Thematic Cleric builds and making more interesting clerics

[Postmodernist]

Hey everyone,

I've noticed that, due to optimization considerations or an overall lack of imagination, most of the clerics I see tend to be pretty much the same overall. Lots of War clerics with DMM: Persisted Divine Power, a surprising number of Planning Domain takers for that free Extend Spell feat, lots of Wee Jas worshipers, Travel Domain takers, the Trickery domain stealth cleric, the occasional Undeath domain necromancer, etc.

The irony is that the cleric class is one of the most customizable classes. I've seen the occasional unique cleric, taking weird domains or making more thematic builds. I saw a fun build for a love deity cleric focused on seduction, taking something like the Charm and Domination domains. I've seen a few fun racially-aligned characters, like a kobold cleric taking Greed and Kobold domains.

What are some of the more intriguing builds you guys have seen, and how can we encourage players to throw a little more fun into a class that is already one of the most optimized in 3.5 out of the box?

[paperarmor]

I like the command and control cleric. Take as many domains that let you rebuke and control creatures and go nuts.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The cleric variants from Dragon #311 can add some fun options while defying a lot of standard optimization tactics.

[Postmodernist]

The cleric variants from Dragon #311 can add some fun options while defying a lot of standard optimization tactics.

Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

[ZamielVanWeber]

The cleric variants all trade out turn and all but one trade out domains for class features. My favorites are Ancestral Speaker which has scaling class features that buff skills, a good reflex, 2 more skill point per level, and any 2 skills as class skills. Gives me the opportunity to run a skillful cleric and since those class skills vary between builds it opens up opportunities for cool things.

The other I like is the evangelist: they get spells known and per day as sorcerer but they know all their domain spells and slowly gain domains as they level up, starting with 2 at 1st and up to 6 at 20th. It means that domain choice is important, but you get a ton of domain powers and may end up using odd spells because of your unusual list. No access to DMM means you get to be more creative with how you use your spells.

[Postmodernist]

The cleric variants all trade out turn and all but one trade out domains for class features. My favorites are Ancestral Speaker which has scaling class features that buff skills, a good reflex, 2 more skill point per level, and any 2 skills as class skills. Gives me the opportunity to run a skillful cleric and since those class skills vary between builds it opens up opportunities for cool things.

The other I like is the evangelist: they get spells known and per day as sorcerer but they know all their domain spells and slowly gain domains as they level up, starting with 2 at 1st and up to 6 at 20th. It means that domain choice is important, but you get a ton of domain powers and may end up using odd spells because of your unusual list. No access to DMM means you get to be more creative with how you use your spells.

That certainly sounds interesting. I'm still thinking in more thematic terms, though. Taking unusual or less-than-optimized domains because they're thematically aligned with the build.

[Telonius]

Playing a non-standard Cleric now; Cloistered Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. She's a Cleric of Olidammara (using LucidSavant's excellent reimagining (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445953-My-pantheon-s-take-on-Olidammara) of the Laughing Rogue). Very smartypants brewer, pulling duties as healer, face, and part-time sniper (with Eldritch Blast). The lower levels are a real pain (thanks to the lost caster levels), but it's been a load of fun so far.

[Goaty14]

I saw an cleric of entropy, who's alignment was C_, the DM let him have an artifact, which, after rolling D% each day, would either make him good or evil.

[Chronikoce]

I like battle clerics but hate how DMM makes the cleric boring as well. So my current solution is heading for the ordained champion prestige class. Though it's in pbp so I can't tell you what I think of the build in play for probably a year

[TheBrassDuke]

I know it's probably been done a lot before, and so it's not really unique, but I found it interesting and cool:

the Shadow Priestess (Cloistered Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Shadow Adept/ShadowCraft Mage), a former Ordained Judgemaster-and-Inquisitor for a Good church, betrayed and murdered, and then brought back by the Umbral goddess to serve directly. A very fun cleric to play, and my second EVER.

[Stormstrider]

Hey everyone,

I've noticed that, due to optimization considerations or an overall lack of imagination, most of the clerics I see tend to be pretty much the same overall. Lots of War clerics with DMM: Persisted Divine Power, a surprising number of Planning Domain takers for that free Extend Spell feat, lots of Wee Jas worshipers, Travel Domain takers, the Trickery domain stealth cleric, the occasional Undeath domain necromancer, etc.

The irony is that the cleric class is one of the most customizable classes. I've seen the occasional unique cleric, taking weird domains or making more thematic builds. I saw a fun build for a love deity cleric focused on seduction, taking something like the Charm and Domination domains. I've seen a few fun racially-aligned characters, like a kobold cleric taking Greed and Kobold domains.

What are some of the more intriguing builds you guys have seen, and how can we encourage players to throw a little more fun into a class that is already one of the most optimized in 3.5 out of the box?

I think that's because a lot of the settings do not flesh out their religions well. In most D&D and Pathfinder settings I am not interested enough in their religions to make a cleric. In Golarian and Eberron I love the detail placed into the religions and even priesthoods. In those settings, cleric characters are some of my favorites to play.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1
Spontaneous domain casting (Magic domain)
Abilities: 13+ wisdom (to cast dispel magic), 14+ charisma (to have 5 turn attempts)
Domains: Inquisition (bonus, from Church Inquisitor), Knowledge, Magic, Purification
Feats: Divine Defiance, Domain Focus (Magic), Versatile Spellcaster
Items: dispelling cord (1000 gp)
Caster level 6, +1 for abjurations (Purification domain), +1 for Magic domain spells (Domain Focus)
+5 on dispel checks (+4 Inquisition domain, +1 Penetrating Insight, from Paragnostic Apostle)
+2 on dispel checks 5/day from dispelling cord

With one turn undead use, you can counterspell as an immediate action, burning any prepared spell(s) to spontaneously cast dispel magic. With Versatile Spellcaster, you have at least 5 third-level spells per day. Your bonus on dispel checks is +15, 5/day, and +13 after that (but you're out of spells anyway). At level 6, nothing magical is going to get past you for a long time.
This was intended to be an NPC cleric. You can continue this type of build quite a lot further, but you may want to find a way to cast greater dispel magic spontaneously.

[Eldariel]

I think that's because a lot of the settings do not flesh out their religions well. In most D&D and Pathfinder settings I am not interested enough in their religions to make a cleric. In Golarian and Eberron I love the detail placed into the religions and even priesthoods. In those settings, cleric characters are some of my favorites to play.

You can't really speak about religion in settings where deities actually verifiably exist and interact with the world to the point where they might die, mortals may ascend to godhood, mortals can talk to deities and ask about the future (which the deities know), etc.

Deities in e.g FR and Greyhawk are a fact and the multiverse is verifiably the way it is. Thua religion can't really exist and churches are more like political parties advancing their patron's interests in the multiversal power struggle.

[xyamius]

Cleric of Kord went War, Wrath domains. Right now build is the old persist so i can get at least one buff always running.

We have an Wizard going incantrix and the party is about to go into session 2 and we started at level 1.

Right now my big hit is Rhino's Rush while charging in with a Greatsword and pump strength as far as i can for a one hit crunch while enlarged by the wizard.

Later on the plan is incantrix persist Enlarge, DMM persist Divine Power, use (Arms of many + Girallon's Blessing + Fuse Arms ) incantrix persist for +8 strength. Total is +16 to strength for 24 hours. Then use power attack maxed + blade of blood empowered and maximized + rhino's rush to just be a one shot boss killer.

May go straight cleric but would like to get Strength and destruction domains to add to the crush ability. Later on will have be looking at chained polymorph from the wizard to be a troll and then do that buff so i can at the end use Iron body for 15/adamantine with all the immunities it gives + regeneration 5 from being a troll + all the persist strength buffs and the extra damage from domains and spell options should make a solid tank damage cleric.

[ayvango]

I suggested once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481605-Cleric-build-focused-on-turn-checks) to build cleric that would turn everything that is turnable. Use domain draught and domain substitution to adjust list of turnable creatures. Use spells to heighten turning level and damage.

[Karl Aegis]

Be a Human cleric of Zarus. Take the strength and destiny domains. Equip a greatsword. Focus your feats on the Stone Mountain Discipline. Become an immovable object and crush your enemies into submission. Be fabulous.

[barakaka]

Magic of Incarnum has a neat cleric feat for spending turn attempts to boost your essentia (your soul stuff). There's also the Sapphire Hierarch PrC which is focused heavily on laying down the law and being an immovable object. Use the Divine Soultouch feat and the Channel Incarnum ability from the Azurin Cleric racial substitution to boost your meldshaping to respectable levels.

Use cleric casting for your offense, because meldshaping is much a better defensive tool than offensive. Or just be the tank and healer at the same time. Therapeutic Mantle soulmeld helps with that greatly.

[sjeshin]

I like to use the feat divine defiance with church inquisitor and the appropriate domains to simply be able to say "no" to enemy spellcasters on the fly, no preparation. My DM liked it so much he used it in his 7 layers of hell dungeon.

[Postmodernist]

Playing a non-standard Cleric now; Cloistered Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. She's a Cleric of Olidammara (using LucidSavant's excellent reimagining (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445953-My-pantheon-s-take-on-Olidammara) of the Laughing Rogue). Very smartypants brewer, pulling duties as healer, face, and part-time sniper (with Eldritch Blast). The lower levels are a real pain (thanks to the lost caster levels), but it's been a load of fun so far.

That's a super cool write up.

These are all great suggestions. It's just weird - the idea is that there are these gods and their clerics, with enough followers to constitute an entire faith and code of conduct, yet in play we just see a lot of the same old same old. Where are the Slime/Herald/Cavern/etc. priests? Any other fun nonsense builds?

[jdizzlean]

have one planned out that i have yet to play, but base cleric 3, followed by church inquisitor 6, followed by knight of the raven 9, and tossing in the saint template somewhere in there which has a LA+2.

race is illumian for fun and enjoyment factor:
@ 2nd lvl: gain Power Sigil: Hoon - +2 bonus to WIS checks, CON checks, and WIS/CON based skill checks
@2nd lvl Krau bonus to +2 bonus to caster lvl for all spells and spell like abilities
@ 2nd lvl gain Illumian Word: Hoonkrau - spend a turn undead attempt as a swift action to add 1d8 to a cure spell, or 1d8 to damage dealt by an inflict spell before the end of next turn, usable 2x/day

pretty much a righteous undead slayer and layer of the law.

diety is st cuthbert, and joining the church of scales of balance from complete champion for RPness.

[RoboEmperor]

Check my sig for a planar binding master cleric.

[Postmodernist]

Check my sig for a planar binding master cleric.

Dig it. A Demonic Lust cleric is thematically consistent and interesting.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Dig it. A Demonic Lust cleric is thematically consistent and interesting.

If you do not want to be a cleric of a cause with that build Malcanthet, Pazuzu, Graz'zt and (if you are feeling ballsy) Shemi-Amorai could all give that combo by fluff and many of them give very few domains, especially compared with core gods givING close to 10, you may be able to convince a DM to let you have that combo. It's not RAW to be clear but the fluff matches perfectly.

[sorcererlover]

If you do not want to be a cleric of a cause with that build Malcanthet, Pazuzu, Graz'zt and (if you are feeling ballsy) Shemi-Amorai could all give that combo by fluff and many of them give very few domains, especially compared with core gods givING close to 10, you may be able to convince a DM to let you have that combo. It's not RAW to be clear but the fluff matches perfectly.

You don't need a deity to be a cleric. Deityless clerics exist in all settings except forgotten realms. All the setting books explicitly say there are deityless clerics. Also you really want to worship a Demon and do their evil bidding committing horrendous atrocities? o_o

I play in forgotten realms because of my DM which is why I play sorcerer instead of a cleric who has to be a slave to some god.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You don't need a deity to be a cleric. Deityless clerics exist in all settings except forgotten realms. All the setting books explicitly say there are deityless clerics. Also you really want to worship a Demon and do their evil bidding committing horrendous atrocities? o_o

I play in forgotten realms because of my DM which is why I play sorcerer instead of a cleric who has to be a slave to some god.

The first line of the post you quoted is saying that these options are being suggested explicitly in case that you do not want to be a deity less cleric. Not all DMS permit them and some players genuinely do not prefer them. I forgot Sertrous is also an option if you want to stay south of neutral.

[sorcererlover]

The first line of the post you quoted is saying that these options are being suggested explicitly in case that you do not want to be a deity less cleric. Not all DMS permit them and some players genuinely do not prefer them. I forgot Sertrous is also an option if you want to stay south of neutral.

If you want to play a deityless cleric and your DM railroads you to play his homebrew variant... get a new DM.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If you want to play a deityless cleric and your DM railroads you to play his homebrew variant... get a new DM.
Wha? How on Earth is a houserule "railroading?" By that standard removing drown healing is "railroading" you into cure spells. Also that advice is absolutely awful. You are seriously suggesting that anyone who places any restrictions on characters is so bad the game is not worth playing. That is just beyond outrageous.
Also you still ignores the fact that list also serves as options for people who do not want to be a cleric of a cause. Are you actually reading what I am writing?

[sorcererlover]

Wha? How on Earth is a houserule "railroading?" By that standard removing drown healing is "railroading" you into cure spells. Also that advice is absolutely awful. You are seriously suggesting that anyone who places any restrictions on characters is so bad the game is not worth playing. That is just beyond outrageous.
Also you still ignores the fact that list also serves as options for people who do not want to be a cleric of a cause. Are you actually reading what I am writing?

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. If you want to play a cleric but you don't want to worship a deity, follow its doctrine, and act subservient to its church, then deityless is really your only option. If the DM imposes a houserule that forces you to play in a way you don't want to, I really don't see why anyone should stick around.

In the cleric build mentioned above, if I was going a planar binding cleric, I would probably do something similar, grab lust and demonic domain since it's really good, but as you pointed out, in order to play that build with a deity you need to worship a demonic prince who will most likely order you to commit horrendous atrocities and force you to play a chaotic evil character. What happens when I don't want to play an evil character that prays to an evil demigod since I am very uncomfortable commiting evil acts even in a fictional tabletop game? Malacanthet is the queen of succubi, so what if the DM says Malacanthet orders my cleric to seduce a lord? I am not going to make my character prostitute herself with a random stranger all in order to be subservient to an evil being.

The rules say I can be a chaotic neutral cleric with demonic and lust domain, so I build my cleric to be a chaotic neutral, but if the DM creates a houserule so that I have play a chaotic evil cleric that has to regularly prostitute herself in game, screw that.

If a player prefers to worship a deity, that's his choice. It shouldn't be forced on me. Having deityless clerics in a game has no impact on players who do wish to worship a deity.

So to repeat, if the DM railroads you with a houserule to play a character you don't want to play, you get a new DM because this DM is not the right fit for you.

edit:I did read the part where you were suggesting the demon princes to clerics who don't want to be deityless. I just didn't respond to that. I responded to the part where you said some DMs won't allow deityless clerics, in which case I suggested you find a new DM.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying.
No, he doesn't understand why you're saying what you're saying. Neither do I, as it happens, because it doesn't seem to fit the discussion at all. Zamiel never said anything about the DM requiring anything. He said that if you, as player, do not want to be the cleric of a cause (for roleplaying reasons), then you are not without options, because there are infernal beings that do have affinity with those specific domains, and the DM could easily rule that their respective granted domain lists include Demon and Lust.

[sorcererlover]

No, he doesn't understand why you're saying what you're saying. Neither do I, as it happens, because it doesn't seem to fit the discussion at all. Zamiel never said anything about the DM requiring anything. He said that if you, as player, do not want to be the cleric of a cause (for roleplaying reasons), then you are not without options, because there are infernal beings that do have affinity with those specific domains, and the DM could easily rule that their respective granted domain lists include Demon and Lust.

Then I guess I misinterpreted what he was saying. My bad!

edit: I was just saying, even if house ruled demon princes fit the bill, why would anyone want to play a cleric of a demon prince and even consider it an option? o_o

[RoboEmperor]

If you do not want to be a cleric of a cause with that build Malcanthet, Pazuzu, Graz'zt and (if you are feeling ballsy) Shemi-Amorai could all give that combo by fluff and many of them give very few domains, especially compared with core gods givING close to 10, you may be able to convince a DM to let you have that combo. It's not RAW to be clear but the fluff matches perfectly.

DEMONIC DOMAIN
Demon Lords: Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Orcus,
Yeenoghu.

Malacanthet and Pazuzu do not have demonic domain. Don't know what Semi-Amorai is. In any case Graz'zt is your only option.

[ExLibrisMortis]

edit: I was just saying, even if house ruled demon princes fit the bill, why would anyone want to play a cleric of a demon prince and even consider it an option? o_o
Well, because it's the ultimate path to world domination! Nothing is as satisfying as sinking the Material Plane into the Abyss one slow step at the time, and being at the side of Malcanthet when the final Material wisp sinks into the pure chaos and entropy it so richly deserves.

Or, more simply: You're playing an [evil] campaign, and you want to be the most badass cleric to ever [evil]-up the world.


Malacanthet and Pazuzu do not have demonic domain. Don't know what Semi-Amorai is. In any case Graz'zt is your only option.
Read Zamiel's post. He knows. He is explicitly talking about houseruling Malcanthet and Pazuzu to grant the Demonic domain.

[RoboEmperor]

Read Zamiel's post. He knows. He is explicitly talking about houseruling Malcanthet and Pazuzu to grant the Demonic domain.

I think he meant house ruling the Lust domain in not Demonic domain. Demon princes and the Demonic domain are in the same book, where as Lust domain was dragon magazine that was later included in spell compendium and did not update domains for demon princes, so it makes more logical sense to think he meant house ruling in Lust domain, not both.

Look at us, lawyering what other posters said a few minutes ago XD

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think he meant house ruling the Lust domain in not Demonic domain. Demon princes and the Demonic domain are in the same book, where as Lust domain was dragon magazine that was later included in spell compendium and did not update domains for demon princes, so it makes more logical sense to think he meant house ruling in Lust domain, not both.

Look at us, rule-lawyering what other posters said a few minutes ago XD
Heh yeah. Probably not the best thing to keep up indefinitely. Anyhow, I read it as houseruling both Demonic and Lust, which is the more cooperative interpretation.

In general, I'd give the Demonic domain to any demon that grants spells, on general principle, just like all [good] deities grant the Good domain. I mean, it'd kind of suck to be that demon prince without the demonic domain.

[ZamielVanWeber]

DEMONIC DOMAIN
Demon Lords: Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Orcus,
Yeenoghu.

Malacanthet and Pazuzu do not have demonic domain. Don't know what Semi-Amorai is. In any case Graz'zt is your only option.

Shemi-Amorai. A deposed but powerful rival rival to Malacanthet. I managed to fix part of the autocorrect on her name but missed part (At one point is read Semi-Amoral, which is a hilarious error at least).

ExLibrisMortis is correct: I know that this combination is only available to clerics of a cause as read it after you posted. I did not want to bump the thread since it was kind of old and figured Google results would like ping this anyways so I made the comment that by fluff there are beings whose portfolios could justify that combination since I have seen games where clerics MUST worship and entity and I personally prefer worshipping a deity/power unless I specifically need not to so I figured that could happen to.

To answer sorcererlover's question about why: because they want to and will enjoy it. I can think of a reason for each of them to be a cleric of that demon and still reasonably be CN. IMHO being a demon worshipper and still being a valued, respected, and appreciated member of a party is fun.

On topic: This is a bit more of a stub than anything since I am on my phone but being a dragonborn (heart), getting the Shape Breath feat, and grabbing Use Magic Device at level one to eventually gain access to Animate Breath, Stunning Breath, and Blinding Breath. Prepare primarily defensive and healing spells, ideally ones that can affect multiple allies such as Recitation. The breath spells are arcane (hence UMD) but give you some brutal BFC that cleric normally is less than stellar on while still giving you that sweet team defensive strategy they are good for.