Multi-classing as a Bard

[poopyloop]

I fairly recently started playing D&D and was lucky enough to start my very first game with quite the strong character. I'm currently sitting at a 5th level Tiefling Bard in college of Valor with 15/14/14/14/13/20 (took +1 DEX/CON at lv 4 for extra AC thanks to medium armor and hit points, planning on going war caster next ASI). This being my first character, other than knowing I wanted CHA to be high, I didn't really know what I was doing when I initially started, thus the high STR

Main reason I went valor bard is our party comp - we only had 3 members to start. Other than me we had a (now vengeance) half-orc paladin and an ice dragon sorcerer. I was easily the frailest of us and being our only healer, I decided to change that. Since then we've added a way of the fist elf monk to the party, so I am still very much the main source of support and healing to the party, but I'm also no slouch in the damage department either.

That said, I have yet to use all 5 uses of my bardic inspiration, and even if I had, I still don't think the lv 20 bard ability would be worth taking, so I'm very strongly considering some multi-class options. However, I don't know if we'll actually be playing this campaign to lv 20 (likely not, but we might carry our characters over to another eventually) so I am looking for opinions on whether or not multi-classing is a good idea at all seeing as it will slow down my bard progress. If I do I was so far considering:

- Rogue for the extra damage (granted i'm not DEX heavy at all)
- Warlock for EB spamming (not a necessity I don't think, but it would likely be a better option than attacking later on)
- Cleric for more healing and heavy armor. Not sure the domain, but I was thinking life
I've also come across the cantrip Shillelagh that I'm a fan of, not sure how good it is later on compared to other options, but atm it's looking pretty good for me. Let me know if there's a way I can get it from any of the above options if it's something worthwhile

I'm also open to hearing other options, as I'm totally unsure of where I want to take this character. (I've since had at least a vague build idea for my other characters, but this one I've had real issues with in deciding)

spell suggestions for magical secrets when I eventually hit it with any suggested build would be appreciated as well

[Aaron Underhand]

Given your party I can see you in combat a lot.

At 6th you'll be standing shoulder to shoulder with the Paladin - you benefit from his aura - the monk will likely want to be mobile, and the sorcerer no where near the front line.

Given your awesome stats, and the fact that you get a second attack at 6th level you should have no problem being support caster/healer, 2nd string melee or ranged. I would recommend remaining single classed, and gaining spells which give you the flexibility to do all these things.

Shillelagh is not great for you as it uses wisdom - and you have martial weapon proficiency anyway. It also uses a bonus action you may well have other uses for. As a magical secret at 10th it's a bit of a waste - there are great 5th level spells you're giving up in preference to this. If you really want to gish you could get this and booming blade, but it doesn't synergise with two attacks. What weapon are you currently using?

Staying straight bard could give you (as a simple example) Greater Invisibility at 7th level - both ranged and melee combat with advantage, and enemies at disadvantage to hit you... or just use hold person and let the paladin smite...

That's not to say there aren't great multiclass options, but I think the higher level spells are more valuable.

With two attacks you can also use a longbow - but if you want better ranged options consider spell sniper to pick up eldritch blast...

EDIT:

At 10th level I would consider taking Cone of cold, and one of Wall of Force or Wall of Stone.

[Specter]

You shouldn't multiclass before level 9, I believe.
- Greater Invisibility will let you buff your friends and yourself to a whole new level.
- You need an ASI to boost your attacking stat.
- It's always good to have Raise Dead.

[poopyloop]

@Aaron Underhand:

"Given your party I can see you in combat a lot." - yes, unfortunately due to the small party size and make-up and a fairly heavy battle campaign, I see the front lines more often than not. I'm currently the 2nd bulkiest in the party

"Shillelagh is not great for you as it uses wisdom" - it says it uses your spellcasting ability, which for me would be CHA if i'm able to get it as a bard, unless it changes it if i get it because of MC'ing into another class?

"What weapon are you currently using?" - my main is a longsword that I pull out when I'm done casting spells for the battle, otherwise I have javelins for range


"With two attacks you can also use a longbow - but if you want better ranged options consider spell sniper to pick up eldritch blast..." - correct me if I'm wrong, for some reason I can't find the ruling, but don't all range-only weapons use DEX as their stat mod for hit and damage? if so, I'd be much more inclined to stick to my javelins or start using a cantrip instead. However, the issue I have with spell sniper over taking a level of Warlock is that I'll lack the extra CHA based damage that the invocation will give me (granted I have no idea what the other invocation I'd choose, but if I did MC into Warlock I would most likely go to 2nd level)




But I am inclined to agree with both of you, I'm very heavily considering not bothering multi-classing at all until much later

[bid]

I've also come across the cantrip Shillelagh that I'm a fan of, not sure how good it is later on compared to other options, but atm it's looking pretty good for me.
You'd need tomelock 3 to get a Cha shillelagh. It's not worth your few secrets at bard 10.

Remember that when you MC, each of your classes behave separately. For instance, take a valor 6 / druid 1. The valor-6 half does not know shillelagh, it's the druid-1 half that does and it uses Wis to cast spells. Same thing with magic initiate feat.

[Arelai]

Don't multiclass. Get to level 10 and take the ranger spell Swift Quiver, or the 5th level spell paladin aura "aura of vitality"(I think that's what it's called)

[Aaron Underhand]

At Str 15, Dex 14 you strength based attacks (longsword and javelin) are the same as your dex based attacks (finessing rapier and longbow).

Neither are going to give you top-teir damage, but then as a Bard you're a full caster, and that's where your strength is.

A two level dip into Warlock gives you very acceptable At-will ranged damage with eldritch blast and agonising blast.

If you want to get melee damage getting shillelagh means you don't need to boost strength or dex - that's possible with Warlock 3 or a magical secret at level 10. But even then the damage in melee wont match your eldritch blast, and with two attacks the SCAG cantrips (Booming blade and Green Flame blade) are also probably trap options.

That said a good case can be made for Warlock 3 if you also wish to get ritual casting. Try looking at Bard 7/Warlock 3 compared to Bard 10, and decide which you would prefer - and remember you will have had an additional ASI at Bard 8, and Magical secrets at Bard 10, and if you multiclass you will have 7th level Bard casting, and just 2 short-rest 2nd level spell slots from Warlock. Decide which is most fun.

If you do choose to multiclass I would go Bard 6 for the second attack, then Warlock 3, then choose back to Bard or more warlock...

[Aaron Underhand]

Don't multiclass. Get to level 10 and take the ranger spell Swift Quiver, or the 5th level spell paladin aura "aura of vitality"(I think that's what it's called)

Swift Quiver really means you need to boost Dex, as you still need to hit at range. The OP has a main problem with melee as he has to front line.

[Specter]

Swift Quiver really means you need to boost Dex, as you still need to hit at range. The OP has a main problem with melee as he has to front line.

In that case, Paladin smite spells like Banishing Smite can help.

[Chunkosaurus]

I'm about to get my college of Swords Bard to tenth, so I've been thinking about Magical Secrets a lot. Two I would highly recommend especially if you are going into melee is Fire Shield from Wizard which hurts those who hit you and also gives you fire or cold resistance. The other is Spirit Guardians from Cleric as this along with your paladin will allow you to mow through enemies. You can damage every turn with Spirit Guardians for 3d8 and then still attack, heal, inspire, or blast with your action and bonus action.

Although looking at your situation I would recommend Aura of Vitality instead of Fire Shield. Spirit guardians however is a hell yes.

[KnotaGuru]

Agreed you should stay with bard. With valor you'll get an extra attack. The main reason folks do warlock for EB is they don't have a reliable attack. You'll be fine. Grab warcaster next ASI (if you stay sword & board) or switch to a 2-handed weapon (longbow or greatsword) and take sharpshooter or great weapon master. Then start pumping DEX or STR with you next ASIs. For level 10 magical secrets, take spirit guardians or destructive wave for up close damage, swift quiver for ranged damage, wall of force for battlefield control. Level 12 ASI continge to pump attack stat or inspiring leader/healer if you focus on being a caster. Level 14 magical secrets grab simulacrum. See what the sorcerer is getting (damage or control) and get the other, remember it's a team game :)

[Aaron Underhand]

Interesting comments for the pure bard approach.

War caster and standing next to the Paladin should allow you to keep your concentration up.

In that situation Spirit Guardians is an awesome spell - just remember that you wont be casting any other concentration spells. If by level 10 you already find that Hypnotic pattern is good then you might not choose it - however it will get things resistant to charms. The other approach is wall of force or wall of stone - no save options to allow you to restrict the number of enemies you face at once. As pointed out - you should coordinate with the sorcerer.

As you're the primary healer you'll likely need to pick a healing spell as well - Aura of vitality actually beats Mass Cure Wounds on a small party, just remember it's out of combat healing - in combat your concentration has better uses. You'll likely need healing word, the restoration spells and raise dead as well. Five of your 14 spells known on healing, but your party will be very happy. (Note in some universes at least lesser restoration is easily available on scrolls - that can save you a precious spell known slot).

If you've multi-classed raise dead may still be a couple of levels away...

You just haven't got enough ASIs to get a decent attack stat - but you can still be in melee and contributing.

ASI at 8th - Wacaster (keep the concentration spells up - get an awesome attack of opportunity)
ASI at 12th - Ritual caster (Wizard) - get massive utility for the party - unless someone else can be persuaded to do this, in which case Defensive Duellist will keep you safer in melee. Other than those either inspiring leader or healer are great.

Fighters can have a maxed attack stat, polearm master and great weapon master - you would need 3-5 feats to bring this online, so 16th at the earliest... I think you'll have more fun, and be more use to the part in the combined role you have - let the Paladin nova - you concentrate on holding the line, softening up, utility casting, and primary healer...

[poopyloop]

@bid: right, I guess I wasn't aware of that rule, I assumed you used your original spellcasting ability but didn't really think about it. unfortunate cuz shillelagh looks like fun

@aaron: I've had 15 STR from the beginning, so I've just been so used to my STR-based weapons, I kind of forgot now that I've got 14 DEX they're the same mod/damage output (more or less). The main issue here though is that using bows or crossbows will force me to stop using my shield, which is something I don't want to do being in the thick of melee combat all the time. I wasn't planning on becoming some huge damage dealer in close range, but I just thought a little boost with something like shillelagh or EB would come in handy.

@KnotaGuru: that's a good point, if anything I'll at least wait a few levels before I start multi-classing (I want to do at least 1 level in something, but the timing is the main issue I guess, probably gonna wait til I at least have magical secrets) I've been thinking about war caster as my next feat since I for sure want to keep my shield/sword combo, unless I pick up EB. So far, I haven't had much issue with working around the somatic components as I start battle without a weapon in hand, and start hitting with offensive spells at first, and then take out the sword after the enemies have been sufficiently softened up. I think getting EB will be roughly equivalent to warcaster, since they'll both allow me to have a no-cost damage option while still being able to cast spells. The only issue is I won't be able to fully utilize the 2 attack option if I go for EB instead of warcaster.


And to all of you, thanks for the spell suggestions, I'll make sure to start a list with all the suggested ones in the thread and decide when I finally hit the magical secrets

And after a bit of thought, I think I've narrowed the MC'ing down to Cleric and Warlock, unless someone can make a strong case for something else, likely will wait a few levels however unless something drastically changes in the party

[bid]

@bid: right, I guess I wasn't aware of that rule, I assumed you used your original spellcasting ability but didn't really think about it. unfortunate cuz shillelagh looks like fun
You can still do pact of the tome warlock to get shillelagh. Since you have 2 attacks, melee damage will be good enough.

Armor of agathy on a 3rd slot is 15 temporary hp and maybe 45 damage, the porcupine approach to defense. Another point for warlock.


But dipping 1 level of life domain is another good pick.

[Citan]

I fairly recently started playing D&D and was lucky enough to start my very first game with quite the strong character. I'm currently sitting at a 5th level Tiefling Bard in college of Valor with 15/14/14/14/13/20 (took +1 DEX/CON at lv 4 for extra AC thanks to medium armor and hit points, planning on going war caster next ASI). This being my first character, other than knowing I wanted CHA to be high, I didn't really know what I was doing when I initially started, thus the high STR

Main reason I went valor bard is our party comp - we only had 3 members to start. Other than me we had a (now vengeance) half-orc paladin and an ice dragon sorcerer. I was easily the frailest of us and being our only healer, I decided to change that. Since then we've added a way of the fist elf monk to the party, so I am still very much the main source of support and healing to the party, but I'm also no slouch in the damage department either.

That said, I have yet to use all 5 uses of my bardic inspiration, and even if I had, I still don't think the lv 20 bard ability would be worth taking, so I'm very strongly considering some multi-class options. However, I don't know if we'll actually be playing this campaign to lv 20 (likely not, but we might carry our characters over to another eventually) so I am looking for opinions on whether or not multi-classing is a good idea at all seeing as it will slow down my bard progress. If I do I was so far considering:

- Rogue for the extra damage (granted i'm not DEX heavy at all)
- Warlock for EB spamming (not a necessity I don't think, but it would likely be a better option than attacking later on)
- Cleric for more healing and heavy armor. Not sure the domain, but I was thinking life
I've also come across the cantrip Shillelagh that I'm a fan of, not sure how good it is later on compared to other options, but atm it's looking pretty good for me. Let me know if there's a way I can get it from any of the above options if it's something worthwhile

I'm also open to hearing other options, as I'm totally unsure of where I want to take this character. (I've since had at least a vague build idea for my other characters, but this one I've had real issues with in deciding)

spell suggestions for magical secrets when I eventually hit it with any suggested build would be appreciated as well
Hi!
With such great stats you have two ways to go.
1. Rogue: you don't need "DEX" to apply Sneak Attack, you require "finesse weapon". So, really you could do fine if you bump STR later, but it does require that investment. Still, a very good idea if you plan on going as high as Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler) or 5 (Uncanny Dodge), enhancing your mobility and resilience greatly.

2. Warlock: IF your DM agrees to allow UA content, Hexblade Warlock is a deadly level 1 dip. Insane damage boost really since it allows you to key weapon attacks from CHA, and add a powerful malifice on top of that (which stacks with Hex!). Of course, you already have the same equipment proficiencies so it's a bit sad.
Otherwise, just pick Fiend Warlock (Command, Burning Hands, Hex and Armor of Agathys) and get Tome Pact, using Shillelagh to power your attacks.
It does require a hefty 3-level investment but nets you...
- The best ranged attack in the game (Agonizing Repelling Blast) barring a Sharpshooter Fighter.
- A very strong attack thanks to Shillelagh (with Booming Blade as a powerful single-target alternative to Extra Attack).
- Shillelagh as said, but also Thorns Whip and Guidance as bonus cantrips, and Mirror Image as 2nd level defensive spell if you wish so, otherwise Misty Step.

Why Guidance? Because it's a great way to enhance anyone's check by a decent amount, without having to blow a slot on something like Enhance Ability.
Why Thorns Whip? Because it's in essence a great tool to help allies ("disengage" a friend by pulling the foe away, improve the performance of ally's oncoming AOE by bringing an enemy into the projected area, and so forth). AND if/once you poach Spirit Guardians as 10th level Magic Secrets and pick Sentinel feat, you will become a pretty awesome tank, able to pull enemies (Thorns WHip) into a difficult terrain (Spirit Guardians) and keep them there (Sentinel's OA bringing their speed to 0). You could also combine this with Shield Master or plain Expertise in Athletics to use your Extra Attack on Shoving/Grappling instead of "plain attacks" when you think it's a better choice to keep creatures near you.

Warlock is imo the best option considering your current character and party.
With that said, IF you prefer being more on the defensive side, a single level in Life Cleric (or a multiclass up to 6 for Spirit Guardians and more Channel Divinity, but I wouldn't recommend it since it eats far too much at your Bard) would be extremely good too, especially paired with Goodberry or Aura of Vitality poached from Magic Secrets.

And, IF your DM agrees to use UA, frankly, I'd said the best dip ever would be the combination of Hexblade Warlock 1 and Forge Cleric 1.
Forge brings heavy armor, Shield, a situationally good Smite spell, and a "always on magic weapon +1". Plus all the usual Cleric goodies (Healing Words, Sanctuary, Bless, SHield of Faith, Guidance, Light).
Hexblade brings 1/short rest "critical on 19 + bonus damage equal to proficiency + use CHA for weapon attacks. Plus all the usual Warlock goodies (including a short-rest slot, great for an emergency Shield or Healing Words).
If it's allowed, go for it. RIGHT NOW. ;) Starting with Warlock, then Cleric.
Otherwise, wait until you get Bard 7 to multiclass except if there is an imperious reason for you to do so (but considering you already get Healing Words and good AC, I see no case).

[Degwerks]

I'd take 1 level of Sea Sorcerer from UA and 2 levels of Hexblade warlock. Take the Agonizing Blast & Grasp of Hadar invocations. This will allow you to yank enemies up to 25ft closer to you once per turn and do Eldritch Blast + charisma damage. Pulling the enemy from a hurt ally or yanking them from a ledge etc. Plus if you take Spirit Guardians you'll be able to get them inside of the AoE aura from it. The pulling trick can also be used to pull them into your allies threat range or keep someone from running away.

[poopyloop]

@bid: I'd love to go 3rd level warlock, but I'm not sure it's worth it to give up my final magical secrets... I'd prefer to stick to 1 or maybe 2 levels MC'ing

@Citan: the swashbuckler does seem really fun, but like I said above, really don't want to dip 3 levels out. Hexblade, however, is very enticing. The CHA based attacks and EB are things I've been looking for the most, so I think I'd much prefer this than the fiend that I was looking at taking. Life cleric is what I was planning on if I do decide cleric, but forge and a few others are also looking pretty good, but I could easily dip 1 level each of cleric and warlock and still be fine with what I want. I asked my DM about the goodberry ruling with life cleric, and he said he would not allow the increase to 40hp healing per casting. I'm liking this combination of cleric and warlock tho, so I think I will look more into the different domains and decide from there, but I'll wait a few levels as of right now. the only issue I have with only 1 warlock level is no invocations

@degworks: that's a really interesting combination, but again, the 3 level dip outside of bard isn't really something I'm looking to do, unfortunately. If our party was more of a stick-together in an area, fighting force that was always shoulder-to-shoulder, then I'd probably take this in a heart beat. however, all 4 of us usually split apart pretty early on in fights if there is room for it, and if there isn't, we usually already have all the enemies near us to begin with. However, the grasp invocation could very much come in handy, and I've been looking for another possible invocation to take besides agonizing blast. considering the past few fights where we've been chasing after a few people, I think this one might be the one I'd take were I to go into 2 levels of Warlock.

[Citan]

@bid: I'd love to go 3rd level warlock, but I'm not sure it's worth it to give up my final magical secrets... I'd prefer to stick to 1 or maybe 2 levels MC'ing

@Citan: the swashbuckler does seem really fun, but like I said above, really don't want to dip 3 levels out. Hexblade, however, is very enticing. The CHA based attacks and EB are things I've been looking for the most, so I think I'd much prefer this than the fiend that I was looking at taking. Life cleric is what I was planning on if I do decide cleric, but forge and a few others are also looking pretty good, but I could easily dip 1 level each of cleric and warlock and still be fine with what I want. I asked my DM about the goodberry ruling with life cleric, and he said he would not allow the increase to 40hp healing per casting. I'm liking this combination of cleric and warlock tho, so I think I will look more into the different domains and decide from there, but I'll wait a few levels as of right now. the only issue I have with only 1 warlock level is no invocations

It's a bit sad hearing about Life Goodberries not working, then again, although the powercheeser in me rejoiced at the time, the "official" ruling is indeed insane, as stupid as was a time the "Paladin's auras stack". So no surprise there.

Life is still a great domain to get if you want to provide good healing, by poaching Aura of Vitality at your 10th level spell.
It's far from "required" though.

You may prefer other spells as Magical Secrets, and you can grab Inspiring Leader or Healer feat later to help (Healer in particular is great if you have some way of getting consistant short rest, like Rope Trick or Leomund's Tiny Hut).

Likewise, if you don't specially want to be "great" at healing, you should consider picking instead Knowledge (MOAR skills), Nature (skills + heavy + cantrip, Mold Earth suggested), Trickery ("Pass Without Trace", single-target, non-concentration), Death (learn Chill Touch from your Warlock dip so you can use it with your good stat, while still benefitting from "twin effect". Even better if UA is allowed, pick Toll the Dead from "UA starter spells") or Forge (magic weapon, Shield).

[bid]

@bid: I'd love to go 3rd level warlock, but I'm not sure it's worth it to give up my final magical secrets... I'd prefer to stick to 1 or maybe 2 levels MC'ing
Yeah, hexblade gives you what you want with a single level dip.

[poopyloop]

@Citan

Yep, even without the goodberry silliness, life is still a good option imo too. I think I've narrowed my choices down to life domain, forge domain, and/or hexblade warlock. I think for a personal standpoint, Warlock would be better for my character to shore up his offences, but as far as the party is concerned, Cleric would probably help us all out more. Though killing things before they can harm my allies might be a better plan then healing them after they've been hurt.

I am planning on picking up some sort of healing spell later on, aura of vitality is probably a good choice.

EDIT: my DM is allowing UA and other not-yet-official content, including homebrew after he reviews it, so anything is a possibility at this point, in theory, but I think the above options are likely what I will go with

[Degwerks]

That 1 or 2 levels of Warlock could also get you the Healing Elixir spell from UA Starter Spells article. The spell gives you a healing elixir that lasts 24 hrs and heals 2d4+2. Not much but with a short rest spell recovery from warlock you can make some in advance prior to adventuring out.