Martial adept giants?

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I've been taking a look at the giants on the SRD - and I mean the ones called giants, not ogres or trolls - and for a good number of them, you can get 9th level maneuvers at CR 20 or earlier if you apply the "half HD rounded down to initiator level" thing to RHD - something that is *probably* right anyways, but not always certain depending on who you're talking to.

So, that's out of the way.

On to step two. Does anyone have advice on doing this? A Swordsage based on Setting Sun throws sounds like a fun idea, considering the huge trip bonus giants get from both size and Str, but sometimes you just want to hit really, really hard too, or other things that don't fall neatly into usual beatstickery as well.

Fluff and crunch both matter for this, BTW.

[DeTess]

If you're going with swordsage, I'd pick up diamond mind for damaging maneuvers, in addition to Setting Sun for defenestration. At higher levels, it has got several abilities that multiply your damage output by 2 or 4, which works well with high strength, while your high con works well with diamond mind's dependence on Concentration.

For other stuff, Stone Dragon lockpick (the mountain hammer maneuver line) is always useful, while picking up a bit of shadow hand could help with getting around quickly (or through doorways that haven't been build for giants).

Fluff-wise, you could portray your giant as being part of a monastic order of giants who live on some far away mountain and meditate on the nature of the world and the Sublime Way.

[J-H]

Any of the initiator classes will be strong, although i would stay away from desert wind and shadow hand.

You may also qualify quickly for a prc as well, although the ToB prcs are not great.

[lord_khaine]

Okay, I've been taking a look at the giants on the SRD - and I mean the ones called giants, not ogres or trolls - and for a good number of them, you can get 9th level maneuvers at CR 20 or earlier if you apply the "half HD rounded down to initiator level" thing to RHD - something that is *probably* right anyways, but not always certain depending on who you're talking to.

I would actually say its not right. Just looking at something as simple as a Hill Giant. With a single Initiator level it gets level 4 maneuvers, leaving it at a theoretical CR of 8.
But at the same time, its really going to crush any other CR 8-9 monster thats not some sort of gimmick fight.

[Crake]

I would actually say its not right. Just looking at something as simple as a Hill Giant. With a single Initiator level it gets level 4 maneuvers, leaving it at a theoretical CR of 8.
But at the same time, its really going to crush any other CR 8-9 monster thats not some sort of gimmick fight.

Except it'd only have the abilities, readied maneuvers and maneuvers known of a level 1 initiator, which makes a big difference for sustainability and power. I believe it'd also have the equipment of a level 1 NPC, in addition to it's standard treasure as a hill giant, and as we know, gear makes a pretty big difference in this game.

Plus, CR isn't exactly the be-all and end-all of encounter estimation.

[DeTess]

I would actually say its not right. Just looking at something as simple as a Hill Giant. With a single Initiator level it gets level 4 maneuvers, leaving it at a theoretical CR of 8.
But at the same time, its really going to crush any other CR 8-9 monster thats not some sort of gimmick fight.

I'm pretty sure a wizard, cleric or druid could do that at that level as well, so, you know, nothing wrong with that.

[lord_khaine]

Except it'd only have the abilities, readied maneuvers and maneuvers known of a level 1 initiator, which makes a big difference for sustainability and power. I believe it'd also have the equipment of a level 1 NPC, in addition to it's standard treasure as a hill giant, and as we know, gear makes a pretty big difference in this game.


A swordsage honestly got enough Maneuvers to start with. And a Warblade gets an excellent recovery mechanism. Sustainability is less of an issue when your a giant blade master. At the very least, this is a massive jump in power from adding any other sort of martial class level.


I'm pretty sure a wizard, cleric or druid could do that at that level as well, so, you know, nothing wrong with that.

This is not Wizards, Clerics or Druids we are discussing however, but monsters with character levels.

[Nifft]

In cases like this where HD >>> CR, you have to look at the specific capabilities, rather than relying on the ballpark CR formula.

*shrug*

Yeah, a Fire Giant Swordsage would be pretty spiffy. Desert Wind + Shadow Hand ("No, it is I who am behind you!"), lots of fun.

Or a Stone Giant Warblade who spams Stone Dragon maneuvers.

Or a Cloud Giant with a focus in Iron Heart.


Build the NPC, look at how it compares to a human NPC with the same number of HD, and how its capabilities & defenses compare to other monsters.

[DeTess]

This is not Wizards, Clerics or Druids we are discussing however, but monsters with character levels.

Right, apologies. I'd misread the OP and thought this had been for a PC, rather than an npc. An npc being equivalent to a tier 1 is quite another matter.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, this is about making elite giants with martial adept levels, not PCs.

So... aside from Setting Sun throws and staying away from Shadow Hand, considering the major size bonus and penalty to tripping and Hide/Move Silently respectively, just the same as making a normal NPC martial adept?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Desert Wind is normally awful because so many monster have SOME resistance to fire. PCs are less likely to so it is a much more viable discipline and actually have a few cool manuvers. The xd6+initiator level fire damage boost can actually do a lot of damage to targets that do not resist fire.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Right, apologies. I'd misread the OP and thought this had been for a PC, rather than an npc. An npc being equivalent to a tier 1 is quite another matter.

No martial initiator without casting added on will ever be equivalent to a tier 1

[danielxcutter]

Desert Wind is normally awful because so many monster have SOME resistance to fire. PCs are less likely to so it is a much more viable discipline and actually have a few cool manuvers. The xd6+initiator level fire damage boost can actually do a lot of damage to targets that do not resist fire.

Ah, good point. Sure, it's possible to throw up a Resist Energy or something, but usually, energy resistance isn't something you always have on as a PC unless you already know you'll be fighting enemies who use lots of a certain type.


No martial initiator without casting added on will ever be equivalent to a tier 1

Indeed.

[J-H]

Caveat to the above: Shadow Hand offers some decent tactical teleportation options, including a swift action one at 5th level.

[danielxcutter]

Caveat to the above: Shadow Hand offers some decent tactical teleportation options, including a swift action one at 5th level.

Ah yes, almost forgot. Still, not *too* many from that particular school that are awesome for giants... that being said, it's not impossible I guess, and Shadow Hand strikes suffer from lowish damage IIRC, which might be lessened by the sheer damage of a giant's attack. Still, it's not a good focus.

[Telok]

I threw a couple of swordsage levels on some hill giants long ago, had them dual wielding large flind-bars too. It wasn't all that great. The low base attack of giant hit dice offset the strength boost, dual wielding dropped to-hit again, and they didn't have enough maneuvers to last long enough to make a difference.

But I had decently skilled players too. Not heavy optimization, but effective enough to count as CR +1 or +2 from just base build choices even before tactics and gear selection.

[danielxcutter]

I threw a couple of swordsage levels on some hill giants long ago, had them dual wielding large flind-bars too. It wasn't all that great. The low base attack of giant hit dice offset the strength boost, dual wielding dropped to-hit again, and they didn't have enough maneuvers to last long enough to make a difference.

But I had decently skilled players too. Not heavy optimization, but effective enough to count as CR +1 or +2 from just base build choices even before tactics and gear selection.

Dual-wielding like that is kinda meh, and you need more than just a few levels for these kinds of encounters to have enough maneuvers. Maybe unarmed strikes combined with their slam attacks as secondary?

[Crake]

Caveat to the above: Shadow Hand offers some decent tactical teleportation options, including a swift action one at 5th level.

The 5th level one is a move action, the swift action one is level 7.

[lord_khaine]

I threw a couple of swordsage levels on some hill giants long ago, had them dual wielding large flind-bars too. It wasn't all that great. The low base attack of giant hit dice offset the strength boost, dual wielding dropped to-hit again, and they didn't have enough maneuvers to last long enough to make a difference.

I suspect thats partly because the maneuvers were not chosen right? a couple of NPC Giants should be pretty brutal in a melee. And be able to augument their defence against save or lose spells with diamond mind and Iron Heart maneuvers.

[Zombulian]

Dual-wielding like that is kinda meh, and you need more than just a few levels for these kinds of encounters to have enough maneuvers. Maybe unarmed strikes combined with their slam attacks as secondary?

Unarmed Swordsage Giants with Beast Strike?:smalltongue:

[The Viscount]

Big strength and size bonus to grapple mean that giants will be good at all the throws from Setting Sun. It would also make a giant with crushing weight of the mountain more of a threat.

Larger reach make Devoted Spirit maneuvers like thicket of blades more powerful, since a number involve your threatened area.

In general it seems like the advantage is felt best at the lower levels.

[danielxcutter]

Big strength and size bonus to grapple mean that giants will be good at all the throws from Setting Sun. It would also make a giant with crushing weight of the mountain more of a threat.

Larger reach make Devoted Spirit maneuvers like thicket of blades more powerful, since a number involve your threatened area.

In general it seems like the advantage is felt best at the lower levels.

Yes, I admit that. It's great for a flavorful NPC encounter, and it's also fairly powerful, but not much more than that.

[Telok]

I suspect thats partly because the maneuvers were not chosen right? a couple of NPC Giants should be pretty brutal in a melee. And be able to augument their defence against save or lose spells with diamond mind and Iron Heart maneuvers.

Well if you actually look at level 2 of swordsage and the base hill giant it really isn't much of a boost to power. It adds flexability in some things, but not as much power as you'd think. Especially if you use TWF and/or the tiger style. Low level swordsages don't have enough maneuvers to last through a fight, so it only makes a difference for about three rounds.

Now warblade or crusader, playing to the usual two hander and power attack methods, better equipment, and especially if you forget to go with the maneuver prerequsites. That will certainly be a boost to a giant's cr. But two levels of TWF swordsage on a hill giant is "interesting", not "strong".

[ShurikVch]

Desert Wind is for Sand Giant
Setting Sun - Sun Giant
Shadow Hand - Shadow Giant
Stone Dragon - Stone Giant
...
White Raven - ... Giant Raven? :smallamused:

[lord_khaine]

Well if you actually look at level 2 of swordsage and the base hill giant it really isn't much of a boost to power. It adds flexability in some things, but not as much power as you'd think. Especially if you use TWF and/or the tiger style. Low level swordsages don't have enough maneuvers to last through a fight, so it only makes a difference for about three rounds.

Now warblade or crusader, playing to the usual two hander and power attack methods, better equipment, and especially if you forget to go with the maneuver prerequsites. That will certainly be a boost to a giant's cr. But two levels of TWF swordsage on a hill giant is "interesting", not "strong".

Well it is true that a giant swordsage is likely to run out of steam around round 3, and does straight up need the adaptive style feat to function.

But there is really no rule that says a swordsage need to invest in the much weaker TWF style. It comes by default with power attack and a nice great club, thats all it need to ruin some unlucky adventures day.
Round one: Move and overwhelming Mountain strike someone to deny them their move action,
Round two: Flashing Sun + Searing blade for 3 attacks, at bonus 2d6+8 fire damage.
round three: Emerald Razor+Power attack for +20 bonus damage, thats going to be something like 2d8+35.

Thats if the giant Swordsage choses to invest in power. Comparing that to a Hill Giant who just got a couple levels of fighter and it is going to be strong.