how would you roll up Vimes

[Spiritchaser]

I'm making a watch captain for an ongoing campaign, and in going to use Sir Samuel as inspiration

(still need an excuse to put a weatherwax in there somewhere)

He's been off camera so far as the one time commander of an NPC, but will soon be encountering the PCs.

They'll be level 8-10 when they run into each other... Depending on what they choose to do.

I'm figuring 11-13 for his Grace. (new name rank and title of course)

I'm thinking some variety of rogue, possibly with a level of fighter, and take resilient wisdom... Probably tavern brawler... Other than that...

Solid charisma intelligence and wisdom, expertise in insight...

Any other thoughts?

[Mith]

He also has some talents as a Berzerker if you look at Night Watch and Thud!

I would consider Rogue/Barbarian.

[Unoriginal]

I'm making a watch captain for an ongoing campaign, and in going to use Sir Samuel as inspiration

(still need an excuse to put a weatherwax in there somewhere)

He's been off camera so far as the one time commander of an NPC, but will soon be encountering the PCs.

They'll be level 8-10 when they run into each other... Depending on what they choose to do.

I'm figuring 11-13 for his Grace. (new name rank and title of course)

I'm thinking some variety of rogue, possibly with a level of fighter, and take resilient wisdom... Probably tavern brawler... Other than that...

Solid charisma intelligence and wisdom, expertise in insight...

Any other thoughts?

...are you talking about stating a NPC?

In this case, I'd advise you to not try to use the PC creation rules.


Just go for something like:


Watch Captain

Armor Class 16 (half plate)

Hit Points 84 (14d8 + 28)

Speed 30ft.

STR 16 (+3)
DEX 12 (+1)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 14 (+2)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 14 (+2)

Saving Throws; Str +8, Dex +6, Wis +7
Skills: Athletics +8, Perception +7, Insight +7
Senses: passive Perception 17

ACTIONS

Multiattack. The captain makes two longsword attacks. If he has one hand free, he can also make a fist attack. Or he can makes three fist attacks.

Longsword: Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) slashing damage, or 8 (1d10 + 3) slashing damage if used with two hands.
Fist: Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d4 + 3) piercing damage.
Heavy Crossbow: Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, range 100/400 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d10) piercing damage.

REACTIONS
Parry. The captain adds 2 to its AC against one melee attack that would hit it. To do so, the captain must see the attacker and be able to move.

[Contrast]

Rogue/barbarian is what I was going to suggest too. Failing that rogue/fighter (battlemaster) might work as well - the maneuvers seems appropriate.

The real issue is that I can't imagine Sam Vimes nimbly dodging and weaving through combats. Maybe pick up shield master/a shield master style effect so you can shove people prone to trigger sneak attack rather disengaging to dodge out of combat?

I wouldn't say Vimes is particularly famed for his charisma or intelligence either. I would probably put wisdom and constitution as high stats, others passable.


Edit - Though I also agree with Unoriginal above. Use PC abilities for inspiration if you want but don't feel obligated to make him a PC.

[Kish]

Indeed, using the same rules for PCs as for NPCs is for 3.xe, not 5e.

[JellyPooga]

Solid charisma intelligence and wisdom, expertise in insight...

Any other thoughts?

Which version of Vimes have you been reading? Vimes is a patsy with some street-smarts; he "solves" crimes by being manipulated into the right place at the right time, not because he's actually good at his job. He finds "clues" and follows them to the wrong conclusion. He gets on peoples nerves and takes pride in it. He's not that smart, but at least he knows it. He wins fights because he's underestimated, not because he's actually any good in them.

Str? Average
Dex? Average to low
Con? Maybe above average, but not a lot
Int? (Low) Average
Wis? Actually half-decent. Maybe a 14
Cha? Actively low. He is bad at social interaction. People like him despite his flaws.

Vimes is an underdog and considers himself so, even after his "promotion" to the nobility. Don't go trying to give him good stats or abilities; use your GM-fiat to make narrativium work for him despite everything.

[Unoriginal]

Rogue/barbarian is what I was going to suggest too. Failing that rogue/fighter (battlemaster) might work as well - the maneuvers seems appropriate.

The real issue is that I can't imagine Sam Vimes nimbly dodging and weaving through combats. Maybe pick up shield master/a shield master style effect so you can shove people prone to trigger sneak attack rather disengaging to dodge out of combat?

I wouldn't say Vimes is particularly famed for his charisma or intelligence either. I would probably put wisdom and constitution as high stats, others passable.


Edit - Though I also agree with Unoriginal above. Use PC abilities for inspiration if you want but don't feel obligated to make him a PC.

Vimes is neither a Rogue, a Barbarian, or a Battlemaster. At best if you wanted to emulate him you could go with Champion Fighter, but that's it.

Also, while not incredibly intelligent nor charismatic, he is much better at lying, intimidating and motivating people than the average joe, and he is actually pretty decently knowledgeable and managed to figure out others' plans in many occasions.


Which version of Vimes have you been reading? Vimes is a patsy with some street-smarts; he "solves" crimes by being manipulated into the right place at the right time, not because he's actually good at his job. He finds "clues" and follows them to the wrong conclusion. He gets on peoples nerves and takes pride in it. He's not that smart, but at least he knows it. He wins fights because he's underestimated, not because he's actually any good in them.

Str? Average
Dex? Average to low
Con? Maybe above average, but not a lot
Int? (Low) Average
Wis? Actually half-decent. Maybe a 14
Cha? Actively low. He is bad at social interaction. People like him despite his flaws.

Vimes is an underdog and considers himself so, even after his "promotion" to the nobility. Don't go trying to give him good stats or abilities; use your GM-fiat to make narrativium work for him despite everything.

That's not actually true. He solves plenty of crimes completely legitimately, without any manipulations from others, and he is fairly competent with detective work. He sometime reach the wrong conclusion, true, but it's generally because he doesn't dig deep enough once he has seen past the obvious misdirection. And while he gets on people's nerves and doesn't like social interactions, it's not because he's really bad at them. He can be diplomatic and accommodating... up to the point where he loses his temper or let out a mocking comment. His capacity to intimidate and bluff also shows an above average charisma. In term of intelligence, he outsmarted everyone the Assassin Guild sent after him. Sure, they had to follow a code of conduct, while he didn't, but using that fact to his advantage proves his smarts.

And given the feats he does and situations he lives through, he is both decently strong and pretty resilient.

As for being not good in a fight, he won too many of them, even against opponents who knew to not underestimate him, for it to be true. He's not the best, maybe, but he's a good enough fighter to strongly impress young Vetinari.

Vimes has plenty of problems he struggle with, but he's no underdog it term of capacities.

[Mith]

Vimes is neither a Rogue, a Barbarian, or a Battlemaster. At best if you wanted to emulate him you could go with Champion Fighter, but that's it.

Also, while not incredibly intelligent nor charismatic, he is much better at lying, intimidating and motivating people than the average joe, and he is actually pretty decently knowledgeable and managed to figure out others' plans in many occasions.

I only pick Barbarian to emulate his fight in Night Watch, which to me is more Barbaric style than anything else. But that's a bias on my part because I really like Night Watch.

[Spiritchaser]

Indeed, using the same rules for PCs as for NPCs is for 3.xe, not 5e.

I do. It gives the campaign a certain flavor, everyone seems to like it and I'm not changing now.

It does make some foes into glass cannons, which artificially elevates the value of alpha strikes, but again, that's how things are, at least on those occasions where The PCs are fighting other NPCs. The PCs like knowing that the limits of performance apply to the other side as well

[Spiritchaser]

Vimes has plenty of problems he struggle with, but he's no underdog it term of capacities.

And when it came down to a one on one internal battle between Vimes and the following dark (Which would probably translate into something pretty scary) a battle that shouldn't have been winnable... Even Vetinary gave him even odds.

[Unoriginal]

Indeed, using the same rules for PCs as for NPCs is for 3.xe, not 5e.


I do. It gives the campaign a certain flavor, everyone seems to like it and I'm not changing now.

It does make some foes into glass cannons, which artificially elevates the value of alpha strikes, but again, that's how things are, at least on those occasions where The PCs are fighting other NPCs. The PCs like knowing that the limits of performance apply to the other side as well

The humanoid NPC statblocks generally are a very simplified version of PC classes. There is no real "glass cannon" issue unless you make enemies of a way weaker CR than what PCs should be facing.

Like the 2HD guard is a CR 1/8 opponent, and a CR 3 Knight has 8 or 9 HD

[Socratov]

I only pick Barbarian to emulate his fight in Night Watch, which to me is more Barbaric style than anything else. But that's a bias on my part because I really like Night Watch.

I'd say Battlemaster fighter, and reflavor them as dirty tricks. I mean we are talking about a man who, his insanely high wisdom (he knows when you lie and he often knows you better then yourself, not to mention, his watchman, who hatches the summoning dark, who watches him and he resists the latter by full frontal stubbornness earning him the title 'Blackboard monitor), moderate cha (I mean, he is no Captain Carrot or Havelock Vetinari, but he is intimidating enough to make the Low King and the Trolling to make peace, and to keep it) and insane con (really did you doubt any of this, not only is he born '2 below par', he can walk anywhere his boots can carry him. He outlasts multiple sets of boots, even after they have been refitted until their everything has worn out.

Oh, and how dirty he fights, the only one to outdo him (as far as we know it) is his butler Willikins. Who is totally a rogue by the way, playing dirty in a different way and great, nay, exceptional with knives.

[Mith]

I'd say Battlemaster fighter, and reflavor them as dirty tricks. I mean we are talking about a man who, his insanely high wisdom (he knows when you lie and he often knows you better then yourself, not to mention, his watchman, who hatches the summoning dark, who watches him and he resists the latter by full frontal stubbornness earning him the title 'Blackboard monitor), moderate cha (I mean, he is no Captain Carrot or Havelock Vetinari, but he is intimidating enough to make the Low King and the Trolling to make peace, and to keep it) and insane con (really did you doubt any of this, not only is he born '2 below par', he can walk anywhere his boots can carry him. He outlasts multiple sets of boots, even after they have been refitted until their everything has worn out.

Oh, and how dirty he fights, the only one to outdo him (as far as we know it) is his butler Willikins. Who is totally a rogue by the way, playing dirty in a different way and great, nay, exceptional with knives.

That's fair. I guess I recall Comes being more brute force with dirty tricks, while Battlemaster to me implies more finess.

[Contrast]

Vimes is neither a Rogue, a Barbarian, or a Battlemaster. At best if you wanted to emulate him you could go with Champion Fighter, but that's it.

If I was making Vimes as a PC I'd say a two level barbarian dip would work (he is stubborn and just refuses you go down and stay down unless you make him which is the resilience from rage and will willingly put himself at risk if he thinks it'll get the job done which is reckless attack - plus he has serious anger issues). I wouldn't say he's at his best in a straight fight (champion fighter? really? Carrot is a champion fighter surely?) but he excels in taking advantage of his opponents weaknesses and striking at the best time to punish his opponent for their overconfidence (sneak attack/manoeuvres).

I would agree trying to emulate Vimes in game is somewhat difficult as his only real talent is being stubborn and that isn't really a mechanical thing. I guess that's a suggestion I can get behind as well though - having his personality being inspired behind Vimes doesn't mean you have to represent that mechanically. I do think sneaking something in there to represent Vimes ability to get one up on his opponent and stick the boot in would be appropriate though :smallwink:

Maybe an opportunity to sneak a custom magic item in? Knuckledusters of +2d6 damage if your opponent is prone, when an opponent is bought to 0 wounds by this weapon they are automatically knocked unconscious? :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're talking post Night Watch Vimes, then yeah, definitely at least one Barbarian level-- the narration talks about "The Beast," and he goes full-on mindless berserker in Thudd at one point.

I could see maybe Rouge 3-4/Barbarian (Berserker) 6/Fighter (Battlemaster) 3. Not sure what kind of Rogue is best; maybe Swashbuckler, given how often he winds up on his own. The Berserker's charm/fear immunity is about right, and he definitely gets tired after raging, while the Battlemaster gives him some extra dirty tricks. Very high Con, with other stats only moderate.

[Socratov]

If you're talking post Night Watch Vimes, then yeah, definitely at least one Barbarian level-- the narration talks about "The Beast," and he goes full-on mindless berserker in Thudd at one point.

I could see maybe Rouge 3-4/Barbarian (Berserker) 6/Fighter (Battlemaster) 3. Not sure what kind of Rogue is best; maybe Swashbuckler, given how often he winds up on his own. The Berserker's charm/fear immunity is about right, and he definitely gets tired after raging, while the Battlemaster gives him some extra dirty tricks. Very high Con, with other stats only moderate.

And WIS. Resisting the Summoning Dark is no small feat, doing so by sheer bullheadedness (WIS save) is amazing. Definitely high WIS

[JackPhoenix]

I'd argue for at least two warlock levels. In Snuff, he's able to see in total darkness, communicate with Summoning Dark and... I think understand goblin language or something? It's been a while.

[Anderlith]

Which version of Vimes have you been reading? Vimes is a patsy with some street-smarts; he "solves" crimes by being manipulated into the right place at the right time, not because he's actually good at his job. He finds "clues" and follows them to the wrong conclusion. He gets on peoples nerves and takes pride in it. He's not that smart, but at least he knows it. He wins fights because he's underestimated, not because he's actually any good in them.

Str? Average
Dex? Average to low
Con? Maybe above average, but not a lot
Int? (Low) Average
Wis? Actually half-decent. Maybe a 14
Cha? Actively low. He is bad at social interaction. People like him despite his flaws.

Vimes is an underdog and considers himself so, even after his "promotion" to the nobility. Don't go trying to give him good stats or abilities; use your GM-fiat to make narrativium work for him despite everything.

Dude killed a werewolf with his barehands... outran, outlasted & outmaneuvered a werewolf pack.

Can resist a demonic entity into giving up, even though it itself comments on how nothing has ever resisted it before.

Holds his own in diplomatic matters even if he personally hates talking out his problems

My personal opinion is

V. Human
Investigator Background
Mastermind/Inquisitive Rogue
With a few levels of Warlock, Raven Queen maybe

He isnt a rank & file fighter, not woodsy or survival based to be a ranger, if they made an urban monk he might be that, not barbarian because he just doesnt have that wild aspect, hates magic so nothing more than a warlock for Darkness tricks, id almost want to say he could have a few levels of a Law based paladin with his shield being his holy symbol, but nothing else about the class works. He is just a lawful rogue.

Decently high physical stats & willpower, average charisma but mostly just high skill in social stats

I'd fluff Thud! as him going Beastmode as an aspect of becoming a Warlock

[Potato_Priest]

I'd argue for at least two warlock levels. In Snuff, he's able to see in total darkness, communicate with Summoning Dark and... I think understand goblin language or something? It's been a while.

In snuff though he's pretty much Mr. Marty Sue McSnowflake, so that's probably not the book that I'd use to build the NPC. I'd prefer to make the character more like a younger, less overpowered vimes, for which a high strength rogue with tavern brawler would probably do the trick rather nicely.

[Spiritchaser]

Thanks for the suggestions all

Some type of roguezerker sounds good, I wouldn't have thought of one, and I've neither played nor DM'd one.

Modest physical skills, attacks with modest strength using a finesse weapon....

High wisdom score, resilient wisdom...

[JackPhoenix]

V. Human
Investigator Background
Mastermind/Inquisitive Rogue
With a few levels of Warlock, Raven Queen maybe

I disagree with Investigator background and suggest Urchin instead. He's still influenced by his youth as... well, urchin in Shades. And urchin's background feature certainly fits him.

[MrStabby]

I am wondering about monk.

Sure you can skip a lot of the supernatural abilities but being good at unarmed fighting, despite being weaker than many (although arguably less dexterous). The open hand abilities on flurry of blows seem in keeping with a slightly dirtier fighting style. Unarmoured defence represents him using his better than average situational awareness.

Frankly if you wanted to, there are enough attributes and abilities between many of the mentioned classes to homebrew a whole new class.

Between rage, dirty fighting, great situational awareness, cunning and policing skills there is plenty to populate a class. If you like NPCs being stated like PCs then you can lay out the class and use the same progression to build the lower level watchmen.

[Spiritchaser]

I disagree with Investigator background and suggest Urchin instead. He's still influenced by his youth as... well, urchin in Shades. And urchin's background feature certainly fits him.

I think urchin background is a given for Vimes, and it's doubly critical in this context. One of the virtues of the nation he serves in the campaign is the opportunity for anyone to rise through the ranks. Yes Vimes felt like a class traitor for doing so, and certainly he faced prejudice and adversity along the way, partly from himself (it's actually a bit easier where this character lives) but it was possible.

Most other factions in this campaign have no such freedom of upward mobility through dint of skill or dedication. They have other virtues. If the characters have to support a faction during a war (and so far they haven't done anything to prevent the one that's brewing), then I want them to be able to choose what they are fighting for.

This character can be an important part of showcasing that. The environmental irresponsibility of the faction in question is part of its darker side... I'll have other events to showcase that.