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Tyger
2007-08-11, 07:59 PM
OK, after today's game, our party is shy its wizard, that'd be my character. He was more a control wizard than a blaster (though he pulled out the fireballs from time to time) and was just getting into the crafting side fo things, as our DM is pretty shy with the loot. I'm waffling on what to play now, and I am really quite happy to play almost any kind of character. Some of my most memorable and favorite characters have been characters that were randomly generated, or ones that I took only to fill a niche in the party.

So, now the question becomes, as noted in the title, what do you think this party is in deepest need of. At the moment, we're playing the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft module, but the game will continue on beyond that. The character are all level 9ish, and this new character will likely start at level 8.

The party composition is:

(1) A human monk / psychic warrior. Heavy dex based character, using TWF (longsword and fist). He's swinging his weapons a lot, but not hitting often and when he does, he's not doing too much damage (due to the huge TWF penalties he's sporting and lack of optimization). He's having a blast though, so its all good.

(2) A lycanthrope (wolf) ranger, also TWFing. He hits a lot more often, due to the ranger TWF feats, and does a bit more damage, due to the quality of his weapons. Again, not overly optimized though, but again, having fun (though the were-wolf part is causing him some grief, mostly due to OOC communication difficulties with the DM though, IMNSHO).

(3) An elven scout. Dex based skirmisher. Decent stealth (though not maxed out) and OK skirmish damage, against things that can be crited anyway. Not too optimized, but the player has discovered the joy of the WotC optimization boards, so that will likely change.

(4) A human Knight. He's the cohort of the scout, so only level 6 at the moment.

(5) A human cleric (war & healing domains). Unfortunately, the player isn't available all the time, so we don't have access to his healings as often as we'd like. He hasn't actually played in a few levels (he was overseas for the last 3 months) so hard to say what he'll be like now that he's back.

There you have it. Like I said, I am looking more for what the party needs than anything else. The holes that we've noticed are
a) a big time damage dealer
b) a decent and reliable healer
c) and of course, with the death of the wizard... arcane spells.

So? Any thoughts? My initial ideas were:

1) A crusader. Can fill the role of big time damage dealer and healer all in one fell swoop.
2) A beguiler / shadowcraft mage. Give us back some arcane might, and is flavour-wise different enough from what just died.
3) An artificer. Fills the arcane spell hole, can sub as a great blaster type, and can make those tasty magic items for us too.
4) A rogue. Super sneaky we don't have. Something like a dark-templated whisper gnome rogue. Big time backstab... :)

Fishies
2007-08-11, 08:14 PM
Can't go wrong with a bard...

Zincorium
2007-08-11, 08:18 PM
Artificer would look to be the best way to cover multiple roles well.

In-combat healing is generally not worth doing, and wands/custom items of cure light wounds can get a lot of bang for the buck in healing once the battle is done. The fact that infusions can duplicate a lot of utility spells means that if you can't be sneaky, you can help the ranger (who should at least have the basics available) to do his job better.

Also, like you said, the party is getting little in the way of loot. Considering that artificers can cannibalize magic items to fuel more, and get a pool of bonus experience just for crafting, you can be a lot more efficient with what you do get.

Starsinger
2007-08-11, 08:18 PM
The Generic Spellcaster class from Unearthed Arcana/ the SRD. Take the kind of spells you'll need either blasting/healing or control/healing. That seems the best bet to me.

TheLogman
2007-08-11, 08:27 PM
Rogue, Sneak Attack can hurt, plus UMD lets you use Wands of CLW, and Blaster Spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-11, 08:30 PM
Sorcerer!

There's two options to take to give you good healing abilities. 1) Blow a feat to get access to one domain of spells. Choose the Healing domain. 2) Trade out your familiar for access to one domain of spells. Choose healing domain. This gets you some healing, but they come out of your Spells Known. They also let you use them in wands and such, which is also very benificial.

My suggestion: If you're wanting a dedicated caster, go Sorc5/Mage of the Arcane Order 4 then from there look at War Weaver for group buffing or Incantatrix for metamgic goodness. End up with Archmage for Arcane Reach, perhaps Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shaping if you are wanting to do some blasting.

Or

If you're wanting someone who can take a hit and dish it out...

Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/Abjurant Champion5...

This is a supremely powerful 'gish' build. You loose two caster levels. In exchange, you can run around in plain Mithral Chain Shirt with no ASF, Cha to saves (which happens to be your casting stat), you can use various Cure items from being a paladin, and you have some highly impressive BAB, moreso than the monk/psiwar anyways. I'd suggest picking up battlefield control stuff and 'save or suck', with a few choice blasting spells thrown in for good measure. Don't bother picking up a shield, use a one-handed weapon and your other hand free for somatic components. The Shield spell will be much better, particularly with all the bonuses you get from Abjurant Champion.

Thurbane
2007-08-11, 08:38 PM
I'd go with the Battle Sorcerer variant from UA.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 08:45 PM
You could go with Favored Soul, to cover the healy bits when you need to, and can function in melee.

You could go with Battle Sorceror, with the CCham Variant, which'd net you domain access. You'd be able to function as a tier-two combattant with magical tricks, and potentially even heal should you need to.

You could go with Rogue/Swashbuckler, with the Daring Outlaw feat, and be a finesse frontliner.

However, with the loss of your spellcasting, your party is actually remarkably magicless. I would recommend going something with casting. I would actually say that your best option would be to be a wand-wielding blaster Artificier.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-11, 08:52 PM
Well, you've got three Combatants, a sneak, and a sometimes-Cleric.

Party Balance would suggest an Arcanist (it's the only missing role). For that, a Human Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-3 would do well (it's a nice combo, really it is). Take the spells you'll use a lot as Sorcerer spells known, Call the utility spell of the day.
Feats: 1: Arcane Preparation (so you can Prepare and cast arcane spells)
Human Bonus: Cooperative Metamagic (required for Mage of the Arcane Order)
3: Any metamagic feat (required for Mage of the Arcane Order). If you were building the character from 1-20, I'd suggest Extend Spell. As is, you won't need it much, so pick a fun metmagic feat - Empower, perhaps, or Reach Spell.
6: Whatever you like. If you're going for another PrC, start taking required feats here.

A Wizard-5/Mindbender-2/Loremaster-X would also work well - Loremaster gives Use Magic Device as a class skill, so you can use wands of Cure Light to help heal the party.

A Bard would go well with the party - that Bardic Music will really increase the combat ability of your three Combatants and the sneak (Inspire Courage's simple +2 attack/damage will likely result in you being responsible for the most damage of any member of the party, by way of converting misses to hits; when you've got four characters that hit on a 15, changing them over to hit on a 13 moves them from 6 good die results to 8 good die results - increasing their damage output by a full 3rd - before the damage bonus). As an added bonus, the Bard can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds without issues, as Cure Light Wounds is on the Bard's class spell list.

HydwenPrydain
2007-08-11, 09:23 PM
I'd go Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 2/(virtuoso 1 next level). Grab the item in the MIC that increases your bard level for courage by 4, Song of the Heart, and Inspirational boost as one of your bard spells known, so your inspire will be +4 most of the time, or at least +3.

Then, grab melodic casting, lyric spell, and extra music (since you can burn your music uses to either cast more spells or increase your save DCs by 2, or perform effects). Pick up some nice enchantment and illusion spells, and you'll be a fine caster, and inspire courage for a ton. Take 1 more level of virtuoso, then 2 levels of sublime chord, then 8 more virtuoso. You'll end up with 9th level spells (some of which are at lower spell levels than a wizard since they're on the bard spell list, i.e., Otto's Irresistable Dance) AND all kinds of neat bard abilities.

Tyger
2007-08-11, 09:26 PM
Hmmm... never thought of the Bard... that could be a nice boost to the group. And while all the arcane caster suggestions are great, trying to get away from what I just played a bit... he was a Wizard 7 / Mage of the Arcane Order 2. The need for some arcane oomph is certainly there, but a sorcerer is just a tad too close to the old character for comfort. At least for the DMs comfort.

Bard though... hmmm... ideas....

UserClone
2007-08-11, 10:06 PM
I once played a very successful bard with a vow of nonviolence (mostly due to his 7 CON -after dumping my 4th-level point in it) who at 7th level could do fun things like grease the enemies' swords (DC 19) or fascinate at a DC minimum of 22, etc. He was a hoot!

That being said, I've personally been wanting to try a tiefling sorcerer6-or-wizard5/Knight Phantom2(or 3, respectively).

You could also consider a Beguiler6/Mindbender1/Beguiler1. It's hard to beat 100' of telepathy for your mind-affecting spells to work through, not to mention an unnamed +6 bonus on a social skill of your choice (read:Bluff), and best of all, it increases your spellcasting level, so you delay your Adaptive Learning ability until you can use it on 4th-level spells like Shadow Conjuration, an extremely utilitarian spell, esp. if you take SF/GSF:Illusion.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-08-11, 10:21 PM
A beguiler.

I refuse to even read this thread. That's what every party needs. I win the interblag.

skywalker
2007-08-11, 10:28 PM
A beguiler.

I refuse to even read this thread. That's what every party needs. I win the interblag.


While your beguiler FTW is admirable, he's already said the sorc is too close to wizard(I don't like the DM already) which makes me wonder about other things.

I agree with Cockroach and Fax, Beguiler or Artificer, although, when you said "The DM's pretty stingy with loot"(Dislike him/her even more) I immediately thought artificer. Go artificer, you'll be everyone's best friend for giving out your own loot.

Vonriel
2007-08-11, 10:36 PM
A quick note: If you do go artificer and start making magic items, and the DM is pretty stingy with the loot, he may potentially do one of two unwanted things. He'll either tone back the already rare bits of loot even more, or he may try and have you keep from spreading about too much magical goodness. He may do neither, as well, but I'd still be prepared for something like this happening.

Tyger
2007-08-11, 10:45 PM
What's the thought on a Beguiler 10 / Fatespinner 5 / Shadowcraft Mage 5?

The DM has a houserule about PrCs, once you start one, you can not take another until you finish that PrCs leveling. So the character could go Beguiler 7, Fatespinner 1, Beguiler 1, Fatespinner 4, Shadowcraft mage 5, Beguiler 2.

Is this a foolish build? I know it means the lose of one caster level (the fatespinner 5) but at the end of the day, that might not be too bad.

I think this helps out in a big way with the arcane problems we're going to have, but is flavourish different enough from the wizard to satisfy both the DM and myself. Sort of a confidence trickster / face character.

EDIT: Forgot about the Fatespinner pre-req of level 4 spells, so that build is out. Dang.

Solo
2007-08-11, 10:50 PM
Cleric with the Magic domain?
Can cover
a) a big time damage dealer
b) a decent and reliable healer

And (not well)

c) and of course, with the death of the wizard... arcane spells.

bingo_bob
2007-08-11, 10:55 PM
I'd vote Artificer. They're versatile, they fill your arcanist role (which really is the biggest hole, IMHO), slide quite easily into the blaster role, if you're smart with your items, and can heal effectively too.


Whatever you choose, your biggest oppurtunity here is to sync up your character. That is, remake your character so that you no longer have those little disparate parts that don't add up to anything. You know, feats that were useful for a level or two, and seemed like a good idea at the time, that kind of stuff.

More Artificer advice: Be VERY. VERY. VERY careful with what you choose for equipment. This is perhaps the one chance that you're going to get to choose exactly what you want, more or less free of DM fiat. Eternal Wands are a great choice for some basic offensive spells, as well as utility spells that you use semi-regularly. Remember, a lot of your combat ability is going to come from items, so choose ones that will emphasize your role. Wands period are really what you'll be using most of the time. Remember that.

woc33
2007-08-12, 02:16 AM
I think you should take a druid(zilla). that should cover both damage dealing and off-healing, in addition to some utility.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-12, 02:38 AM
I would suggest one of three things:

A bard/lyric thaumaturge/sublime chord. You would have good arcane spells (via the classes) and can buff the party to being a bit better at what they do. You also have some healing

Factotum/Chameleon. This makes you the ultmate jack of all trades. Even straight factotum isn't bad.

Druid. You can control, deal damage, and heal. You will also probably be a better fighter than your entire group.

Draz74
2007-08-12, 02:43 AM
Yeah, it sounds like your party has enough roles not covered that you'd be smart to go with a "jack of all trades" class. I recommend Binder. Can be a decent blaster one day, decent healer the next, whatever. Not too weak, but also not so strong that it will make your less-optimized companions cry with jealousy.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-08-12, 03:35 AM
Simply because this has been running around in my head for a wee bit:

Swashbuckler/Exotic Weapon Master.

Use Kamas and Two Weapon Fighting.
pwn.
~~~

Of course, since you laready have plenty of (pretty bad, but nontheless there) TWF'ers in your group, I'm going to parrot everyone and say "Something Arcane"
*shudder*
And now, I'm forced to say "Sorceror" out of principle. (I'm the guy who doesn't like playing arcane classes, sue me, I have no access to fun little varients to them.)

Or, if you want an arcane caster thats slightly less revoulting than a full caster. Go Bard.
Bards pwn.

lord_khaine
2007-08-12, 04:14 AM
im not sure a druid is the best idea, simply because it sounds like it could easely outshine the entire party without any real optimisation.

that said, i have allways found psion a fun class to play, and if you pick the right powers you can do a little healing on the side, when the cleric isnt around.

Iku Rex
2007-08-12, 04:24 AM
Strongly themed sorcerer or wizard. (Fire, cold, earth, air, weather, "invisible forcefields", shapeshifter, enchanter, summoner, etc.) I know what you said, but characters are not defined by their class. Two sorcerers can be far more different than, say, a fighter and a rogue. You could make the character even more unique by picking an unusual race.

Archer. If the scout is archery-based you may outshine him, but it would provide some handy ranged firepower to a blaster-less party.

Warlock blaster. Somewhat different from wizard and sorcerer.

Leon
2007-08-12, 09:41 AM
Another some time healer, so that you have healing when the Main healer is not present and when he is you can focus on other aspects

I recommend Druid for the nice array of spells that can be accesed for Control and Damage aspects aswell as boosting spells, Also i'd take a Variant to do something else with your Wildshape (Shapeshift's good or one of the other's, or just plain use Wildfeats on its uses) and a Companion can be handy pending your choice of animal on what role it fills

Saph
2007-08-12, 10:00 AM
So, you want damage, healing, and arcane spells, but don't want to play a wiz or sorcerer.

The two obvious choices are Bard or Druid. A Bard's Inspire Courage would be really really helpful with the amount of attacks your TWFing friends do. Wands of CLW would do for the healing, and with spells like Glitterdust, Alter Self, and Haste, you can be a decent support caster. Problem: no damage. The Lyric Thaumaturge PRC from Complete Mage would help with that.

Druid handles damage and healing easily. They're not really arcane casters, but can do a few of the same things (flight, armour buffing, climbing, scrying, direct damage). You also get a nice tanky animal companion.

Overall I'd say Druid is probably the best choice - an Artificer would work too, but they're quite similar to wizards in many ways, which you said you wanted to avoid.

What happened to your wizard, by the way?

- Saph

prufock
2007-08-12, 10:57 AM
I'd say a rogue. Pump your UMD skill so you can use wands for both healing and blasting, and (of course) grab a Ring of Invisibility (or, better yet, a few wands of Greater Invisibility) so you can pile on the sneak attack damage.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-12, 11:03 AM
The broken choice: Artificer. It crafts, it does DD (Blastificer!), it does arcane and divine casting (scrolls/wands/staffs). It's a great addition, as it covers every role you suggest.

Tyger
2007-08-12, 01:35 PM
What happened to your wizard, by the way?

- Saph

Well, I got taken down to -2 with an area effect spell.

In Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, when you put the three relics of the saints together, a nasty mo-fo of a spirit forms, which does this cone attack for about 10-12d8... will save for half. Mage made two of them, and failed the third. Damned thing just would not die. Granted, it had DR 10/who knows, and our damage dealers weren't getting in many big hits and my spells kept sucking up its SR... c'est la vie.

Then my familiar, sitting on my shoulder, failed his save on the same spell. He was only at 4 HP at the time (long story, mostly involving my own incompetence) and he instantly died. His death cost me a level (I was only just at level 9) and the resulting loss of 8 HP took me to -10. Boom. Dead.

Saph
2007-08-12, 01:41 PM
Ouch. That's the first time I've heard of a familiar bomb killing a character.

I'm lucky the DMs in our group can never be bothered to keep track of familiars except when they're doing something.

- Saph

Tyger
2007-08-12, 01:56 PM
Ouch. That's the first time I've heard of a familiar bomb killing a character.

I'm lucky the DMs in our group can never be bothered to keep track of familiars except when they're doing something.

- Saph

Yeah, it sucked. Big time. Our DM started making an issue of my familiar when he was used for a couple of Baleful Transposition spells... handy for moving allies around, or even for bouncing one enemy far enough away that he's not a threat for a round or two. And the raven was great at flying to area A and landing, then flying straight up when he was teleported to the new location, taking him out of danger again. This time, I just forgot to have him fly away after we got hit by the first wave of that spell. My own fault really.

Granted, now I get to try something new and interesting!

Clove
2007-08-12, 03:35 PM
Yeah, it sucked. Big time. Our DM started making an issue of my familiar when he was used for a couple of Baleful Transposition spells... handy for moving allies around, or even for bouncing one enemy far enough away that he's not a threat for a round or two. And the raven was great at flying to area A and landing, then flying straight up when he was teleported to the new location, taking him out of danger again. This time, I just forgot to have him fly away after we got hit by the first wave of that spell. My own fault really.

Granted, now I get to try something new and interesting!


I usually go with a familiar that gives a nice bonus to my character that doesn't require the familiar to endanger itself. Toad used to be best, now I usually like the rat (+2 Fort save) or maybe a weasal (+2 Reflex save).

I am usually keeping an eye or for a good home for my familiar, like a good church that is friendly with the party or a college of wizardry or something. Even though this means giving up the bonus Alertness feat I feel safer. If my familiar is with me I never utilize him. Out of sight, out of mind, out of danger. :smalltongue:

Bard is looking like an interesting choice for this party. Singing to make misses hits, some Arcane utility, some healing in desperate emergencies, and you could be the party diplomat since it looks like no one has that role either.

Hallavast
2007-08-12, 03:44 PM
I'd also have to say either bard or a buff happy mage. Something to make your fighter types hit more is what you need in addition to the utility that a bard or a mage would bring.