Help with Cleric/Necromancer Build

[Wolfem]

Let me start off by saying I have only been playing D&D for a little over a year and have only been playing 3.5 so far. I greatly enjoy the info and ideas that are posted on these forums and they have helped me to better myself as a player. That being said I wanted to seek some advise on a character I have been trying to play in a new campaign with little success.

Basic Campaign Info
Version: D&D 3.5 (Most official 3.5 sources are allowed, but I will have to check with my DM as he doesn't like to much cheese).

Setting: Forgotten Realms, Evil Campaign, Joining as new members of the Zhentarim.

Variants: DM requires Fractional BAB/Saves be used if multiclassing. Flaws are allowed.

Players: Currently only 2, however the DM has provided "Helpers" that are NPC's we can pick from to come with us and that we control.

Style: Each session has a mission that is given to us by the Zhentarim. We are located in a small merchant town and are trying to replace the current ruling powers to take the town as our own. Each mission has certain provisions provided (example: gold to buy traps, potions, other equipment, etc.) and we can pick to bring along 1 or more of the NPC's the DM has create. Each NPC has their own skills, strength, weaknesses. Beyond that the DM gives us the freedom to determine how we want to approach the mission to complete it.

Character Build
The other PC in this campaign is playing a Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger) with 4HD, so he doesn't get his first class level until level 5 (which we just hit at the end of our last session). That PC took Rogue as their first class level. The NPC characters are a Bard, a Ranger/Rogue, and a Fighter/Sorcerer.

I started this campaign wanting to play as a Necromancer of sort. I wanted to be able to help with some off-healing if needed for the rest of the party but was focusing on negative energy and undead minions. So far we have had 3 sessions and this character has died twice already. The issue is, I had formed a backstory for this character involving the death of a loved one, his attempt to receive help from the local church and being turned down to bring her back, and his downward spiral to find the means to do it himself.

At the start of the campaign we had established I already had a skeleton that was following me around at a distance that I had no direct control over. This was my dead loved one, who became this after my failed attempt to resurrect her myself (think Full Metal Alchemist). Through studying the character gets into Necromancy in hopes on controlling the skeleton and at a later time resurrect his loved one. Given all that I have listed the build design that I was trying to use for this and seek advise since I clearly am not thinking this through very well; having had the character die twice already.

Note: When the character died the first session our DM advised I could roll a new character or make a copy of the original with simple changes and a new name. I choose to stick with the current build but he has died again in the 3rd session and I have been given the choose again. I really want to keep the basic backstory and goal of the character but still want to be useful to the party for off-healing if needed.


Rex Ossium
NE Human Cleric 2/Wizard 1/Cleric +1/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 14
Build/Ability Scores


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cleric 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Concentration (4), Intimidate (4cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (4), Knowledge (Religion) (4), Knowledge (The Planes) (4), Spellcraft (4)
Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Rebuke Undead, Domains (Death, Evil), Flaw (Feeble)


2nd
Cleric 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Concentration (5), Intimidate (5cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (5), Knowledge (Religion) (5), Knowledge (The Planes) (5), Spellcraft (5)
-
-


3rd
Wizard 1
+2
+3
+1
+3
Concentration (6), Intimidate (6cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (6), Knowledge (Religion) (6), Knowledge (The Planes) (6), Spellcraft (6)
Precocious Apprentice (Kelgore's Grave Mist)
Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll


4th
Cleric 3
+2
+3
+1
+4
Concentration (7), Intimidate (7cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (7), Knowledge (Religion) (7), Knowledge (The Planes) (5), Spellcraft (7)
-
-


5th
Mystic Theurge 1
+3
+4
+1
+4
Concentration (8), Intimidate (8cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (8), Knowledge (Religion) (8), Sense Motive (1), Spellcraft (8)
-
+1 level of existing Arcane & Divine spellcasting


6th
Mystic Theurge 1
+3
+4
+2
+5
Concentration (9), Intimidate (9cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (9), Knowledge (Religion) (9), Sense Motive (2), Spellcraft (9)
Persist Spell
+1 level of existing Arcane & Divine spellcasting


7th
True Necromancer 1
+4
+4
+2
+5
Concentration (10), Intimidate (10cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (10), Knowledge (Religion) (10), Sense Motive (2(1cc)), Spellcraft (10)
-
Rebuke Undead (stacks with Cleric)


8th
True Necromancer 2
+4
+5
+2
+6
Concentration (11), Intimidate (11cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (11), Knowledge (Religion) (11), Sense Motive (2(2cc)), Spellcraft (11)
-
Create Undead 1/day


9th
True Necromancer 3
+5
+5
+3
+6
Concentration (12), Intimidate (12cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (12), Knowledge (Religion) (12), Sense Motive (2(3cc)), Spellcraft (12)
DMM (Persist Spell)
Necromantic Prowess (+1)


10th
True Necromancer 4
+5
+5
+3
+7
Concentration (13), Intimidate (13cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (13), Knowledge (Religion) (13), Sense Motive (2(4cc)), Spellcraft (13)
-
Zone of Desecration


11th
True Necromancer 5
+6/+1
+6
+3
+7
Concentration (14), Intimidate (14cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (14), Knowledge (Religion) (14), Sense Motive (2(5cc)), Spellcraft (14)
-
Create Undead 2/day


12th
True Necromancer 6
+6/+1
+6
+4
+8
Concentration (15), Intimidate (15cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (15), Knowledge (Religion) (15), Sense Motive (2(7cc)), Spellcraft (15)
Corpsecrafter
Necromantic Prowess (+2)


13th
True Necromancer 7
+7/+2
+6
+4
+8
Concentration (16), Intimidate (16cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (16), Knowledge (Religion) (16), Sense Motive (2(9cc)), Spellcraft (16)
-
Major Desecration


14th
True Necromancer 8
+7/+2
+7
+4
+9
Concentration (17), Intimidate (17cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (17), Knowledge (Religion) (17), Sense Motive (2(11cc)), Spellcraft (17)
-
Create Greater Undead 1/day


15th
True Necromancer 9
+8/+3
+7
+5
+9
Concentration (18), Intimidate (18cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (18), Knowledge (Religion) (18), Sense Motive (2(13cc)), Spellcraft (18)
Destruction Retribution
Necromantic Prowess (+3)


16th
True Necromancer 10
+8/+3
+7
+5
+10
Concentration (19), Intimidate (19cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (19), Knowledge (Religion) (19), Sense Motive (2(15cc)), Spellcraft (19)
-
Horrid Wilting


17th
True Necromancer 11
+9/+4
+8
+5
+10
Concentration (20), Intimidate (20cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (20), Knowledge (Religion) (20), Sense Motive (2(17cc)), Spellcraft (20)
-
Create Greater Undead 2/day


18th
True Necromancer 12
+9/+4
+8
+6
+11
Concentration (21), Intimidate (21cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (21), Knowledge (Religion) (21), Sense Motive (2(19cc)), Spellcraft (21)
Craft Wondrous Item
Necromantic Prowess (+4)


19th
True Necromancer 13
+10/+5
+8
+6
+11
Concentration (22), Intimidate (22cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (22), Knowledge (Religion) (22), Sense Motive (2(21cc)), Spellcraft (22)
-
Energy Drain


20th
True Necromancer 14
+10/+5
+9
+6
+12
Concentration (23), Intimidate (23cc), Knowledge (Arcana) (23), Knowledge (Religion) (23), Sense Motive (2(23cc)), Spellcraft (23)
-
Wail of the Banshee





Ability
Base
Levels
Total
Modifier


STR
12

12
+1


DEX
10

10
+0


CON
14

14
+2


INT
16
+2
18
+4


WIS
16
+3
19
+4


CHA
12

12
+1



This character will now be starting at level 5 since we just reached that level at the end of our last session.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Grod_The_Giant]

I HIGHLY suggest you stick to either arcane or divine casting, rather than trying to mix the two. True Necromancer in particular is a trap; it doesn't offer great features and it doesn't progress either side at full speed. Cleric is usually the better choice, since their Rebuke pool gives a second pool of undead to control. Though if you prefer arcane, Dread Necromancer can pull the same trick.

Edit: So, given all that, I suggest Cleric (maybe Cloistered Cleric, if you want more of an academic feel) 6/Bone Knight 10, for a sturdy necromancy build. Bone Knight gives you a bunch of good stuff-- snazzy bone armor and weapons, a second pool of undead to control, a skeletal mount you can summon, turn resistance for your minions, free Animate Dead, stuff like that.

[Gelcur]

I didn't check the whole build for accuracy but I did notice Mystic Theurge at L5 requires 2nd level arcane as well as divine spells so you may want to look into that.

I would suggest as far as survivability goes trying to stick to the flavor and build, it sounds fun. I would swap out your familiar, you already have a sidekick of sorts, and take abjurpt jaunt, you'll have to specialize as a conjurer, that should help get you out of trouble a few more times.

Also ditch scribe scroll for Improved Initiative, assuming you have no need for it. That will let you go first more often effectively giving enemies one less round to beat on you.

If you give us a brief summary of how these deaths went down it might be helpful.

[Wolfem]

I didn't check the whole build for accuracy but I did notice Mystic Theurge at L5 requires 2nd level arcane as well as divine spells so you may want to look into that.

I would suggest as far as survivability goes trying to stick to the flavor and build, it sounds fun. I would swap out your familiar, you already have a sidekick of sorts, and take abjurpt jaunt, you'll have to specialize as a conjurer, that should help get you out of trouble a few more times.

Also ditch scribe scroll for Improved Initiative, assuming you have no need for it. That will let you go first more often effectively giving enemies one less round to beat on you.

If you give us a brief summary of how these deaths went down it might be helpful.

Sorry about that, I just realized that was the build I had setup back when this characters name was Byron and he died the first session.

I adjusted the build table to show what Rex was following before he too died last session (minus Tomb Tainted Soul, which he has at level 1).

As for the familiar, sadly that skeleton was destroyed during the second session. Originally the DM was going to allow me to turn it into my familiar when I reached level 3 (which was at the end of session 2) but it didn't make it. I was thinking of scrapping the skeleton thing, or possible bring it back once I could Create Undead since I still have the bones. If I scrapped it I was thinking of dropping the Familiar as you mentioned. Do you have anymore detail on this Abjurant Jaunt swap?

I was going to keep Scribe Scroll so I could stock pile healing scrolls for the party since, as an evil cleric, I cannot convert cleric spells to Cure Wound spells. This would allow me to use my Cleric spells for more buffing/protection and my wizard spells for more utility/damage.

I removed the Tomb Tainted Soul for the 3rd iteration of this character and in the table as well since I think it is what really killed this character. Both deaths had me go into the negatives, not be able to roll a 15+ to literally save my life, and have no way for a party member to stabilize/heal me before hitting -10 (since I couldn't drink healing potions as they would just hurt me more).

[Gelcur]

If I scrapped it I was thinking of dropping the Familiar as you mentioned. Do you have anymore detail on this Abjurant Jaunt swap?
Abrupt Jaunt let's you teleport 10' as an immediate action a number of times per day equal to your Int mod. You can find more info if you search "abrupt jaunt 3.5" in a search engine. The basic idea is if someone attacks you teleport away, it is effective vs meleers, many consider it very cheesy, rules on if you can wait to use it till after the attack roll but before damage are hotly debated, personally I think RAW allows it.


I was going to keep Scribe Scroll so I could stock pile healing scrolls for the party since, as an evil cleric, I cannot convert cleric spells to Cure Wound spells. This would allow me to use my Cleric spells for more buffing/protection and my wizard spells for more utility/damage.
Scrolls are not an effective way of healing, best bet is buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds and have the ranger use it, it is on his spell list. Scrolls are useful for that spell you know but is only useful rarely and other times just wastes prepped slots, Knock, etc.


Both deaths had me go into the negatives, not be able to roll a 15+ to literally save my life, and have no way for a party member to stabilize/heal me before hitting -10 (since I couldn't drink healing potions as they would just hurt me more).
So were you hit because a meleer charged you? What sort of armor are you wearing? We're these encounters close to your CR?

[Wolfem]

Thanks for the suggestions! I have decided to focus on a divine caster instead. I realized I was getting to a point were, while I would have a lot of options spell wise, I was going to have a hard time keeping track of spells from both Divine and Arcane. I am currently designing the new character to work using the current build. Any thoughts on this setup would be appreciated.

Build Tables

Tertio Conatus
NE Human Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 2/Master of Shrouds 10/Thaumaturgist +1



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cleric 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Concentration [4], Diplomacy [4], Knowledge (Arcana) [4], Knowledge (Religion) [4], Spellcraft [4]
Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Domain Spontaneity (Death)
Turn/Rebuke Undead, Domains (Death, Evil), Flaw (Inattentive)


2nd
Cleric 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Concentration [5], Diplomacy [5], Knowledge (Arcana) [5], Knowledge (Religion) [5], Spellcraft [5]
-
-


3rd
Cleric 3
+2
+3
+1
+3
Concentration [6], Diplomacy [6], Knowledge (Arcana) [6], Knowledge (Religion) [6], Spellcraft [6]
Persist Spell
-


4th
Cleric 4
+3
+4
+1
+4
Concentration [7], Diplomacy [7], Knowledge (Arcana) [7], Knowledge (Religion) [7], Spellcraft [7]
-
-


5th
Cleric 5
+3
+4
+1
+4
Concentration [8], Diplomacy [8], Knowledge (Arcana) [8], Knowledge (Religion) [8], Spellcraft [8]
-
-


6th
Cleric 6
+4
+5
+2
+5
Concentration [9], Diplomacy [9], Knowledge (Arcana) [9], Knowledge (Religion) [9], Spellcraft [9]
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
-


7th
Cleric 7
+5
+5
+2
+5
Concentration [10], Diplomacy [10], Knowledge (Arcana) [10], Knowledge (Religion) [10], Spellcraft [10]
-
-


8th
Thaumaturgist 1
+5
+5
+2
+6
Concentration [11], Diplomacy [11], Autohypnosis [2cc], Spellcraft [11]
-
Improved Ally, +1 level of existing spellcasting class


9th
Thaumaturgist 2
+6/+1
+6
+3
+6
Concentration [12], Diplomacy [12], Autohypnosis [4cc], Spellcraft [12]
DMM (Persist Spell), Augment Summoning (B)
Augment Summoning, +1 level of existing spellcasting class


10th
Master of Shrouds 1
+7/+2
+6
+3
+7
Concentration [13], Diplomacy [13], Knowledge (Arcana) [11], Knowledge (Religion) [11], Spellcraft [13]
-
Extra Rebuking, Rebuke Undead (stack with Cleric)


11th
Master of Shrouds 2
+7/+2
+6
+3
+7
Concentration [14], Diplomacy [14], Knowledge (Arcana) [12], Knowledge (Religion) [12], Spellcraft [14]
-
Summon Undead (Shadow), +1 divine spellcasting level


12th
Master of Shrouds 3
+8/+3
+7
+4
+8
Concentration [15], Diplomacy [15], Knowledge (Arcana) [13], Knowledge (Religion) [13], Spellcraft [15]
Rapid Metamagic
+1 divine spellcasting level


13th
Master of Shrouds 4
+9/+4
+7
+4
+8
Concentration [16], Diplomacy [16], Knowledge (Arcana) [14], Knowledge (Religion) [14], Spellcraft [16]
-
Summon Undead (Wraith), +1 divine spellcasting level


14th
Master of Shrouds 5
+10/+5
+7
+4
+9
Concentration [17], Diplomacy [17], Knowledge (Arcana) [15], Knowledge (Religion) [15], Spellcraft [17]
-
Improved Summoning, +1 divine spellcasting level


15th
Master of Shrouds 6
+10/+5
+8
+5
+9
Concentration [18], Diplomacy [18], Knowledge (Arcana) [16], Knowledge (Religion) [16], Spellcraft [18]
DMM (Quicken Spell)
Summon Undead (Spectre), +1 divine spellcasting level


16th
Master of Shrouds 7
+11/+6/+1
+8
+5
+10
Concentration [19], Diplomacy [19], Knowledge (Arcana) [17], Knowledge (Religion) [17], Spellcraft [19]
-
+1 divine spellcasting level


17th
Master of Shrouds 8
+12/+7/+2
+8
+5
+10
Concentration [20], Diplomacy [20], Knowledge (Arcana) [18], Knowledge (Religion) [18], Spellcraft [20]
-
Summon Undead (Greater Shadow), +1 divine spellcasting level


18th
Master of Shrouds 9
+13/+8/+3
+9
+6
+11
Concentration [21], Diplomacy [21], Knowledge (Arcana) [19], Knowledge (Religion) [19], Spellcraft [21]
Extra Rebuking
+1 divine spellcasting level


19th
Master of Shrouds 10
+13/+8/+3
+9
+6
+11
Concentration [22], Diplomacy [22], Knowledge (Arcana) [20], Knowledge (Religion) [20], Spellcraft [22]
-
Summon Undead (Dread Wraith), +1 divine spellcasting level


20th
Thaumaturgist 3
+14/+9/+4
+9
+6
+12
Concentration [23], Diplomacy [23], Autohypnosis [6cc], Spellcraft [23]
-
Extended Summoning, +1 divine spellcasting level





Ability
Base
Levels
Total
Modifier


STR
12

12
+1


DEX
12

12
+1


CON
14

14
+2


INT
14

14
+2


WIS
16
+3
19
+4


CHA
14
+2
16
+3



Build Details

Only lose 1 CL of Cleric (DM advised I could use the "Book of Bad Latin" version of Master of Shroud which has 9/10 progression).
Will be able to convert spell slots into Death Domain spells spontaneously.
At lvl 9, will be able to easily persist Cleric buffs each day.
At lvl 15, will be able to Quicken Spontaneous cast Death Domain Spells as well as Inflict Wound spells.


Sources
PHB: Cleric, Augment Summoning
DMG 3.5: Thaumaturgist
Libris Mortis: Master of Shrouds
Complete Divine: Domain Spontaneity, Divine Metamagic
Complete Mage: Rapid Metamagic

Bonus points if you figure out what the character name means. :smallcool:

[nintendoh]

The third undertaking. Please deposit my bonus points in my points pal account.

[Wolfem]

The third undertaking. Please deposit my bonus points in my points pal account.

Lol, I was hoping it would take longer for someone to figure that out. Excellent job nintendoh.

[Wolfem]

No suggestions or sage wisdom on the new character build? :frown:

[ATHATH]

I HIGHLY suggest you stick to either arcane or divine casting, rather than trying to mix the two. True Necromancer in particular is a trap; it doesn't offer great features and it doesn't progress either side at full speed. Cleric is usually the better choice, since their Rebuke pool gives a second pool of undead to control. Though if you prefer arcane, Dread Necromancer can pull the same trick.

Edit: So, given all that, I suggest Cleric (maybe Cloistered Cleric, if you want more of an academic feel) 6/Bone Knight 10, for a sturdy necromancy build. Bone Knight gives you a bunch of good stuff-- snazzy bone armor and weapons, a second pool of undead to control, a skeletal mount you can summon, turn resistance for your minions, free Animate Dead, stuff like that.
Isn't turn resistance really bad for a necromancer to give their minions, since it makes them harder for the necromancer to rebuke/control?

[Wolfem]

Isn't turn resistance really bad for a necromancer to give their minions, since it makes them harder for the necromancer to rebuke/control?

The Bone Knight feature that is being referred to here is Master of the White Banner which says:


Master of the White Banner (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you grant any undead under your control turn resistance equal to your Charisma bonus (if any) as long as they are within 60 feet of you.

So if the undead aren't under your control they do not receive the turn resistance. At least, that would be my understanding of the ability.

Anyone have any comments or suggestions for the second build I posted which I will be using in my next evil campaign session?

[Belzyk]

Just go straight cleric or the cleric bone knight. Best necromancer in the game lol