Why is misty step a 2nd level spell?

[thoroughlyS]

So, misty step is a very versatile spell, for both general utility and in combat. Teleporting as a bonus action affords great battlefield manipulation without interfering with your turn. But is it really strong enough to require 2nd-level?

Healing word is another incredibly useful spell: bonus action to cast, allows you to pick up a party member, can be used out of combat for added utility, has an instantaneous effect, but it is 1st-level. By comparison, the other 2nd-level bonus action non-concentration spell is spiritual weapon, which allows for bonus action attacks for 1 minute (roughly one combat).

The reason I ask is because I was looking through the different races recently, and I noticed the eladrin (I've seen them before - mind you - but never really considered the weight of their existence). Compared to the high elf, they trade a wizard cantrip and a language for a 2nd-level spell usable once per short rest. In principle, I don't feel comfortable giving a player access to an ability at 1st level, which they normally wouldn't receive until 3rd level. But misty step doesn't trigger this feeling in me. Nothing about it feels game changing enough to hold off until 3rd level.

Is there a critical reason misty step is a 2nd-level spell? How would the game be impacted if it were available at 1st level?

[lunaticfringe]

It's comparable to Cunning Action Dash? It's better but it costs a resource and comes online a smidge later to make up for it.

That's my attempt at finding logic anyway.

[mephnick]

I think because it would be too good of a resource as a 1st level spell since it never needs to be upcast and stays just as effective from level 3-20. Not many wizards will be using their level 1 slots for much at 10th level, but now they get to Misty Step away every time something manages to get to them. Even the great Shield loses effectiveness as you level because of how attack modifiers skyrocket for monsters. I think setting it at 2nd level let's it be used when you need it, but still makes you weigh the use of the spellslot at higher level.

[alchahest]

also casting as a bonus action can be very useful to casting classes that don't normally have bonus action stuff every turn. it does limit your action to a cantrip, but it's still quite potent, you can pop out of a grapple and cast firebolt or blade ward, or whatever

[thoroughlyS]

I think because it would be too good of a resource as a 1st level spell since it never needs to be upcast and stays just as effective from level 3-20. Not many wizards will be using their level 1 slots for much at 10th level, but now they get to Misty Step away every time something manages to get to them. Even the great Shield loses effectiveness as you level because of how attack modifiers skyrocket for monsters. I think setting it at 2nd level let's it be used when you need it, but still makes you weigh the use of the spellslot at higher level.
Ah, I had not considered that its staying power is what puts it a cut above spells like shield. But I still think that it becomes basically as good as healing word, the default 1st-level slot burner for clerics, which stays about as effective from 1st - 20th. The amount of hit points restored is usually enough that a single hit will knock the healed character back to unconsciousness.

also casting as a bonus action can be very useful to casting classes that don't normally have bonus action stuff every turn. it does limit your action to a cantrip, but it's still quite potent, you can pop out of a grapple and cast firebolt or blade ward, or whatever
Sorcerers, and wizards gain a reliable bonus action two levels earlier. Warlocks still have Hex. Granted they would have 2-4 more slots to use this in conjunction with.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

So, misty step is a very versatile spell, for both general utility and in combat. Teleporting as a bonus action affords great battlefield manipulation without interfering with your turn. But is it really strong enough to require 2nd-level?

Huh. I'd argue Misty Step might be too good for second level. Healing Word's single die (plus attribute bonus) of hit point recovery doesn't even compare, given that most monsters can do more damage than it heals when cast as a first (or even second) level spell with one round of attacks, even low level monsters, and Misty Step can easily be used to evade at least one round of attacks from many foes. Sometimes it can be used to do so from multiple enemies even. Which is why it outperforms shield, as well.

And that's solely using it to avoid attacks, it's got plenty of other uses as well- avoiding traps, crossing obstacles like chasms, moving into position to attack, etc.

[Sigreid]

So you can have shield and Misty Step as your spell mastery spells.

[Waazraath]

Misty step is brilliant. It's mobility, its defense (escape from a grapple, melee, any miserable situation where you don't want to be, as long as you can speak); being bonus action, it's great tactical movement (you still have your action!); it's utility, getting on top of a building, over a chasm, whatever. Hell yeah it should be a level 2 spell, it's a very strong level 2 spell as it is. One of the first ones I'd pick, and I've seen sorcerers take it, and be happy with it, despite having few spells known.

As for healing word, with which it is compared: healing word is flat out one of the best level 1 spells, next to bless and sleep. If used well, that is (but that goes for everything). Imo, it should only be used to revive a party member that goes to the ground. In that way, you bring an ally back into the fight, without spending your action. Absolutely fantastic. And definitely not the average 1st level spell.

Does it break the game, making it 1st level? No. In itself, it doesn't win games. And probably few casters want to spend their 1st level slots, when you only have 1st level slots, on a spell like this; bless and sleep are much better at that moment. But at later levels, with plenty of spells to go around for combat, misty step is great. Even more so for gishes. My ancient pally absolutely loved it, misty stepping over all obstacles (creatures and objects), next to mister caster, and making 2 attacks with smites.

[Kryx]

Personal opinion based on observation of the power levels of spells: 5e would've benefited from 5 spell levels instead of 9.
Several of the intermediate levels struggle to provide meaningful difference from the earlier level and struggly mechanically against the higher level. For example level 2 spells are slightly better than level 1, but the gap between 2nd and 3rd level spells is huge. Similarly several 4th level spells are worse than 3rd level spells.

I could easily see merging some levels and ending with the following:

1st: Old 1st and 2nd
2nd: Old 3rd and 4th
3rd: Old 5th and 6th
4th: Old 7th and 8th
5th: Old 9th

This would seemingly require too much change for too little benefit for my tastes, but I believe the design would've been better.


Regarding Misty Step: It is a bit too strong to fit into the bucket of current 1st level spells imo.

[Zman]

Misty Step is incredibly useful, it is a get out of jail free Spell that bypasses or outright counters many problems and situation. And it is only a Bonus Action.

[Willie the Duck]

Misty Step is incredibly useful, it is a get out of jail free Spell that bypasses or outright counters many problems and situation. And it is only a Bonus Action.

Including, literally, getting out of jails.

Don't forget that Spider Climb is also a 2nd level spell. In most situations, it simply does what a rogue, or in this edition anyone with good skills, can do anyways, it just makes it automatic. However, occasionally what it does do is allow you to walk across the ceiling over the pit of lava to get to the macguffin/drawbridge controls/whatever, completely negating an obstacle that otherwise was completely impassible.

So, while the combat applicable possibilities for the spell might fall into the only-nice category, the gatekeeper-gatecrashing capabilities keep it in the 'no less than 2nd' zone.

[Vingelot]

It's comparable to Cunning Action Dash? It's better but it costs a resource and comes online a smidge later to make up for it.

That's my attempt at finding logic anyway.

Resource as in spell slot?

[Terra Reveene]

Personal opinion based on observation of the power levels of spells: 5e would've benefited from 5 spell levels instead of 9.
Several of the intermediate levels struggle to provide meaningful difference from the earlier level and struggly mechanically against the higher level. For example level 2 spells are slightly better than level 1, but the gap between 2nd and 3rd level spells is huge. Similarly several 4th level spells are worse than 3rd level spells.

I could easily see merging some levels and ending with the following:

1st: Old 1st and 2nd
2nd: Old 3rd and 4th
3rd: Old 5th and 6th
4th: Old 7th and 8th
5th: Old 9th

This would seemingly require too much change for too little benefit for my tastes, but I believe the design would've been better.


Regarding Misty Step: It is a bit too strong to fit into the bucket of current 1st level spells imo.

How big of a change would be needed? I've already attempted this, got to a point where I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. The damage difference between spells felt difficult for me to work out. 'Would the new 1st level spells have to be at the same power as old 1st level, old 2nd level, or in between? How many of the new 1st level slots should they have and at what levels?' were common questions for me.

I might make another attempt at doing this. I already have 20+ pages of work with this, would be a shame If they went to waste.

EDIT: To clarify: I started making the change before thinking about all the 'minor details'. That's how I ended up with 20+ pages of work, although I'll still use the majority of it even if I end up not using all of it.

[lunaticfringe]

Resource as in spell slot?

Nope, that's not what I meant at all.

[Kryx]

How big of a change would be needed?
I've created another thread where we can discuss this ideas without spamming this thread:

Reducing Amount of Spell Levels (A Thought Exercise) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534804-Reducing-Amount-of-Spell-Levels-(A-Thought-Exercise))

[Vogie]

So you can't get it with a single-level dip? That's the only reason I can think of.

[furby076]

Misty step is awesome for anyone, but really for melee the most. Everyone can use it to escape bad situations, get over obstacles, etc...but a melee can really benefit it by bypassing defenders and getting straight to the heart of the problem: The wizard/sorc/cleric/mystic hanging out back slinging spells at the group.

Does it happen often? Well, in my campaign it doesn't as my DM doesn't use spell casters that often (he is more fond of monsters, melee, and archers hiding in the cover of night...jerk) :)

[JBPuffin]

I've been musing about at-will teleportation myself - like a monk's Unarmed Movement, at 2nd level you can teleport, say, 5 feet to a space you can see as part of your movement, and as you go up in levels the distant increases (up to 20 at level, like, 16 or so), and maybe as part of the same class you'd later get the ability to teleport as your reaction to certain kinds of attacks/effects. Problem so far has been coming up with enough flavor to actually make a class which will harbor this ability...

I miss 4e's Fey Step, in that you got it once every fight; if the 5e version was, say, Int mod per long rest or something like that, I'd feel better about it and would make more eladrin characters. As it is...*sigh.*

[thereaper]

Higher level spells aren't always better. Sometimes, a spell just happens to come online earlier, perhaps because it's more a class feature than a spell (healing word being a great example).

I would also note that healing word doesn't necessarily need to be up cast, eithet. It's primary purpose isn't so much recovering hp as it is getting you back from 0.

[thoroughlyS]

Healing Word's single die (plus attribute bonus) of hit point recovery doesn't even compare, given that most monsters can do more damage than it heals when cast as a first (or even second) level spell with one round of attacks, even low level monsters, and Misty Step can easily be used to evade at least one round of attacks from many foes.


As for healing word, with which it is compared: healing word is flat out one of the best level 1 spells, next to bless and sleep. If used well, that is (but that goes for everything). Imo, it should only be used to revive a party member that goes to the ground. In that way, you bring an ally back into the fight, without spending your action. Absolutely fantastic. And definitely not the average 1st level spell.

I would also note that healing word doesn't necessarily need to be up cast, eithet. It's primary purpose isn't so much recovering hp as it is getting you back from 0.
These are basically my thoughts on healing word as well. Yes, it is probably one of the best 1st-level spells. But is misty step better? In my mind, they are basically as useful as one another. Heck, I'm more comfortable with a subrace giving misty step 1/short rest, rather than healing word 1/short rest. Mostly because misty step is more self-serving, and doesn't help the party as a whole as much.

[Kryx]

I'm more comfortable with a subrace giving misty step 1/short rest, rather than healing word 1/short rest. Mostly because misty step is more self-serving, and doesn't help the party as a whole as much.
You may have already considered it, but teleport is a free escape from all grapples and some restrained.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

These are basically my thoughts on healing word as well. Yes, it is probably one of the best 1st-level spells. But is misty step better?
Yes. Massively on a personal level, but probably even a little bit in a group. It's better to prevent someone hitting 0 hp than to have to heal someone from 0 hp.

[Talamare]

Yes. Massively on a personal level, but probably even a little bit in a group. It's better to prevent someone hitting 0 hp than to have to heal someone from 0 hp.

Unless you're at 0, I'm not wasting my time healing you.

You can fight just fine with 1 HP.

[Kryx]

Unless you're at 0, I'm not wasting my time healing you.

You can fight just fine with 1 HP.
It's sad that 5e's design lead to this line of thinking.

Healing spells being much weaker than damage spells and very little consequences for playing the wack a mole game have lead to it. :(

[Talamare]

It's sad that 5e's design lead to this line of thinking.

Healing spells being much weaker than damage spells and very little consequences for playing the wack a mole game have lead to it. :(

Hardly 5e Design, both 4th and 3rd was the same.

[Jerrykhor]

It's sad that 5e's design lead to this line of thinking.

Healing spells being much weaker than damage spells and very little consequences for playing the wack a mole game have lead to it. :(

If people want to treat D&D like a video game, no system can stop them from doing that. As long as there is a system, it is a game, and some people would simply play them as such.

[skaddix]

Yeah that is a standard RPG feature...although I think Paizo did some variant rules for HP Percentiles but honestly too complicated to use. It be easier to take care of in a videogame but even most videogames don't take it into account.

[JackPhoenix]

Hardly 5e Design, both 4th and 3rd was the same.

Well, in 3e, you would be at serious risk if you fight anything with decent damage. If you're at 1 hp, anything over 10 damage kills you instantly.

[spinningdice]

Due to the massive damage rules the same thing applies in 5e (kind of). If damage from one attack would take you to negative your hp total you die, at low levels this is entirely an entirely plausible occurrence, if you insist on walking around with 1hp.

I love Misty Step, gets you out of many sticky situations (webs, grapples, other non-paralysation based restraints).

[Mandragola]

Misty step is fantastic for my vengeance paladin. It's probably the single spell that he has cast most often in his career (he's now lvl 13). I hardly ever cast another 2nd level spell.

Second level feels right. It doesn't take you all that far, like dim door or teleport, but it is an excellent tactical movement spell.

It's probably better for people who play on a grid with miniatures, as all movement abilities tend to be.

[Kryx]

Well, in 3e, you would be at serious risk if you fight anything with decent damage. If you're at 1 hp, anything over 10 damage kills you instantly.
Exactly. That is very different than the current whack-a-mole.


Due to the massive damage rules the same thing applies in 5e (kind of).
Massive damage never applies after levels 1-3. Monsters don't do enough damage in 1 attack to make it matter.

[Willie the Duck]

Massive damage never applies after levels 1-3. Monsters don't do enough damage in 1 attack to make it matter.

No, but they do start having multiple attacks. If you are at 0 and get hit (which will be an auto-crit), you'll take 2 of your 3 death saves and may well roll your last one before anyone can do anything about it.

[Twizzly513]

I would imagine it's a second level spell for one reason only. If it was a first level spell, it would be a no-brainer to take it. Bonus action teleport starting at 1st level is no small thing. By making it second level, any caster has to make a big choice if they want to take that spell or not. They probably bumped it up to make other spells more viable at first level.

[Kryx]

No, but they do start having multiple attacks. If you are at 0 and get hit (which will be an auto-crit), you'll take 2 of your 3 death saves and may well roll your last one before anyone can do anything about it.
Most creatures with intelligence will change focus to those that pose a threat.

[Willie the Duck]

As they should. An intelligent creature would never spend their time finishing off a likely-already-dead opponent while another one was swinging a deadly weapon in their face. I've been in debates where it's been pointed out that 'creatures with intelligence,' that are living in a universe where Healing Word exists will know darn well that the guy lying on the ground bleeding out is still a threat to them, since at any moment they could spring back up. Thus finishing them off and preventing that makes perfect sense. I can see both arguments.

Regardless, it does point out that staying in the fight with a few remaining hitpoints is still risky, even after levels where taking your full hp-worth in a single blow is unlikely.

[jas61292]

Most creatures with intelligence will change focus to those that pose a threat.

I disagree. I mean... maybe if they do not know you. But most creatures with intelligence will attack until you are dead if they know you have a healer. For the exact same reason that most "intelligent" players don't heal until their allies are down. Only dumb enemies let you play wack-a-mole.

[Arkhios]

Well, for one thing, teleport breaks a grapple, so being able to get rid of that with only 1 level dip (or Magic Initiate) would make grappling an irrelevant threat

[KorvinStarmast]

Reducing Amount of Spell Levels (A Thought Exercise) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534804-Reducing-Amount-of-Spell-Levels-(A-Thought-Exercise)) I'll drop by that thread, but I wonder why you went with 5. The original game had 6 levels. (7-9 arrived with a supplement even though there was some discussion within TSR about power creep/inflation and those spells only being really desirable for NPCs ...)

[Willie the Duck]

I'll drop by that thread, but I wonder why you went with 5. The original game had 6 levels. (7-9 arrived with a supplement even though there was some discussion within TSR about power creep/inflation and those spells only being really desirable for NPCs ...)

Other than as a form of homage that very few people would get, why would Kryz instead choose 6 levels? He's not suggesting constraining spellcasting power to the level that was contained in the LBB 6 levels.

[Sigreid]

Most creatures with intelligence will change focus to those that pose a threat.

Valid statement until the first time healing word stands you back up.

[Mellack]

Valid statement until the first time healing word stands you back up.

I think a lot of that depends on your game world. Once you show you have a healer, Sigreid is correct that they will adjust appropriately. But how many magical healers are in your world? Does every village have one, or are they rare? If your average bandit has never seen more than an herbalist, they would assume down means out. If every gang has clerical healers of their own, then they would probably keep hitting downed.

[Kryx]

Only dumb enemies let you play wack-a-mole.
As a DM I would feel very very vindictive killing a PC via damage while they are downed. It's very faux pas imo.

[mephnick]

As a DM I would feel very very vindictive killing a PC via damage while they are downed. It's very faux pas imo.

It's pretty much the only way to ever kill a PC. I know that's not in every DM's wheelhouse, but I like there being real consequences losing. Why are people so afraid of rolling up new characters these days? The hobby was built on PC deaths. I somehow know millennials are the cause of all this!

Smart enemies and berserking animals will keep hitting downed enemies.

[jas61292]

As a DM I would feel very very vindictive killing a PC via damage while they are downed. It's very faux pas imo.

I personally disagree. If players are going to feel OK using metagamey, or at the very lest gamist strategies, they should not be able to do so without expecting similar tactics from intelligent enemies. It depends on the enemies, definitely, but I have no desire to make certain, nonsensical tactics ideal by acting as if enemies will ignore them.

[Kryx]

Why are people so afraid of rolling up new characters these days?
I don't have a problem with PCs dying, but what you suggest only makes sense from a mechanics perspective, not a character perspective.


===



I personally disagree. If players are going to feel OK using metagamey, or at the very lest gamist strategies
My players don't use whack-a-mole because I have exhaustion when they fall to 0. Problem solved.

Logically enemies will ignore them - mostly with gamist strategies would they purposefully kill a PC. Exceptions exist, but it wouldn't be the logical norm.

[Willie the Duck]

As a DM I would feel very very vindictive killing a PC via damage while they are downed. It's very faux pas imo.

I agree, and it violates all basic rules of reason to have enemy monsters attacking the bleeding-and-dying fighter while a cleric is swinging a mace at their head, because they are more afraid of the fighter getting back up and attacking them then the several pounds of hardened metal coming to cave in their skull. But, it is a reasonable action in a world with this spell in existence. So I blame the spell and what it does to gameplay.


My players don't use whack-a-mole because I have exhaustion when they fall to 0. Problem solved.

Logically enemies will ignore them - mostly with gamist strategies would they purposefully kill a PC. Exceptions exist, but it wouldn't be the logical norm.

So you have found a modification that solves the problem. It sounds like everyone's on the same page, except that others are changing opponents strategies to conform to their unrealistic reality, while you are changing the reality to be realistic.

[Sigreid]

I think a lot of that depends on your game world. Once you show you have a healer, Sigreid is correct that they will adjust appropriately. But how many magical healers are in your world? Does every village have one, or are they rare? If your average bandit has never seen more than an herbalist, they would assume down means out. If every gang has clerical healers of their own, then they would probably keep hitting downed.

Sorry, I'd specifically meant in a given fight. Once you stand someone back up, your opponents will get more persistent.

[JBPuffin]

I would imagine it's a second level spell for one reason only. If it was a first level spell, it would be a no-brainer to take it. Bonus action teleport starting at 1st level is no small thing. By making it second level, any caster has to make a big choice if they want to take that spell or not. They probably bumped it up to make other spells more viable at first level.

That actually makes a lot of sense, and something I can agree with - if I had the option, I'd take a first-level 30-foot bonus action teleport on every character, even classes that don't get spellcasting. Come to think of it, I should make more eladrin characters...

As for combat healing (note: responding to comments that are not the above in this bit), my group is always healing up mid-combat. The cleric knows he's there as a toolkit when he's not destroying everything with his weapon, so most of his slots go to healing. I'll grab Healing Elixir when I take my first Wizard level (however many spells I end up getting). Honestly, video games for me have done exactly the opposite - never wait until the last minute to heal. You know what happens when you don't use an Estus in Dark Souls? Corner mob kills you. I've had more than my fair share of close calls playing DnD and other games to let my HP dip too far if I can avoid it, action efficiency be damned, and it's because of "video game logic" that I do combat healing. So, if you're going to call it a bad thing, don't blame it on video games, an impartial medium with multiple lessons to take - blame it on optimizers, the purveyors of the behavior, instead.

[Kryx]

blame it on optimizers, the purveyors of the behavior, instead.
People's behavior in this regard is understandable and even fully expected, given the math of the scenario. While rules don't need to be 100% air tight to prevent little abuses, this behavior was incredibly obvious from many player's first read of the books or first encounter where a player fell to 0 and they connected the dots for how abusable it is.

But I have derailed this thread enough. My apologies.

Back on topic: I fully agree that Misty Step should be a 2nd level spell, but a reasoning such as "all casters would take it if it were a 1st level spell" falls short when spells like Shield are in existence. It's one of the best, possibly the best 1st level spell in the game. Every decent caster with access to shield will take it. We shouldn't balance based on an outlier though.

[thoroughlyS]

I see many well reasoned responses for why misty step is 2nd-level, so I'd also like to hear everyone's thoughts on the Eladrin. It grants access to a 2nd-level spell (which, based on the opinions shared above, is somewhere between solid and strong for its level), once per short rest. How comfortable is everyone with this? Would you be equally comfortable with a race that had - say alter self? Scorching ray? Hold person? Remember that this is once per short rest from 1st level.

[JackPhoenix]

I see many well reasoned responses for why misty step is 2nd-level, so I'd also like to hear everyone's thoughts on the Eladrin. It grants access to a 2nd-level spell (which, based on the opinions shared above, is somewhere between solid and strong for its level), once per short rest. How comfortable is everyone with this? Would you be equally comfortable with a race that had - say alter self? Scorching ray? Hold person? Remember that this is once per short rest from 1st level.

Alter Self? Propably, but I would be wary of the Natural Weapons option. +1 magic "weapon" whenever I like? If it was only the disguise (like Changeling) it would be fine. From level 3, sure. Still, most acceptable option from the 3 presented.
Scorching Ray? Not from 1st level. It's way better than Dragonborn breath weapon (which, admittedly, is somewhat underwhelming when considering rest of DB racial abilities).
Hold Person? You've guessed it, not from the first level.

The difference between Misty Step and the above is that MS is NOT an offensive ability. It won't make the character more dangerous, it give them some utility and an option to GTFO when cornered. And it's useful all over the character's career. SR is amazing early on, but useless at higher levels.

Basically, imagine fighting a mob of commoners of the [race with the spell]. Commoners with Misty Step? Annoying to catch, and have some mobility, but fine. Alter Self? Also mostly fine, but more versatile. Scorching Ray or Hold Person? How many low level parties would be able to survive that?

[JBPuffin]

I see many well reasoned responses for why misty step is 2nd-level, so I'd also like to hear everyone's thoughts on the Eladrin. It grants access to a 2nd-level spell (which, based on the opinions shared above, is somewhere between solid and strong for its level), once per short rest. How comfortable is everyone with this? Would you be equally comfortable with a race that had - say alter self? Scorching ray? Hold person? Remember that this is once per short rest from 1st level.

It's more niche than things like Infernal Legacy, which grant multiple spells, but it does have more concentrated power. Also, long rests are guaranteed, but short rests vary wildly between groups, so it does make a race much more dependent on the DM's pacing.

Alter self is a changeling's spell, through and through. It's also not the craziest spell from what I can see.
Scorching ray...huh. It's much better than the dragonborn's breath weapon (what isn't, though), so it's probably a bad idea to give it to a race with a better frequency than the dragonborn's sole defining trait - without, that is, seriously buffing that poor thing...for my next game, I do need to have a better one worked up.
Hold Person is nifty - possibly too much, but I'm not entirely sure on it.
Darkvision the spell would suck.
Detect Thoughts could be cool.

[Talamare]

I see many well reasoned responses for why misty step is 2nd-level, so I'd also like to hear everyone's thoughts on the Eladrin. It grants access to a 2nd-level spell (which, based on the opinions shared above, is somewhere between solid and strong for its level), once per short rest. How comfortable is everyone with this? Would you be equally comfortable with a race that had - say alter self? Scorching ray? Hold person? Remember that this is once per short rest from 1st level.

Eladrin paid for it by not having as powerful other racial bonuses.

As others have said Dragon Born also had incredibly powerful Once Per Encounter power as well

[Sicarius Victis]

Eladrin paid for it by not having as powerful other racial bonuses.

As others have said Dragon Born also had incredibly powerful Once Per Encounter power as well

I think you might be thinking of the wrong edition. We're talking about 5e here, where the Dragonborn does not have an "incredibly powerful 1/encounter ability".

[JackPhoenix]

Eladrin paid for it by not having as powerful other racial bonuses.

As others have said Dragon Born also had incredibly powerful Once Per Encounter power as well

What incredibly powerful power? 2d6 damage 15' cone or 30' line? (it gets better over time, but we're talking about level 1). Burning Hands is stronger than that. Compare it to 3x 2d6 rays at 120 range.

[Talamare]

I think you might be thinking of the wrong edition. We're talking about 5e here, where the Dragonborn does not have an "incredibly powerful 1/encounter ability".

I don't remember Eladrin existing in 5e in concrete form

In 5e Dragonborn was nerfed to garbage tier regardless.

Edit - Point is, it's a good ability, but they pay for it by not having other racial bonuses.

[Kryx]

I don't remember Eladrin existing in 5e in concrete form
DMG page 286

[BillyBobShorton]

Teleporting is not first level magic. Too many uses to even list. If you don't get it, dig deeper into the imagnation.

Infiltration, combat, passing a trap, crossing an obstacle, escaping death, reaching a high point, grabbing an item or landing out of reach, ensuring stealth, pulling a heist, spying, robbery, sabotage, getting info, planting an object, springing a trap, surprise, ambush, trickery, showmanship...

And you compared ALL THAT to 1d4+2 or 3 HP... ??

[Angelmaker]

Hardly 5e Design, both 4th and 3rd was the same.

I have to jump at this. Healing in 4E was done right, being a minor action for leaders, so they could still act nora,lly in addition to healing or having rider actions allowing damage to be cast on top of healing.

If healing would have taken any inspiration at all from 4E, i would have been so happy. Instead action economy again forbids healing in combat.

[ad_hoc]

I don't feel comfortable giving a player access to an ability at 1st level, which they normally wouldn't receive until 3rd level.

1st and 2nd level go by so quickly you won't even notice.

[Willie the Duck]

1st and 2nd level go by so quickly you won't even notice.

Perhaps (although the fact that you can use 1st and second level slots to cast 1st level spells means that you'll rarely run out of 1st-level misty steps, while as a 2nd level spell it takes a long time for that to become a trivial expenditure).

However, the difference between taking a 1-level dip to get a few castings of a spell and a 3 level dip is big, so there are definitely builds where it would make a big difference.

[furby076]

It's pretty much the only way to ever kill a PC. I know that's not in every DM's wheelhouse, but I like there being real consequences losing. Why are people so afraid of rolling up new characters these days? The hobby was built on PC deaths. I somehow know millennials are the cause of all this!

Smart enemies and berserking animals will keep hitting downed enemies.

What? I'll roll up a new character, but after I've built a good back story. After I've played the character for several years, I prefer my character to survive. I've gotten attached to him/her - if I haven't, then I'd tell the DM i need to make a new character way before the DM has a chance to tell me "aww man, you're dead". No, I'm not a millennial, Gen X here. Been playing since 2nd D&D.

I can see animals, or maybe a berserker who lost all reason, kicking a target when down - but as most have said...when your enemy is down, you change focus to the person who is now seeking vengeance using your face as a muse for their mace

[spinningdice]

On the debate to attacking when their down:
I'd play intelligent foes as intelligent, generally with objectives. This may or may not cause them to finish downed foes.
Predators will usually attempt to down one foe and then retreat with it to feed on. Threatened animals will try and drive off their attackers and will be unlikely to finish off someone who's no longer threatening.
Rise of AoE attacks past 5th level means I'd remind players pay attention to where they've fallen.

On Character Death:
I'd generally rather have a dramatic death than a stupid one, but I've always got more ideas of characters to play.

[MeeposFire]

I have to jump at this. Healing in 4E was done right, being a minor action for leaders, so they could still act nora,lly in addition to healing or having rider actions allowing damage to be cast on top of healing.

If healing would have taken any inspiration at all from 4E, i would have been so happy. Instead action economy again forbids healing in combat.

Action economy is not the problem because healing word is a thing (which was the name of that minor action heal on the cleric as I recall in 4e so they did take a note from 4e). The difference is a combo of death saves being changed (they now reset more often than in 4e so you are less in danger of dying from them) and the amount healed with that bonus/minor action. 4e healing word is 25% of your HP but 5e healing word is nowhere near that big for most of your career which means you are not going to keep up against damage using it thus making it better used only to bring people back up (though to be fair in combat healing was terrible in pretty much every edition unless you are casting the heal spell which is essentially true in 5e too in 3e that is why the idea was to use wands for healing and save your slots on other things).