Glaive-wielding disruptive Tank Cleric - can this work?

[Lilio]

Hello everyone,

Let's start this off by saying that while I have quite a few sessions of 5e under my belt, I have yet to try anything that's not a cookie-cutter build. The types of builds that are effective but rather limited. EBing foes into oblivion gets stale after a while...

Anyway, that is why I wanted to try something different this time. I am playing in a West marches setting, with little to no limitations regarding character creation and development.

I rolled very decent stats, decided on playing a Tempest cleric and choose a bronze dragonborn as my race. I also decided to roll for starting gold.

after racial bonus my ability scores are:
17 str
13 dex
16 con
12 int
18 wis
9 Cha

And I bought a glaive and a chain mail as my starting equipment. (As well as of course an explorers pack and my holy symbol, plus some additional stuff)

Also, yes I know, dex is objectively better than str, but I wanted my glaive, okay?


Anyway, I am pretty sure the first few levels my good rolls will allow my to stay in the frontlines a bit to deal some damage, but since the Playerbase is heavily dominated by fighters, paladins and rogues, I guess I will get outscaled really fast.

And I really don't want to stay in the background to heal and buff. (Else I would have chosen live domain)

So I would love to try more of an cc-offtank style of play.
I intend to take polearm-mastery at lvl 4, for the nice reaction and the 'free' bonus action.

After that, I am not sure what to do.

First idea had been speccing into fighter, for great weapon mastery, some self heal and action sure, as well as battlemaster maneuvers. Goading, distracting, maneuvering, disarming and tripping attacks all seem viable.
At lvl 4 I am not to sure what to opt for. Getting maxed wis is not too important for this build I guess, but I would love to get my strength to 18. I could get a feat for that, but I feel like I'd be stuck with taking athlete, since tavern brawler and resilient are non-options and I am not sure heavy armour master is relevant at this level (or am I wrong?).

I might take fighter lvl 5, for the extra attack.

All in all, this would result in a more physical cleric with better hit dice, but kinda stunted magic.

The other idea I had was speccing into druid.
Taking circle of the land Arctic gives me 2 free cc spells at lvl 3 - and in general a huge amount of druid spells fit right into what I want to do with my character.
Same spellcasting modifier and non-hindered spellslot progression are a huge plus. And getting back 1 or 2 spellslots during short rest is rather nice, too.

But I fear it would leave me rather squishy, especially if I go for capping wis with my lvl 4 ASI, which I think would be the smartest thing to do.

I guess I could even look into Ranger for a mix out of both... Hm.

Ah, now I feel kinda bad for making you read all of my ramblings.
Anyway, do you think this could work? Any suggestions (that refrain from telling me to remake my character, please? Let me have that little bit of fluff.)?

Thank you in advance!

[Crgaston]

I don't think you want to MC into fighter with this build. Your money is going to be the PM/Sentinel+ Spirit Guardians combo. PM at 4th, Sentinel at 8th, and either HAM, Warcaster or +1 str/dex at 12.

PAM will give you a 2nd attack and you'll be getting 1d8 bonus damage from cleric Divine Strike feature at L8. With PAM + Sentinel, you can maximize AoO's to keep enemies inside your Spirit Guardians area of effect.

There are several ways to prioritize the feat order, but I won't get into those on my phone :)

[Corran]

I'd go at least up to level 9 without delay, and I would take resilient CON and an ASI +1 str/ +1 con at levels 4 and 8.

You've got some good conentration spell in spirit guardians, that will play well with your many melee allies, so making your concentration checks will be important if you aim to use it (which is pretty much a must, imo) while you are in melee. So resilient con at 4 seems a good choice. Carrying on to get more and higher spells and spell slots, as well as hitting level 8 to get that ASI that will raise both your str and constitution seems very logical as well. And if you are at level 8, you cant really stop there, you have to get the next level to get 5th level spells (many good spells in there).
Of course, you can always change the order of resilient con and the ASI, though in that case you might want to hold off on spirit guardians and use bless a lot more often, at least until you get resilient at level 8 (IMO you should get resilient first though, the ASI can wait).

You have spiritual weapon for some bonus action damage, to keep your dpr respectable, so PAM can wait (if you really want to take it; I probably wouldn't), after you have boosed your concentration and raised your stats (at levels 4 and 8).

ps: If you are aiming for a PAM + sentinel build, or at least if you are aiming for sentinel, make sure to talk it with your teammates, to avoid potential problems if both you and another ally pick it up (sentinel has some restrictions regarding multiple sentinel allies).

[Lilio]

I don't think you want to MC into fighter with this build. Your money is going to be the PM/Sentinel+ Spirit Guardians combo. PM at 4th, Sentinel at 8th, and either HAM, Warcaster or +1 str/dex at 12.

PAM will give you a 2nd attack and you'll be getting 1d8 bonus damage from cleric Divine Strike feature at L8. With PAM + Sentinel, you can maximize AoO's to keep enemies inside your Spirit Guardians area of effect.

There are several ways to prioritize the feat order, but I won't get into those on my phone :)

Well yes, PM/Sentinel + spirit guardian is indeed a good combo. I agree with you there. I still would love to have other means for cc next to it. Hence the plans to MC.

Do you think druid would be a good choice? It would push the availability of the full combo back 1 level, unless I wait until level 9 to start speccing into it.

[Lilio]

I'd go at least up to level 9 without delay, and I would take resilient CON and an ASI +1 str/ +1 con at levels 4 and 8.

You've got some good conentration spell in spirit guardians, that will play well with your many melee allies, so making your concentration checks will be important if you aim to use it (which is pretty much a must, imo) while you are in melee. So resilient con at 4 seems a good choice. Carrying on to get more and higher spells and spell slots, as well as hitting level 8 to get that ASI that will raise both your str and constitution seems very logical as well. And if you are at level 8, you cant really stop there, you have to get the next level to get 5th level spells (many good spells in there).
Of course, you can always change the order of resilient con and the ASI, though in that case you might want to hold off on spirit guardians and use bless a lot more often, at least until you get resilient at level 8 (IMO you should get resilient first though, the ASI can wait).

You have spiritual weapon for some bonus action damage, to keep your dpr respectable, so PAM can wait (if you really want to take it; I probably wouldn't), after you have boosed your concentration and raised your stats (at levels 4 and 8).

ps: If you are aiming for a PAM + sentinel build, or at least if you are aiming for sentinel, make sure to talk it with your teammates, to avoid potential problems if both you and another ally pick it up (sentinel has some restrictions regarding multiple sentinel allies).

I see where you come from, and surely this build would be very effective, but I would prefer something with a few more ways to disable enemies (as well as a bit more flavour regarding my choice of weapon)
But thank you for your suggestion!

Talking to teammates about the sentinel fear is a bit complicated, as we have currently like 30 players and will play in changing groups. But I will make sure to keep it in mind.

[PeteNutButter]

Well yes, PM/Sentinel + spirit guardian is indeed a good combo. I agree with you there. I still would love to have other means for cc next to it. Hence the plans to MC.

Do you think druid would be a good choice? It would push the availability of the full combo back 1 level, unless I wait until level 9 to start speccing into it.

Druid typically comes with the drawback of not allowing the use of metal armor. I'd avoid it, unless your DM is totally cool with you rocking metal plate mail. Even so, it is most certainly worse than going up in cleric more.

Ranger is a better option if you are set on being more martially focused. It would at least grant half-casting slots and potentially extra attack. Cleric 5/Ranger 5 is a solid character by level 10.

[Lilio]

Oh, I actually didn't know that the armour restriction also applies if I multiclass. Ugh. Way to destroy all my plans.

I do not really care that much about being martial, I just want some nice disruptive/disabling choices next to spirit guardian and eventually sentinel =\

[ZorroGames]

A Dragonborn outscaled? Ridiculous!

Just passing through - rimshot.

[Paeleus]

The point on BA economy competition between PAM vs. Spiritual Weapon is a good point, but having the option to choose between the two and the ability to have a free BA attack when a spell slot not available or non-optimal is a strength in my opinion.

Personally, I am a fan of either a 2 level Fighter dip or a 3 level Fighter dip for Action Surge and tasty BM maneuvers. The fighting style should be Defense. GWF will grant a slightly higher average for weapon damage, but your main damage should be coming from Spirit Gaurdians, Divine Strike, Spirtual Weapon, and the like (i.e. Magical damage) which GWF does nothing for.

With that in mind, might I suggest Hunter Ranger? It grants a boot-leg second attack, that in conjunction with Sentinel, could greatly improve your CC capabilities. Add in Spelless Ranger variant (if legal, of course) and you get to nab 2 BM maneuvers. If not legal, Hunter's Mark isn't a bad damage boost (which incidentally would make GWF much more attractive since you could reroll that HM damage die as well), tho it does require concentration. But Defense is best and, lo and behold, Ranger grants that at 2nd level.

[poolio]

Tempest is goodball on their own, multiclassing would only slow the powerful spells from coming online sooner, call lighting is a fantastic go to whenever you're outside, and I'd take spell sniper and pick up booming blade (you learn one cantrip as part of the feat) the extra damage potential from that will out perform great weapon master by far, by level 5 you'll be able to attack an enemy from 10ft away with BB doing 1d10+1d8+str and sense you're already 10ft away you can move away and not trigger an attack of opportunity, and on the enemies turn it'll usually have to come up to you to retaliate which will trigger BB second effect causing 2d8 more damage, PAM can wait as well, it's not super necessary for this but the extra attack attempts are okay.

[Talionis]

Tempest is good all on their own, multiclassing would only slow the powerful spells from coming online sooner, call lighting is a fantastic go to whenever you're outside, and I'd take spell sniper and pick up booming blade (you learn one cantrip as part of the feat) the extra damage potential from that will out perform great weapon master by far, by level 5 you'll be able to attack an enemy from 10ft away with BB doing 1d10+1d8+str and sense you're already 10ft away you can move away and not trigger an attack of opportunity, and on the enemies turn it'll usually have to come up to you to retaliate which will trigger BB second effect causing 2d8 more damage, PAM can wait as well, it's not super necessary for this but the extra attack attempts are okay.
I agree with this. I'd add that War Caster would also be a key feat since it will allow you to react attack with your Booming Blade.

[EvilAnagram]

I would at least wait on Polearm Master. Tempest clerics get Spiritual Weapon for bonus action damage and a reaction to zap someone frim their domain. Sentinel, however, is a pretty good feat. You get to both reaction attack if they ignore you reaction attack if they hit you, so you're giving adjacent enemies two bad options.

[djreynolds]

1. Put a 13 in intelligence and get a level of wizard and get booming blade and dump dex

2. Sentinel and spirit guardians works once.... and then your DM will wake up and never again let it happen. But booming blade and spirit guardians is a good combo, but you need war caster.

3. Move in cast spirit guardians, the enemy moves to leave and you hit them with booming blade. Now they can leave and take thunder or stay and take radiant

So I would begin as a cleric if you are going to take a level in wizard, or begin as sorcerer and then go cleric. I prefer wizard because of the utility spells and grabbing sculpt spell later on with another level. But sorcerer gives you con saves and your wisdom is high enough you might make most wisdom saves later on. And since you have a 17 strength, you could grab resilient wisdom for a 19 wisdom and later on even off that 17 strength and 19 wisdom

So at level 4 cleric and 1st level wizard or sorcerer.... grab war caster. Now when you hit with an AoO you can use booming blade

Then get to 8th level quickly for divine strike. Here I would grab PAM as its reaction attack goes well with war caster.

LEAVE your strength at 17... it is good enough for now.

Now at 8th level cleric/1 wizard.... I might grab 2 wizard and evocation and sculpt spell... but here it is up to you

[Gignere]

I recommend staying at least to 9 in cleric to get destructive wave that will help with disabling enemies. I second the suggestion to get booming blade but I would suggest you get it via spell sniper now you can booming blade with your glaive. Get warcaster and you should be set. No need to MC at all, however from your replies it does sound like you are pretty set on MC.

[Quoxis]

I recommend staying at least to 9 in cleric to get destructive wave that will help with disabling enemies. I second the suggestion to get booming blade but I would suggest you get it via spell sniper now you can booming blade with your glaive. Get warcaster and you should be set. No need to MC at all, however from your replies it does sound like you are pretty set on MC.

The problem is that your build needs too many feats - PAM for a second attack, warcaster for concentration and magic aoo, spell sniper (or theoretically magic initiate) to get booming blade in the first place... With a dragonborn you're at lvl 12 at this point.
A multiclass into fighter would open the gates for more ASI to spend on those feats, depending on when you MC you can have them at 9th level (c1/f8) while also having multiattack, action surge and other fighter goodies; going eldritch knight he'd be at least a third-level caster (and i think by RAW you can prepare cleric spells for any level of spell slots you have, not explicitely cleric ones).

[Lilio]

First and foremost: Thank you all for your input! I will consider your suggestion Booming blade seems nice indeed, so I might ask my dm if using it with my glaive reach could be allowed.


No need to MC at all, however from your replies it does sound like you are pretty set on MC.

I know that sounds stubborn, but well, maybe a bit.
The thing is, yes, the class is good by itself but I wanted to try something a bit more nonconventional? If it's all no good I guess I will stay cleric, but I really hoped I could make a heavy disruptor-support type of character (that's why I played with the idea of MCing into Druid, for them juicy entangle spells and the like)

The thread was made to find out of it's feasible. The general consensus seems to be no, better play the standard tempest cleric instead, so that's fine!

[djreynolds]

Because of divine strike at 8th and 14th level, having a second attack... is like a rogue having a second attack.... its just to make sure you land 1 strike a turn.

So booming blade accomplishes this, since it is one attack, but no second attack which can hurt

Also, though you rolled awesome stats, having to max out two stats, in your case strength and wisdom is expensive

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But lets work with your idea... a tempest druid.... a storm lord

How many levels of cleric do you need actually to pull this off? And how many levels of druid

Now as mentioned before destructive wave is a 5th level spell you get for 9 levels of tempest cleric

And give me some spells you want, perhaps you do not need destructive wave as it includes your party

[Lilio]

Hm, if not stopping after druid 3 for the free Arctic Spell I would probably go for at least lvl 4 spells. Confusion, Watery sphere and vine grip are nice. Probably also using one of the wall spells and dust devil for narrow spaces. It's a bit of a bummer that around 80% of the things I like are concentration spells.

For cleric I would mostly opt for the standard healing / supporting spells

[Talamare]

Have you considered Bard instead of Cleric?

Just ask to swap your Wis and Cha and you're golden.


Edit - Has the Heals, Has the Melee Support, Has the CC

[Gignere]

The problem is that your build needs too many feats - PAM for a second attack, warcaster for concentration and magic aoo, spell sniper (or theoretically magic initiate) to get booming blade in the first place... With a dragonborn you're at lvl 12 at this point.
A multiclass into fighter would open the gates for more ASI to spend on those feats, depending on when you MC you can have them at 9th level (c1/f8) while also having multiattack, action surge and other fighter goodies; going eldritch knight he'd be at least a third-level caster (and i think by RAW you can prepare cleric spells for any level of spell slots you have, not explicitely cleric ones).

I don't think PAM is necessary on clerics since they have extremely good bonus action options like spiritual weapons and healing word.

With just spell sniper and Warcaster you can force trigger by booming blade them at 10 feet, trap them in your spirt guardian aura, now it can choose to move towards you and trigger BB, attacking the cleric will trigger reaction lightning damage that you can use to push him away. If the enemy tries to run it will trigger BB and now you can warcaster a second BB and it will trigger that as well.

So I don't find having PAM all that useful and necessary with BB at range on a cleric.

[Lilio]

Have you considered Bard instead of Cleric?

Just ask to swap your Wis and Cha and you're golden.


Edit - Has the Heals, Has the Melee Support, Has the CC

I lack the acting quality to play a bard I would be satisfied with, that's why no, I have never considered bard.



(...)
So I don't find having PAM all that useful and necessary with BB at range on a cleric.

Yes, you are right. Warcaster/sniper does pretty much what Pam/sentinel can, but with more potential damage.

But for me it's not only about the crunch tbh. I wanted to know if I can play the character I had in mind without crippling myself.

It's more of a 'hey (how) can I do this cc-offtank thingie and still be worth a slot in a group?' than a 'how do I maximise damage with a Tempest cleric?'

[djreynolds]

I rolled very decent stats, decided on playing a Tempest cleric and choose a bronze dragonborn as my race. I also decided to roll for starting gold.

after racial bonus my ability scores are:
17 str
13 dex
16 con
12 int
18 wis
9 Cha

And I bought a glaive and a chain mail as my starting equipment. (As well as of course an explorers pack and my holy symbol, plus some additional stuff)

Lets work with what you got here

Other classes can give a lot. You can cherry pick from ranger and fighter.... why not?

I wouldn't worry about the extra attack, booming blade and if needed the bless can carry you for damage output. And you have some friends

Now you have a 13 in dex, so that's okay for medium armor. Breastplate (you can stealth in this) with a shield is AC17. That's a good AC.

Now if you take a couple levels of fighter you can grab GWF style for your polearm or defensive style, in fact 3 levels of Eldritch Knight is a good choice for the shield spell, help out your AC as a reaction and possibly absorb elements as well and grab lightning lure and booming blade

You could grab 2 levels of ranger and get defensive style also, and some spells like absorb elements, get extra damage with revised ranger and if you would like horde breaker or colossus slayer

Cleric has lots of good spells as well like Aid and warding bond which will help out keeping others standing

Also druids thorn whip is awesome because there is no save to this. More powerful than you think

[WickerNipple]

It's more of a 'hey (how) can I do this cc-offtank thingie and still be worth a slot in a group?' than a 'how do I maximise damage with a Tempest cleric?'

See the thing is: Tempest cleric does the cc-offtank thingie perfectly well straight out of the box. Heavy armor, full weapons and Spirit Guardians is practically the best melee-cc in the game. Dipping into fighter will water this down, not make it more cc-offtank.

Dump dex, put on some plate and go knock heads.

[Talamare]

I lack the acting quality to play a bard I would be satisfied with, that's why no, I have never considered bard.

Screw acting, Screw Music

Play a character not a cliche

[ZorroGames]

Screw acting, Screw Music

Play a character not a cliche

This is what I am seriously considering. Just as not all actors sing and dance; be a "secular priest" of insight, persuasion, perception, and deception. Or Disguise Self, mimic voices ability, friends, charm person. Or be "Mr. Utility spell/ability" incarnate. Or lead (or mislead) the party. Convince the muscle to break heads, the Caster to prioritize, the Rogue to sneak with extra ability. Make the party stronger by making the other players more powerful.

[Beelzebubba]

I lack the acting quality to play a bard I would be satisfied with, that's why no, I have never considered bard.

You could pull off the class with a mute drummer - he/she just slams things loudly to inspire and shock

It's much more open to flavoring than the stereotypes lead you to believe