Favorite OOTS Character Tournament: #16 WRECAN vs #1 VAARSUVIUS

[alwaysbebatman]

VOTING IS CLOSED

I want to keep this tournament rolling on schedule, but life is getting in the way, so I will pretty up this top post later.

So, for now: whom do you prefer? VAARSUVIUS? Or WRECAN?

Winner faces Haley Starshine in Round 2.

GO!

[Euclidodese]

Vaarsuvius. Obviously Wrecan is amazing, but Vaarsuvius is on a whole other level. I first truly fell in love with this comic when I read the 'I prepared explosive runes today' joke, and ze's been gold ever since, the prank war with Belkar, the going mental on a boat bit, the cat-retrieving hand, the epic confrontation with the Ancient Black Dragon, the even epicier battle with Xykon... The list goes on.

[Peelee]

Wrecan.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/65/65e4f9ca7305e34a8fcf42ee4b33552d9fd69991ecc3093e93 a47bde5e2a0b2b.jpg

[alwaysbebatman]

Okay, it's tied!

Fun.

[Rogan]

This is a hard desision...
But I will go for V this time.

[martianmister]

Wrecan for me.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oh man, this is a tough one. I love Wrecan, but Vasrsuvius is one of my all-time favorites.

[bguy]

As much as I like Wrecan, I've got to go with Vaarsuvius.

[Arkku]

Since we are voting for the character in the comic, not the person that character may be loosely based on, it obviously has to be Vaarsuvius as we're talking about one of the main characters vs one with 15 appearances. Plus the Darth Vaarsuvius story was one of my favourites.

[Hamste]

I vote V

[drazen]

Sorry, Wrecan! You were a nice, thoughtful, and enjoyable tribute. But your contributions were too small to be a favorite, and V has basically always been deliciously entertaining (save for being a bit annoying and arrogant during the boat plots, but at least V learned a lesson about it).

I vote for Vaarsuvius.

[Sylian]

I vividly vote for V.

[littlebum2002]

Wrecan. I mean, V is a great character, and will certainly get my vote very often if they win, but damn that last scene was great.

[Laurana]

Vaarsuvius.

[2D8HP]

Tears?

:roy: I'm... I wish there had been more time. To get to know you better.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Wrecan_zpsxxbwxuey.png There's never enough time.

Every day, one after another, until we wake up and it turns out that's the day our world ends.

You have to do what you can, when you can—because who knows if tomorrow is even happening, you know?

Now get on your flying boat and stop a crazy dwarf vampire from committing election fraud!

:roy: Yes, sir!



Or "Ears"?

:vaarsuvius: Look—look here. He is perched upon my shoulder this very moment.

:belkar: I don't see anything.

:vaarsuvius: That is because you have the sensory acuity of loose gravel, you moron!

:belkar: ....Did you just call me a cutie?

:vaarsuvius: I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities.

Quickly, please, before they are out of range.



Tears gets the Nod.

Wrecan

[alwaysbebatman]

That is a truly moving quote, even WITHOUT the personal context.

There is one thing that sways me the other way: Vaarsuvius's reaction to realizing what they had truly done when they see the Draketooth family tree.

Horror first, naturally. Understandable freak out. But then, they fully take responsibility. They do not deny the wrongdoing, nor the culpability. They successfully use logic to resist the temptation to pass the buck to the influence of the chained souls. Then they tell someone whose judgment and values they trust to get advice on how to deal with it and to make sure he's aware of the possible ramifications.

The avoidance of dramatic denial and cover-up is such a refreshing change of pace, and such a good example of how one ought to handle realizing one's made a terrible mistake.

Vaarsuvius

[Potatomade]

V. For the same reason I couldn't nod to Gary Gygax or Dave Arneson in the other thread: in comic, Wrecan was cool, but not significant to the overall story. Though I agree his final line was beautiful.

V, on the other hand, has a very satisfying dramatic arc going. Like Redcloak, he/she's done horrible, horrible things, but is actively refusing to justify them by saying it's for some greater end. That fact alone would give V my nod, even apart from him/her rivaling Belkar and Elan in getting the best jokes.

[137beth]

Wrecan was a great person in real life. But this is about our favorite characters, and V is possibly my favorite character.

[Joerg]

Yeah, I really liked the appearance of Wrecan in the comic, but he's not my favorite character in the comic. Vaarsuvius, on the other hand, may be (or Redcloak).

[white lancer]

I mean, Wrecan is cool and all, but Vaarsuvius has the distinction of being both one of the funniest characters in the comic and having one of the most satisfying (and on-going) arcs. Easy vote here.

[Fincher]

I vote Wrecan, based purely on the comic. I'm just not that enthusiastic about Vaarsuvius, really. She's fine.

[L8r]

Wrecan, I don't even like Vaarsuvius.

[LadyEowyn]

Vaarsuvius. One of the best characters in the comic, with one of the strongest arcs.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Wrecan.

Don't get me wrong, the loquacious and arrogant elf's fight with the mother dragon was what got me into OOTS, but side characters are more interesting to me than main characters.

Supporting characters are what make a world feel alive. And Wrecan's a darn likable and memorable side character.

[Mandor]

I *totally* get the Tribute to Wrecan factor and I would quite honestly smile if he wins.

But I have to go with Vaarsuvius. He's been my hands down favorite since "Disintegrate! Gust of Wind! Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world?!"

[Liquor Box]

V is a main character, even if not one of the best ones. He had an epic battle with the Dragon and Xykon and has had some really funny lines. I didn't find Wrecan particularly interesting, although I get the sense that there is some out of comic reason why people are voting for him.

I vote Vaarsuvius

[NontheistCleric]

My vote goes to Vaarsuvius.


I get the sense that there is some out of comic reason why people are voting for him.

He used to be a poster on this board, as far as I can tell. Then he died. The comic character was made by The Giant as a tribute to him.

[The Curt Jester]

Varsuvius.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

If you'd known the man, you'd understand.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I absolutely despise V and don't get hir popularity.

Didn't know Wrecan the person, but the character was fun. I vote for Wrecan.


V, on the other hand, has a very satisfying dramatic arc going. Like Redcloak, he/she's done horrible, horrible things, but is actively refusing to justify them by saying it's for some greater end.
Yes, and shortly after V's "remorse" for what s/he did, V was mentally dominating a kobold (who'd done nothing to hir) into torturous situations like having his mouth used as a litter box (something-something "telepathic screams of anguish"), tormenting him to the point that he tried to commit suicide on the traps at the pyramid.
What a touching redemption story. Seriously, why is V so popular?

[Zaclock]

V. Simply the best.

[Joerg]

Yes, and shortly after V's "remorse" for what s/he did, V was mentally dominating a kobold (who'd done nothing to hir)

Well, nothing except trying to kill hir with crossbow bolts.


into torturous situations like having his mouth used as a litter box (something-something "telepathic screams of anguish"), tormenting him to the point that he tried to commit suicide on the traps at the pyramid.

No, that was not a choice of him, that was still domination by V. Searching for traps to the best of his abilities, only his abilities are apparently very small. (And Haley suspected that.)


What a touching redemption story. Seriously, why is V so popular?
I can only speak for myself, here. But V is not a favorite character of mine because V is a nice person or because I would like hir if I met hir personally. V is a favorite character because of hir dramatic storylines and hir interesting character development and some very good running gags.

[Potatomade]

Yes, and shortly after V's "remorse" for what s/he did, V was mentally dominating a kobold (who'd done nothing to hir) into torturous situations like having his mouth used as a litter box (something-something "telepathic screams of anguish"), tormenting him to the point that he tried to commit suicide on the traps at the pyramid.
What a touching redemption story. Seriously, why is V so popular?

V was kind of in a transitional phase when he/she did that. Remember, that was before V realized the full extent of the Familicide spell. Also, V had only just started trying to become a team player (acknowledging Blackwing, realizing that raw arcane power wasn't enough and trying to serve as support, etc). People don't change overnight, and until then, V had often been very callous (Kubota's death, Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, and so on). The point is that V is trying.

As Joerg said, V isn't a likeable person, but V's development is incredibly entertaining to watch.

[alwaysbebatman]

Those scenes are from before they saw the Draketooth family tree and experiences remorse. Not after.

[martianmister]

Yes, and shortly after V's "remorse" for what s/he did, V was mentally dominating a kobold (who'd done nothing to hir) into torturous situations like having his mouth used as a litter box (something-something "telepathic screams of anguish"), tormenting him to the point that he tried to commit suicide on the traps at the pyramid.
What a touching redemption story. Seriously, why is V so popular?

What especially makes it so jarring is the fact that no one (not even the storyline) cared about this obviously evil act and it's immediately forgotten, despite that whole arc about familicide and V's guilt.

[hroþila]

Only Durkon saw that, and not being proactive is kinda his thing. Also, it happened relatively close to the beginning of V's arc, when V still didn't quite grasp what their moral failure consisted of and wasn't addressing the real issues. Regardless, what does V being a horrible person have to do with their being a great character?

[2D8HP]

I nodded for Wrecan and I'm not changing that, but Vaarsuvius is a great character, besides was it just my eyes that got misty when V received the divorce papers from Inkyrius?

Think of how it could have been...

http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx144/half-halfling/Untitled-2.png

http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx144/half-halfling/Beztytuu.png

[Dr.Zero]

and until then, V had often been very callous (Kubota's death, Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, and so on). The point is that V is trying.


I don't know, I saw Kubota's execution as a moment of awesome.

And the spiked tentacles, come on, they are mostly a joke about a house ruled version of the Black Tentacles, but anyway the Order was going for the kill on Trigak and I don't think that in real life getting a fireball on the face which would burn you alive would be much better.

But the kobold? I see it on a completely different level. And I'm a guy who thinks Tarquin and Belkar are usually funny.

On the other hand, every single member of the Order has some dirt on his/her hands regarding the kobold (the cleanest being Durkon, who anyway didn't even try to free him, did just vomit), thus let's accept it like a spell of "out of character, mass" and move on.

About the vote, I want to say that V was in my top ten. And s/he is very relevant to the story with some great punchlines and a good arc which is not over.

On the other hand, Wrecan waving goodbye from the behind of that yellow fog is touching in itself and absolutely heartwarming knowing the reason he is there...

So I won't vote, but I'll use this thread to express my appreciation for how mr Burlew has managed this tribute.

[Present 2.0]

On the other hand, every single member of the Order has some dirt on his/her hands regarding the kobold (the cleanest being Durkon, who anyway didn't even try to free him, did just vomit), thus let's accept it like a spell of "out of character, mass" and move on.

Yeah, that was a low point for the whole order and I'll have to use my "Fanon Discontinuity"-Card for that one. I find it really weird, that Rich apologized for that Tentacle-Joke and explained, how tasteless that was to him and that he wished he didn't do that and then did those Things with the kobold.

Edit: Also Vaarsuvius.

[hroþila]

I don't see a problem with that strip because I felt it was trying to make a point about how V was still a horrible, callous person, more comparable to Belkar than to Durkon, even if at that point V certainly liked to go all "woe is me, I feel so bad" without any deeper analysis of what V had done. And I think it's no coincidence V did that to a member of a monster race, which parallels V's failure to grasp the evil V had done by killing the black dragons even if no humans had been involved (something which V only understood much later, in the pyramid). Roy, Haley and Elan weren't present, and Durkon was too shocked and too passive to intervene beyond some feeble protestations, but that's in-character for him. The spiked tentacles, on the other hand, were never more than an implied rape joke. Totally different.

[Potatomade]

Ok, I'll concede on the Evard's Tentacles thing. I didn't know the backstory of it. The point remains that V was still a jerk when the kobold incident happened, as others have stated better than I did.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yeah, acknowledged. "Doing something awful" and "realizing how awful it is" are two different things. Vaarsuvius has really been a changed elf, but only since seeing the Draketooth family tree and having a good freak out. Before that? Not so much.

[Ruck]

I wasn't fortunate enough to be a poster here while Wrecan was, but I still enjoyed and appreciated the character's appearance, his final send-off, and the story of his creation.

However, Vaarsuvius is just too important to the strip in so many ways. Comedically, V is basically the Cliff Clavin of the OOTS, which I find hilarious (maybe I have a bias towards jokes about know-it-alls and/or the absurdly verbose). Dramatically, V's journey to the lowest of the low and attempts to seek redemption are fascinating to watch; that journey is certainly long and difficult, and the effort and resulting changes in V's character have been well worth taking it. So I gotta go V-- just too integral to the strip.

[Elanasaurus]

Vaarsuvius was in my top 10, but I just learned about the Wrecan tribute in this thread, and it moved me. I know Wrecan the character is different from Wrecan the person, but...
Not even using logic here. Just Wrecan.

[martianmister]

Yeah, acknowledged. "Doing something awful" and "realizing how awful it is" are two different things. Vaarsuvius has really been a changed elf, but only since seeing the Draketooth family tree and having a good freak out. Before that? Not so much.

Yet, V still don't acknowledge what V did to the kobold, and it's still forgotten.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yet, V still don't acknowledge what V did to the kobold, and it's still forgotten.

When Vaarsuvius saw the family tree in Girard's Pyramid, they realized that they had killed thousands of sapient beings, and although many of them may have been rampaging evil monsters, some unknown number were not, and that they had no right to kill them. Not that they had no right to kill anybody. But that they specifically had no right to blindly judge and execute thousands of sophonts who they had never met and with whom they had no quarrel.

Not objecting to Belkar letting his cat get disgusting revenge on the kobold who shot it (in the process of helping the guild try to murder all of them again!) is extremely low on any tally of Vaarsuvius's sins. You are right that they had forgotten it. Everyone has. Because it is not memorable nor of any continued interest.

[martianmister]

Not objecting to Belkar letting his cat get disgusting revenge on the kobold who shot it (in the process of helping the guild try to murder all of them again!) is extremely low on any tally of Vaarsuvius's sins. You are right that they had forgotten it. Everyone has. Because it is not memorable nor of any continued interest.

So, what? You're agreeing with me?

[alwaysbebatman]

Agreeing with what assertion? I was under the impression that you are asserting that Mr. Scruffy's revenge on the kobold who shot him was a significant moral event in Vaarsuvius's life which they would need to specifically address to accomplish any kind of redemption. That's what I was arguing against. But maybe we are misunderstanding each other?

[Peelee]

Agreeing with what assertion? I was under the impression that you are asserting that Mr. Scruffy's revenge on the kobold who shot him was a significant moral event in Vaarsuvius's life which they would need to specifically address to accomplish any kind of redemption. That's what I was arguing against. But maybe we are misunderstanding each other?

Imean, it was significant in that it showed the audience that V was not truly trying to avoid evil or grotesque actions yet, but yes, not something that needs to be specifically addressed to show that he is trying for redemption.

[Riftwolf]

I'll vote Wrecan , though its close. Vs arc is longer, and certainly isn't over (For those arguing over the kobold, perhaps in the near future V will behave differently to their dominated victims. It does seem odd the Order kept the kobold rather than submitting him to the authorities, in retrospect), Wrecan gave us a brief cameo of likeability and one-liners. Vs just never been as likeable for me, irrespective of Wrecans origin (I didn't know him)

[alwaysbebatman]

Just based on impressions (probably confirmation bias) I could have sworn this was closer.

Here is a running tally so far.


16 vs 1 Nods
#1) http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.png Vaarsuvius 22
#16) https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Wrecan_zpsxxbwxuey.png Wrecan 10

[martianmister]

Agreeing with what assertion? I was under the impression that you are asserting that Mr. Scruffy's revenge on the kobold who shot him was a significant moral event in Vaarsuvius's life which they would need to specifically address to accomplish any kind of redemption. That's what I was arguing against. But maybe we are misunderstanding each other?

It is significant, and it should be referenced.

[Peelee]

It is significant, and it should be referenced.

Ten gold says it won't be.

[Kardwill]

And I think it's no coincidence V did that to a member of a monster race, which parallels V's failure to grasp the evil V had done by killing the black dragons even if no humans had been involved (something which V only understood much later, in the pyramid).

Yeah, V's not yet off the hook for his little private genocide. His crisis of faith only happened when he understood he just killed hundred, maybe thousand, of dragonblooded human and other halfblood and their families. His carelessness is the only crime he's really admitted to in the pyramid.
But the dragons? Killing off 25% of an entire sentient species, including the newborn? I don't remember him realizing how capital-e-Evil that was, and it was completely intentional (while the human victims were more thoughtless colateral damage - Still evil, but less than willful mass murder)

To use the fireball analogy, he burned a family home to the ground because some of them were personal enemies, then felt remorse because the neighbor's homes caught fire.

[B. Dandelion]

Yeah, V's not yet off the hook for his little private genocide. His crisis of faith only happened when he understood he just killed hundred, maybe thousand, of dragonblooded human and other halfblood and their families. His carelessness is the only crime he's really admitted to in the pyramid.
But the dragons? Killing off 25% of an entire sentient species, including the newborn? I don't remember him realizing how capital-e-Evil that was, and it was completely intentional (while the human victims were more thoughtless colateral damage - Still evil, but less than willful mass murder)

866 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html):


Vaarsuvius: Until this moment, my mind had never considered that any of the dragons that I slew were anything but ravenous killers. Can I be certain, though? Can I be sure that not one found a more peaceful existence? They were mortals with free will, after all--no matter how few chose to exercise it.

Blackwing: I guess not, but...think of how much good you did killing all the bad ones!

Vaarsuvius: A few must fall for the Greater Good? Tarquin would concur, and heartily. Perhaps, by some cold calculus, the net benefit of villains lost to innocents sacrificed may ultimately prove beneficial to the world. I can never know. But that would in no way lift the burden of the deed from my conscience, nor should it. The judgment was never mine to make!

Seems like some genuine acknowledgement of wrongdoing for killing the dragons too.

[Present 2.0]

I wonder, why People always forget those Sentences. I've read some old Discussion-Threads and this is not the first Time, someone made Kardwills Point, while completely forgetting the part quoted by B. Dandelion.

[martianmister]

Ten gold says it won't be.

Yes, as I said it's forgotten. That's the point. :smallsigh:

[elros]

I'm voting for Wrecan, since my favorite characters are him, O Chul, and Durkon's mom.

And V might be my least favorite member of OOtS. On V's best day, V is neutral alignment, and does not act according to "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment)." V also never "make[s] personal sacrifices to help others."

And on V's worst day? Clearly "debases or destroy innocent life". Maybe not as consistently as Belkar (who is clearly evil), but V makes up for it with sheer destructive power.

Sorry, but I don't buy it that V is "trying." Belkar is more evil, but he owns it and his character growth reflects an honest assessment of himself. V is arrogant, lacks personal insight, and is only upset with the results of the familicide spell, but almost nothing else. V is merely proof that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/absolute-power-corrupts-absolutely.html).

It will be more fitting to see V spend eternity in the lower planes than with any of the good characters (e.g. Roy, Durkon, Elan, even Haley).

[Present 2.0]

V also never "make[s] personal sacrifices to help others."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html

That is at least not "never". And V had absolutely nothing to gain by that and everything to lose.

[Sylian]

V also never "make[s] personal sacrifices to help others."What about V taking a risk when freeing the slaves, as well as spending several spell slots? That seems like a Good action to me, especially since V didn't really benefit personally from it at all. See: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html

Afterwards, V showed some concern for the men's safety: "Are you certain they will be capable of eluding their former captors in these mountains?" See: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0752.html

Don't get me wrong, I highly doubt V's alignment is Good, but one could make a strong case for Neutral.

[alwaysbebatman]

I'm going to self-quote the rules just to make sure the current alignment conversation doesn't confuse any new voters:


The qualifications for "Favorite" are personal and up to the decision of each balloter alone. This is not a competition for who would win in a fight, or who is the most moral... UNLESS that is what makes them YOUR favorite.

In other words, we may agree or disagree about the eventual fate of Vaarsuvius's soul, but that is not relevant to whether one should vote for them... unless it is... for YOU, specifically.

[zimmerwald1915]

About the vote, I want to say that V was in my top ten. And s/he is very relevant to the story with some great punchlines and a good arc which is not over.
Are you quite sure about that? Because Vaarsuvius is the only member of the Order outside of Elan (who utterly dominated the last book and is probably happy for the breather) to not have her personal arc treated in some way in the latest book so far. Closest she came is recapitulating her new status quo as of the last book: putting out the engine fire, ignoring - then subsequently apologizing to - Blackwing when the Ex-arch invaded the Mechane, and pining over Inkyrius. Not developing beyond it.

Giving the nod to Wrecan, who's made a better showing for himself in this book so far.

[Dr.Zero]

Not objecting to Belkar letting his cat get disgusting revenge on the kobold who shot it (in the process of helping the guild try to murder all of them again!) is extremely low on any tally of Vaarsuvius's sins. You are right that they had forgotten it. Everyone has. Because it is not memorable nor of any continued interest.

I think we see it differently. V wasn't simply not objecting. S/He was the slaver who had control over a slave,more than standing there watching as a third party, s/he had to order to the slave to submit to that. Moreover I think that the whole "His silent screams are a simphony I cannot share" is a bit more than not objecting, it's gloating. In a sadistic way.


I don't see a problem with that strip because I felt it was trying to make a point about how V was still a horrible, callous person, more comparable to Belkar than to Durkon, even if at that point V certainly liked to go all "woe is me, I feel so bad" without any deeper analysis of what V had done. And I think it's no coincidence V did that to a member of a monster race, which parallels V's failure to grasp the evil V had done by killing the black dragons even if no humans had been involved (something which V only understood much later, in the pyramid). Roy, Haley and Elan weren't present, and Durkon was too shocked and too passive to intervene beyond some feeble protestations, but that's in-character for him. The spiked tentacles, on the other hand, were never more than an implied rape joke. Totally different.

I don't see a problem with V being shown as a horrible callous persone, neither. Not in itself. Just saying that, yes, it worked! :smallbiggrin:

Anyway Elen must have known (even only because so told by Durkon) that they were mistreating the kobold, because of what he says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html).
Aside that, I wasn't talking about that regarding Elan, Haley and Roy, but more of their: "Ok, dear wizard, you got a slave that we can use as a pack animal and to trigger traps. Cool."
Granted, Roy objects to the latter use... for a moment.

I admit it's a matter of taste, but the kobold enslavement and treatment by the whole Order is one of the few things I found really disturbing in this story (the only other coming to mind, which disturbs me almost at the same level, is Tarquin crucifixing and burning people alive for the flaming "Elan", with the difference that I didn't see the latter and Tarquin is anyway an evil villain, cool as an evil villain can be, but an evil villain nonetheless, while the Order is the group of heroes, with four members namely aligned as "good").


Are you quite sure about that?

Not about V's future growth in itself, but sure about the fact that s/he is far from having dealt with all the consequences of the mistakes s/he did: we have still two IFCC calls to see, at the very least.

[Peelee]

Yes, as I said it's forgotten. That's the point. :smallsigh:

Not forgotten so much as only significant in that it showed V was still unrepentant. It doesn't need to be specifically addressed, anymore than V's casual elimination of Kubota does.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not about V's future growth in itself, but sure about the fact that s/he is far from having dealt with all the consequences of the mistakes s/he did: we have still two IFCC calls to see, at the very least.
Nothing whatsoever says we have to or will see those calls. They might happen off panel. They might never happen at all, and simply hang over Vaarsuvius's head throughout the whole story. The whole plot thread could be dropped, and the story mode nothing for it but bloat.

[alwaysbebatman]

I think we see it differently. V wasn't simply not objecting. S/He was the slaver who had control over a slave,more than standing there watching as a third party, s/he had to order to the slave to submit to that. Moreover I think that the whole "His silent screams are a simphony I cannot share" is a bit more than not objecting, it's gloating. In a sadistic way.

Yeah, there are two points of disagreement here.

1) From the way Dominated monsters and humanoids are portrayed it doesn't seem like they need to be specifically ordered to NOT do anything. Vaarsuvius didn't have to specifically order the kobold to not resist, that's the default.

2) HOWEVER, that's pretty irrelevant morally. The complicity is the same either way, but, on the gripping hand, taking petty revenge against a helpless enemy who had been recently trying to kill you is pretty damn morally neutral within the adventurers' milieu. One of the purposes of Celia's arc with Haley was to show how different an adventurer's concept of right and wrong is from a normal peacable being's. The weakness of any objection (from established Good-aligned characters) to the kobold's treatment is pretty solid evidence that within the context of this book Vaarsuvius's actions are not any sort of major crime. UNLIKE Familicide, which is a horrific crime by any standard.

In the real world, mind control would be a (thankfully mostly theoretical) horrible offence against consent and the sanctity of the mind. In the D&D world, it's a tool commonly used by arcane casters on all sides of the alignment wheel.

I think that Vaarsuvius's treatment of the kobold in context counts as no more than minor nastiness in a long life of murderhoboing, much of which has been off panel. The sort of behavior that we may see Vaarsuvius back off of since the revelation at Girard's Pyramid, but not something that needs to be specifically addressed.

[alwaysbebatman]

Nothing whatsoever says we have to or will see those calls. They might happen off panel. They might never happen at all, and simply hang over Vaarsuvius's head throughout the whole story. The whole plot thread could be dropped, and the story mode nothing for it but bloat.

That seems deeply unlikely. I am confident that there is a plan for exactly how the remaining 2 time outs will be used.

[hroþila]

1) From the way Dominated monsters and humanoids are portrayed it doesn't seem like they need to be specifically ordered to NOT do anything. Vaarsuvius didn't have to specifically order the kobold to not resist, that's the default.
For what it's worth, I think Vaarsuvius did order the kobold to lie down and open his mouth.

[Kardwill]

866 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html):



Seems like some genuine acknowledgement of wrongdoing for killing the dragons too.

Ooops. I kinda remembered him aknowledging his wrongdoings, but his initial humanoid-centric guilt trip was all I could find during this discussion, so it colored my viewpoint.

But yeah, the comic you linked shows him feeling guilty over killing "monsters" (only the potential "good" ones, sure, but it's clearly a start)

Thanks for pointing it out :)

[martianmister]

Not forgotten so much as only significant in that it showed V was still unrepentant. It doesn't need to be specifically addressed, anymore than V's casual elimination of Kubota does.

V's casual elimination is already adressed by Elan.

[Peelee]

V's casual elimination is already adressed by Elan.

Yes, V seemed to take Elan's objections to heart. Why, I remember fondly when V came to terms with that murder in [strip not found].

[martianmister]

Yes, V seemed to take Elan's objections to heart. Why, I remember fondly when V came to terms with that murder in [strip not found].

V didn't because that was supposed to be V's start of darkness, which lead inti familicide.

[Peelee]

V didn't because that was supposed to be V's start of darkness, which lead inti familicide.

So it was only notable to show V's attitude and state of mind before a hugely significant event?

Huh. If only that argument could also fit another action.

[martianmister]

So it was only notable to show V's attitude and state of mind before a hugely significant event?

Huh. If only that argument could also fit another action.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The point is that no one adressed V's actions against the kobold.

[alwaysbebatman]

Elan addressed Kubota's killing, because he had given his parole, and Elan had an ethical objection to violating that. (I don't see how this is relevant to Vaarsuvius's character development, but still: it is a fact.)

Nobody made any particular objection to Mr. Scruffy's petty revenge on the kobold because nobody in the party cared about that. Not then. Not now. Not ever. It will never be brought up again.

(The closest thing to a moral qualm that anybody in the party had about the kobold was Roy's reservations about having the kobold "attempt to disarm" the traps. And it has been well-established that Roy has unusually soft-hearted ideas about unnecessary slaughter and abuse of "always-CE" monsters.)

It is in no way relevant to Vaarsuvius's story, other than (as Peelee has pointed out) a demonstration of some casual cruelty foreshadowing the rock-bottom-hitting in the elf's near future in Girard's Pyramid.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The point is that no one adressed V's actions against the kobold.

It seems like you're unsure of what YOU'RE trying to say. Let me remind you:
Yet, V still don't acknowledge what V did to the kobold, and it's still forgotten.
Elan addressing Kubota murder isn't V addressing Kubota's murder. V not acknowledging what he did to Kubota makes it directly analogous to what you took issue with to begin with. If you want to change your argument to, "nobody addressed the kobold incident," then as ABBatman pointed out, that has jack-all to do with V's delopment.

[martianmister]

V did address Kubota's murder. V admitted that V don't care about the lives of people V don't care about. V then abandoned the ship and followed the same line of villainous thinking at using familicide spell. What V did to the kobold (literal slavery and gratuitous torture) is treated in a single strip and forgotten afterwards, and no one ever addressed it again.

[Peelee]

V did address Kubota's murder. V admitted that V don't care about the lives of people V don't care about. V then abandoned the ship and followed the same line of villainous thinking at using familicide spell. What V did to the kobold (literal slavery and gratuitous torture) is treated in a single strip and forgotten afterwards, and no one ever addressed it again.

V preacknowledged what he did to the kobold; he admitted he doesn't care about the lives of people he doesn't care about.

Oh, look, it says the exact same thing about his character development: nothing at all. Funny, that.

If you take issue with V not repenting for the kobold, and you do not take issue with V not repenting for Kubota, you have some impressive cognitive dissonance. If you care about one, you must care about both. If you disregard one as unimportant, you must disregard both as unimportant. Anything else is hypocrisy.

[Dr.Zero]

V preacknowledged what he did to the kobold; he admitted he doesn't care about the lives of people he doesn't care about.

Oh, look, it says the exact same thing about his character development: nothing at all. Funny, that.

If you take issue with V not repenting for the kobold, and you do not take issue with V not repenting for Kubota, you have some impressive cognitive dissonance. If you care about one, you must care about both. If you disregard one as unimportant, you must disregard both as unimportant. Anything else is hypocrisy.

Wait, wait, wait.

I hoped to avoid to clutter the thread, but I, for one, don't care about Kubota and care about the kobold and don't feel hypocrite.

Kubota? He was executed.
Quite quickly, too.
V had not the right to do? Probably. That is something between plain murder and an execution by a vigilante. Still fast, no strings attached.

The kobold? Prolonged slavery, in a situation of "I've no mouth and I must scream", kept prisoner in his own body (from the description of the "silent screams" V does). And tortured.

That might be just me, but between being in that situation (and then dying anyway, by the way) and getting killed quickly with a disintegrate spell (which is more or less the equivalent of a bullet in the brain), I feel inclined to the latter.

And I would have not felt so disturbed by the whole thing if, after using the kobold to win the fight against Zz'dtri, V simply disintegrated him. Callous and horrible sure, but better than mind rape and torture. The domination justified by being in a situation of life or death. But keeping it after that? No, it's completely different, for me.

Other people don't feel the same? Fine. I acknowledged it is a matter of "tastes". But that is far from being hypocrite.

Now, do I care for the thing being addressed in the comic, now? Meh, not really. The kobold indeed was, in himself, quite irrelevant and V and B would have not a particular reason to address it, probably. It was probably used to show they were terrible humanoid beings, and for me it worked very well.

Regarding the other members of the party, like I said, I prefer to consider it an "out of character, mass" spell.

[martianmister]

V preacknowledged what he did to the kobold

Where?


he admitted he doesn't care about the lives of people he doesn't care about.

Funny, V seems to care about him enough to torture him.


If you take issue with V not repenting for the kobold, and you do not take issue with V not repenting for Kubota, you have some impressive cognitive dissonance. If you care about one, you must care about both. If you disregard one as unimportant, you must disregard both as unimportant. Anything else is hypocrisy.

Difference is there's no consequences to V's actions. Kubota's murder is what caused V to abandon the ship and the order and that's what caused V's fall from grace and divorce. Elan didn't just forget what V did and he actually do something about it. Durkon? Nothing.

[Peelee]

Wait, wait, wait.

I hoped to avoid to clutter the thread, but I, for one, don't care about Kubota and care about the kobold and don't feel hypocrite.

Kubota? He was executed.
Quite quickly, too.
V had not the right to do? Probably. That is something between plain murder and an execution by a vigilante. Still fast, no strings attached.
Nope. It's straight murder. V thought Kubota was guilty, because Elan had him as a captive. V also thought that Nale was Elan at one point, so we know that V's assumptions are not necessarily accurate. V was judge, jury, and executioner, all in a trial he didn't even bother to hear.

Sure, it wasn't torture of an enslaved creature, but it was V disregarding the life of another for the sole reason that V didn't bother to give a crap. If it's specific acts you care about, then drawing a line between murder and torture is fuzzy at best, and even moreso (not to mention trivial) when genocide is on the spectrum. If it's V's wanton disregard for people who arent himself, then that's currently being addressed, and caring about one event and not the other is either hypocritical or senseless.

If you care about the specific acts, then there's no resolution to the debate with me, since I care about the wanton disregard for others.


Difference is there's no consequences to V's actions. Kubota's murder is what caused V to abandon the ship and the order and that's what caused V's fall from grace and divorce. Elan didn't just forget what V did and he actually do something about it. Durkon? Nothing.

V had no consequences from Kubota murder. V chose to leave the ship, he was not forced off. V chose to make the Faustian deal, the IFCC didn't even try to play the "your soul is already damned" card. V chose to keep the splice. V has not had any ill effects from Elan. If you care about consequences, it's very strange for you to not care about Kubota's murder, since that was scot-free for V so far.

[alwaysbebatman]

@martianmister: You are mixing up correlation and causation. Kubota's execution and Vaarsuvius leaving the ship share a common cause, but neither caused the other. Elan couldn't have made Vaarsuvius leave, and if he had tried to convince the elf to stay, he would not have been able to. Elan's anger and disappointment with Vaarsuvius did not lead to the events to follow in any way.

What did? The key is the dream the elf had when we first join them on the island. All of the elf's mistakes and poor judgement calls after the battle of Sapphire City stem from their ineffectuality during the defeat. Watching the soldiers die all around while safely invisible but powerless to help while the dying soldiers cursed the elf's worthless magic led them to a near obsessive focus on solving the party's current difficulties specifically with their own magic. And also to an unwillingness to trance that harmed their health and clear-headedness.

The elf's impatience with the subplots and contributions of other protagonists all stems from their obsession with proving that soldier's dying words wrong, proving that their magic is not worthless. Kubota's death, leaving the party, foolishly expending their spells on Qarr, leaving themselves vulnerable, taking the fiend's deal over their alternative solution, all of these mistakes have a common source, and it's nothing to do with the fact that the elf "deserved it."

We all "deserve it." To quote a certain baldheaded Fighter "stop misapplying the philosophical concept of karma."

[elros]

I'm going to self-quote the rules just to make sure the current alignment conversation doesn't confuse any new voters:



In other words, we may agree or disagree about the eventual fate of Vaarsuvius's soul, but that is not relevant to whether one should vote for them... unless it is... for YOU, specifically.
I'm pointing out the reasons why I don't like V as much as the other characters, and others are free to voice their opinions. Killing Kabuto is one thing, but threatening Elan is quite another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html). I reminds me what the Giant wrote about Xykon, "He's kind of a ****."

[alwaysbebatman]

There's been a LOT of debate in this thread about Vaarsuvius's alignment, worthiness, redeemability, etc. It's not just you at all. I just wanted to make sure that it's crystal clear that, while this thread prompted that debate, that's not what's being voted on...

[Kardwill]

There's been a LOT of debate in this thread about Vaarsuvius's alignment, worthiness, redeemability, etc. It's not just you at all. I just wanted to make sure that it's crystal clear that, while this thread prompted that debate, that's not what's being voted on...

Yup, I dislike V's ruthlessness and "smarter than thou" attitude, but I still vote for him since he's an interesting (if very flawed) character ^^

[alwaysbebatman]

Arguing about Vaarsuvius has been fun, but this closes in about 24 hours-- get your last-minute votes in!


16 vs 1 Nods
#1) http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.png Vaarsuvius 22
#16) https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Wrecan_zpsxxbwxuey.png Wrecan 11


Winner goes on tomorrow to face Haley Starshine.

[ijon]

I'm going with wrecan, as in WRECAN THE COMPETITION

this is a very well justified vote

[alwaysbebatman]

He only needs ten more to tie things up.

[ijon]

that just means it's time to make 11 alts, which couldn't possibly go wrong

[Svata]

Vaarsuvius is a more well-developed character (as they're one of the main ones), but Wrecan was awesome, and a great tribute to a great guy. Eh, let's toss a vote Wrecan's way.

[alwaysbebatman]

Wrecan has had an amazing run of five votes in a row in his favor, but he is still 9 votes short of a tie, (which would force sudden death.) If you want to make it even closer, (or the opposite,) this will only be open for a few more hours....

Currently 22/13 in Vaarsuvius's favor. The winner will go on to face Haley Starshine in a matchup that starts right after this one closes.

[Deliverance]

V is for Vaarsuvius.

[alwaysbebatman]

Vaarsuvius beats Wrecan by a margin of 23/13. Vaarsuvius will face Haley Starshine in the second round, and that matchup will begin this evening, as soon as I can get it posted.