What casting class for a Saint template?

[LaRayna]

As the title suggest, I am curious as to what base spell casting class you guys think the Saint template would be good for? Wanted to do a necro build

http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/saint.shtml

[Telonius]

Unfortunately many (though not all) Necromancy spells are going to disqualify you from the template. The website you linked to doesn't mention it, but in BoED it states that you need three Exalted feats, must be 6th level, and can't ever have lost Exalted feats due to an intentional Evil action (even if you've atoned). Unless your DM is ruling that Undead-related stuff isn't inherently [Evil], a single use of something like Animate Dead will drop the three Exalted feats you need to qualify for it, and make it so you can never get the template again.

[LaRayna]

That's where the hellbred race comes in

[SyrusRayne]

I'm not sure "evil exception" works that way.


Evil Exception (Ex): Regardless of alignment or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor and never gains negative levels while wielding evil magic items, such as unholy weapons or demon armor. This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct. For example, using a +1 unholy longsword to slay orcs would not violate a hellbred paladin's code of conduct, though using the weapon to kill another paladin would.
Emphasis mine.


A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she atones for her violations.
It's an evil act, not just an [Evil] one. So... Talk to your DM, I suppose.

[Zombulian]

I'm not sure "evil exception" works that way.


Emphasis mine.


It's an evil act, not just an [Evil] one. So... Talk to your DM, I suppose.

Well those quotes could actually be used to argue that a Good Hellbred *could* cast those spells. For one thing, the pedantic point to be made is that it specifies it doesn't protect from losing class features, but the Saint template isn't a class. Additionally, it says that a Hellbred Paladin could use an evil sword to do good. So how's that different from using undead to kill baddies?

Edit: On topic with the OP, it's not a common class but the Sha'ir could probably work with this concept. Saint gives a hefty bonus to Charisma and that's what Sha'ir cast off of, and their spell availability is closer to a Wizard than a Sorcerer, even though they technically have a spells known list.

[torrasque666]

That's where the hellbred race comes in
But if you go that route, you can't get Saint either. A single Devil-Touched feat is enough to prevent you from taking Exalted feats.

[Ciolfire]

For one thing, the pedantic point to be made is that it specifies it doesn't protect from losing class features, but the Saint template isn't a class.

It's fine to make a pedantic point but then...


Regardless of alignment or class restrictions [...]

It doesn't specifies anywhere that it offers anything else than protecting against negative levels while wielding evil magic items and being able to cast evil spells regardless of alignment or class. So of course it doesn't mention anything else since it's out of scope.

[Necroticplague]

Additionally, it says that a Hellbred Paladin could use an evil sword to do good. So how's that different from using undead to kill baddies?
Using an Unholy weapon isn't automatically an evil action. Animating or creating undead is (BoVD, p. 9).

[Wartex1]

Ask your GM, especially if your character is a devout follower of a good god of Undeath (maybe the undead created this way aren't proper undead, but rather corpses animated by positive energy or by divine spirits). Favored Soul or Cleric could be pretty good, though for necromancy specifically, you'd want a Dread Necromancer. Their spellcasting is Charisma based (so the template not only gives you a bonus +2 to DCs for your spells and other abilities, your boosted Charisma improves it even further), and they get the ability to Rebuke Undead.

Also, creating undead being evil can be rather setting specific. If I remember, there was one setting where it was explicitly non-evil and necromancers were extremely common as undead are a hugely expendable labor force.

[Zombulian]

Using an Unholy weapon isn't automatically an evil action. Animating or creating undead is (BoVD, p. 9).

But it also says

Regardless of alignment or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor

Exalted is an Alignment restriction yea?

[Necroticplague]

But it also says

Exalted is an Alignment restriction yea?
It says the Hellbred can cast them. It says nothing about making them not Evil actions. That line is referring to things like this:

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.
So a Good cleric is physically unable to cast Evil spells. A Good Hellbred Cleric can cast evil spells, but it's an evil action, so he's gonna have to be careful. Unfortunately, Paladin and Exalted codes are much stricter than Cleric codes.

If being Hellbred gave you free reign to cast Evil spells, it would have language similar to the Malconvoker.

[ZamielVanWeber]

On topic: pick a Wis caster. Saint gives you a bonus to AC based on Wis so why not capitalize on that? Cleric is always a classic.

[Telonius]

Alignment issues aside, the main problem with Saint on a Necromancer build is that it applies a +2 Level adjustment. That's a pretty big problem, since you generally don't want to lose caster levels. Buyoff can help a lot, but you'd generally want a class that doesn't depend quite as heavily on casting. That's usually at odds with Necromancy stuff, since the best classes for it would be your full casters (Cleric and Wizard).

Shameless self-plug, but I did put together a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19308582&postcount=40) for a Villainous Competition a while back that could be adapted to what you're asking for. You'd need to find something to replace Dirgesinger since it's nongood-only. I'd suggest Mourner, if Dragon Magazine is available; more levels in Bard; or some other thematic class or prestige class. It would mesh pretty well with the bonus to Charisma, as well as the bonuses to attack (since the build is often going to be closer to the front lines than a typical Necromancer).

[Thurbane]

On topic: pick a Wis caster. Saint gives you a bonus to AC based on Wis so why not capitalize on that? Cleric is always a classic.

Seconded. The Saint get's a larger bonus to Cha, but since you're getting Wis to AC, Cleric is great. You can use the extra Cha to fuel turn attempts and feats that use them.

There are a few Cleric necromancy spells that don't involve undead or have the Evil tag.

In regards to how Hellbred's Evil Exception interacts with being Exalted, I'd definitely put this in "ask your DM" territory. We can argue RAW back and forth, but in the end it will usually be the DM who makes the final decision.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It almost hurts suggesting this but something like fighter 2/full BAB 3/Shiba protector 1/Divine crusader 10 with Lost Traditions and Domain Customization could do really well as a Saint. You are using 3rd party and Dragon Magazine content at this point though...

[Yogibear41]

The Saint, shouldn't have been a template, and instead should have been rolled into the Paladin class imo. It would make the paladin worth playing, and also not give a full spellcaster an amazing template, but what do I know. (coming from the guy who once had a CE Cleric running around with an evil version of the saint template)

[Feantar]

On the subject of doing misdeeds and falling out of sainthood, there's a weird FR feat called Heretic of the Faith that sort of gives you carte blanche to violate ethical codes(exalted is sort of such?) and not fall. You'd need to have become a saint under a deity however; as in, you weren't just so nice so began not requiring a night-light one day.

[DeTess]

On the subject of doing misdeeds and falling out of sainthood, there's a weird FR feat called Heretic of the Faith that sort of gives you carte blanche to violate ethical codes(exalted is sort of such?) and not fall. You'd need to have become a saint under a deity however; as in, you weren't just so nice so began not requiring a night-light one day.

Sorry, but that won't work. I'm not sure if I can quote part of this feat here, but it basically says that you can violate codes of conduct, but not class alignment restrictions (though it does make cleric alignment restrictions slightly more flexible). AFAIK, Exalted is an alignment.