Are Elan undead?

[Inaba]

Basically the main question is it the title: are elan undead?
I know what you're thinking "no you moron, it says right in the book that they are aberrations". This is all true but I'm not talking from a mechanical stand point, I'm looking more into the background of the race.

My group and I were discussing background of various races and the elans came up. There are two instances in the racial description of the elan that point towards them having some affiliation with animated corpses. In the personality it specifies the living as if it were a group that they did not belong to, either that or it was making the point that undead don't care if they are human or elan which doesn't make sense to me. The second point is less founded but still worth mentioning. It states that while in their trance the elan suffuses it's body with psionic energy, healing the hurts of the day, and restoring animation and resiliency to it's tissues. The point of interest being restoring animation, granted it could be taken in a more liberal sense to mean the same thing as it does for humans but it doesn't feel right.

Also as kind of a side note, the dolgath from magic of Eberron is a half living half undead creature that is listed as an aberrant. This doesn't have any connections with the elan other than pointing out that aberrants have been used as a bridge between living creatures and there undead counterparts.

A few more points that came up are: what would happen if the elan stepped into an anti-psionic field? (I know mechanically nothing) what would happen if the elan had an extended stay in an anti-psionic field, for more than a day or say a week, could they still effectively trance? What would happen to an Elan if the couldn't manage to get the 4 hours of trance they need? (It specifically says they do not sleep so they won't just doze off).

I'm not looking for any hard answers from a RAW perspective on this one I'm just looking for the opinion of the playground, so i extend a sincere thank you to anyone who finds themselves so inclined as to post their opinion. But if there is some form of "big book of the elan" out there I would love to take a look at it.

[Zombimode]

First: the class of "living" beeings in D&D is much larger any real-world understanding of the term. For instance it includes portions of the stuff from which all other matter is derived from (Elementals) and beings that are just personifications of ideas (the exemplar types of Outsiders). There are also living incorporeal creatures. Thus, the distinction between linving and unliving must lie somewhere else then in the physical.

Judging from your post you seem to hold humans or human-like creatures as the reference for what it means to be living. If you do that it is not surprising that Elans will seem strange when classified as living. But as explained this view is to narrow for the meaning of living in D&D.


Second, Elans are Aberrations. Aberrations is a funny type since it doesn't Group creature that are in a way similar. Aberration is negatively defined: every fundamentally "strange" but yet "living" being is an Aberration. They don't (Need to) share common characteristics. The Dolgath is an Aberration because it is living but does not fit in any other type. An Aboleth is an Aberration because HolyCrapEachOneKnowsEverythingEverKnownItHasNoFunc tionalBiologyAndHailFatherDagonAtR'lyeh. Two totally different creatures but classified as Aberrations because because each one is "strange" and aberrant in its own way.

[Inaba]

Ah, I see the confusion. I did not intend "living" to entail only humanoid creatures but rather to include anything that was not animated as a function of it's own biological or magical process thus including elementals which are naturally occurring things in d&d but excluding undead and constructs. I specified humans because that is what elans are changed from during their ritual.

As for the second point, yes aberrants are effectively a catch all type that things are stuck into when they don't fit anywhere else. The point of this section of the discussion was is the elan effectively reviving their body so that it maintains normal functionality of a living creature every day during trance? and what will happen if an elan does not trance?

[flappeercraft]

Well Aberration is a type for all the special snowflakes. Other than that I would argue that Elans are not Undead or in any case are another kind such as Deathless as they would be powered by psionics not negative energy. Deathless are powered by Positive energy and Undead negative energy but that only shows those 2 energies which are opposites. Finally, they have an actual Constitution score a difference from Deathless or Undead which could mean they are not any kind of undead.

[Inaba]

True, yes, as stated they are not undead in the mechanical sense. They have Constitution and they for all mechanical aspects they are considered "living". But is that life artificially maintained through the use of the psionic capabilities of the elan? And if they don't trance will they die? Or what would happen?

[Zombimode]

But is that life artificially maintained through the use of the psionic capabilities of the elan? An elan's Body may be animated through psionics. But that does not mean an Elan is undead. Being alive is not tied to a physical Body in D&D.


And if they don't trance will they die? Or what would happen?

You mean like humans die when they don't sleep?
Honestly I don't see the big difference here.

[martixy]

Btw, has anyone noticed that the Elan creation process is eerily similar to how illithids procreate?

[Inaba]

I think the title may be being taken as the literal question rather than the abstract inquiry it was intended as.
The issue I'm having is with the terms they use and the way it's written. Why do they state "living" instead of saying other races the way other entries do? And why does it say "restoring animation". Whats the difference between the way an elan extend their life and the way a lich does. We know nothing about this ritual. For all we know the human mind could be ripped from it's body which is then killed remolded and then reunited with it's mind that is then forced to sustain this new form of life with consistent influx of psionic energy.

The books don't go much into sleep deprivation but when a human forgoes sleep they get tired and unless forced to stay away they will eventually collapse and sleep. We know this just on how people actually work. However with elan and elves for that matter we don't know what will happen with forgone trance. Elves we can probably assume that they will also fall asleep because they do sleep as children and learn how to trance as they grow up. Elans on the other hand are made and it says they do not sleep. So the difference between if they "animate" their own body with psionic energy and if they just rest and empower their mind and body with psionic energy would be the difference of paralysis/death and losing their psionc racial abilities and falling asleep for a time.

[Bakkan]

For what it's worth, my headcanon is that the Elanification process introduces a biological dependence upon psionic energy to function. A chemical similar to lactic acid builds up in the Elan's body naturally, and high enough concentrations of it will cause his muscles to cramp and seize. The Elan can subconsciously use psionic energy to regulate the production of this chemical and allow him to remain mobile.

An anti-psionic field would not affect the Elan's ability to rejuvenate himself, just as it would not prevent a psion from recovering power points when resting in it. Going too long without trancing, however, would carry penalties similar to those of sleep deprivation in humanoid races, possibly with more extreme effects for extended periods of insomnia.

[Afgncaap5]

I think the Elan are a new kind of creature and that the nature of their makeup is so fundamentally different than those of a humanoid (or even a monstrous humanoid) that placing it into either of those two categories would be folly.

Having said that: the distinction between undead as a creature type and undead as an outlook on what it means to be such a creature is worth noting. Eberron's already been brought up, so let's take a look at the Undying Court: they're not undead, they're Deathless. Their creature type is different even though, by rights, they've got a lot of the "traditional" markers as undead, but where undead are affronts to nature that increase the amount of evil in the world just by existing, deathless seem to revel in holiness and the force of life (one might argue that they also threaten to unbalance things, but that's not overtly said and starts to get into speculation.) So... if you're of a mind that the Deathless are "pretty much undead", then you could make the same case for the Elan, even if the creature type is different.

[Anxe]

Most living creatures are powered by positive energy. That's why the Positive Energy Plane interacts with them in a good way (sort of).

Undead are creatures powered by negative energy. That's the separation between them and other beings at the most basic level.

Elan are, as others have said, powered by psionic energy. Considering the way they interact with the world they have to be tapping into some type of positive energy as well, but it appears to be done artificially instead of naturally like most other beings do. This lets the Elans dodge many of the hangups that a mortal soul inhabiting the same body would encounter (Aging, sleep, eating, etc.). Elans supply what the body needs with their mind energy and prevent the body from breaking down with that same energy.

In some schools of thought this could be considered "undead" as they aren't living in their bodies the same way most people do. It could also be considered a form of higher living. "They have complete control over their body functions! How Great!" There are many religious writings in the real world that describe this kind of control as being more in tune with your natural spirit (leaving out specifics because forum rules).

You could also interpret Elans the way I do in my campaign. They're possessed by Dionysus the Wine God and isn't psionic energy that keeps them alive, it's copious amounts of alcohol beamed into them directly by the Deity of Grapes himself.

[Nifft]

:elan: "Nope."

:haley: "He's very lively where it counts."


But seriously, Aberrations are twisted ("aberrant") forms of life. They are alive.

Undead are twisted mockeries of life: they are not alive. They are dead, yet they still move.

Both of them are "twisted", but one is alive, and the other is not alive. This is a significant difference.

[Necroticplague]

The mechanics inform us about the world. The fact that they have nothing mechanically in common with undead means that they also have nothing in the world in common with undead. They're still living and powered by Positive energy like most living things, albiet able to supplement this with psionic energies if needed (or desired).

'Restoring animation' seems like it just means that they get tired without trancing. After all, a human that goes without sleep will slow down from exhaustion, essentially becoming less animate. Presumably, so do Elan who go without trancing.

Now, an APF has no effect on an Elan's trancing ability, because such isn't given as a psionic ability. It's so internal to their nature, they can do it regardless of other conditions. The effects of trance deprivation are presumably similar to sleep deprivation: they begin to slow down as their energy runs out (or, at least isn't distributed properly), then go a bit nuts as their mind starts losing out on energy, and then they'd eventually collapsed into a form of 'forced trance' as their body works to repair the damage their neglect has done.

[legomaster00156]

No, Elan are not undead. Durkon is, though. Someone had to do it eventually.

[NomGarret]

While there are surface similarities, there are also similarities with another category: living constructs.

[Sagetim]

Basically the main question is it the title: are elan undead?
I know what you're thinking "no you moron, it says right in the book that they are aberrations". This is all true but I'm not talking from a mechanical stand point, I'm looking more into the background of the race.

My group and I were discussing background of various races and the elans came up. There are two instances in the racial description of the elan that point towards them having some affiliation with animated corpses. In the personality it specifies the living as if it were a group that they did not belong to, either that or it was making the point that undead don't care if they are human or elan which doesn't make sense to me. The second point is less founded but still worth mentioning. It states that while in their trance the elan suffuses it's body with psionic energy, healing the hurts of the day, and restoring animation and resiliency to it's tissues. The point of interest being restoring animation, granted it could be taken in a more liberal sense to mean the same thing as it does for humans but it doesn't feel right.

Also as kind of a side note, the dolgath from magic of Eberron is a half living half undead creature that is listed as an aberrant. This doesn't have any connections with the elan other than pointing out that aberrants have been used as a bridge between living creatures and there undead counterparts.

A few more points that came up are: what would happen if the elan stepped into an anti-psionic field? (I know mechanically nothing) what would happen if the elan had an extended stay in an anti-psionic field, for more than a day or say a week, could they still effectively trance? What would happen to an Elan if the couldn't manage to get the 4 hours of trance they need? (It specifically says they do not sleep so they won't just doze off).

I'm not looking for any hard answers from a RAW perspective on this one I'm just looking for the opinion of the playground, so i extend a sincere thank you to anyone who finds themselves so inclined as to post their opinion. But if there is some form of "big book of the elan" out there I would love to take a look at it.
requisite RAW answer that misses the point of the thread[/COLOR].]
To completely ignore you for a moment and answer this in a simple RAW perspective: They are not undead. They are abberations.

The game rules in 3.5 about the creation of Elan are pretty vague on purpose, but the end result always seemed to me to be that you were infusing your cells with so much psychic energy that they changed on a fundamental level. Due to this fundamental change, your character went through a kind of forced metamorphosis into being something that nature was all 'whaaaaat how dare. That's not how evolution works. Druids, get em.'

The aloofness from humanity/mortals is more of a cultural and perspective problem than a matter of undead 'cannot feel emotions' or what have you problem. The Elan has flooded their system with psychic energies, and, among other things, they have reset their body to a young adult state and not only do they age slower from that point on...they will never die of old age. So they're going to have problems relating to mortals, in the same way that elves Should have problems relating to pretty much everyone else. But instead of slapping Elves with any kind of penalty, Elves are 'just elfy' and given a pass by everyone else, and they're accepted as normal for what they are. But Elan are set up as being secretive conspiracy beings, with rather massive concerns about being exposed as Elan, and not wanting to be purged, they have to work extra hard to pass for human. In real life, it can be rather hard to pass for someone much younger than yourself (like a 60 year old trying to fit in with teenagers), and for Elan that problem is exacerbated because they have perspective on things that most regular people lack. At the least, they are bound to be above average, if not vastly more intelligent than your regular person. Because Elan come about from a process of careful selection, you don't have 'Elan Commoners' it's a race of adventurer classed only individuals (or at least, the vast majority of it consists of people with adventurer stat arrays).

Combine really high intelligence with not nearly as high wisdom, and a charisma penalty stacked on...you know...just because....and you wind up with a race of people who are bad at interacting with others because they're basically undying nerds with social anxiety.

To sidetrack for a moment, this is why I'm rather happy with the changes we got from Dreamscarred Press for the Pathfinder Elan. At the least they aren't being slapped with a stat penalty to 'balance' out some okay racial abilities.

If we want to wander into the land of just making stuff up, then the Elan's cell structure might change from regular blobby Animal Cells, to a somewhat more rigid structure (like what you have from plant cells) possibly with some crystal like qualities, since crystal seems to be a pretty common crafting motif for psionic stuff. That way, when an Elan gets wrecked by incoming damage, they can use that racial ability to emergency flood their body with power points to prevent the damage (reinfocing their body much as scifi ships with a structural integrity field hold themselves together under duress).

[ATHATH]

What if Elan weren't alive OR undead? Living creatures are sustained by positive energy and undead creatures are sustained by negative energy, right? What if Elans use psionic energy to sustain themselves instead of positive or negative energy?

[NontheistCleric]

What if Elan weren't alive OR undead? Living creatures are sustained by positive energy and undead creatures are sustained by negative energy, right? What if Elans use psionic energy to sustain themselves instead of positive or negative energy?

This theory is disproved by the fact that Elans are affected by positive and negative energy spells like any other living creature, showing that they are still a part of the positive-negative energy system. Examples of creatures powered solely by psionic or magical energy come in the form of constructs, and they, accordingly, are not affected by positive and negative energy spells.