Meta-magics... Best to worst?

[samcifer]

Okay, so what meta-magics are best to go for at lv. 3? What about later on?

In my case, I'm focusing on fire and radiant magics as a favored soul sorc with some healing and defensive spells. What about other builds though? Looking for advice on this.

[Specter]

You definitely want either Quickened or Twinned to help you break the action economy. Other than that, Subtle is always nice to mask casting and avoid being counterspelled.

[mephnick]

Well.."Best Metamagics" and "Best Metamagics at level 3" are different things. Most people will put Heighten and Quicken up there, but you'll basically choke yourself to death on SP if you take them both at level 3.

For level 3 I'd take Subtle and and Twin. Maybe Empower if you really like re-rolling damage dice and want to blast.

[Beechgnome]

If I were to rank, it would be:

Quickened
Twinned
Subtle
Distant (I am totally willing to go to bat for this)
Heightened (Expensive at lvl 3)
Careful
Empowered
Extended

But a good way to figure it out is think about how you want to play and how metamagic can help.

Careful, for example, isn't great for damage spells like thunderwave or fireball (better to be evoker) but shines for non-damage control effects like Gust of Wind or Stinking Cloud.

Quickened is universal, but especially good with spells that use actions to maintain effects, like Telekinesis, since it allows you to cast Other spells as bonus actions.

Distant is best with touch spells, letting a favoured soul, for example, heal at a distance, but also for counterspelling and those few spells where range and area of effect are one in the same (sword burst cantrip and seeming may actually be only ones).

Subtle is great for espionage or for spells with no material component like Misty Step or Catapult, allowing you to plausibly deny having cast anything.

And while some spells like hold person and charm person allow additional targets when up cast, others like spider climb, Phantasmal Force, Enlarge/reduce and of course Haste, don't. And that's where Twin shines.

I think empower is underwhelming and extended super-niche, but that could just be me.

[Spiritchaser]

For top three I'd go quickened, subtle and twinned.

I'd vote quickened over twinned, and actually I'd put subtle there too... Though I appreciate that with different experiences I might change that order.


That being said... It really comes down to what spells you take and what works with them.

[Chugger]

Heightened is expensive at 3, but your first two picks have to last you til lvl 10.

Much depends on what you want to do with your magic. Are you in a melee heavy party and planning on using Hold Person as a "death spell"? (a held person is vulnerable to advantaged attacks and every blow is a critical hit - so basically if you coordinate it right with your meleers (not something every party can pull off, by the way!) it's a sort of "death spell"). In that case 3 SPs on a "boss" type humanoid might be well worth it, to give them a disadvantaged save on the hold spell.

If you're not planning that, if you're mostly going to scorching ray and fireball and firebolt between lvl 3 and 10, don't go heightened at 3.

You may not be using meta magic much, anyway. If rests are hard to get and fights are tough, you might be converting SPs to slots. If wild, at lvl 6 I think, you may be changing luck with SPs.

Make sure you understand the difference between Quickened and Twinned. I'm not sure I have it straight in my head.

[Chugger]

Since we're asking sorc questions, I have (what is probably a dumb) one.

Suppose I'm a Sorcadin. I'm not sure if tactically it would make sense (but I'm seeing it might) - but - could I spend a SP on (I think) quicken and then use my bonus turn to cast Blade Ward (if I got lots of creatures coming at me) or maybe true strike ... and then use my action for an Attack action? And then make one or two sword strikes, depending on my Pal level?

It's casting a spell of any sort on my main action that stops me from using the Attack action, right?

Bonus action casting still allows use of Attack action, right? Or am I not getting this?

[Specter]

Since we're asking sorc questions, I have (what is probably a dumb) one.

Suppose I'm a Sorcadin. I'm not sure if tactically it would make sense (but I'm seeing it might) - but - could I spend a SP on (I think) quicken and then use my bonus turn to cast Blade Ward (if I got lots of creatures coming at me) or maybe true strike ... and then use my action for an Attack action? And then make one or two sword strikes, depending on my Pal level?

It's casting a spell of any sort on my main action that stops me from using the Attack action, right?

Bonus action casting still allows use of Attack action, right? Or am I not getting this?

Blade Ward yes, but True Strike only applies next turn. So forget it.

Casting a spell doesn't stop you from attacking, as long as you still have an action left to attack.

[Easy_Lee]

For what purpose? For what build? Pure Sorcerers function best when built for a particular role. You can build a sorcerer for support, in which case Twin is much stronger than Quicken, and I'd argue you'd also get more mileage out of Subtle as well. But if you're building a blaster, Quicken and Empowered are your best friends.

Also, are we considering multiclassing? A pure Sorcerer has less need for Quicken than a Sorcadin or Sorlock, both of whom have powerful uses for their action besides casting spells.

[Crusher]

Since we're asking sorc questions, I have (what is probably a dumb) one.

Suppose I'm a Sorcadin. I'm not sure if tactically it would make sense (but I'm seeing it might) - but - could I spend a SP on (I think) quicken and then use my bonus turn to cast Blade Ward (if I got lots of creatures coming at me) or maybe true strike ... and then use my action for an Attack action? And then make one or two sword strikes, depending on my Pal level?

It's casting a spell of any sort on my main action that stops me from using the Attack action, right?

Bonus action casting still allows use of Attack action, right? Or am I not getting this?

Yes, absolutely. Its just about the only way to make those two into good spells, imo. Does True Strike only work on your first attack after casting? I don't have my book handy and don't recall how its worded.

[Chugger]

Yes, absolutely. Its just about the only way to make those two into good spells, imo. Does True Strike only work on your first attack after casting? I don't have my book handy and don't recall how its worded.

Thanks. Okay I gotta try a Sorcadin sometime soon.

Yeah it says on your next turn you gain advantage on your first attack. Even so it's not a bad use of a bonus action. Although in some cases Firebolting and then slashing twice might be better (would be good if fighting a troll!). Of course with SCAG cantrips you can (possibly) try many other things. Not sure if Sorc gets lightning lure. Lots of options it seems.

[Chugger]

For what purpose? For what build? Pure Sorcerers function best when built for a particular role. You can build a sorcerer for support, in which case Twin is much stronger than Quicken, and I'd argue you'd also get more mileage out of Subtle as well. But if you're building a blaster, Quicken and Empowered are your best friends.

Also, are we considering multiclassing? A pure Sorcerer has less need for Quicken than a Sorcadin or Sorlock, both of whom have powerful uses for their action besides casting spells.

Hey Easy_Lee, if you got a moment, would you mind explaining or give scenarios that explain why what you said makes sense? (I'm not doubting you - just wanna know what actions or combo of actions you have in mind and why they rock)

I think that would help us up-n-comers a lot - so we see precisely the tactics or mechanics or choices involved - so we have a more concrete picture in our minds to help us pick the paths we wanna take as we level.

Hoping you can spell it out - thanks much.

[Easy_Lee]

Hey Easy_Lee, if you got a moment, would you mind explaining or give scenarios that explain why what you said makes sense? (I'm not doubting you - just wanna know what actions or combo of actions you have in mind and why they rock)

I think that would help us up-n-comers a lot - so we see precisely the tactics or mechanics or choices involved - so we have a more concrete picture in our minds to help us pick the paths we wanna take as we level.

Hoping you can spell it out - thanks much.

Sure.

Subtle and Twin are very good on a support Sorcerer. Twinned haste is a great staple. Subtle in general has many supportive uses. Subtle invisibility won't draw attention. Subtle-anything can be used for stealth missions without giving away your position.

Then there's blasting. Sometimes you roll low, and just want to do a bit more damage. Enter Empowered, which lets you reroll up to five dice for just one sorcery point. Use it on Shatter and you're rerolling low D8s, potentially adding a significant chunk of damage. A Red Draconic Sorcerer or Sorlock also has decent or good cantrip damage, meaning that both Empowered and Quicken become relevant.

For Quicken, since you can't cast another leveled spell on the same turn as you use Quicken, you need something to do with your action that isn't a spell. Dodge? Disengage? Dash? Why did you enter melee? You're a Sorcerer. But if you're a Sorcadin, Quicken is gold because you can Attack Twice, smite on both, and Quicken a blast all in the same round for huge burst. Or you can Quicken Hold Person and give your own attacks advantage that round...then smite on them.

Basically, you need to plan out what you're going to do with your Metamagic. Spell selection is the same for Sorcerers. That's why they work best when built for a particular role. Wizards are generalists, Sorcerers only work when built as specialists.

[Chugger]

Sure.

Subtle and Twin are very good on a support Sorcerer. Twinned haste is a great staple. Subtle in general has many supportive uses. Subtle invisibility won't draw attention. Subtle-anything can be used for stealth missions without giving away your position.

Then there's blasting. Sometimes you roll low, and just want to do a bit more damage. Enter Empowered, which lets you reroll up to five dice for just one sorcery point. Use it on Shatter and you're rerolling low D8s, potentially adding a significant chunk of damage. A Red Draconic Sorcerer or Sorlock also has decent or good cantrip damage, meaning that both Empowered and Quicken become relevant.

For Quicken, since you can't cast another leveled spell on the same turn as you use Quicken, you need something to do with your action that isn't a spell. Dodge? Disengage? Dash? Why did you enter melee? You're a Sorcerer. But if you're a Sorcadin, Quicken is gold because you can Attack Twice, smite on both, and Quicken a blast all in the same round for huge burst. Or you can Quicken Hold Person and give your own attacks advantage that round...then smite on them.

Basically, you need to plan out what you're going to do with your Metamagic. Spell selection is the same for Sorcerers. That's why they work best when built for a particular role. Wizards are generalists, Sorcerers only work when built as specialists.

Perfect. Thanks much! I'm gonna Copy that and print it out. Not joking.

[Corran]

I would probably go with twinned (and thus focus a bit on getting spells that buff; clerics do get some nice free-concentration buffs, apart from what you can already get from the sorcerer's spell list, ie haste/ polymorph/ etc) and subtle (and get silence as a spell).

[Chugger]

I would probably go with twinned (and thus focus a bit on getting spells that buff; clerics do get some nice free-concentration buffs, apart from what you can already get from the sorcerer's spell list, ie haste/ polymorph/ etc) and subtle (and get silence as a spell).

That's good, too. Reminds me, last week a druid cast spike growth centered on a caster boss and his minions while a cleric put silence on that area, too. The caster boss got off not one spell as he shredded himself slowly getting to a weird symbol - which he used to TP away from us (he was designed to mess us up with spells and then escape - the DM was worried he wouldn't make it out!). It was devastating. Sorry, this isn't really on topic for here - but silence is wicked in the right situation, and a sorc being able to cast in it would be very good. Would you multi to get silence? Or trust a friend to cast it?

[TheUser]

Read my guide in my sig for a total breakdown

[Corran]

Would you multi to get silence? Or trust a friend to cast it?
I think it's on the cleric's spell list, so a favored soul sorcerer (who is allowed to pick spells from the cleric's list) would be able to get it.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, so what meta-magics are best to go for at lv. 3? What about later on?

In my case, I'm focusing on fire and radiant magics as a favored soul sorc with some healing and defensive spells. What about other builds though? Looking for advice on this.

I'm not sure it makes sense to talk about the strength of metamagics in isolation. E.g. Extended doesn't work with most spells, and for a pure sorcerer about its best use is to Extend Animate Objects so you don't have to worry about it running out in the middle of a fight (especially if your objects need to spend some time flying/sneaking toward your target before the actual fight breaks out). But on the other Hand, Extended is a vital part of turning Aura of Vitality into hands-down the best healing spell in the game. It's super-niche, but also super-strong in that niche. Does that make it strong or weak? I dunno, and it's probably not important: all that matters is that you know how to use it.

Likewise, Distant has some key uses for things like Counterspell and even plain old Fireball. But you can also use movement (e.g. on a horse or a Phantom Steed) to fill many of the same scenarios that Distant is used for. Does that make Distant strong or weak? Dunno, and probably doesn't matter.

In a general sense I'd say that you will usually want Quicken for its sheer versatility (e.g. drop a Quickened Darkness spell and then use your action to Hide or to Dash away; a gish can drop a Quickened Blur and then attack and/or use a melee cantrip). The main reason you wouldn't want Quicken is if you're too tight on sorcery points for it to ever be useful to you--if you're going to hard stop at Sorc 3, Quicken is less attractive. If you are planning to use Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern, or Web a lot, and your DM goes light on the ranged monsters (just like the MM does), then Careful becomes very attractive. Twin is attractive if you're thinking about Twinning Polymorph, Haste, or (eventually) Foresight. Empower is pretty bad in mathematical terms but fun for people who think in very concrete terms and hate rolling low on damage.

The sorcerer only gets about fifteen spells, so it shouldn't be that hard to examine your chosen spells individually to see which ones match which metamagics. That exercise will benefit you more than some generic "strong/weak" rating on metamagics in isolation.

[JellyPooga]

Outside of a couple of niche melee builds, I don't really see Quicken as a "top tier" metamagic. As has been mentioned, since you aren't casting a non-cantrip spell with your action, what are you doing with it that's so damned good?

Twin Spell has obvious utility and ranks pretty high for me.

Distant Spell is a great metamagic when you play outside the blasting field; many buffs and debuffs have woefully short range and slapping on that doubled range lets you operate from a comfortable field with a d6 HD. Not to mention Counterspell.

Heightened Spell should not be underestimated. Hitting someone with Disadvantage on their Save at any level, given that at any given level a critter has about a 50% or worse chance of making a Save, is absolute gold. It practically ensures your spell will stick.

Subtle Spell gets a lot of good press and I can see why. It is, however, very GM dependent. Some GMs will let you make a heap of difference with it. Under others it can be all bit ignored. Definitely one to be chosen carefully based on the game style of who you're playing with.

If you're a blasty Sorcerer, Careful Spell can be golden. Especially if you're level 7 or higher and there aren't any Rogues in the party to draw aggro and be the locus for your AoE. If you're not a blasty Sorcerer? Pass.

Extend Spell...is an odd one. I want to like it, but doubling the duration of most spells is often very redundant. Most buffs and debuffs last more than long enough to get the job done and doubling that time is simply a waste of resources. There are some fringe cases, but none I'd consider worth the investment in the long run.

Empower is the only "blaster only" metamagic and it does a damned good job at it. If you want to be a blaster Sorcerer, you want this. In the long run, Empowering your direct damage spells will give you a significant increase to your average damage.

[MaxWilson]

If you're a blasty Sorcerer, Careful Spell can be golden. Especially if you're level 7 or higher and there aren't any Rogues in the party to draw aggro and be the locus for your AoE. If you're not a blasty Sorcerer? Pass.

That seems kind of backwards. If you're a blasty sorcerer, all Careful Fireball will do is ensure that your allies take only 14ish points of damage instead of 28. They'll still probably be mad at you if you Fireball them except in an emergency, so Careful isn't even buying you all that much. On the other hand, if you're a non-blasty, control type sorcerer, Careful Web creates an area of terrain which is selectively hostile: all of your enemies have to make saving throws every single round or be restrained, but your allies always make their saves and are functionally immune to the spell except for the difficult terrain and light obscurement. Against low-Dex melee enemies it's really nasty. Similarly, Stinking Cloud against low-Con enemies denies your enemies half or more of their actions without affecting your allies at all.

Remember that Careful Spell, unlike Heightened, affects not just the next saving throw, but the entire casting of the spell. For save-every-round spells like Web and Stinking Cloud it's therefore really nice. Goes well with Repelling Blast if you happen to be a Sorlock instead of a pure sorc.


Empower is the only "blaster only" metamagic and it does a... good job at it. If you want to be a blaster Sorcerer, you want this. In the long run, Empowering your direct damage spells will give you a significant increase to your average damage.

Hmmmm. I just did some BOTE math and you're right, Empower is more significant than I thought. It's not a huge boost but that's mostly just because blasting spells in 5E are terrible--in percentage terms it's relatively large-ish. Empowered Fireball probably adds 5-6 points of damage to the base 28 points of damage. Empowered Fireball is terrible, but it's not more terrible than regular Fireball: 5 spell points for 28 damage is comparable to 5 spell points + 1 sorcery point for 33ish damage. If you're a Red Dragon Sorcerer that might be 38ish damage, which is verging on not-terrible.

[Ritorix]

I would recommend you break the choice up a bit.

First, pick a main metamagic, the one you really want to use and abuse. Twin and Empower are good to choose between. They both favor different types of spells. Both have pros and cons. Pick one.

Then you want utility. The two good options are Subtle and Quicken. Both are more forgiving with spell selection. Take Subtle if your campaign is going to favor the sort of social craziness you can get up to with that meta. Some games won't, some DMs won't. If not, take Quicken. Both are great.

At 10, take Heighten if you took Quicken. If you skipped Subtle, you probably skipped it for a reason, so it may not make sense to add it now. If you took Subtle, choose between Quicken and Heighten.

Ignore the rest of them. And read TheUser's guide earlier in this thread.

[JellyPooga]

That seems kind of backwards. If you're a blasty sorcerer, all Careful Fireball will do is ensure that your allies take only 14ish points of damage instead of 28. They'll still probably be mad at you if you Fireball them except in an emergency, so Careful isn't even buying you all that much. On the other hand, if you're a non-blasty, control type sorcerer, Careful Web creates an area of terrain which is selectively hostile: all of your enemies have to make saving throws every single round or be restrained, but your allies always make their saves and are functionally immune to the spell except for the difficult terrain and light obscurement. Against low-Dex melee enemies it's really nasty. Similarly, Stinking Cloud against low-Con enemies denies your enemies half or more of their actions without affecting your allies at all.

Remember that Careful Spell, unlike Heightened, affects not just the next saving throw, but the entire casting of the spell. For save-every-round spells like Web and Stinking Cloud it's therefore really nice. Goes well with Repelling Blast if you happen to be a Sorlock instead of a pure sorc.

Fair point and well considered.


Hmmmm. I just did some BOTE math and you're right, Empower is more significant than I thought. It's not a huge boost but that's mostly just because blasting spells in 5E are terrible--in percentage terms it's relatively large-ish. Empowered Fireball probably adds 5-6 points of damage to the base 28 points of damage. Empowered Fireball is terrible, but it's not more terrible than regular Fireball: 5 spell points for 28 damage is comparable to 5 spell points + 1 sorcery point for 33ish damage. If you're a Red Dragon Sorcerer that might be 38ish damage, which is verging on not-terrible.

This is somewhat misleading, though. 5-6 extra points of damage on a Fireball isn't really 5-6, but more like 25-30ish (or at least 15-20) because Fireball isn't a single target spell. 1 Sorcery point for 30 damage is a pretty good investment. As I said, it's a metamagic option for those that like the long-term increase to their average damage output; in the short term it won't seem like much but over the course of an adventure or two you'd see a pretty significant impact if you were to keep a running tally of its actual effect. That said, I'm not a fan of blaster Sorcerers in general, so Empower ranks pretty low for me.

[mephnick]

On the other hand, if you're a non-blasty, control type sorcerer, Careful Web creates an area of terrain which is selectively hostile: all of your enemies have to make saving throws every single round or be restrained, but your allies always make their saves and are functionally immune to the spell except for the difficult terrain and light obscurement. Against low-Dex melee enemies it's really nasty. Similarly, Stinking Cloud against low-Con enemies denies your enemies half or more of their actions without affecting your allies at all..

Careful Spell only effects the save of the turn it's cast. You'll still be catching your allies in your web and stinking clouds if you don't position it carefully, thus making careful spell a lot less useful.

[TheUser]

Hmmmm. I just did some BOTE math and you're right, Empower is more significant than I thought. It's not a huge boost but that's mostly just because blasting spells in 5E are terrible--in percentage terms it's relatively large-ish. Empowered Fireball probably adds 5-6 points of damage to the base 28 points of damage. Empowered Fireball is terrible, but it's not more terrible than regular Fireball: 5 spell points for 28 damage is comparable to 5 spell points + 1 sorcery point for 33ish damage. If you're a Red Dragon Sorcerer that might be 38ish damage, which is verging on not-terrible.


38 damage is verging on pretty freaking awesome when you consider how many enemies could be in that space. Let's assume you'll be using it to hit 4 targets minimum.

The difference between a regular level 6 wizard's fireball and an empowered Draconic Sorcerer's fireball is like the wizard casting the fireball with a level 6 slot (average 38.5)....

The trick to empower is realizing that while yes, it does add 5 average damage it's mostly by adding on to the lower damage range of fireball in a probability matrix:

http://anydice.com/program/d89

Essentially, a "crit" fireball is verging on ~36 (or higher) damage and a "crit miss" fireball is ~20 (or lower) damage with ~90% of fireballs falling between 21-35 damage. We can call this the "zone of likelyhood" where barring fluke rolls most fireballs are going to do an expected 21-35 damage.

Empower is like adding ~7 to the minimum and ~3 to the maximum as opposed to 5 to both ends. If that doesn't makes sense, then consider that you will have more dice to re-roll when your fireball is on the lower end and less to re-roll when it's on the higher end and so the odds of increasing damage with high end fireballs is reduced (and you can't technically go over the maximum damage with empower).

So with empower, the crit miss fireball looks more like the average fireball at 27 damage and the crit fireball is mediated at about 40 damage. So while the "crit" is only a bit higher the "crit miss" is still an average fireball for any other caster. 90% of the time an empowered fireball is between 28-38 damage instead of 21-35. EDIT: After you factor in draconic damage you're looking at 33-43 damage with the potential to still get crit fireballs in the 50's.

That's the power of consistency that re-rolls have. +7 to the minimum damage of a fireball and +3 to the maximum sounds a lot better than +5 to average damage.



Fair point and well considered.

This is somewhat misleading, though. 5-6 extra points of damage on a Fireball isn't really 5-6, but more like 25-30ish (or at least 15-20) because Fireball isn't a single target spell. 1 Sorcery point for 30 damage is a pretty good investment. As I said, it's a metamagic option for those that like the long-term increase to their average damage output; in the short term it won't seem like much but over the course of an adventure or two you'd see a pretty significant impact if you were to keep a running tally of its actual effect. That said, I'm not a fan of blaster Sorcerers in general, so Empower ranks pretty low for me.

And this is where we come to the krux of the argument. Firstly I would like to point out that re-rolling only two 1's on d6 dice yields an average increase of 5 damage. If you re-roll a 2 it's an average increase of 1.5 (and re-rolling a 3 only 0.5). So it's extremely easy to add 5-6 damage to a spell and it's often far more when the rolls are low.

Empower isn't about the flashy 1 time twinned spell that gives you some cool effect, it's about what repeated consistently high powered blast spells do to crap on encounters over the course of an adventuring day. Literally hundreds of total damage in one adventuring day in mid tier 2. If you're in disbelief imagine a single fireball hitting 6 targets get's empowered from the low end of 24 damage up to the higher end of 34 damage and after saves that's 45 extra damage in total.

This is really the only way to play a blaster and hope to feel good about the experience.

You don't waste spell slots or turns with low damage AoE nukes. You have one job, and it's to blow things up and you'll do it well. Even when enemies make the save on your blasting spells you're better off than other players who's attacks and abilities miss or whom the enemy can save to nullify their effects completely.

You wonder why I rank Empower S-Tier?

[SharkForce]

Careful Spell only effects the save of the turn it's cast. You'll still be catching your allies in your web and stinking clouds if you don't position it carefully, thus making careful spell a lot less useful.

that depends. if your DM takes dev tweets as gospel, this is true. if your DM thinks the DMG takes priority, it is not; careful spell just applies to the spell. nothing says it works only on the initial casting. you choose targets immediately, and those targets automatically pass their saves against the spell. not "their saves in the first round" or "the first saving throw they make", just their saves, as in any save they make, regardless of how many their may be and when they take place.

now, a recent dev tweet indicates that they apparently intended for careful to be on initial saves only. it isn't errata, so they haven't decided to make that official or anything, but it *is* a clear statement of intent (personally, i think you should ignore it, because actually having another metamagic be worthwhile for something that *isn't* hyper-niche and completely dependant on unusual scenarios when they gave sorcerers every single other short straw they could find sounds better than making even fewer metamagics compelling, and i personally think they should be looking for ways to do the opposite*).

but anyways, as noted, this isn't really something with a definitive answer. in 5e, you are *much* better off choosing the spells you want to use, and then asking yourself which metamagics would make those spells work even better. you essentially should plan out everything you would *like* your sorcerer to be, to the best of your ability, and choosing accordingly. many people swear by quicken, and for some builds it really is great (sorcadins in particular love to quicken one of the SCAG weapon cantrips and then use a regular attack action or another SCAG cantrip). but it might not be for your build; maybe you already have planned uses for your bonus action, or maybe in your build quicken would mostly only be useful for getting an extra cantrip in a round, which can be pretty underwhelming.

so, ultimately, first figure out what kind of sorcerer you want to be. then choose the spells that will make you good at that. then choose the metamagics that will make those spells even better. until you've got those first two parts figured out, you can't really make a good tier list.


* for example, in my personal opinion extend could really use some help. it isn't useless, but it's a hard choice when you have other more compelling options. however, if they were to allow you to hold off on using it until the spell is about to run out (which would also allow you to combine it with other metamagics, in much the same way that empower can be combined with other metamagics). that way you're never extending a haste that you lose concentration on in the second round, or extending a polymorph where the hit points are gone in the first five minutes, or extending a fly spell only to find out that you were actually well within normal range; any use of extend would thus be guaranteed to get at least *some* value.

[Contrast]

I'm currently playing a low level control sorc and took subtle and careful.

Careful is great for a few very specific spells if you discuss it with your DM to clarify how they will work beforehand (i.e. Web) and you remember that you can drop concentration once you've had your fun and people start getting tangled up. Hypnotic pattern is insane. The fact that subtle and careful are both cheap means almost every spell I cast has some form of metamagic on it.

Otherwise I would probably have gone for Twinned and Subtle. At low levels you want at most one expensive one otherwise you're gonna blow you load in a single spell.

Obviously the above choices change if you're not going for a control build but the principle stands.

Its worth saying the utility of subtle will vary wildly from DM to DM. In some campaigns it'll be the most powerful metamagic, in others it will be almost useless. I like if for the flavour anyway so :smallbiggrin:

[Citan]

Okay, so what meta-magics are best to go for at lv. 3? What about later on?

In my case, I'm focusing on fire and radiant magics as a favored soul sorc with some healing and defensive spells. What about other builds though? Looking for advice on this.
Hey ;)

I'm sorry but there is honestly no definite answer to this, especially for a Favored Soul Sorcerer in fact.
So I'll instead do a quick run-down of synergies for low-level spells, then pick what you like.


Careful
Note: I totally ditch the stupid Twitter ruling saying that only first save is affected. Check with your DM beforehand though.
Cleric spells: nothing to see, nearly all Cleric spells are allies-friendly in the first place.
Sorcerer spells: any save-based AOE damage spell obviously (although allies will still take some damage), Web, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud.

Distant
Well, as said in the Sorcerer active thread, it's great for any Sorcerer really.
Any spell that has 30 feet or less range is usually pretty dangerous to unleash for you.
60 feet is much more reasonable.
For Cleric specifically, it means that...
- You can Sanctuary a frontline ally that needs to fall back while keeping yourself in safety.
- Or if you went to frontline (FS gets medium armor and shield no?), it means you can give a good protection to a squishy friend in the backline which is directly threatened by enemies.
- If you want to maximize healing, it allows you to use Cure Wounds instead of Healing Words at the same distance. Honestly though? I'd still pick Healing Words instead, because bonus action and a now 60 feet range is much better overall imo.
- Also great with Command to force an enemy to Stop/Drop/Prone and help melee allies, or Blindness to blind a distant archer/caster. ;)
- At higher levels, makes Bestow Curse the best debuff ever by removing the main drawback ("touch" range).


Empowered
If you plan on using damage spells regularly, this should be a strong contender for your first choice. Making a damage roll go from "bad" to "good" is invaluable, especially at low levels when you have so few slots (so each cast must really count).

Extended
Obviously good for any buff or battlefield control
Cleric: Bless, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary (especially for allies needing time to prepare a spell like a Leomund's Tiny Hut or -much later- Delayed Blast Fireball), AID (cast before long rest), WARDING BOND (may last several encounters), Locate spells (situational but does provide margin of error during a chase for example), Spirit Guardians (may last 2 encounters).

Heightened
Counter-intuitively, if you intend to be mostly a buffer but want to keep one or two single-target debuffs to apply in a reliable way, this is a great choice. Otherwise, the steep SP cost makes it a bit too hard to be a sustainable metamagic in a full day, at least until you are at level level 6 and ready to convert some slots.

Quickened
This is usually a great Metamagic for any Sorcerer.
For a Favored Soul though? It really depends on your choice of spells: betwen Healing Words, Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon and I probably forget a few others, Cleric provide you many good ways to use your bonus action.
Soooo. Unless you pick only Healing Words or plan on being a tank (why would you though?) I'd say put it aside.

Subtle
If you pick a shield (except if you pick Warcaster before level 8) or want to shine in social encounters or want to be great against casters, this is a great one.
Otherwise you can safely favor another.

Twinned spell
Would say it's not necessarily a good idea for a first Metamagic as a Sorcerer because of the scaling cost.
As a Favored Soul though? If you pick several 1st or 2nd level single-target buffs from Cleric though (Shield of Faith, Healing Words, Sanctuary, Warding Bond, Protection from Evil etc), it's an extremely good one.

So, there you go. Ask yourself the kind of spells you want to use the most (or what your party needs most), make a short-list of the spells you definitely want to learn whatever happens, and decide on Metamagics with that.

IMO, a "default choice" (aka the most "versatile" if you had to choose without knowing spells) would be Twinned (because I don't see why someone would go Favored Soul, if not for grabbing healing/buff spells, and there as also many 1st level Sorcerer spells that go great with, like Chromatic Bolt) and Empowered (since you seem to have "packing a punch" in your character goals, also it's a low-cost one that can be combined with the previous one).

(To give you another point of view, my first choices would be Extended and Distant, to pair with Ray of Frost or Frostbite, Comprehend Languages, Bless, Bane, Sanctuary, Healing Words, Aid, Warding Bond, Fog Cloud, Bestow Curse, Disguise Self, Shatter etc, using Minor Illusion and Mold Earth to create a half-"square" of cover from archers, contributing to the fight exactly as if I was close to my frontliner friends, except much safer, keeping a high-level slot for Extended Aid if I can for the next day ;). I'd may even grab a few Warlock level for short-rest slots -cast Extended "1-hour" spell, take short rest, profit- XD)...

[samcifer]

I think I'll go with Empowered and Quickened for damage potential. Quickened will be held back on for times when two spells in a single turn can finish off an enemy or more, like two Firebolts or 2 doses of Sleep (which I'll get at lv. 2 or 3).

[TheUser]

I think I'll go with Empowered and Quickened for damage potential. Quickened will be held back on for times when two spells in a single turn can finish off an enemy or more, like two Firebolts or 2 doses of Sleep (which I'll get at lv. 2 or 3).

Just so you know, you can't double dose the sleep. If you quicken a spell you are limited to casting cantrips as other spells on that turn.

The other thing to note is that the spells that combo best with quicken don't come along for a while. Telekinesis, Dominate Person, Polymorph...SUNBEAM all come around at level 7 or higher.

Honestly if you want lots of easy damage twinned and empower work well together.

Technically twinning a firebolt counts as the same spell, so if you roll your damage simultaneously you can empower both rolls at the same time and since empower can be combined with other metamagic this presents no problems. Meanwhile quickening a cantrip followed by casting another cantrip costs twice as much as twinning would and requires you to empower both if they both flop since they are seperate spells. (so 4 sorcery points total instead of 2). You'd have all this and the utility/support value of twinning awesome buffs for you and your allies.

Take from that what you will. Quicken still makes you very hard to pin down, since you can always use your action to disengage, dodge, dash or hide after before or after casting a spell. If you do take it early I'd recommend using it to do any of those actions instead (unless of course you're squeezing out that finishing blow, which I'm not sure how you would figure out...).

[SharkForce]

it is worth noting that while twinned cantrips will give you as much damage for half the cost compared to quicken, quicken allows you to focus the damage on one target while twin forces you to spread it between two (also, twin won't work with multitargeting cantrips if that's a concern, so no greenflame blade or acid splash or swordburst)

[Citan]

I think I'll go with Empowered and Quickened for damage potential. Quickened will be held back on for times when two spells in a single turn can finish off an enemy or more, like two Firebolts or 2 doses of Sleep (which I'll get at lv. 2 or 3).
Except you cannot cast two non-cantrip spells with Quickened, since it falls back on PHB rule: IF bonus action spell THEN only cantrip with action.
Only way to circumvent is Twin (but incompatible with Sleep) or Action Surge (heavy investment, two full levels in Fighter).

[samcifer]

Just so you know, you can't double dose the sleep. If you quicken a spell you are limited to casting cantrips as other spells on that turn.

Where are you getting that from? There's no official errata on Quicken that I can find.

[MrStabby]

My preference is:

Careful
So many great spells force saves - potentially from allies. This really lets you have a specialist controller role in a party. Sometimes niche but very powerful when it happens. Given that SP are a limited resource situationally very powerful is good.

Subtle
For obvious reasons. Very powerful in a lot of situations

Twinned
A low cost meta for raising damage or for getting more milage from other spells. This is versatile. Cantrips scaling with level means that sorcerer can sustain some powerful damage output for most of the game with some massive effects to be called upon as needed.

[mephnick]

Where are you getting that from? There's no official errata on Quicken that I can find.

PhB. 202 under Casting Time - Bonus Action

[samcifer]

PhB. 202 under Casting Time - Bonus Action

Okay, found it. Thanks and @#^#@^@##%^@^!!! So much for THAT plan. :/ Okay, then I'll go with Twined so I can heal two people or give 2 an AC boost or fire a pair of single-target blasts.

[samcifer]

So Empowered and Twined then.

[samcifer]

So Empowered and Twined then.

Actually, based on the encounters in the home-brewed campaign I've been playing, distance has come up a lot. Because of this I'll go Distant and Careful.

Distant will let me get the range I've needed and lacked at times (like during last session when our druid pinned several enemies against the back wall with vines, but I couldn't safely get close enough to use Burning Hands to hit three of them like I really wanted to and had to settle for trying to hit only two of them with Acid Splash to only hit one of them for piddly damage whereas BH could've done better damage to all three of the ones I wanted to burn. And by the time I was able to close in to burn the final two foes, our barbarian was in the line of fire and didn't want me to hurt him too. :(

[Beechgnome]

Actually, based on the encounters in the home-brewed campaign I've been playing, distance has come up a lot. Because of this I'll go Distant and Careful.

Distant will let me get the range I've needed and lacked at times (like during last session when our druid pinned several enemies against the back wall with vines, but I couldn't safely get close enough to use Burning Hands to hit three of them like I really wanted to and had to settle for trying to hit only two of them with Acid Splash to only hit one of them for piddly damage whereas BH could've done better damage to all three of the ones I wanted to burn. And by the time I was able to close in to burn the final two foes, our barbarian was in the line of fire and didn't want me to hurt him too. :(

Though I am a big champion of distant, it won't help with burning hands, since that spell's range is Self, that is, it must emanate from you and can only go 15 feet.

Distant is useful for 4 things:

Touch spells: control the battlefield without actually getting in the middle of things. Shocking grasp, Invisibility, enhance ability, fly and spider climb all give your teammates added mobility in a fight, and many of these can be up cast to add multiple targets.

Spells with bad range: blindness/deafness, Telekinesis and counterspell are all amazing spells made better when you can double the distance. Particularly counterspell.

Spells where distance = area. A small list, but the SCAG force cantrip and Seeming both determine area based on distance. So 4 times the area affected for one spell point.

Spells where you want to go REALLY far. Earthbind, fireball, Catapult... Now you are a siege weapon, knocking 'em out of the sky. Super situational.

[samcifer]

Though I am a big champion of distant, it won't help with burning hands, since that spell's range is Self, that is, it must emanate from you and can only go 15 feet.

Distant is useful for 4 things:

Touch spells: control the battlefield without actually getting in the middle of things. Shocking grasp, Invisibility, enhance ability, fly and spider climb all give your teammates added mobility in a fight, and many of these can be up cast to add multiple targets.

Spells with bad range: blindness/deafness, Telekinesis and counterspell are all amazing spells made better when you can double the distance. Particularly counterspell.

Spells where distance = area. A small list, but the SCAG force cantrip and Seeming both determine area based on distance. So 4 times the area affected for one spell point.

Spells where you want to go REALLY far. Earthbind, fireball, Catapult... Now you are a siege weapon, knocking 'em out of the sky. Super situational.

In that case, I'll ditch BH at the next level as the range is too short for me to be able to make decent use of it based on the environments my campaign takes place within. Think I'll swap it out for Chromatic Orb.

[samcifer]

So yeah, Distant and Twinned sound better for lv. 3 choices. Careful is out because I believe that it does not prevent 1/2 damage on a save effects from hurting allies and I plan on going for a few of them, so Careful wouldn't work for me.

Second round of picks I think will be Quicken and Empowered. Not sure if I'll go up to lv. 17 on sorcery or not as the other metamagics don't seem worth striving for. Being a warlock as well, I have Hex, which works on multiple turns, I won't have enough long-term spells to make use of Extended, and Subtle is too situational imo. Careful will be out as well since friendly fire will be too common a problem to be worth taking. I might just go 4 warlock and 16 sorc.

[Marcloure]

I'm playing a support/utility Favored Soul too. At level 3 I chose Twinned (for double buffs/curses) and Quickened. The frist one was an easy pick, but I took a long time to decide between Quickened or Subtle. I'm not yet sure that I made the right decision though.
About Twinned, it has shown to be great at everything. Twin Guiding Bolt did a thing on the encounters and I could do it a fair amount of time, since it's a level 1 spell. Haste on two allies is also a combat changer. I haven't used Quickened yet, I don't think that wasting SP for a cantrip is worth and I use my bonus for Spiritual Weapon anyway, but I took it if I ever need to disengage or sustain some other spell with my action. If my character was less proud of her magic or more social oriented (she doesn't have Inv, Suggestion, etc), I would surely go for subtle.
At level 10, I plan to get Heightened Spell.

[samcifer]

I'm playing a support/utility Favored Soul too. At level 3 I chose Twinned (for double buffs/curses) and Quickened. The frist one was an easy pick, but I took a long time to decide between Quickened or Subtle. I'm not yet sure that I made the right decision though.
About Twinned, it has shown to be great at everything. Twin Guiding Bolt did a thing on the encounters and I could do it a fair amount of time, since it's a level 1 spell. Haste on two allies is also a combat changer. I haven't used Quickened yet, I don't think that wasting SP for a cantrip is worth and I use my bonus for Spiritual Weapon anyway, but I took it if I ever need to disengage or sustain some other spell with my action. If my character was less proud of her magic or more social oriented (she doesn't have Inv, Suggestion, etc), I would surely go for subtle.
At level 10, I plan to get Heightened Spell.

My character is a blaster who primarily uses fire and radiant dmg spells and hates head-game spells, so he avoids the ones that manipulate the minds of others. I'm going for distant early because some of the encounters I've been in have involved great distances (like fighting an army of bowmen on a beached ship from shore), so distance is relevant in my campaign.

[tieren]

I'm playing a Sea Sorcerer in SKT. My AC is very poor (at character creation I focused on mental stats as a RP preference and didn't put much in Dex). I like to portray that they want to stay as far from combat as possible and I intend to take the Distant spell meta-magic. I also intend to take the spell sniper feat at some point to make the ranges quadruple (or shocking grasp from 60 feet for example).

I'm torn on the other choice, my first instinct was to go quicken for the wide range of utility options (kind of like cunning action without a rogue dip), but my group is hungry for some twinned buff spells and talking me into going that way.

I tend to drop prone a lot right now, which works fine from long range mechanically but doesn't feel very heroic. If I could instead keep full mobility and take the dodge action instead I think it would feel better. However I also do like the idea of doubling the buffs (currently enlarge/reduce but eventually haste).

[samcifer]

I'm playing a Sea Sorcerer in SKT. My AC is very poor (at character creation I focused on mental stats as a RP preference and didn't put much in Dex). I like to portray that they want to stay as far from combat as possible and I intend to take the Distant spell meta-magic. I also intend to take the spell sniper feat at some point to make the ranges quadruple (or shocking grasp from 60 feet for example).

I'm torn on the other choice, my first instinct was to go quicken for the wide range of utility options (kind of like cunning action without a rogue dip), but my group is hungry for some twinned buff spells and talking me into going that way.

I tend to drop prone a lot right now, which works fine from long range mechanically but doesn't feel very heroic. If I could instead keep full mobility and take the dodge action instead I think it would feel better. However I also do like the idea of doubling the buffs (currently enlarge/reduce but eventually haste).

Yeah, my group has a druid, a cleric and an artificer as well as a barbarian and fighter. I focus on being an arcane striker, so twinning single-target spells seems like a better choice. I'll probably take a feat in spell sniper for added range rather than go for +2 charisma as I'm already at 18, so the increase can wait.

[SharkForce]

So yeah, Distant and Twinned sound better for lv. 3 choices. Careful is out because I believe that it does not prevent 1/2 damage on a save effects from hurting allies and I plan on going for a few of them, so Careful wouldn't work for me.

Second round of picks I think will be Quicken and Empowered. Not sure if I'll go up to lv. 17 on sorcery or not as the other metamagics don't seem worth striving for. Being a warlock as well, I have Hex, which works on multiple turns, I won't have enough long-term spells to make use of Extended, and Subtle is too situational imo. Careful will be out as well since friendly fire will be too common a problem to be worth taking. I might just go 4 warlock and 16 sorc.

careful isn't for nuking (unless your party has a front line consisting of rogue(s), monk(s), and people with shield expert). or maybe if they all have resistance (1/4 on a typical fireball is 7 damage... that doesn't sound too bad to risk). it's for crowd control.

you use careful on web so your own front line can walk around in it no problem. you use web on stinking cloud so that your own party can fight in it and never fail a save. you use web on a fear spell so that it ignores your own party and works on everyone beyond them.

so yes, careful probably wouldn't work for you. but it has nothing to do with the half damage problem, it has to do with the fact that you want a completely different kind of spell than careful is good for.

[Marcloure]

careful isn't for nuking (unless your party has a front line consisting of rogue(s), monk(s), and people with shield expert). or maybe if they all have resistance (1/4 on a typical fireball is 7 damage... that doesn't sound too bad to risk). it's for crowd control.

you use careful on web so your own front line can walk around in it no problem. you use web on stinking cloud so that your own party can fight in it and never fail a save. you use web on a fear spell so that it ignores your own party and works on everyone beyond them.

so yes, careful probably wouldn't work for you. but it has nothing to do with the half damage problem, it has to do with the fact that you want a completely different kind of spell than careful is good for.

You can't use Careful Spell on Web or anything that has a save not at the moment you cast the spell (Flaming Sphere, Grease if it was in Sorc list, etc). It is clear to me through RAW, and the devs have already confirmed that it only works on the saves on the turn the spell is cast.

[SharkForce]

You can't use Careful Spell on Web or anything that has a save not at the moment you cast the spell (Flaming Sphere, Grease if it was in Sorc list, etc). It is clear to me through RAW, and the devs have already confirmed that it only works on the saves on the turn the spell is cast.

that isn't clear through RAW at all. quite the opposite, in fact. you choose people immediately to protect. then they are protected. nothing says "protected for one turn", "protected from one saving throw", "protected from the initial saving throw", or anything else remotely like that. all it says is that you protect them, and then they automatically save against that spell. if the devs want to issue errata and take a metamagic that isn't garbage and turn it into one that is, then they can do it officially, with errata, and change the RAW to inflict their crappydesign on us. this isn't even a situation where RAW is unclear and dev statements clarify it; RAW is completely clear, just as it has been for years, and no amount of the devs telling us that they intended for it to be a steaming pile of bovine excrement is going to change the fact that they accidentally made something that doesn't suck instead of deliberately making something that does suck.

[samcifer]

There was an effect for a feat in 4e that let you omit squares from an AoE spell. Wish that was present in 5e. :(

[Marcloure]

"When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force."

A spell like Web doesn't know what creatures will be "forced" to make a save when it's cast. The spell let you protect "some of those creatures [forced to make a saving throw]", and you choose the protected creatures when you cast it. Also, "[it] automatically succeeds on its saving throw", in singular and present tense, so the text isn't considering multiple saves.

[tieren]

There was an effect for a feat in 4e that let you omit squares from an AoE spell. Wish that was present in 5e. :(

Evoker wizards get that

[SharkForce]

"When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force."

A spell like Web doesn't know what creatures will be "forced" to make a save when it's cast. The spell let you protect "some of those creatures [forced to make a saving throw]", and you choose the protected creatures when you cast it. Also, "[it] automatically succeeds on its saving throw", in singular and present tense, so the text isn't considering multiple saves.

gee, if only there was someone controlling the web. like, you know... concentrating on it or something. someone who, if they were to stop concentrating, would see the spell just stop existing entirely, almost as if that spell's existence was completely dependant on the person.

if only.

oh, hey wait, there is. problem solved! [/sarcasm]

the spell doesn't need to know, the caster does, which makes sense, since the caster designates who is protected, not the spell.

and yes, the ability references one saving throw. that's how many you make at a time. one. not two, or seven, or twenty, or pi, or -3. just one. if you have to make a saving throw, you succeed on that saving throw. if you later have to make a saving throw, well, you succeed on that one too.

or, alternately, any spell that ever allows any creature to make more than one saving throw is an invalid target, since, after all, that very same singular present tense is right there in what kind of spell you can use the ability on, making the ability work on like three spells that i can think of. only one of which would have it be remotely useful.

so, we have this kinda sketchy interpretation that makes the ability a useless trap option, and one that makes the sorcerer's only strength an actual strength. again: if the devs want to errata the ability to be a piece of garbage, they can do that properly.

even in that tweet, note that crawford doesn't say that is how careful spell works, he says that's how they intended it to work. when someone pointed out that this was an absolutely garbage interpretation that made the spell suck, he didn't correct them and say it was RAW, he just pointed out that they intended the ability to work with spells like fireball (for which use it is complete and utter crap: notice how the OP here, who the devs INTENDED the ability to be targeted to, read the ability description, and immediately decided it was not worth taking. a dedicated nuker would rather have distant than careful. that is how much of a piece of crap the ability was intended to be. in the intended form, nobody wants to even touch it with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole. it would have been a trap option, if it weren't for the fact that it is so obviously bad that everyone knows to avoid it.).

RAW, the ability works with spells like web and stinking cloud, and is worth taking *if* that is what you want to specialize in. RAI, it is a steaming pile of poop that has such an abhorrent stench that nobody wants to come near it.

now, you can use that RAI ruling if you want, but that's all it is right now: RAI.

[samcifer]

gee, if only there was someone controlling the web. like, you know... concentrating on it or something. someone who, if they were to stop concentrating, would see the spell just stop existing entirely, almost as if that spell's existence was completely dependant on the person.

if only.

oh, hey wait, there is. problem solved! [/sarcasm]

the spell doesn't need to know, the caster does, which makes sense, since the caster designates who is protected, not the spell.

and yes, the ability references one saving throw. that's how many you make at a time. one. not two, or seven, or twenty, or pi, or -3. just one. if you have to make a saving throw, you succeed on that saving throw. if you later have to make a saving throw, well, you succeed on that one too.

or, alternately, any spell that ever allows any creature to make more than one saving throw is an invalid target, since, after all, that very same singular present tense is right there in what kind of spell you can use the ability on, making the ability work on like three spells that i can think of. only one of which would have it be remotely useful.

so, we have this kinda sketchy interpretation that makes the ability a useless trap option, and one that makes the sorcerer's only strength an actual strength. again: if the devs want to errata the ability to be a piece of garbage, they can do that properly.

even in that tweet, note that crawford doesn't say that is how careful spell works, he says that's how they intended it to work. when someone pointed out that this was an absolutely garbage interpretation that made the spell suck, he didn't correct them and say it was RAW, he just pointed out that they intended the ability to work with spells like fireball (for which use it is complete and utter crap: notice how the OP here, who the devs INTENDED the ability to be targeted to, read the ability description, and immediately decided it was not worth taking. a dedicated nuker would rather have distant than careful. that is how much of a piece of crap the ability was intended to be. in the intended form, nobody wants to even touch it with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole. it would have been a trap option, if it weren't for the fact that it is so obviously bad that everyone knows to avoid it.).

RAW, the ability works with spells like web and stinking cloud, and is worth taking *if* that is what you want to specialize in. RAI, it is a steaming pile of poop that has such an abhorrent stench that nobody wants to come near it.

now, you can use that RAI ruling if you want, but that's all it is right now: RAI.

Maybe if it just omitted squares or let you pick whichever creatures you want to be immune to the effects of a spell that requires each creature make a saving throw, it would be much more effective.

[TheUser]

gee, if only there was someone controlling the web. like, you know... concentrating on it or something. someone who, if they were to stop concentrating, would see the spell just stop existing entirely, almost as if that spell's existence was completely dependant on the person.

if only.

oh, hey wait, there is. problem solved! [/sarcasm]

the spell doesn't need to know, the caster does, which makes sense, since the caster designates who is protected, not the spell.

and yes, the ability references one saving throw. that's how many you make at a time. one. not two, or seven, or twenty, or pi, or -3. just one. if you have to make a saving throw, you succeed on that saving throw. if you later have to make a saving throw, well, you succeed on that one too.

or, alternately, any spell that ever allows any creature to make more than one saving throw is an invalid target, since, after all, that very same singular present tense is right there in what kind of spell you can use the ability on, making the ability work on like three spells that i can think of. only one of which would have it be remotely useful.

so, we have this kinda sketchy interpretation that makes the ability a useless trap option, and one that makes the sorcerer's only strength an actual strength. again: if the devs want to errata the ability to be a piece of garbage, they can do that properly.

even in that tweet, note that crawford doesn't say that is how careful spell works, he says that's how they intended it to work. when someone pointed out that this was an absolutely garbage interpretation that made the spell suck, he didn't correct them and say it was RAW, he just pointed out that they intended the ability to work with spells like fireball (for which use it is complete and utter crap: notice how the OP here, who the devs INTENDED the ability to be targeted to, read the ability description, and immediately decided it was not worth taking. a dedicated nuker would rather have distant than careful. that is how much of a piece of crap the ability was intended to be. in the intended form, nobody wants to even touch it with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole. it would have been a trap option, if it weren't for the fact that it is so obviously bad that everyone knows to avoid it.).

RAW, the ability works with spells like web and stinking cloud, and is worth taking *if* that is what you want to specialize in. RAI, it is a steaming pile of poop that has such an abhorrent stench that nobody wants to come near it.

now, you can use that RAI ruling if you want, but that's all it is right now: RAI.

While I agree I would caution that DM's in AL are far more likely to side with Dev tweets to allow for some consistency.

[SharkForce]

While I agree I would caution that DM's in AL are far more likely to side with Dev tweets to allow for some consistency.

they're not supposed to, as i understand. they're supposed to use RAW.

[samcifer]

Looking over the spells I'd like ot have and came up with a question:

Can Hex be twinned? IT sounds like it's eligible, but I want to make sure first.

[Marcloure]

Looking over the spells I'd like ot have and came up with a question:

Can Hex be twinned? IT sounds like it's eligible, but I want to make sure first.

Yes, it can be. I am not sure how to move them around though.

[SharkForce]

Looking over the spells I'd like ot have and came up with a question:

Can Hex be twinned? IT sounds like it's eligible, but I want to make sure first.

not sure. you can target more than one person with hex already, provided you kill the first one, so... unclear?

[samcifer]

not sure. you can target more than one person with hex already, provided you kill the first one, so... unclear?

But only one target at a time.

[samcifer]

But only one target at a time.

I sent a tweet to that Mearl(?) guy asking for a resolution on this, but haven't gotten a response yet.

[InspectorG]

DEPENDS

Early Meta magics should be cheap and depend on your build.

Im inclined to Sublte(cant be countered, stealth element, helps if captured/bound, social situations, sabotage, etc)

And either Empower(boost a bad role and salvaging an otherwise wasted spell) or Twin(if focused on Buffing but choose wisely)

IMO:

Extend is weak - likely gonna be spell dependent but i say bump the duration to more than just double. x4 duration?
Most spells it wont matter but im sure there are a few that would need tones-down if this were the case.


Distance is also kinda weak. What i would like to see is Touch based spells range out to 60ft.
That would give Sorcerers utility on spells other casters couldnt do(unless they dipped)

All in all its gonna depend on build, multiclass, and level.

[samcifer]

Okay, so I'm going over a list of spells I want for my sorc and seeing which ones use empower and which ones are compatible with Twinned as well as looking over distance spells and seeing how many of them NEED distant to have a better amount of usefulness for me and so far it's looking like empowered and Twinned have tons of valid spells that I want to use. Since I'm going to warlock 2 for my 3rd level and choosing Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear for my invocations (distance has come up a few times already in the campaign, so it's worth taking), the distant metamagic shouldn't really be needed until later on in my character's career, so twin seems like a better choice for an early pick along with empowered. I'll take Distant and Quickened for my second set of picks as by then, I'll have enough sp to justify spending some on quicken in combat.

[samcifer]

I sent a tweet to that Mearl(?) guy asking for a resolution on this, but haven't gotten a response yet.

Okay, I got a response from him:

"@mikemearls Hey there. Want to twin Hex using metamagic, but can I and what happens with redirecting each curse if yes?"

A: " Mike Mearls‏ @mikemearls 8h8 hours ago
Replying to @******* (censored for my privacy)

i believe it works out - you have two targets, change 1 target each time one drops, keeping 2"

So if that's the case, twin will definitely be one of my first metamagics. But he time I get to lv. 5 on my character (2 warlock / 3 sorc) I'll know what other meta to go for along with it.

[InspectorG]

Okay, I got a response from him:

"@mikemearls Hey there. Want to twin Hex using metamagic, but can I and what happens with redirecting each curse if yes?"

A: " Mike Mearls‏ @mikemearls 8h8 hours ago
Replying to @******* (censored for my privacy)

i believe it works out - you have two targets, change 1 target each time one drops, keeping 2"

So if that's the case, twin will definitely be one of my first metamagics. But he time I get to lv. 5 on my character (2 warlock / 3 sorc) I'll know what other meta to go for along with it.

Man...

Wild Magic Sorcerer + Magic Initiate(E.Blast + Hex + whatevs) or Sorlock would get:

Twinned Hex + Tides of Chaos + Bend Luck = bad day for Big Bad? Target the appropriate Ability and Hex it, then Blast it?

If your party had another caster, it could get even more ugly.

Could a Divination Wizard touch this?


- Side note:
What is players interested in Wild Sorcerers framed the *randomness* argument to their DM as DM could fiat if Wild Surge triggers after casting a lvl1+ spell, but player has option to use it to recharge Tides of Chaos. Use it sparingly until other PCs start asking you to use it in Clutch circumstances?

This way random dreaded TPK Fireball has way less chance to happen(they dont know slim the odds are anyhow) and Sorc PC gets to use Wild Surge as a recharge for being awesome?

More of a matter of framing the issue?

[samcifer]

Man...

Wild Magic Sorcerer + Magic Initiate(E.Blast + Hex + whatevs) or Sorlock would get:

Twinned Hex + Tides of Chaos + Bend Luck = bad day for Big Bad? Target the appropriate Ability and Hex it, then Blast it?

If your party had another caster, it could get even more ugly.

Could a Divination Wizard touch this?


- Side note:
What is players interested in Wild Sorcerers framed the *randomness* argument to their DM as DM could fiat if Wild Surge triggers after casting a lvl1+ spell, but player has option to use it to recharge Tides of Chaos. Use it sparingly until other PCs start asking you to use it in Clutch circumstances?

This way random dreaded TPK Fireball has way less chance to happen(they dont know slim the odds are anyhow) and Sorc PC gets to use Wild Surge as a recharge for being awesome?

More of a matter of framing the issue?

I'm already locked in as favored soul for the extra spell access as well as healing options.