Elemental evil campaign + DM side quest shenanigans killed my character

[Cloud646]

So this may very well be the second character that I will have had to say goodbye to. The party makeup is me half-elf 10 hexblade warlock/ 1 favored soul sorcerer, and a snake lady( can't remember the race name) warlock/wizard/homebrew prestige class effective lvl 12, and a 'half-orc barbarian' who was the one who wanted us to go kill this cloud giant spellcaster. FYI, this was a DM made quest not part of the EE quest-line. We just finished a major battle, killing the cloud giant as well as 5 different demons that she summoned (by way of a giant summoning circle trap in her lair), resources all but depleted when it is discovered that the 'half-orc' chump we came with was actually a shape-shifting shadow dragon. So after all of that lead up...here is what I'm having difficulty with...what should I make as my new character in the inevitability of my friend and I being slaughtered here? This was already my second character of this campaign and I'm stuck on how to proceed. I know we will definitely want some revenge on this dragon thing, but we were also being stalked by a nest of vampires, so ideally something that would be good against both. Sorry if this is convoluted or if I didn't explain everything correctly, this is my first time posting here.

[KnotaGuru]

Devotion Paladin. Immune to fear (suck it dragons) immune to charm (suck it vampires) smite with radiant damage (suck it even more vampires & fiends). Lots of toughness & damage to keep fighting another day.

[Magikeeper]

So, to boil down the big block of text:

> DM had you do a quest for a traitorous quest giver that's about to murdalate your PCs?
>> Although, maybe you can talk your way out of getting murdered here? It sounds like this slaughter hasn't already happened, so maybe escape is a possibility?

> You mention this being your second PC dying, but your post doesn't really mention how or if there's a reason to suspect the DM keeps sending inescapable death at the party.


First, actually play out the dragon thing. Then perhaps talk with the DM regarding "How were we supposed to not be slaughtered here? I wouldn't want to have to assume every NPC is secretly an evil dragon, and outside of that level of extreme paranoia what could have saved us?"

[Cloud646]

So, to boil down the big block of text:

> DM had you do a quest for a traitorous quest giver that's about to murdalate your PCs?
>> Although, maybe you can talk your way out of getting murdered here? It sounds like this slaughter hasn't already happened, so maybe escape is a possibility?

> You mention this being your second PC dying, but your post doesn't really mention how or if there's a reason to suspect the DM keeps sending inescapable death at the party.


First, actually play out the dragon thing. Then perhaps talk with the DM regarding "How were we supposed to not be slaughtered here? I wouldn't want to have to assume every NPC is secretly an evil dragon, and outside of that level of extreme paranoia what could have saved us?"

It's not that he sends us to inescapable death , he just toes the line of what's too much for our two characters to handle, he's trying to essentially power level us I suppose, he's got some crazy interconnected quests for us that will eventually lead us to fighting on of the old gods, it's crazy, the payoffs are good though if we survive.
And yeah, the slaughter hasn't happened yet, so maybe we can talk our way out of it, I'm just trying to have a backup in-case we do die. And my last one died earlier in the campaign, around lvl 5 to a bunch of trolls.

[Cloud646]

Devotion Paladin. Immune to fear (suck it dragons) immune to charm (suck it vampires) smite with radiant damage (suck it even more vampires & fiends). Lots of toughness & damage to keep fighting another day.

Sounds decent, I'll have to look into that. I've never played a paladin before.

[Findulidas]

To be fair your dm have to be pretty hardcore in 5e for your characters to even die.

[Sigreid]

So, was the barbarian a DMPC that pressed for the giant fight? If so, you need a new rule 1....no DMPC will be allowed to "help".

[Maxilian]

To be fair your dm have to be pretty hardcore in 5e for your characters to even die.

Depends a lot on the lvl (and the equipment), after certain lvls, many mobs starting having effects that are way to painful (but i do agree that is not that easy to die -excluding the first 2 lvls where a mage that fall from his horse, could die-)

[Citan]

So this may very well be the second character that I will have had to say goodbye to. The party makeup is me half-elf 10 hexblade warlock/ 1 favored soul sorcerer, and a snake lady( can't remember the race name) warlock/wizard/homebrew prestige class effective lvl 12, and a 'half-orc barbarian' who was the one who wanted us to go kill this cloud giant spellcaster. FYI, this was a DM made quest not part of the EE quest-line. We just finished a major battle, killing the cloud giant as well as 5 different demons that she summoned (by way of a giant summoning circle trap in her lair), resources all but depleted when it is discovered that the 'half-orc' chump we came with was actually a shape-shifting shadow dragon. So after all of that lead up...here is what I'm having difficulty with...what should I make as my new character in the inevitability of my friend and I being slaughtered here? This was already my second character of this campaign and I'm stuck on how to proceed. I know we will definitely want some revenge on this dragon thing, but we were also being stalked by a nest of vampires, so ideally something that would be good against both. Sorry if this is convoluted or if I didn't explain everything correctly, this is my first time posting here.
Ok so... I made an extremely detailed post and my browser lost it all (was offline) so I'm too enraged and discouraged to detail it all once again.

IF your characters indeed die and there is no way to bring them back to life (or you don't want to)...

Just take Half-Elf Ancients Paladin 8 / Favored Soul Sorcerer 3 (for Cleric buffs including Sanctuary and Warding Bond) with Twin and Extended spells, starting 16 in CHA/CON/STR.
Grab Inspiring Leader and bump CHA.

The other take Cleric 1/2 (depending on whether Channel Divinity or not) for better armor and healing/buff spells, Abjuration Wizard the rest, starting 16 in INT and CON.
Grab Warcaster and either Healer feat or +2 INT.

Paladin uses Twin to buff both or keep two enemies in check.
Wizard uses and abuses all his spells, including Shield and Absorb Elements, Detect/Locate spells to prepare the encounter to your advantage (Magic Circle, Glyph of Warding etc).

Both have very high AC thanks to armor and potential shield (at least 18, Paladin should have ).
Both are very resilient against charm/frighten effects (Wisdom proficiency + racial advantage).
Use Warding Bond on Wizard if he can't stay near Paladin (which he should otherwise do for Auras), (Extended) Sanctuary to protect him while he sets up a Rope Trick / Magic Circle / Leomund's Tiny Hut / Teleportation Circle.
Both cover each other with Healing Words / Sanctuary as needed. Both can Feather Fall and Misty Step.

Paladin uses Moonbeam to reveal shapechanged Vampires, Twin Protection from Evil when you know you'll face them.

Paladin casts Extended Aid before a long rest to help for the next day and gives an Inspiring speech between each short rest. If Healer feat, Wizard thinks of using it also each short rest (as a side note, here is one reason to take Rope Trick and use it as often as possible -just be sure you are not seen when entering it or you will have a bad surprise XD. It can also be safely abused when inside a Leomund's Tiny Hut ;)).

Paladin abuses twin Phantasmal Force against powerful, isolated enemies, twin Compelled Duel or Command to keep enemies focused on him, twin Sanctuary when flee is the only option, Enhance Ability when it's useful (twinning when pertinent like Stealthing).

When you are facing overwhelming forces, Conjure Elemental of Wizard will help much rebalancing action economy (or at least being a meat shield while you flee), as well as Slow when you think chances of applying it are high enough.

Wizard should also use rituals as often as possible, keep a Phantom Steed at the ready, use Minor Illusion to create diversions or covers.

If you are afraid for healing, I'd suggest that Paladin takes his ninth level ASAP (for Extended Aura of Vitality) or Wizard grab Healer feat (with Rope Trick, illusions and the like you should manage to grab short rests).

Try to keep together so Wizard gets Aura benefits, at least until Wizard gets 14.

For mundane fights, have Paladin keep Bless or twinned Shield of Faith while Wizard uses whatever best concentration spell fits the situation.

Sorry if it seems a bit hazy to you, but really, I don't have the nerves to write back my nearly hour-long detailed strategy. ;)

[Cloud646]

Ok so... I made an extremely detailed post and my browser lost it all (was offline) so I'm too enraged and discouraged to detail it all once again.

IF your characters indeed die and there is no way to bring them back to life (or you don't want to)...

Just take Half-Elf Ancients Paladin 8 / Favored Soul Sorcerer 3 (for Cleric buffs including Sanctuary and Warding Bond) with Twin and Extended spells, starting 16 in CHA/CON/STR.
Grab Inspiring Leader and bump CHA.

The other take Cleric 1/2 (depending on whether Channel Divinity or not) for better armor and healing/buff spells, Abjuration Wizard the rest, starting 16 in INT and CON.
Grab Warcaster and either Healer feat or +2 INT.

Paladin uses Twin to buff both or keep two enemies in check.
Wizard uses and abuses all his spells, including Shield and Absorb Elements, Detect/Locate spells to prepare the encounter to your advantage (Magic Circle, Glyph of Warding etc).

Both have very high AC thanks to armor and potential shield (at least 18, Paladin should have ).
Both are very resilient against charm/frighten effects (Wisdom proficiency + racial advantage).
Use Warding Bond on Wizard if he can't stay near Paladin (which he should otherwise do for Auras), (Extended) Sanctuary to protect him while he sets up a Rope Trick / Magic Circle / Leomund's Tiny Hut / Teleportation Circle.
Both cover each other with Healing Words / Sanctuary as needed. Both can Feather Fall and Misty Step.

Paladin uses Moonbeam to reveal shapechanged Vampires, Twin Protection from Evil when you know you'll face them.

Paladin casts Extended Aid before a long rest to help for the next day and gives an Inspiring speech between each short rest. If Healer feat, Wizard thinks of using it also each short rest (as a side note, here is one reason to take Rope Trick and use it as often as possible -just be sure you are not seen when entering it or you will have a bad surprise XD. It can also be safely abused when inside a Leomund's Tiny Hut ;)).

Paladin abuses twin Phantasmal Force against powerful, isolated enemies, twin Compelled Duel or Command to keep enemies focused on him, twin Sanctuary when flee is the only option, Enhance Ability when it's useful (twinning when pertinent like Stealthing).

When you are facing overwhelming forces, Conjure Elemental of Wizard will help much rebalancing action economy (or at least being a meat shield while you flee), as well as Slow when you think chances of applying it are high enough.

Wizard should also use rituals as often as possible, keep a Phantom Steed at the ready, use Minor Illusion to create diversions or covers.

If you are afraid for healing, I'd suggest that Paladin takes his ninth level ASAP (for Extended Aura of Vitality) or Wizard grab Healer feat (with Rope Trick, illusions and the like you should manage to grab short rests).

Try to keep together so Wizard gets Aura benefits, at least until Wizard gets 14.

For mundane fights, have Paladin keep Bless or twinned Shield of Faith while Wizard uses whatever best concentration spell fits the situation.

Sorry if it seems a bit hazy to you, but really, I don't have the nerves to write back my nearly hour-long detailed strategy. ;)

Wow!! Thank you for all that, I'll definitely run this by my friend!!

[Chugger]

I hate to say this, but some DMs need a little "fear" instilled in them. I'll start with something that's probably too strong or too heavy-handed for your situation, but not knowing I kind of need to give you your options.

If it is just you two players, do a last minute cancellation of your next gaming session because you "decided to see a movie" instead. If he complains "oops, ___ happened, call you back" - and don't call back. If not this, send some sort of message from the players that you guys don't need to play in his world, that you can find other things to do. If he catches up with you guys and accuses you of anything, just shrug and say dude, what are you talking about? You didn't ask to come see the movie with us, of course we didn't not invite you- just a misunderstanding. If pressed yeah, maybe you need a little break from DnD. And maybe you do. It can be healthy - to break from it.

If he is sent a chilling message that you'd rather do something other than be at his table, he might self-correct. He might explode. He might...who knows. Use caution if he's shown signs in the past of being unstable. Most people can take this. And he may not deserve this hard approach.

Can you communicate with him? He is not "God" - he is a very human and very flawed author of your misery, and he's doing something wrong if you've been driven here to seek help. Good DMs don't do this. Maybe he thinks you guys love this and can't tell you don't. Maybe he's got a personality disorder, a mild one perhaps, and can't tell that you guys are not loving his offerings.

Do you have other tables in your area open to you?

Your ultimate bargaining chip is not in the game or doing something in the game but whether or not you even play.

Learn to manage your DM. Don't let him/her be a tyrant. Don't give them this kind of power. You don't have to.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I hate to say this, but some DMs need a little "fear" instilled in them. I'll start with something that's probably too strong or too heavy-handed for your situation, but not knowing I kind of need to give you your options.

If it is just you two players, do a last minute cancellation of your next gaming session because you "decided to see a movie" instead. If he complains "oops, ___ happened, call you back" - and don't call back. If not this, send some sort of message from the players that you guys don't need to play in his world, that you can find other things to do. If he catches up with you guys and accuses you of anything, just shrug and say dude, what are you talking about? You didn't ask to come see the movie with us, of course we didn't not invite you- just a misunderstanding. If pressed yeah, maybe you need a little break from DnD. And maybe you do. It can be healthy - to break from it.

If he is sent a chilling message that you'd rather do something other than be at his table, he might self-correct. He might explode. He might...who knows. Use caution if he's shown signs in the past of being unstable. Most people can take this. And he may not deserve this hard approach.

Can you communicate with him? He is not "God" - he is a very human and very flawed author of your misery, and he's doing something wrong if you've been driven here to seek help. Good DMs don't do this. Maybe he thinks you guys love this and can't tell you don't. Maybe he's got a personality disorder, a mild one perhaps, and can't tell that you guys are not loving his offerings.

Do you have other tables in your area open to you?

Your ultimate bargaining chip is not in the game or doing something in the game but whether or not you even play.

Learn to manage your DM. Don't let him/her be a tyrant. Don't give them this kind of power. You don't have to.
That's... really awful. I'd recommend never doing that. Ever.

If your DM is doing things you're not liking, say it. If it's so bad you don't want to play the game, say that too. Being passive aggressive and hoping they recognize exactly what you're being so passive aggressive about, especially when you're deliberately being obtuse about it? That's unhelpful, rude, and makes you a terrible person.

I've met all kinds of newbie DM's that can't understand why no one wants to play their games because of this sort of behavior. Believe it or not, they're usually trying their best and really don't understand that they're doing things that other people don't like. Then- surprise!- they never get any better, get paranoid, frustrated, and disillusioned, and often end up feeling betrayed by their so-called friends.

Because what you are suggesting is betrayal.

[Chugger]

It is awful. Yes, you probably shouldn't use tactics like that. In part I'm hoping to not so much to suggest the OP uses such tactics on his DM but to sort of jar loose his thinking. Is he stuck in a bad campaign? Is this a childhood friend he feels loyal to or some dude he met three months ago? I dunno.

DMs can get _very_ stubborn and stuck. A lot of DMs post here and talk about problem players. Well, there are problem DMs. You can't be Pollyanna-ish about the real world. Not saying anyone really is - but a lot of good players get "stuck" with bad DMs. And a lot of bad DMs remain bad DMs because people confuse them with "God" and never challenge them (I don't mean that literally, a lot of nice people get trapped in harmful relationships). There are myriad more effective ways than putting the big chill on your DM, but that's a "nuclear option" you hold in your hip pocket. Or just stop playing - move tables - try another game. A lot of times once people know what their options are they can think more clearly. Or I've messed up these guys horribly with a bad suggestion - yikes. OP, don't do what I say. Just think about it. Let it seep in. How bad is this situation - cuz I can't tell if it's really awful and you're giving us part of what's wrong or if it's just slightly broken.

The place to start, if this DM is at all rational, is by talking to them and stating what's wrong. Suggest taking a week or two off, if they don't take you seriously. Again I have no idea what's going on. Some of us live in bubbles - not meaning to sound critical - but we're really fortunate to be surrounded by incredibly nice people. Others of us ... real life can be tough. You have options. And mostly don't let me talk you or anyone into doing anything totally inappropriate or "wrong" - again I'm clearly not seeing what is really going on here - I have a few sentences and clues and that's not enough - but what I'm really getting at is the answer to your problem may not be "better tactics" or "such and forth kind of character to solve the current problem" (who will only be TPK'd at the next session) - the solution might be meta in nature - outside the game - i.e. figuring out whether this DM is worth keeping and if he can adjust what's wrong. That's all.

[Waterdeep Merch]

It is awful. Yes, you probably shouldn't use tactics like that. In part I'm hoping to not so much to suggest the OP uses such tactics on his DM but to sort of jar loose his thinking. Is he stuck in a bad campaign? Is this a childhood friend he feels loyal to or some dude he met three months ago? I dunno.

DMs can get _very_ stubborn and stuck. A lot of DMs post here and talk about problem players. Well, there are problem DMs. You can't be Pollyanna-ish about the real world. Not saying anyone really is - but a lot of good players get "stuck" with bad DMs. And a lot of bad DMs remain bad DMs because people confuse them with "God" and never challenge them (I don't mean that literally, a lot of nice people get trapped in harmful relationships). There are myriad more effective ways than putting the big chill on your DM, but that's a "nuclear option" you hold in your hip pocket. Or just stop playing - move tables - try another game. A lot of times once people know what their options are they can think more clearly. Or I've messed up these guys horribly with a bad suggestion - yikes. OP, don't do what I say. Just think about it. Let it seep in. How bad is this situation - cuz I can't tell if it's really awful and you're giving us part of what's wrong or if it's just slightly broken.

The place to start, if this DM is at all rational, is by talking to them and stating what's wrong. Suggest taking a week or two off, if they don't take you seriously. Again I have no idea what's going on. Some of us live in bubbles - not meaning to sound critical - but we're really fortunate to be surrounded by incredibly nice people. Others of us ... real life can be tough. You have options. And mostly don't let me talk you or anyone into doing anything totally inappropriate or "wrong" - again I'm clearly not seeing what is really going on here - I have a few sentences and clues and that's not enough - but what I'm really getting at is the answer to your problem may not be "better tactics" or "such and forth kind of character to solve the current problem" (who will only be TPK'd at the next session) - the solution might be meta in nature - outside the game - i.e. figuring out whether this DM is worth keeping and if he can adjust what's wrong. That's all.
I can agree with all that. I've left tables for less, but not until after I tried to talk with the DM.

Once, it caused the DM to reconsider a few of his choices after I made the call to abandon his game. After a single session he went right back to doing the things that irritated me, so I left again, never to return. We remained friends, however, because while we may have disagreed, we both understood why.

It won't always end that way, but if they were a real friend it ought to. And if they weren't, who cares?

[Cloud646]

Wow, that went a different route than expected. He's actually a really good dm, it's just his encounters can get a little crazy. The purpose of this post was to try and get some class combo ideas for the next character I make that could handle a vampire fight as well as a shadow dragon fight (whose cr level is 19 we just found out tonight) in the event that we ended up getting slaughtered as I've already exhausted the two character ideas I had (still learning the classes and combos).which btw we survived, we are just her minions now lol.

[BillyBobShorton]

Learn to manage your DM. Don't let him/her be a tyrant. Don't give them this kind of power. You don't have to.

This. Your DM is either being a d*ck or is inadequate and can't scale or guage encounters. Players should NEVER EVER EVER feel like they may be helplessly screwed w/o hope going into a session. That's just a DM missing the point.

I say this a lot: IT'S NOT 1978 ANYMORE. KILLER DM'ing IS BAAAAAD DMing.

[Kane0]

Some people happen to enjoy that kind of thing. I'd actually like my DM to be a bit more lethal maybe that way some of the other players would start taking things a bit more seriously...

[BillyBobShorton]

Some people happen to enjoy that kind of thing. I'd actually like my DM to be a bit more lethal maybe that way some of the other players would start taking things a bit more seriously...
Dangerous encounters or NPC reactions to the party is one thing. Setting ppl up to repeatedly fail is not fun. If you think you'd enjoy that kind of game, have at it. Careful what you wish for, though...But most ppl play D&D to build a story and epic character who has overcome incredible monsters and quests. Not to let some guy just put them in unwinnable situations or crap all over the time they spent making a character because he wants to play god.

[Cloud646]

Guys, truly this has gotten a fair bit off base and if I knew how to delete this initial post, i would. It really had nothing to do with the dm and everything to do with picking the brains of more experienced d&d'ers about good class combos for combating the listed legendary monsters.