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CNFish
2017-08-30, 09:58 PM
Question, lets say a bandit is attacking a caravan the bandits are all firing off arrows at the caravan simply striking the caravan for the sake of rp. While the party attends to something on the inside of the caravan (the caravan is circled so the party is essentially in total cover. (Partial maybe?) Anyways after the bandits have fired are they visible to the party? In my mind, the party doesnt really know where the fire is coming from because they are taking care of some drama inside the caravan circle. Like i said in my opinion they dont know where the enemy is or how many are outside the caravan walls. But the players argue that once combat is initiated and they have fired theyre visible.

Thrudd
2017-08-30, 10:08 PM
So I'm guessing you had arrows rain down into the caravan circle where the PCs were, alerting them to an attack beginning, right? If the circle of wagons blocks their view of whatever is beyond, then they obviously don't know what is out there until they get into a position to see something. Characters don't automatically know where anything is, they need to be able to see it, or at least hear it to get a general direction.

Don't put anything on the table/board that the characters can't see.

InvisibleBison
2017-08-30, 10:13 PM
People generally don't know where other people are if there's an opaque, solid object (such as a wagon) between the two. And people don't magically learn the location of someone simply because the person shoots at them (at least, unless the rules give them that as an ability, I suppose - you didn't mention what system you're using.) So I'd say that the players don't know where exactly these bandit archers are. If they want to spot them, they should go look for them.

Also, why did you call this thread "Semantics?"? Your question doesn't seem to have anything to do with semantics.

KillianHawkeye
2017-08-30, 10:17 PM
The thing about total cover is that it generally works both ways. If the bandits cannot see what's happening in the middle of the wagons and they are just firing random shots into the area from the other side, then the PCs have to be bound by the same limitations unless they go to somewhere they can actually see out from. At this point, the PC and the bandits have a chance to spot each other like normal and the PC probably succeeds because it's usually difficult to stay hidden while attacking (although this may vary depending on which game and edition you are actually playing). Keep in mind that cover/concealment, poor light conditions, and distance could make up the difference here and give the bandits even odds on remaining unseen for a little longer, and also that line of sight blockers will probably limit the area the PC can observe significantly.

Anymage
2017-08-30, 10:37 PM
I'd be lenient, and say that if the PCs are going to get into combat soon, if they have any opportunity to take a quick peek, and if you plan on using a battle grid, they should have some idea. Largely because invisible monsters on a battle grid make the game tougher on you as the DM.

That said, so long as the arrows are fluff instead of practical combat right now (where they're just vaguely striking the carts), it's totally reasonable to say that someone has to at least move around so they can get an okay-ish look.

Slipperychicken
2017-08-31, 01:32 AM
It sounds ambiguous enough for the dice to decide. I say give them a perception roll; if they pass, they use sounds, the directions of arrows sticking out of the caravan, and other cues to intuit the rough locations and approximate number of the bandits firing on the caravan. The presence of several such cues could give advantage on the roll. If they fail, then they have to poke their heads out to find their assailants.


Also, use your common sense. If the players don't have line of sight to the bandits, then of course they don't see them. Being shot at doesn't give you the power to see through solid walls (not unless the shooting has opened a rather large hole in said wall...). If the players do have a plausible line-of-sight, then that could be something to roll for, or it could be an automatic pass depending on how well-concealed the bandits are. And like I implied before, you don't need to see something directly to make a good guess about where it is.

RazorChain
2017-08-31, 05:27 AM
Question, lets say a bandit is attacking a caravan the bandits are all firing off arrows at the caravan simply striking the caravan for the sake of rp. While the party attends to something on the inside of the caravan (the caravan is circled so the party is essentially in total cover. (Partial maybe?) Anyways after the bandits have fired are they visible to the party? In my mind, the party doesnt really know where the fire is coming from because they are taking care of some drama inside the caravan circle. Like i said in my opinion they dont know where the enemy is or how many are outside the caravan walls. But the players argue that once combat is initiated and they have fired theyre visible.


You are being a bad GM! The players obviously wish their characters have 360 degrees, X-ray vision and who are you to deny them that?!? The game is meant to be fun for them.
Next time hand them the layout to the dungeon marked with where the monsters are and don't forget to give them the stats as well. Of course if they think it's more fun they can for example add some extra loot...maybe a Holy Avenger, encyclopedia of spells or somesuch.

Darth Ultron
2017-08-31, 06:42 AM
This is a bit tricky.

Players will often demand a ''narrator/third person view'', like they are watching the game on TV.

DM's mostly go for the players only have their single character view of things.

However it can get awkward if the characters are doing one thing, and the DM tosses in ''oh, some arrows came from somewhere''. And while it is ''realistic'' it can get confusing fast as the players ''don't know'' about all sorts of ''stuff'' that is happening. And you will have one player that ''looks at the stuff'', then the DM has to say ''oh, you see bandits''. And then the DM must ''hide'' that information from the other players (like maybe pass a note), or do the silly ''ok, other players I want you all to pretend your characters don't know about the bandits." And some players can do the ''I don't know stuff'' very well.....but most can't. And you get the silly, ''oh my character does not run over that way towards the bandits that he does not know are there (wink wink). And then you have the problems of player Joe and Phil know about the bandits, but only Joes character Gom knows about the bandits, and players and characters of Julie and Sue both know nothing. And then Sue learns about the bandits, but her character Zelda still does not know...and then.

And there is not a good pay off as just confusing the players with ''stuff'' will often more just upset them at best. Few players are going to say the confusing game play was fun.

So it is often better to just do ''watching view'' and tell the players most of the stuff happening around. It's not ''realistic'', but it makes for a much smoother game play.

Lord Torath
2017-08-31, 11:26 AM
I would give the players a "your characters can tell the arrows are coming from somewhere to the northwest, because they're hitting the outer walls of the NW side of the caravan." Or "the arrows that hit the ground near you have their fletching pointing generally to the NW (but mostly up, as they are arcing down over the caravan into the ring in the center)."

So I would give them a general direction, but that's about it, until the PCs are out where they could see (and be seen by) the bandits.

I am unclear on whether the PCs are inside a wagon, or inside the central space formed by circling the wagons. In either case, though, the sound of the arrow impacts (and the twang of bow strings, depending on how close the archers are) and the sight of incoming arrows gives a general direction.

KillianHawkeye
2017-08-31, 03:11 PM
Players will often demand a ''narrator/third person view'', like they are watching the game on TV.

I don't think I have ever seen any such demand from either side of the screen. You may be over-generalizing based on your own experiences.

Also, I forgot to mention it in my previous post, but I fail to see how semantics are involved in this thread's question at all. Why is it called that?

Thrudd
2017-08-31, 03:43 PM
I think the semantics may be in the game definition of "attack" and what constitutes "hiding". In combat, when a hidden character makes an attack, they automatically come out of hiding, their location is revealed. So the players are probably saying "these guys can't still be hidden after attacking us, the rules say so". They aren't really "hidden", but completely obscured by a solid object that is blocking the characters' vision, would be my response to that - so the rule about being revealed from hiding does not apply.

The problem is, there are no rules that I know of for indirect missile fire - which is essentially what is going on - launching arrows or anything else into the air from behind total cover, without a particular target (if I understand properly the scenario) - there might not be a rules proviso for that. I think that the DM telling them "it wasn't really an attack" is being contradicted by their belief that shooting arrows is definitely an attack and therefore the attackers' location must be revealed (even though that makes no logical sense based on the location of their characters).

What is needed is for the players to stop looking at the rules and start seeing the world from their characters' perspective. As was suggested, the location and manner in which the arrows are landing could give the players some idea in what direction the shooters are. This should be pointed out by the DM, and then the players will need to move their characters into positions to see outside the wagon wall (or whatever it is) to get the exact location and be able to target someone. Anyone outside the wall should see where the attackers are, and it could be suggested to the players that they can call out to anyone out there who can see them for more information.

As the DM, you should encourage this attitude of listening to the narration and picturing what your character sees rather than thinking what rules apply at any given moment. The rules are the DM's concern. Just because the rules don't say exactly what happens in every situation does not mean those things can't happen - it just means the DM decides how they work, and common sense/logic applies above all else.