". So I'd just replace the "surge every round for a minute" slot with the decided spell.

You should check the Tome of Magic again. The original Nahals was "spend a level 1 slot, get a surge and a slim change to cast any spell the wizard could cast(had in their spell book)." What this meant was that a wizard with access to 9th level spells could Nahals a Wish in an attempt to cast the spell without paying the XP or material costs.

[SharkForce]

You should check the Tome of Magic again. The original Nahals was "spend a level 1 slot, get a surge and a slim change to cast any spell the wizard could cast(had in their spell book)." What this meant was that a wizard with access to 9th level spells could Nahals a Wish in an attempt to cast the spell without paying the XP or material costs.

yeah, but getting a level 9 spell out of a level 1 slot is pretty broken :P

that's why in my version i tried to go for that feel (opening up the entire spell list since wild sorcerers don't have spellbooks, and they should definitely be able to make use of this if anyone can) but limited the spell you were trying to create to the slot you were trying to use.

the original version also let you add your level to the wild surge roll... it wasn't clear, but i assumed that meant if you got higher than 100, you got the spell, which is why i also had increasing the spell slot expended increase your chance of getting the result you want :)

i feel like it's a pretty faithful conversion in spirit, but much less broken than a literal conversion. now, whether it's fully balanced or not... i haven't tested it nearly enough to know for sure.

[8wGremlin]

I think the old wild surge table was like this:
and would need some tinkering to bring it up to 5e.
(some things are switched around now, like Initiative, and THAC0)




1
Wall of force appears in front of caster


2
Caster smells like a skunk for spell duration


3
Caster shoots forth eight non-poisonous snakes from fingertips. Snakes do not attack.


4
Caster's clothes itch (+2 to initiative)


5
Caster glows as per a light spell


6
Spell effect has 60' radius centered on caster


7
Next phrase spoken by caster becomes true, lasting for 1 turn


8
Caster's hair grows one foot in length


9
Caster pivots 180 degrees


10
Caster's face is blackened by small explosion


11
Caster develops allergy to his magical items. Character cannot control sneezing until all magical items are removed. Allergy lasts 1d6 turns


12
Caster's head enlarges for 1d3 turns


13
Caster reduces (reversed enlarge) for 1d3 turns


14
Caster falls madly in love with target until a dispel magic or remove curse is cast


15
Spell cannot be canceled at will by caster


16
Caster polymorphs randomly


17
Colorful bubbles come out of caster's mouth instead of words. Words are released when bubbles pop. Spells with verbal components cannot be cast for 1 turn.


18
Reversed tongues affects all within 60 feet of caster


19
Wall of fire encircles caster


20
Caster's feet enlarge, reducing movement to half normal and adding +4 to initiative rolls for 1d3 turns


21
Caster suffers same spell effect as target


22
Caster levitates 20' for 1d4 turns


23
Cause fear with 60' radius centered on caster. All within radius except the caster must make a saving throw.


24
Caster speaks in a squeaky voice for 1d6 days


25
Caster gains X-ray vision for 1d6 rounds


26
Caster ages 10 years


27
Silence, 15' radius centers on caster


28
10'x10' pit appears immediately in front of caster, 5' deep per level of the caster


29
Reverse gravity beneath caster's feet for 1 round


30
Colored streamers pour from caster's fingertips


31
Spell effect rebounds on caster


32
Caster becomes invisible


33
Color spray from caster's fingertips


34
Stream of butterflies pours from caster's mouth


35
Caster leaves monster-shaped footprints instead of his own until a dispel magic is cast


36
3-30 gems shoot from caster's fingertips. Each gem is worth 1d6 x 10 gp.


37
Music fills the air


38
Create food and water


39
All normal fires within 60' of caster are extinguished


40
One magical item within 30' of caster (randomly chosen) is permanently drained


41
One normal item within 30' of caster (randomly chosen) becomes permanently magical


42
All magical weapons within 30' of caster are increased by +2 for 1 turn


43
Smoke trickles from the ears of all creatures within 60' of caster for 1 turn


44
Dancing lights


45
All creatures within 30' of caster begin to hiccup (+1 to casting times, -1 to THAC0)


46
All normal doors, secret doors, portcullises, etc. (including those locked or barred) within 60' of caster swing open


47
Caster and target exchange place


48
Spell affects random target within 60' of the caster


49
Spell fails but is not wiped from caster's mind


50
Monster summoning II is cast


51
Sudden change in weather (temperature rise, snow, rain, etc.) lasting 1d6 turns


52
Deafening bang affects everyone within 60'. All those who can hear must save vs. spell or be stunned for 1d3 rounds


53
Caster and target exchange voices until a remove curse is cast


54
Gate opens to randomly chosen outer plane; 50% chance for extra-planar creature to appear.


55
Spell functions but shrieks like a shrieker


56
Spell effectiveness (range, duration, area of effect, damage, etc.) decreases 50%


57
Spell reversed, if reverse is possible


58
Spell takes physical form of free-willed elemental and cannot be controlled by caster. Elemental remains for duration of spell. Touch of the elemental causes spell effect (THAC0 equal to caster's).


59
All weapons within 60' of caster glow for 1d4 rounds


60
Spell functions; any applicable saving throw is not allowed


61
Spell appears to fail when cast, but occurs 1-4 rounds later


62
All magical items within 60' of caster glow for 2d8 days


63
Caster and target switch personalities for 2d10 rounds


64
Slow spell centered on target


65
Target deluded


66
Lightning bolt shoots toward target


67
Target enlarged


68
Darkness centered on target


69
Plant growth centered on target


70
1,000 lbs. of non-living matter within 10' of target vanishes


71
Fireball centers on target


72
Target turns to stone


73
Spell is cast; material components and memory of spell are retained


74
Everyone within 10' of caster receives the benefits of a heal


75
Target becomes dizzy (-4 AC and THAC0, cannot cast spells) for 2d4 rounds


76
Wall of fire encircles target


77
Target levitates 20' for 1d3 turns


78
Target suffers blindness


79
Target is charmed as per charm monster


80
Target forgets


81
Target's feet enlarge, reducing movement to half normal and adding +4 to all initiative rolls for 1-3 turns


82
Rust monster appears in front of target


83
Target polymorphs randomly


84
Target falls madly in love with caster until a dispel magic or remove curse is cast.


85
Target changes sex


86
Small, black raincloud forms over target


87
Stinking cloud centers on target


88
Heavy object (boulder, anvil, safe, etc.) appears over target and falls for 2d20 points of damage


89
Target begins sneezing. No spells can be cast until fit passes (1d6 rounds).


90
Spell effect has 60' radius centered on target (all within radius suffer the effect)


91
Target's clothes itch (+2 to initiative for 1d10 rounds)


92
Target's race randomly changes until canceled by dispel magic


93
Target turns ethereal for 2d4 rounds


94
Target hastened


95
All cloth on target crumbles to dust


96
Target sprouts leaves (no damage caused, can be pruned without harm)


97
Target sprouts new useless appendage (wings, arm, ear, etc.) which remains until dispel magic is cast


98
Target changes color (canceled by dispel magic)


99
Spell has a minimum duration of 1 turn (i.e., a fireball creates a ball of flame that remains for 1 turn, a lightning bolt bounces and continues, possibly rebounding, for 1 turn, etc.)


100
Spell effectiveness (range, duration, area of effect, damage, etc.) increases 200%

[DevilMcam]

I would go with someting like this :

Wild Sorcerer's add this spell to the list of spells they can chose from: (this is not a sorcerer spell and therefor can not be aquired through magic initiate and similare class features)

Nahal's Reckless Dweomer :
1st level evocation
Casting time : 1 action
Range : self
Components : V, S, (maybe add a M one)
You attempt to cast a spell that you know with a casting time of 1 action, it need to be a spell of a level that you have spells slots for, but you don't need to have unexpended spells slots of that level to cast it via Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, Spells that can be cast at several levels are cast at their lowest level.
Make a spellcasting ability check with no proficiency bonus with a DC of 10 plus the level of the spell you attemptet to cast, if you succeed you successfully cast the spell, and can chose its targets according to the spells description. To attempt to cast a spell with material components that can not be substitued with a focus the DC is 14 plus the level of the spell you attemptet to cast.
If you fail the ability check you get a wild surge. The DM roll or choose the effect of this surge for you and no features you have can affect this roll or choice, additional effect can occure at the DM discretion.
If you use the "tides of chaos" feature to get advantage on this roll you get an additional wild surge as if you failed the roll, but you can still succed and cast the desired spell, this can lead to 2 simultaneous wild surges if you fail.

At higher level : when you cast this spell using a 2nd spell slot or higher you can cast the attemptet spell as if it was cast with a spell slot of one higher level and with a DC dificulty increased by one for each slot level above 1st.


Examples :
if you cast Nahal's Reckless Dweomer at level 3, you can try to cast "Fireball" as a 5th level if you know the firball spell and have 5th level spells slots (expended or not). The DC to cast this would be 15.

The exact wording might need a bit of work.
You could try to use this to cast the wish spell using a level 1 slot, as long as you could normally cast it with a lvl 9 slot, but you only have around 25% chance of success doing so.
I don't feel like it would be completely broken as you actually have less spell known than a regular sorcerer if you choose this one, and is still weaker than spell points.

give me your though about this

[SharkForce]

I would go with someting like this :

Wild Sorcerer's add this spell to the list of spells they can chose from: (this is not a sorcerer spell and therefor can not be aquired through magic initiate and similare class features)

Nahal's Reckless Dweomer :
1st level evocation
Casting time : 1 action
Range : self
Components : V, S, (maybe add a M one)
You attempt to cast a spell that you know with a casting time of 1 action, it need to be a spell of a level that you have spells slots for, but you don't need to have unexpended spells slots of that level to cast it via Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, Spells that can be cast at several levels are cast at their lowest level.
Make a spellcasting ability check with no proficiency bonus with a DC of 10 plus the level of the spell you attemptet to cast, if you succeed you successfully cast the spell, and can chose its targets according to the spells description. To attempt to cast a spell with material components that can not be substitued with a focus the DC is 14 plus the level of the spell you attemptet to cast.
If you fail the ability check you get a wild surge. The DM roll or choose the effect of this surge for you and no features you have can affect this roll or choice, additional effect can occure at the DM discretion.
If you use the "tides of chaos" feature to get advantage on this roll you get an additional wild surge as if you failed the roll, but you can still succed and cast the desired spell, this can lead to 2 simultaneous wild surges if you fail.

At higher level : when you cast this spell using a 2nd spell slot or higher you can cast the attemptet spell as if it was cast with a spell slot of one higher level and with a DC dificulty increased by one for each slot level above 1st.


Examples :
if you cast Nahal's Reckless Dweomer at level 3, you can try to cast "Fireball" as a 5th level if you know the firball spell and have 5th level spells slots (expended or not). The DC to cast this would be 15.

The exact wording might need a bit of work.
You could try to use this to cast the wish spell using a level 1 slot, as long as you could normally cast it with a lvl 9 slot, but you only have around 25% chance of success doing so.
I don't feel like it would be completely broken as you actually have less spell known than a regular sorcerer if you choose this one, and is still weaker than spell points.

give me your though about this

overpowered in isolation. completely and utterly broken with party support or multiclass builds.

there is no way to make getting a level 9 spell out of a level 1 spell slot balanced. not even if you will probably wild surge, because that just means you try a few extra times. now tack on things like, say, a multiclass lore bard/sorcerer using glibness to guarantee a minimum roll of 23 (or more, if you can get bless, guidance, bardic inspiration, etc) even if proficiency bonus is not added and you basically have "every spell slot is a level 9 or higher spell slot".

trying to capture the feel of earlier edition spells is great, but you also have to pay attention to the different design principles of 5th edition D&D.

[Saeviomage]

You should check the Tome of Magic again. The original Nahals was "spend a level 1 slot, get a surge and a slim change to cast any spell the wizard could cast(had in their spell book)."

You're right, and it's totally bonkers, even with the 5+% chance of casting the spell. For a 5e version, I'd avoid it. I guess you could scale the spell to allow higher levels from a higher level slot but... it's just a trap. A first level slot for a surge is workable. A second level slot is... questionable. Third or higher? No way.

[8wGremlin]

Hench I was looking for a way to make a clear and concise mechanic that gave a predominantly good benefit.



The convert <level in spell points> to a level slot, allows the casting of the spell, but also causes a surge.


I believed that the player isn't necessarily after the surge effect, but it is a key reason by they went Wild Mage in the first place.

I also make it that if you use this surge slot for anything, it would cause a wild surge. possibly deterring, or encouraging their use for Sorcadins etc.

Hence Why I'd like the actual play test info, if anyone is kind enough to run with it.

[Lombra]

What if you always triggered magic surge upon expending sorcery points?

[8wGremlin]

What if you always triggered magic surge upon expending sorcery points?

that's not a bad idea...

I might go further and say that you get to modify the roll, by your + or - CHA MOD

pro's
* based on Sorcerer level due to # of Sorcery points
* simple rule

con's
* always surging

[DevilMcam]

overpowered in isolation. completely and utterly broken with party support or multiclass builds

I admit I did not have multiclass or party support in mind.


there is no way to make getting a level 9 spell out of a level 1 spell slot balanced.

I am not that worried about very high level use of this spell because at high level everything is open to abuse. Let me try the following fix.

---

Wild Sorcerer's add this spell to the list of spells they can chose from: (this is not a sorcerer spell and therefor can not be aquired through magic initiate and similare class features)

Nahal's Reckless Dweomer :
1st level evocation
Casting time : 1 action
Range : self
Components : V, S, (maybe add a M one)
You attempt to cast a spell that you know with a casting time of 1 action, it need to be a spell of a level that you have spells slots for, but you don't need to have unexpended spells slots of that level to cast it via Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, Spells that can be cast at several levels are cast at their lowest level.
Roll a D20, this spell calling upon the very essence of chaos, you can not get advantage, disadvantage, reroll, add modifiers of any kinds, or treat the result as a different one by any means. If the result is superior or equal to 10+ the level of the spell you attemptet to cast, you succesfully cast it.

If the result is lower than 10+the level of the spell you attemptet to cast, you get a wild surge and until you finish a long rest, any time you attempt to cast this same spell, be it through Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, or using your regular spellcasting ability the effects of the spell are replaced by a wild surge.

If you attempt to cast Nahal's Reckless Dweomer through Nahal's Reckless Dweomer do not roll anything, Instead you instantanly get a wild surge and, until you finish a long rest, when you cast Nahal's Recless Dweomer its effects are replaced by a wild surge.

At higher level : when you cast this spell using a 2nd spell slot or higher you can cast the attemptet spell as if it was cast with a spell slot of one higher level and with a DC dificulty increased by one for each slot level above 1st.

---
As before wording can improved.
This let you convert any slot to a direct wild surge or attempt to cast any spell through a lower spell slot (with lower probability than previously) with the risk of not beeing able to cast it again until you finish a long rest.

thoughs?

[SharkForce]

it doesn't have to be a level 9 spell to be broken. it just needs to be substantially more than level 1. your highest level of spell slots are supposed to be a precious resource, not something you just casually get from blowing level 1 spells.

the higher level benefit is even more absurdly broken too. DC increases like that are essentially impossible to balance because they smash bounded accuracy on the ground and then stomp on the ashes, and a level 4 spell slot shouldn't have a chance to give you a level 9 mass suggestion.

a level 20 sorcerer normally gets ONE level 9 spell slot per day. one. that's it. no more. if your subclass proposes giving that value, except starting at level 9 (when you can use a level 5 nahal's reckless dweomer to get a level 5 spell cast out of a level 9 slot), you've got problems. if it's giving out up to 22 spell slots of level 9 *or higher* at level 20, you have serious problems.

this spell cannot exist in its original form and remain reasonable in 5th edition. you need to make a new version that keeps some of the ideas and the feel of the original, but not the completely broken nonsense.