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clash
2017-08-30, 11:29 AM
I am looking to make martial fighting more interesting than just "spamming" sword attack. I want the design to be similiar to battle master maneuvers but instead of costing a resource function and are balanced as at will abilities.


Hamstring- Make a melee weapon attack against a target within 5ft of you. The attack does not add your relevant ability modifier to damage. If you hit you can choose to target one of it's legs or wings reducing it's corresponding speed by half until the start of your next turn. If the target is hit with hamstring again while it's speed is already reduced in this way it is instead reduced to 0. If the target is hit with hamstring while launched they fall prone upon landing.
Launch- Make a melee weapon attack against a target that is large or smaller. The attack does not add your relevant ability modifier to damage. If you hit the target they are sent flying 5ft up into the air. If the target is mounted they are knocked off their mount. The target is considered launched until the end of your current turn.
Lunge - Make a melee weapon attack with a piercing weapon. The attack gains an additional 5ft of reach but may not add your relevant ability modifier to damage. Additionally, you may attack through a launched creature's space with this maneuver.
Slam - You attempt to slam a target disorientating them. Make a melee attack with a bludgeoning weapon. If you hit the target has disadvantage it's next attack roll before the start of your next turn. If the target is slammed while under the effects of a previous slam attack, it instead has disadvantage on all attack rolls made in the duration. If the target is launched slamming knocks them back 10 ft.
Spin - You spin around in a wide slash attacking targets around you. You must be wielding a slashing weapon to make a spin attack. Roll once for damage on the attack, and each creature within 5ft of you must succeed on a dexterity saving throw or take the amount of damage rolled.

Warning Shot- You graze the target to scare it. Make a ranged weapon attack against a target. If you hit, the target must immediately use their reaction to move 5ft in a direction you choose or you gain advantage on ranged attack rolls made against it until the end of your turn. Creatures that are immune to fear are immune to this effect.
Rapid Shot - You fire off multiple shots in quick succession at close range targets. Make a ranged attack with a piercing weapon against 2 separate targets within 15ft of you.
Concussive shot- You aim for the targets head to make them lose focus. Make a ranged attack with a bludgeoning weapon. If you hit the target has disadvantage on checks to maintain concentration until the start of your next turn.



For example:
Slash: This is your normal attack. Just does weapon damage.

Not sure if the techniques should be balanced against a hindrance:
Thrust: Add 5ft to range when making the attack but you provoke an opportunity attack from enemies within 5ft of you when you make the attack.

Or against damage like cantrips:
Trip Attack: When you hit with a weapon attack deal 1 damage die lower for damage but they must succeed on a strength save or fall prone.

Or just add it on:
Slam: When you hit with a melee attack the target must make a strength save or be pushed back 5ft.

Or balance weapons to give them certain abilities and remove the restrictions on switching weapons to open up some combos:
Warhammer(d6-d8): When you hit with an attack with a Warhammer you disorient your target. They have disadvantage on their next attack roll.

What I dont want is too make simply attacking suboptimal, instead just gives other choice for the strategic minded.

Also any suggestions for actual abilities would be great too.

Kane0
2017-08-30, 07:57 PM
Well how about stealing from 4e's at will attacks?

Hit and move
Hit and shove
Hit and prone
Hit and grapple
Hit and 'mark'
Hit and hit another
Hit and buff yourself
Hit and buff ally
Hit and debuff enemy
Etcetera

The only problem is stepping on already available abilities (swap out a weapon attack for a shove/grapple/disarm/overrun), if your options are too good you'd never want to sacrifice an attack to pull any maneuvers.

clash
2017-08-31, 01:00 PM
I don't really care much about replacing existing techniques. I just want the special attacks to be balanced against straight attacking somehow

GalacticAxekick
2017-08-31, 03:50 PM
I'm very interested in giving martial characters round-to-round options, so I love where you're going with this.

But because options for shoving, grappling, disarming and moving already exist, tying watered-down versions of those to weakened attacks actually has very little effect on martial gameplay. It worked in 4e, which was grid based and deeply structured. But in 5e it'd probably amount to very much.

I'd try to focus on effects based on the equipment used, acquired over time like spells, free to use like cantrip's. For instance:

Piercing weapons can make opportunity attacks when a foe enters reach.
Slashing weapons can make opportunity attacks when a foe moves within reach
Bludgeoning weapons reduce the target's speed to 0 for the rest of the turn (effectively stunning the target of their OA)
If you move at least 10 feet before attacking with a two-handed or versatile weapon, you are charging and your foe must make a save or be shoved
If you have nor moved since the start of your last turn and you make an OA with a two-handed or versatile weapon, you are braced and your foe must make a save or be shoved
When you Dodge or Disengage while carrying a shield, you shelter nearby allies, granting them the same benefits until the start of your next turn
When you grapple a creature, you can also blind, deafen, restrain or silence them until they escape.
When you shove a creature with your empty hand, they are thrown as far or high as your running jump
Parry reaction that adds proficiency to AC
Riposte reaction that attacks someone who misses you
Main-Gauche bonus action that uses a light weapon in the off-hand to make an additional reaction
Slashing weapon attack that hits all adjacent creatures but does not add ability to damage
Bludgeoning weapon attack that uses dex save rather than attack roll, thereby pounding through armour but being easier to dodge
Piercing weapon attack that lets you attack twice at a -5 penalty, thereby increasing crit chance but otherwise decreasing chance of hit against foes with decent A.C.
Forgo bonus dice (crits, sneak attacks, etc) to instead inflict status effects (blindness, deafness, fear, reduced speed, etc)

Kerleth
2017-09-01, 10:38 AM
What if you made it so that any attack that you apply a "maneuver" to, you don't get your ability modifier as a damage bonus? Straightforward and easy to do at the table, let's you mix regular and special attacks together in one attack action, and gives you options without just making regular attacks obsolete.

clash
2017-09-01, 12:27 PM
Thanks everyone for the ideas. I think I kinda like balancing against removing the ability mod to damage. Given that none of these will add ability mod to the damage, how do these look as a first try at it:

Hamstring(Any) - Reduces movement speed of the enemy to 0ft until the start of your next turn. If the target is launched hamstring knocks them prone.

Launch(Melee) - When you hit a target with a launch attack it sends enemy flying 5ft up into the air. If the target is mounted they are knocked off their mount. They are considered launched until the end of your current turn.
Lunge(Piercing, Melee) - When you make a lunge attack you gain an additional 10ft reach on the attack. You may attack through a launched creates space with this maneuver.
Slam(Bludgeoning, Melee) - You attempt to slam the target disorientating them. If you hit the target has disadvantage on attack rolls until the start of your next turn. If the target is launched slamming knocks them back 10 ft.
Spin(Slashing, Melee) - You use a wide slash to attack each enemy within 5ft of you. You make a single attack and damage roll against all the enemies.

Warning Shot(Ranged) - You graze the target to scare it. If you hit, the target must immediately use their reaction to move half their speed or you gain advantage on attack rolls against it until the end of your turn.
Rapid Fire(Ranged, Piercing) - Make 2 shots in quick succession.
Concussive shot(Ranged, Bludgeoning) - You aim for the targets head to make them lose focus. If you hit the target has disadvantage on checks to maintain concentration until the start of your next turn.

As a second question, which of these would be balanced against a maximum +10 mod to damage instead of a max of +5?

JBPuffin
2017-09-01, 11:10 PM
Thanks everyone for the ideas. I think I kinda like balancing against removing the ability mod to damage. Given that none of these will add ability mod to the damage, how do these look as a first try at it:

Hamstring(Any) - Reduces movement speed of the enemy to 0ft until the start of your next turn. If the target is launched hamstring knocks them prone.

Launch(Melee) - When you hit a target with a launch attack it sends enemy flying 5ft up into the air. If the target is mounted they are knocked off their mount. They are considered launched until the end of your current turn.
Lunge(Piercing, Melee) - When you make a lunge attack you gain an additional 10ft reach on the attack. You may attack through a launched creates space with this maneuver.
Slam(Bludgeoning, Melee) - You attempt to slam the target disorientating them. If you hit the target has disadvantage on attack rolls until the start of your next turn. If the target is launched slamming knocks them back 10 ft.
Spin(Slashing, Melee) - You use a wide slash to attack each enemy within 5ft of you. You make a single attack and damage roll against all the enemies.

Warning Shot(Ranged) - You graze the target to scare it. If you hit, the target must immediately use their reaction to move half their speed or you gain advantage on attack rolls against it until the end of your turn.
Rapid Fire(Ranged, Piercing) - Make 2 shots in quick succession.
Concussive shot(Ranged, Bludgeoning) - You aim for the targets head to make them lose focus. If you hit the target has disadvantage on checks to maintain concentration until the start of your next turn.

As a second question, which of these would be balanced against a maximum +10 mod to damage instead of a max of +5?

Rapid Shot is definitely a bad idea - extra attacks are a 5th level ability for a reason. The rest I think are okay, honestly.

Lalliman
2017-09-02, 09:52 AM
Hamstring(Any) - Reduces movement speed of the enemy to 0ft until the start of your next turn. If the target is launched hamstring knocks them prone.

Launch(Melee) - When you hit a target with a launch attack it sends enemy flying 5ft up into the air. If the target is mounted they are knocked off their mount. They are considered launched until the end of your current turn.

Lunge(Piercing, Melee) - When you make a lunge attack you gain an additional 10ft reach on the attack. You may attack through a launched creates space with this maneuver.

Slam(Bludgeoning, Melee) - You attempt to slam the target disorientating them. If you hit the target has disadvantage on attack rolls until the start of your next turn. If the target is launched slamming knocks them back 10 ft.

Spin(Slashing, Melee) - You use a wide slash to attack each enemy within 5ft of you. You make a single attack and damage roll against all the enemies.

Warning Shot(Ranged) - You graze the target to scare it. If you hit, the target must immediately use their reaction to move half their speed or you gain advantage on attack rolls against it until the end of your turn.

Rapid Fire(Ranged, Piercing) - Make 2 shots in quick succession.

Concussive shot(Ranged, Bludgeoning) - You aim for the targets head to make them lose focus. If you hit the target has disadvantage on checks to maintain concentration until the start of your next turn.

As a second question, which of these would be balanced against a maximum +10 mod to damage instead of a max of +5?

I like these, conceptually. Launch opens up some fun combos, but is very video-gamey / wuxia-ish, which some people won't appreciate. I'd definitely want to know about these rules before character creation, because the mere existence of the launch ability lends a different tone to melee combat, and might affect the type of character I choose to play. Anyways, my thoughts on the specifics.

Hamstring seems perfectly balanced. Compared to grappling it gains some extra damage, but only lasts for one round and doesn't allow you to move the target. The combo with launch is potent, since it prevents the target from getting up, but it's not too much for how hard it is to pull off. It's basically a less-reliable but more damaging alternative to shove + grapple.

Lunge: 10 feet is a lot of distance. I'm not sure how to imagine someone attacking from 15 feet away with a dagger. 5 feet would be more reasonable, and would be enough to avoid the melee range of most enemies.

Slam is fine. The penalty is sticker than knocking someone prone, but only hinders your offence, not your defence. The launch combo is cool, and seems balanced given the chance to pull it off.

Spin is very powerful. Depending on your weapon, you usually only need two adjacent targets to make this worth using. If you have three or more, you'd be a fool not to use it. I'm not sure how to balance it. You might be better off turning this one into the melee version of Rapid Fire instead, with only two targets.

Warning Shot doesn't specify a direction, so it's very likely to be beneficial to your target. If there's no melee attackers nearby, they can just move in whatever direction they wish, including closer to you. You could force them to take an opportunity attack, but as currently written you would need two allies adjacent to the target for that to work. If there's only one, the target can just spin a circle around them. Overall, this ability is just kind of odd. I would change it to moving the target 5 feet in a direction of your choice. Shoving at range, basically, which is a niche ability that doesn't really exist otherwise, and might be valuable to have.

Rapid Fire is fine by itself: instead of dealing 1d8+5, you deal 2d8, which is basically the same. But it becomes problematic when combined with various damage bonuses, such as Hunter's Mark, Sharpshooter or Sneak Attack. (Sneak Attack can't happen twice, but you'll get two chances to land it.) You could perhaps add that special damage bonuses can only apply to the first arrow.

Concussive Shot: One might wonder why Concussive Shot and Slam, which are thematically similar, have such different effects. Mechanically though, this is pretty cool, giving archers a new niche as mage-disruptors.

As for your final question, all of these are way worse if your attack stat is 30 instead of 20, because you're missing out on about 2/3 of your damage instead of half. Stats approaching 30 are mostly unheard of for PCs though, unless the DM hands out Belts of Giant's Strength, or home rules are in place.

Edit: I now notice that Hamstring is (Any). Should probably make that melee-only, otherwise any melee-based opponent becomes a joke to a character with a bow.

clash
2017-09-04, 12:03 PM
Great feedback on these.

I have added the list to the initial post with the following updates so far.

Hamstring: melee only.
Lunge: reduced to 5ft
Warning shot: The target must move 5ft in a direction you choose or you get advantage.

I dont want to reduce the ones that are a bit strong just yet, and it is related to my second question. In my games weapon attacks deal damage equal to weapon die + ability mod + proficiency bonus. So it ranges from +5 to off the start to a max of +10.

What changes do I need to make to balance against this? Do I just need to still allow proficiency mod and only remove the ability mod to damage?

demonslayerelf
2017-09-04, 04:13 PM
Removing the modifier(Or both, if you think up a more powerful "WAC") should be fine on a damage basis.

I think the real problem is saving throws. There are no saving throws, and that basically means your fighter 20 will hamstring them, then launch them, then slam them, then hit them again, and there's nothing they can do about it.(Alternatively, a goblin might use a couple of these AGAINST your fighter 20, and make them look like a chump.)

Other possible ideas:
Characters know a number of "Weapon Attack Cantrips" equal to their proficiency modifier, then some classes get extras.(Fighters would probably get all of them, for instance.)

Monsters also know them, and a few of their own.(For instance, your centaurs wouldn't just slam, or anything, they would charge and trample, etc.)

Instead of rapid shot essentially doubling your attacks each turn(I mean, ranged is powerful enough already), maybe your rapid shot becomes something like an arrow flurry, where you shoot a ton of arrows in a sort of "5-foot radius" attack.

Cheers, love the idea, mate, keep up the good work.

clash
2017-09-04, 04:43 PM
Keep in mind for a fighter to do that combo he would have to be at least level 11. He would need to hit with all the attacks and he would lose out on 15 dmg that he could have dealt if he just attacked so I think given that saves are not really needed. I think I might limit spin to 2 adjacent enemies and fire rapid shot what if the first had to hit to make the second? That seems like a good compromise to me. Not sure how I would do a cone idea

demonslayerelf
2017-09-04, 04:56 PM
Problem.
A fighter only needs to be level 5, and wield two weapons, or action surge.
Alternatively, anything with two attacks can by wielding two weapons.

In addition, imagine this reality;
Your 11th level party is fighting a dragon(Or something else big and "screw-off" style.)
Let's say a fighter, a barbarian, a ranger, and a druid.
The fighter slams the dragon. Now the dragon has disadvantage on all attacks. Then the fighter hamstrings the dragon. Now they can't move, period.
Or the barbarian does these things. Regardless.
The fighter and barbarian each take one side of the dragon, and every single turn, they attempt to hamstring and slam the dragon.(With 5 attacks(At advantage, if you use flanking rules), it's almost a guarantee 2 hit.) They have advantage from flanking, the dragon can't move, can only hit one with their breath weapon, has disadvantage on all attacks, and is being shot by arrows and magic.(Just as an added bonus, your ranger can just do warning shots; The dragon can't move, so if the first hits, the second has advantage.)

clash
2017-09-04, 06:19 PM
This doesn't seem like a problem so much as something that needs tweaking. They are already killing the dragon half as slow in order to keep him pegged down. He still gets legendary actions and can attack everyone around him as a reaction and even at disadvantage has a considerable chance to hit. Not too mention in order to even get into melee with the dragon both characters had to overcome frightened presence and have the dragon on the ground. So it would never work on a smart dragon to begin with and allows the big beafie guys to actually prevent the squishies from getting attacked which is something 5e is surely lacking in options to do. They could grapple and shove the dragon to achieve a similar And you wouldn't have to hit each turn. Even then a little bit of tweaking would solve any problems. You can only slam one size larger. Hamstring only affects walking speed and warning shot would take a bit of wording but it could easily be restricted to only work if the target can actually move if necessary. Let me know what you think

demonslayerelf
2017-09-04, 10:06 PM
I see several problems.

First is thinking they're killing them at half speed. You said you have proficiency mod, ability mod, AND weapon damage. Say 11th level, that's (With a longsword because why not) 1d10+5+4. Compare to 1d10+4. At worst, that's 2/3rds damage, and only in assuming that every attack is made with a weapon attack cantrip. Only two would each round, so depending on the round, that could be as little as 10 out of almost 100 damage, and at most, 10 out of 20 possible, assuming minimal damage and only 2 hit.

Secondly, I used the example of a dragon, but the point was that this works on every single enemy the party would come across.

Third, the problem is that both grappling and shoving are contested. They don't just happen, as these effects do, on a hit. And if you think you have a character who isn't a barbarian 20(Excluding spells. Bigby's hand could probably do it, as could shapechange/true polymorph, but that's not the point.) who's going to essentially wrestle a dragon to the ground, there's a problem.

Lastly, the new fixes you added are basically just ways to get around putting in saving throws. I have no clue what your aversion to them is, when they're actually very simple to do. Because of 5e's low numbers, there's nothing too unbalancing until you get into inhuman levels(The best you'll get without magic is a barbarian 20 with 24 strength having a 21 DC.) It solves the previously discussed "dragon issue," because a dragon has a good chance of not being effected because they have a high strength save.

Further, normal magical cantrips also demand saving throws on several occasions, usually for either no or half damage, or to avoid an effect.

And, going back a few posts, it answers Spin and Rapid Fire; It's a radius effect, make dex saves or take damage.

Basically, Saving Throws are great.

clash
2017-09-05, 01:21 PM
I dont have any problems with saving throws, what I am trying to avoid is having an attack roll and a saving throw on top of it. I dont want them to have 2 points of failure. I went with attack rolls because they seemed more fitting conceptually to me. If you think it is appropriate for any of the above (obviously spin and rapid shot aside as those have been noted) to have a save instead of an attack roll that is certainly reasonable.

Other than legendary resistances though, I am not sure I see the gain. Taking the adult black dragon as an example. Their best save is con for a +10 as opposed to a 19 ac. So a fighter with +5 str mod and +4 prof at that level would have 50% chance of hitting, and using a con save the dc=17 the dragon would have 35% chance of being affected. Is it substantial? maybe. But as soon as it is a strength save the dragon now has only a +6 so 55% chance of failing. The odd of effecting the creature as per usual are better if you can target a weaker save. If one is overpowered it seems the other would be as well which is why I suggested restrictions rather than just changing what roll determines effectiveness.

demonslayerelf
2017-09-05, 07:50 PM
Again, the dragon wasn't the point, but that's entirely besides the conversation.

You act like the whole "two chances of failure" thing is bad, uncommon, or something along the lines.
But, and this is a very quick counterpoint, have you even looked at the battle master? You're essentially offering mechanics for a "Maneuver cantrip." Every single battle master maneuver with a similar effect to any of the WAC's have a saving throw, and need to hit. Also, open-palm monks. ALSO SPELLS.

I mean, I totally get just not wanting it. It's just a waste of energy.

JBPuffin
2017-09-05, 11:27 PM
Again, the dragon wasn't the point, but that's entirely besides the conversation.

You act like the whole "two chances of failure" thing is bad, uncommon, or something along the lines.
But, and this is a very quick counterpoint, have you even looked at the battle master? You're essentially offering mechanics for a "Maneuver cantrip." Every single battle master maneuver with a similar effect to any of the WAC's have a saving throw, and need to hit. Also, open-palm monks. ALSO SPELLS.

I mean, I totally get just not wanting it. It's just a waste of energy.

Cantrips, for the most part, only have one point of failure for simplicity's sake; those that have more than one suck more, defeating the point of giving martials some cool goodies by making them worse than just beating things over the head until they're dead. Ergo, why force more than one check onto something like this? Some of these could be saving throws, of course, but they definitely shouldn't be using two separate rolls to determine their effectiveness, especially since that defeats the point of the exercise.
The reason maneuvers (and Open Hand, as one can trigger with each successful Flurry without additional cost) require multiple points of failure is that they're actually auto-damage and a rider, whereas these trade damage for a rider (btw, not adding prof bonus when using these is a good plan, clash).
I'm curious which spells spring to mind for you when talking about spells doing the multiple-failure point thing - I know Ray of Sickness is one, but I don't see many that do (which would weaken your argument via lack of supporting evidence).

So, at least on the outside looking in and speaking for 5e optimizers, two points of failure SUCKS, is used where it is for very obvious reasons whereas here, it'd be rather forced and contrary to the brew's goal. I'd say it's bad and "somewhere along the line", even if it is more common than not, which at this point I don't see enough evidence for.

Lalliman
2017-09-06, 02:04 AM
I dont want to reduce the ones that are a bit strong just yet, and it is related to my second question. In my games weapon attacks deal damage equal to weapon die + ability mod + proficiency bonus. So it ranges from +5 to off the start to a max of +10.
It's a maximum of +11 at high level. Also, have you considered the weird effects this has on class balance? Classes with many attacks get huge damage boosts while ones with fewer are left in the dust. At high level, a fighter gets a total damage bonus of +18 from their proficiency, while a rogue gets only +6 (if they want to make use of Cunning Action).

Anyways, that's getting off-topic.

Demonslayerelf does have a point: a saving throw on top of an attack roll can work just fine if properly tweaked. You might have to increase the power of the rider to make it worth the double failure point, and perhaps make the riders situational enough that you wouldn't want to use them on almost every attack, lest all the extra rolls slow down the game. It's not about which option is good or bad, but about how much you're willing to tweak them to make them work.

I would give more suggestions but I'm in a hurry right now. Will come back to this thread later.

demonslayerelf
2017-09-06, 07:41 AM
Cantrips, for the most part, only have one point of failure for simplicity's sake; those that have more than one suck more, defeating the point of giving martials some cool goodies by making them worse than just beating things over the head until they're dead. Ergo, why force more than one check onto something like this? Some of these could be saving throws, of course, but they definitely shouldn't be using two separate rolls to determine their effectiveness, especially since that defeats the point of the exercise.

True, but then look at the effects of cantrips. *Waits for you to do so.*
Okay, okay, now, Is doing ONE cantrip with(Mostly) awful secondary effects better than giving an enemy disadvantage on ALL attacks for one round, and then trying again if you fail, then trying again if you fail, upto 10 times in one turn(Albeit that's two weapon fighting fighter 20 who's hasted, but still.) Oh, and if that works, then we'll also hamstring them so they won't get away. And if that works, we'll launch them. Sure. Or, just do the extra 6 damage.
With every attack.

Cantrips have smaller effects, and you can only do one cantrip(With minor exception) each round. Why would you save against ONLY not taking a reaction for a turn? Or having your move speed reduced by 10(Or whatever it was)? This is ALL your move speed, on top of already getting in multiple attacks.


The reason maneuvers (and Open Hand, as one can trigger with each successful Flurry without additional cost) require multiple points of failure is that they're actually auto-damage and a rider, whereas these trade damage for a rider (btw, not adding prof bonus when using these is a good plan, clash).
I'm curious which spells spring to mind for you when talking about spells doing the multiple-failure point thing - I know Ray of Sickness is one, but I don't see many that do (which would weaken your argument via lack of supporting evidence).

Actually, not auto-damage. You roll for attacks on them all. It's a bit more auto-damage, 1d12 at best, but that goes with the attack even if they do save against, as an example, being tripped.
I wasn't really thinking much about it when I added that. There are some, not many. Admittedly none that are very good. But I said it up above with cantrips; You only get one spell each round(With minor exception). You get, at 1st level, twice as many attacks, if you use two weapons. And your spellcasters can also use these, before or after casting a spell. Of course, it isn't fair to compare weapon cantrips and actual spells, so let's compare actual spells to actual maneuvers. *Looks back at the maneuver list* Oh, right. They ARE attack and saving throw.


So, at least on the outside looking in and speaking for 5e optimizers, two points of failure SUCKS, is used where it is for very obvious reasons whereas here, it'd be rather forced and contrary to the brew's goal. I'd say it's bad and "somewhere along the line", even if it is more common than not, which at this point I don't see enough evidence for.

Closing statements? How classy. Unfortunately, I don't have any, because I'm a d*ck, and I don't have much time.

clash
2017-09-06, 11:39 AM
It's a maximum of +11 at high level. Also, have you considered the weird effects this has on class balance? Classes with many attacks get huge damage boosts while ones with fewer are left in the dust. At high level, a fighter gets a total damage bonus of +18 from their proficiency, while a rogue gets only +6 (if they want to make use of Cunning Action).

Lets pretend this is balanced across the different classes and likewise pretend that proficiency only goes up to +5 for the purposes of this

And back on topic, I think the closest comparison for these is the "special attacks". Namely grappling and shoving. I want to balance these with those and with normal attack. So somewhere in the middle.

Grappling:
Deals no damage
One point of failure
Restricted to one size larger
Reduces speed to 0
Allows forced movement with no further saves
Requires an action to attempt to break free
Requires 1 hand
Usable multiple times per turn = to number of attacks

Hamstring:
Deals 1d4-2d6 dmg (+ 2-5 if adding prof) ~ 2.5-7(4.5-12)
One point of failure
Should likely restrict to one size larger
Reduces speed to 0
Allows no forced movement
Only lasts one round (Maybe should allow action to try to recover if they want to run away?)
Requires 1-2 hands
Usable multiple times per turn = to number of attacks

Weapon attack:
Deals 1d4-2d6 + 3-5 mod + 2-5 prof ~ 7.5-17
One point of failure
Not restricted
No extra effects
Requires 1-2 hands
Usable multiple times per turn = to number of attacks

This doesn't scream that I should be allowing 2 points of failure. It tells me that I should be tweaking damage, restrictions and recovery to find the right balance. That is what I am attempting to do. I don't want to bog down the game with additional dice rolls. I don't want to make abilities that are so situational they never see any use and martial are back to "spamming sword attack". I want to give them meaningful relevant options that are balanced against the existing options in a way that will actually see common use.

demonslayerelf I very much appreciate your comments but I disagree that inflicting conditions as part of the attack action with a single point of failure is overpowered. The current iteration might be, in which case I appreciate any help I can get in bringing it in line to the right level. Thanks all for the comments so far.

Lalliman
2017-09-06, 03:27 PM
The more I look at it, the more I see that Hamstring is quite strong. An important difference compared to grappling is that you don't have to be or stay adjacent to the target. A rogue, someone with Mobility or someone with a reach weapon could easily use it to completely deny his target the ability to attack.

An alternative nerf might be to have Hamstring merely half the target's speed. A second hamstring on an already-affected target sets their speed to 0. This doesn't seem underpowered if we assume that you lose your ability score modifier but not your proficiency modifier. It still fulfils much the same purpose even if you only hit once: most creatures will have their speed reduced to 15 or 20, meaning they can't escape you nor reach your back-line allies, who are probably about 30 feet away. If you really want to immobilise the target, you can go for a second hamstring. The difficulty of hitting two hamstrings prevents any obvious hit-and-run tactics, at least until high level.

Similarly, Slam might only impose disadvantage on the target's next attack roll (or ability check?), like Vicious Mockery. Subsequent Slam penalties carry over to the next attack the target makes within the same round. (That's gonna be difficult to word in an elegant manner.) This seems fine, balance-wise. It causes the ability to be increasingly less effective against creatures with more attacks, but in this case that seems like the fairest way for it to work. After all, the player too gets more attacks per round, and thus more opportunities to use Slam. Also, most creatures with a lot of attacks are legendary ones that are made to fight an entire party by themselves. They're kind of like an entire group of monsters in one, so it wouldn't be right anyways to disable all of their attacks with a single proc.

That's my two cents for now.

demonslayerelf
2017-09-06, 04:01 PM
This doesn't scream that I should be allowing 2 points of failure. It tells me that I should be tweaking damage, restrictions and recovery to find the right balance. That is what I am attempting to do. I don't want to bog down the game with additional dice rolls. I don't want to make abilities that are so situational they never see any use and martial are back to "spamming sword attack". I want to give them meaningful relevant options that are balanced against the existing options in a way that will actually see common use.

You're making abilities that you can use infinitely, as part of an attack, AND which have pretty decent effects. Five of them. This isn't what I consider situational AT ALL.
I like lalliman's changes, honestly.

See, the reason why I was so adamant about the saving throw business is because you have great effects as they are right now. I like the flavor. I like the effects themselves, because damn if anything in RAW is as cool as Launch. But they're too powerful.

Particularly the ones I've been pointing out, Slam and Hamstring. Rapid Shot and Spin are also a bit much.

I didn't think you could keep those balanced, while keeping the flavour and enjoyment of them.
(Now lemme be clear, I still say Rapid Shot and Spin are dex-saves or damage, but still)
Therefore, Saving Throw. And if they remain as they are, still say they should have saves.

And believe me; I understand more than anyone about making combat more enjoyable. I've been writing something called the Warrior's Handbook for like, a month on the homebrewery, all about that purpose, and this was basically going to be one of the sections.(Still is, but with different stuff.) But players already have the advantage in combat.

Thus, saving throws! The maneuvers these are the "cantrips" of have them, and they represent the enemy struggling against the attacks actively, rather than manikin-mode-ing and you cutting out their Achilles tendon.

And then lalliman came along...
Love those changes. The solutions aren't perfect(A party instead needs 2 hits to totally immobilize... How game-changing.) but they wouldn't merit a saving throw. #Endorsed.



And with that said, I do have an idea for hamstring.
Walking speed is halved if you hamstring their legs once, or completely gone if you hamstring ALL the legs.
Flying speed is halved if you hamstring a wing, or completely gone if you hamstring ALL the wings.
Barring magic.

clash
2017-09-06, 05:47 PM
Nice work lalliman! These are great replies. I am on my phone right now but when I get to my computer I will rework all five maneuvers with suggested changes

Morphic tide
2017-09-06, 08:58 PM
GalacticAxekick mentioned giving up bonus dice for status effects. This makes me remember Ambush Feats, found in Drow of the Underdark and Complete Scoundrel, are a thing again. Those feats trade Sneak Attack dice for various effects. Trading damage dice for effects as a full on branch of the stuff seems like a good way to have serious flexibility. This also makes it so that Rogues can toss out some nasty SoS strikes by tossing out all their SA damage, but Rogues only get one attack to use it on. Fighters can toss out comparable numbers of dice, while splitting it between four targets.

The big thing being that all dice applying to attack damage are affected. Meaning a Paladin can trade Smite dice, Rogues trade Sneak Attack dice, Rangers trade Mark dice and so on. Fighters just have a sheer mass of attacks for dice to trade. Not sure what all sources of attack damage dice Barbarians and Monks have...

Some ideas, labelled by traded dice:

1 die:
Disadvantage to Strength, Intelligence or Charisma saves(each being a separate "thing")
Next attack enemy makes has disadvantage, repeatable(so four dice means the next four attacks)
Add Proficiency to AC against attacks from the target until next round(Narrow enough?)

2 dice:
Disadvantage to Dexterity, Constitution or Wisdom saves(again, separate "things")
Apply remaining damage to enemies in cone(ranged) or burst(melee)(one "thing" for switch hitters)
Halve target's movement speed, second use renders them immobile

3 dice:
Knock enemy prone, use on prone enemy to Stun for a round(Advantage, yo)
Next attack made against enemy is made with Advantage, more uses means more Advantaged attacks(Sneak Attack, HO!)
Move enemy a distance based on Strength, knocking them prone at the end(Again, Advantage, Sneak Attack, cycle of hurt)

---

Many of these should have saves. Some need saves, like forcing the enemy to move, followed by them being knocked prone. Although it does lead to the hilarious option of a Rogue just constantly tossing an enemy a crazy distance, stacking more and more horrible things on them with each hit, and just not letting them get up off the ground so the Rogue keeps getting Sneak Attack dice to toss out for effects that make the target less and less likely to get anything done.

The biggest bit of strangeness this setup would do is make Rogue one of the best AoE classes because they get a die every other level that becomes stupidly easy to trigger. Even if the setup makes it so that you must trade the dice for each target, so that the AoE effect doesn't apply it to the whole area, the Rogue can still get Advantage against attacks from 8 different enemies, or give each of them a disadvantaged "minor" saving throw. Still nasty. Not as bad as a Rogue/Paladin/Sorcerer can get, due to the shenanigans of Smite stacking giving even more dice to blow. And actual magic cantrips that boost melee damage.

Lalliman
2017-09-07, 03:51 AM
The solutions aren't perfect(A party instead needs 2 hits to totally immobilize... How game-changing.) but they wouldn't merit a saving throw. #Endorsed.

And with that said, I do have an idea for hamstring.
Walking speed is halved if you hamstring their legs once, or completely gone if you hamstring ALL the legs.
Flying speed is halved if you hamstring a wing, or completely gone if you hamstring ALL the wings.
Barring magic.

One more possible tweak is to reduce their speed to 5 instead of 0. The result is practically the same, except it prevents polearm shenanigans.

I do endorse splitting the effects of Hamstring between walking speed and flying speed, for the sake of realism if nothing else. For instance:

Hamstring (Melee) - You attack either the target's legs or wings, if they have any. If you attack the legs, the target's walking speed is halved until your next turn. If you attack the wings, the target's flying speed is halved until your next turn. If the target is already Hamstrung, the speed in question is instead set to 0 (5?) for the duration. If the target is Launched, they are also knocked prone.

This still leaves dragons really difficult to pin down (as they should be) and prevents nonsensical things like hamstringing a beholder.

With these changes, a size restriction should be unnecessary for Hamstring and Slam. (I imagine a one-foot-tall man with a hammer could still daze you if he hits you right.) Launch does need a size restriction, of course.

To make Launch more reasonable, you could restrict it to Strength-based attacks only, lest we get rogues launching people into the air with their rapier. That also prevents monks from using it though, which is unfortunate.

@Morphic tide: While these are cool, basing them on damage dice restricts their use to certain classes. Fighters in particular will have very little way to use them, which is unfortunate. This idea is worth exploring as a separate sub-system though, maybe a feat for rogues. I've always thought that rogues should have more control abilities than they get.

clash
2017-09-07, 02:07 PM
Updated all maneuvers based on feedback. Let me know if anything needs further tweaking.

Morphic tide
2017-09-07, 03:51 PM
@Morphic tide: While these are cool, basing them on damage dice restricts their use to certain classes. Fighters in particular will have very little way to use them, which is unfortunate. This idea is worth exploring as a separate sub-system though, maybe a feat for rogues. I've always thought that rogues should have more control abilities than they get.

Actually, the class hurt most by it is Barbarian, who only gets extra dice on crits. Monk at least has Flurry of Blows.

Fighters get piles of attacks, so they actually keep up with Rogues fairly closely in dice spam at 5th, 10th and 20th.

In general, popular two-handlers inherently give two dice of damage, letting you get off two-dice effects. Two weapon setups usually get the same number of dice out, but have it done with more attacks of less dice each.

Although having it be a Rogue subclass is something I'm perfectly fine with. Making Sneak Attack dice act like Superiority Dice alongside trading them for special effects is a nice pile of options for Rogue. A feat for any Rogue to snag one such option would be a Good Thing.

Actually, a subclass for each class, improving their dice generation and giving ways to use it, would be an interesting set. A Paladin subclass that makes them a full slot progression caster and gives them things to trade Smite dice for can make Paladins both nova harder and last longer would handily mitigate the four-encounter adventuring day problem.

A Barbarian subclass that makes crits reliably available (somehow) and gives them the ability to trade damage for control effects makes some serious boosts to options, which is something Barbarians are cripplingly lacking in.

A Ranger subclass that makes them choose always-available bonus dice, like Ye Olden Favored Enemy and Skirmish, and things to trade the dice for, like AC or debuffs, makes the annoying "four encounters per day" balance point much less painfully restrictive.

A Monk subclass that goes for big hits, rather than numerous hits, and gets to trade big-hit-dice for more varied control than they normally get allows numerous character concepts ("I throw the Dragon") to be covered by one, instead of several, subclasses.

A Fighter subclass that can merge attacks together, sacrificing flat bonuses on damage for only needing to hit once, then trade the merged attack's dice for varied effects allows for Fighters to swing sword five times per round(why not slot an extra attack at level 15?), or swap dice around for piles of riders. Or make the attack AoE to perform Spin to Win.

demonslayerelf
2017-09-08, 09:22 AM
Updated all maneuvers based on feedback. Let me know if anything needs further tweaking.

I still think that Rapid Shot should basically follow the same mechanics as Spin, only you choose a spot.
As is, it's still basically just doubling your number of attacks.

Beyond that, two things.
You don't specify a DC for the dex saving throw(We can all assume 8+prof.+Str/Dex, but it might be static, i dunno).

Other idea for rapid shot, take your entire action to make an attack against all enemies in a 5 foot radius. (Or dex saves. Again, I dunno.)

clash
2017-09-08, 10:03 AM
Rapid shot is two attacks but it is with reduced damage and the fairly restrictive range restriction and has to be against two separate opponents. You are trading the ability to make one strong attack against a single enemy for two weaker attacks against separate enemies that both must be close to you. I thought the tradeoff would be sufficient.

The problem I am running into with making it similiar to spin it that if it is using the same mechanic it becomes strictly superior. It's the volley > whirlwind problem all over again. In general spin isnt going to target more than 3 enemies, so I really want to restrict this to 2 as it has the range and targeting advantage.

My other idea if it seems more balanced is the following:

Multishot: You fire two projectiles in a single shot. Make a ranged attack with a piercing weapon against 2 separate targets that are adjacent to each other. Use the same attack and damage roll for each.

demonslayerelf
2017-09-08, 12:46 PM
The problem is you're still making 2 attacks for the price of one. You do slightly less damage, and the caveat that it can't be the same target, but you're still making two for one attack.
That means your Fighter 20 will be making 8 attacks in a round, your Arcane Archers will be destroying things in that way, you have double the chance to crit(Thereby dealing even MORE damage to the enemies than normal shots), and if you ever find a "Flametongue" style magic bow, or a Greatbow, the 5 difference won't even be noticed.

clash
2017-09-08, 12:56 PM
I dont understand how this is different than hitting two enemies with a dex save. Most high level enemies have a greater chance of failing the dex save then of being hit. This is true of the Lich, Solar, Pit Fiend, and Ancient Black Dragon to name a few.

demonslayerelf
2017-09-08, 05:52 PM
How about the fact that you could have upto 10 arrows against 2 targets each with one, and a 1-1 correspondence with the other? To match that, you would have to have 20 enemies in a 5-foot radius.
In other terms, shoot the dragon 10 times, then just make 10 attacks against the rest of the dragon cult at the same time, or maybe get a few cultists with the dragon and basically shoot, at most, 4 things, which then dex save for it, rather than make 20 separate attack rolls.