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AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-01, 09:32 AM
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-k2kmu5uGTwdh5dTSlQ5iiWyYfjXvlaC_zUkb3kZQg4

A little thing I did in AP Econ today. A Wizard entirely centered around learning/improving cantrips. If you have any suggestions or criticisms, be sure to reply, and if you like it, feel free to check out my other homebrew classes. They’re all I ever post on here.

clash
2017-09-01, 03:57 PM
Thematically I could see this being a sorcerer easier. What is you logic for making it a wizard subclass?

JNAProductions
2017-09-01, 04:21 PM
I'm leery of giving half damage on a miss-hitting on an 8, that's a more than 25% improvement in damage for at-will.

The level 10 ability is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS-you get, for instance, the 1d10 multiple rays of Eldritch Blast, AND a rider (that can apply to four people, at level 17)? Hell no.

AvatarVecna
2017-09-01, 05:29 PM
I don't have an issue with the idea of a cantrip-specialist caster, but keeping it balanced would be weird because cantrips are an at-will ability for classes.

The 2nd lvl abilities seem fine and appropriate. Using Int for cantrips borrowed from other classes and getting extra cantrips seems fine, and gives you a lot of at-will versatility.

Homing Cantrip is a problem, although something like it would be fine. The issue is that it makes cantrips into guaranteed damage, which nobody is really supposed to have. The closest thing to that are some high-level spells that are "save for half" or something, but those are limited use abilities, so them doing nothing at all can be a waste of a high-level resource, so giving them some middling thing when they fail makes it hurt less. But cantrips are at-will, a missed cantrip is like a missed attack, but you wouldn't see people suggesting the fighter should deal a pittance of damage even when they miss - at least not for every attack. Beyond that, this ability doesn't really cover cantrips that offer saves instead of attacking AC. I would change it to something like this:


Your mastery of cantrips allows you to gain some worth even out of your failed attacks, correcting your aim and trying again when you fail. Whenever you fail to affect an opponent with a combat cantrip (whether by missing their AC or them making their save), your next attack with a combat cantrip against that foe within the next minute either has advantage on the attack roll (if it targets AC) or gives the opponent disadvantage on the saving throw (if it offers a save).

There are so many possibilities for Combination that the odds of there being broken ones is just too high (even without touching the example already given of such a broken combination). Rather than creating new spells, what about just spell combos, like this?


You've learned how to seamlessly blend two weak spells together into one more powerful effect, although it taxes you to cast so quickly. A number of times per short rest equal to your Intelligence modifier, if you have already used your action to cast a cantrip, you may cast another cantrip as a bonus action.

I like Fundamental Master, it's fitting to have a wider variety of cantrips. I almost wish it did more, like changing the range of cantrips or letting you change the saving throw or damage type or something, but ah well.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-01, 09:50 PM
Thematically I could see this being a sorcerer easier. What is you logic for making it a wizard subclass?A sorcerer based on cantrip's would be appropriate because innately magical beings should have limitless magic, but this homebrew is based mostly on learning and developing new cantrips, which sorcerers are explicitly very bad at. A sorcerers spells are part of who they are and not something they can pick and choose, thematically.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-01, 10:17 PM
Cantrip​ Savant and Fundamentalist are totally appropriate, balanced and fun.

Homing​ ​Cantrip might be too much. There's a reason no one has reliable at-will damage.

Combination is definitely too much. Cantrip's with special effects or range all deal reduced damage to make up for it. Instead, why not let the Wizard cast multiple cantrip's at reduced effect level? For example, if a cantrip would get stronger at 5th level, the Wizard can instead cast it as it is and cast another cantrip as it is. Maybe as one action, maybe as a bonus action.

Fundamental​ ​Master is basically Cantrip Savant again. It's underwhelming. Maybe allow the Wizard to burn spell slots to improve cantrips in some way.

JBPuffin
2017-09-01, 10:51 PM
Suggestions on other wording:

Cantrip Savant - At 2nd level when you adopt this tradition, choose another class with cantrips on their spell list. You add those cantrips to the wizard spell list and may learn them whenever you would learn a new wizard cantrip.

Fundamentalist - Your focus of the fundamentals of magic allows you to comprehend far more cantrips other individuals. When you adopt this tradition, you learn a number of cantrips equal to your proficiency bonus, and whenever your proficiency bonus increases, you learn a new cantrip.

Homing Cantrip - Starting at 6th level, you have enough control over your cantrips to ensure your targets feel their effect, even in a reduced capacity. Whenever you miss with a cantrip's spell attack, or the target successfully saves against a cantrip you cast, the target takes damage equal to your proficiency modifier. (Chosen because in most cases, it's less than half damage, but it sounds good because it implies growth). Found the PHB ability like this.

Combination - Yeah, this is spell research with an attempt to formulate it. A better approach might be:
Everyday Wonders - Beginning at 10th level, you have mastered enough fundamental spells to cast multiple cantrips simultaneously. Whenever you could make a ranged weapon attack, you can instead cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Why yes, I would like to see a someone grab EK and Action Surge+EA into four cantrips. It'd be rad :smallcool:. If that seems too crazy, totally go with Vecna's.

And yeah, Fundamental Master should totally grab Lore Wizard's spell-modifying idea: Upon reaching 14th level, you understand the simplest workings of magic to such an extent that you can reshape them as you wish. When you cast a cantrip that requires a saving throw, you can change the saving throw from one ability score to another (for example, requiring an Intelligence saving throw from a target of your Poison Spray).

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-01, 11:16 PM
Thematically I could see this being a sorcerer easier. What is you logic for making it a wizard subclass?

They way I thought about it, Wizards are dedicated to furthering their understanding of magic. As cantrips are the most basic, fundamental form of magic, I could see some Wizards dedicating their lives to studying the craft of cantrips.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-01, 11:18 PM
I'm leery of giving half damage on a miss-hitting on an 8, that's a more than 25% improvement in damage for at-will.

The level 10 ability is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS-you get, for instance, the 1d10 multiple rays of Eldritch Blast, AND a rider (that can apply to four people, at level 17)? Hell no.

The level 8 is actually modeled off of the evocation wizard, who has almost the exact same ability. In regards to the second, I have no idea how I forgot to specify it had to be a single target spell. Oops.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-01, 11:21 PM
I don't have an issue with the idea of a cantrip-specialist caster, but keeping it balanced would be weird because cantrips are an at-will ability for classes.

The 2nd lvl abilities seem fine and appropriate. Using Int for cantrips borrowed from other classes and getting extra cantrips seems fine, and gives you a lot of at-will versatility.

Homing Cantrip is a problem, although something like it would be fine. The issue is that it makes cantrips into guaranteed damage, which nobody is really supposed to have. The closest thing to that are some high-level spells that are "save for half" or something, but those are limited use abilities, so them doing nothing at all can be a waste of a high-level resource, so giving them some middling thing when they fail makes it hurt less. But cantrips are at-will, a missed cantrip is like a missed attack, but you wouldn't see people suggesting the fighter should deal a pittance of damage even when they miss - at least not for every attack. Beyond that, this ability doesn't really cover cantrips that offer saves instead of attacking AC. I would change it to something like this:



There are so many possibilities for Combination that the odds of there being broken ones is just too high (even without touching the example already given of such a broken combination). Rather than creating new spells, what about just spell combos, like this?



I like Fundamental Master, it's fitting to have a wider variety of cantrips. I almost wish it did more, like changing the range of cantrips or letting you change the saving throw or damage type or something, but ah well.

I specified it to another person the homing cantrip ability isn't actually far off from an existing ability in the book. Evocation wizards get the exact same ability, but for saves instead. I also realized I forgot to specify the spells have to be single target for level 10's ability. It's what I get for writing a class in the middle of econ.

JBPuffin
2017-09-01, 11:36 PM
Now that I see Potent Cantrip, I can't dispute Fundamental Master. Seems alright to me.

AvatarVecna
2017-09-02, 07:26 AM
I can.

1) Potent Cantrip applies to two wizard cantrips. Homing Cantrip applies to three.

2) Homing Cantrip can ve applied to attack cantrips outside of the wizard list.

3) Being 1st party material does not automatically make something balanced, so being similar to 1st party material does not automatically make something balanced either. I maintain my stance that guaranteed damage on an at-will option is a thing that shouldn't be. The evoker doing a bad thing first is not an excuse for you doing a bad thing as well.

It's not even necessarily that it's throwing the expected DPR, it's that it takes the RNG matter a lot less.

Kaskus
2017-09-02, 09:15 AM
One thing that I would like to see in a class like this is the ability to burn your spell slots for bonuses or effects with your cantrips.

Like you can cast two cantrips with an action but each costs a lvl 1 slot. Or a scaling cost. 1 cardio is normal action. 2 cantrips as an action costs a lvl 1 and lvl 2 slot. 3 would cost a lvl 2, lvl 3 and lvl 4 slot?

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-02, 09:47 AM
One thing that I would like to see in a class like this is the ability to burn your spell slots for bonuses or effects with your cantrips.

Like you can cast two cantrips with an action but each costs a lvl 1 slot. Or a scaling cost. 1 cardio is normal action. 2 cantrips as an action costs a lvl 1 and lvl 2 slot. 3 would cost a lvl 2, lvl 3 and lvl 4 slot?

I'm tempted to do a similar sorcerer archetype that would function like that.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-02, 09:49 AM
I can.

1) Potent Cantrip applies to two wizard cantrips. Homing Cantrip applies to three.

2) Homing Cantrip can ve applied to attack cantrips outside of the wizard list.

3) Being 1st party material does not automatically make something balanced, so being similar to 1st party material does not automatically make something balanced either. I maintain my stance that guaranteed damage on an at-will option is a thing that shouldn't be. The evoker doing a bad thing first is not an excuse for you doing a bad thing as well.

It's not even necessarily that it's throwing the expected DPR, it's that it takes the RNG matter a lot less.

What would you propose in its place? Because I think something like Homing Cantrip in its current form does give cantrips a definite boost and incentive to be used over other spells.

Magikeeper
2017-09-02, 11:00 AM
On a more minor note, Elemental Evil Player's Companion includes several more cantrips effected by Potent Cantrip.

> Create Bonfire, another conjuration spell. A strong damage / battlefield control cantrip in general.
> Thunderclap, an actual (bad) evocation spell.
> Frostbite, an actual evocation spell. It's not bad, but raw-damage wise it gets beat by the conjurations.

Also, IIRC potent cantrip doesn't specify it only works for Wizard spells.

-----------------

That said, I prefer Avatar of Vecna's version of of homing cantrip. It should just say "cantrip" instead of "combat cantrip" though - "combat cantrip" is not a defined term that I know of. I think it's one of those things that sounds clear until some group has a 30 minute argument over it. If you only want it to trigger when you miss or saves are failed just say that.

Furthermore, I think burning spellslots to boost cantrips is the way to go for the bigger effects. Otherwise you're trying to make something the wizard can do at-will be serious competition for something they can only do a few times per day...

AvatarVecna
2017-09-02, 11:13 AM
What would you propose in its place? Because I think something like Homing Cantrip in its current form does give cantrips a definite boost and incentive to be used over other spells.

1) Generally speaking, I don't think even a Cantrip specialist mage should have an at-will ability that is better to use than limited-use spells. The at-will use is thw incentive to use cantrips over spell slots, because you're not spending resources to cast them.

2) My first post proposed an alternate ability that sticks close to the fluff while not being as problematic as guaranteed at-will damage. It also proposed a replacement for Combination, but that's beside the oint right now.

3) If you're really wanting cantrips to compete with standard spells, rather than making your at-will abilities so amazing that they're equal to limited use abilities (making them inherently better due to a lack of usage limits), I would suggest giving cantrips some kind of Upcasting rules, the way a lot of slotted spells can be cast in a higher slot for greater effect. Off the top of my head, you could increase the range, damage, and the duration of side effects by their normal amount times the level of the slot used (so a 3rd lvl slot wpuld have x4 range and damage and the side effect would last 4 times as long, while casting it in a 9th lvl slot would have x10 range and damage and side effects would last 10 times as long). Again, very rough and simplistic idea, but I think if done right it would allow for cantrips to compete with regular spell slots without being overpowered.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-09-02, 12:15 PM
1) Generally speaking, I don't think even a Cantrip specialist mage should have an at-will ability that is better to use than limited-use spells. The at-will use is thw incentive to use cantrips over spell slots, because you're not spending resources to cast them.

2) My first post proposed an alternate ability that sticks close to the fluff while not being as problematic as guaranteed at-will damage. It also proposed a replacement for Combination, but that's beside the oint right now.

3) If you're really wanting cantrips to compete with standard spells, rather than making your at-will abilities so amazing that they're equal to limited use abilities (making them inherently better due to a lack of usage limits), I would suggest giving cantrips some kind of Upcasting rules, the way a lot of slotted spells can be cast in a higher slot for greater effect. Off the top of my head, you could increase the range, damage, and the duration of side effects by their normal amount times the level of the slot used (so a 3rd lvl slot wpuld have x4 range and damage and the side effect would last 4 times as long, while casting it in a 9th lvl slot would have x10 range and damage and side effects would last 10 times as long). Again, very rough and simplistic idea, but I think if done right it would allow for cantrips to compete with regular spell slots without being overpowered.

Hmmmm. So something like the existing homing cantrip ability, but you can spend a first level spell slot to deal half damage? Because while I like the idea of upcasting cantrips, that feels far more sorcerer-y. While I'm not against that for a sorcerer archetype, it feels like that's what it should be: a sorcerer archetype.

JNAProductions
2017-09-02, 12:17 PM
Hmmmm. So something like the existing homing cantrip ability, but you can spend a first level spell slot to deal half damage? Because while I like the idea of upcasting cantrips, that feels far more sorcerer-y. While I'm not against that for a sorcerer archetype, it feels like that's what it should be: a sorcerer archetype.

Basically, tie the homing cantrip to a resource or limit its use, and it should be okay. Making it cost spell slots or be Int mod/long rest or something like that should be fine.

JBPuffin
2017-09-02, 01:57 PM
I can.

1) Potent Cantrip applies to two wizard cantrips. Homing Cantrip applies to three.

2) Homing Cantrip can ve applied to attack cantrips outside of the wizard list.

3) Being 1st party material does not automatically make something balanced, so being similar to 1st party material does not automatically make something balanced either. I maintain my stance that guaranteed damage on an at-will option is a thing that shouldn't be. The evoker doing a bad thing first is not an excuse for you doing a bad thing as well.

It's not even necessarily that it's throwing the expected DPR, it's that it takes the RNG matter a lot less.

What makes the at-will damage bad besides no one else having it? It creates a niche for someone who should have that niche - someone dedicated to blowing things up should be able to blow things up even on a bad day.

If it's absolutely untenable, then upcasting works and, for someone who doesn't care about normal spells anymore, is actually pretty thematic, but I'm suspect of the notion that consistency is such a bad thing in this case without some in-play experience. This conversation does make me think my AT will end up going with Evoker from here on in, since I'm moving in the wizard direction and just can't decide on a tradition otherwise...

Y'know, it's funny: the only time I saw a wizard play for an extended amount of time, our DM was rather anti-magic without realizing how much it sucked for our party of three or four spellcasters, a TO archer ranger, and a dual-wielding Champion who knew they were major DPR. One fight, he had three out of five monsters who took half damage from all spells. You know how most wizards deal damage? Spells. The player liked Abjurer's shield, but eventually switched to Sorcerer because they felt like they couldn't do anything. It's experiences like that which showed me that practical balance trumps theoretical balance, and hopefully I'll be able to playtest some of my homebrew someday to see if it's that sort of balanced.

JNAProductions
2017-09-02, 02:01 PM
What makes the at-will damage bad besides no one else having it? It creates a niche for someone who should have that niche - someone dedicated to blowing things up should be able to blow things up even on a bad day.

So why shouldn't a Fighter do partial damage on a miss? A Wizard has many more options than a Fighter-why make them even better than a Fighter at at-will damage?

No, it's far too much for an always-on feature. It's not a bad idea-just needs limits.

JBPuffin
2017-09-02, 07:08 PM
So why shouldn't a Fighter do partial damage on a miss? A Wizard has many more options than a Fighter-why make them even better than a Fighter at at-will damage?

No, it's far too much for an always-on feature. It's not a bad idea-just needs limits.

*Shrug.* Give it to them, then. Or anyone, for that matter; Wizards hasn't done it yet, but any archetype that got something similar wouldn't be too far fetched. I'm wondering what specifically makes it so powerful - just that the wizard is Tier 0 with or without it, or something inherent in the game's math? Most fights my DMs do are death-by-many-cuts, so anything that makes that go faster would be muuuuch appreciated by our party, no matter how many of us had access to it.

Also, I'm taking your word for now, because there's no way in hell I'm calculating this (just don't care enough), but how much better is a wizard's average damage with this than a fighter? Like, with real math numbers - archery fighter (battlemaster, probs) vs cantrip wizard (in my mind, both prime examples of artillery pieces), longbow v toll the dead, who ends up on top? Wizard clearly has more options, but since all anyone cares about in 5eOp is damage, who actually has the lead there? Probably can line up both against GWM BM for comparison, just for kicks.

Magikeeper
2017-09-02, 09:28 PM
I think the 1/2 damage is not enough to be worth burning spellslots - I was thinking the 'bigger' effect would be, well, bigger.

That said, how about:

Homing Beacon - At 6th level, you learn how to utilize the remnants of your more potent spells to guide your cantrips. Any opponent hit by one of your 1st level or higher spells, or who fails a save against such a spell, becomes especially vulnerable to your cantrips for 1 minute. Such a foe takes half damage (if any) whenever one of your cantrips misses them, although they suffer no additional effect from the cantrip.

----

I also had some other random ideas:


Level 10 Ability:

Versatile Cantrips - Beginning at 10th level, whenever you cast a cantrip, you may do one of the following:

If the cantrip requires you make an attack roll, you can choose to instead have your target(s) make a reflex save. On a failure, the target is effected as though you succeeded on your attack roll.
If the cantrip targets a creature and requires them to make a saving throw, you may instead make an attack roll. On a hit, the target is effected as though they had failed their saving throw. The cantrip is effected by your homing beacon ability.
If the cantrip did any of the following types of damage: [Fire, Cold, Lighting, Thunder, Acid, Poison], you may choose to have it deal another of the listed types instead.


------------------

Level 14 Ability:

Reliable Cantrips
At level 14 you fully mastered the true essence of cantrips: dependability. Your cantrips are hereafter a part of your very being. This has the following effects:

Your cantrips no longer require verbal, somatic, and/or material components.
The spells and abilities of other creatures treat your cantrips as though they were 7th-level spells.



EDIT: Also, I posted what I think is a better version of homing beacon in a later post.

Sicarius Victis
2017-09-03, 12:19 AM
I agree with Magikeeper's Homing Beacon idea, although with that change, I would consider allowing save-based cantrips as well.

Personally, I believe that specifying Wizard cantrips for some of these features would be smart, as allowing them to combo well with EB/AB, for example, might not be a good idea.

Magikeeper
2017-09-03, 12:38 PM
*Shrug.* Give it to them, then. Or anyone, for that matter; Wizards hasn't done it yet, but any archetype that got something similar wouldn't be too far fetched.

GWF originally let fighters/rangers/paladins do half damage on a miss. It was changed due to playtesters complaining about it - I don't think it was balance issue, the idea of dealing half damage on a miss was just found to be "too confusing". So, I don't believe wizards will ever create an archtype that gets it unless they think of a good fluff explanation for it.

When GWF was changed, so was potent cantrip (which also did half damage on a miss at the time).

Amechra
2017-09-03, 02:06 PM
GWF originally let fighters/rangers/paladins do half damage on a miss. It was changed due to playtesters complaining about it - I don't think it was balance issue, the idea of dealing half damage on a miss was just found to be "too confusing". So, I don't believe wizards will ever create an archtype that gets it unless they think of a good fluff explanation for it.

When GWF was changed, so was potent cantrip (which also did half damage on a miss at the time).

They have put in a "damage on a miss" before, though: the Fell-Handed feat lets you deal damage equal to your Strength modifier with certain weapons when you attack with Disadvantage and "hit" with only the lower die (along with a benefit for hitting with both dice when you attack with advantage).

In general, though? Homing Cantrip feels like the name of a feature that grants Advantage on attack rolls with Cantrips. Make it a "stance" thing like the Barbarian's Reckless Attack, where you get Advantage on spell attacks, but can't Concentrate (or whatever).

Magikeeper
2017-09-03, 02:21 PM
They have put in a "damage on a miss" before, though: the Fell-Handed feat lets you deal damage equal to your Strength modifier with certain weapons when you attack with Disadvantage and "hit" with only the lower die (along with a benefit for hitting with both dice when you attack with advantage).

That's not quite the same - I'd say the mechanics of Fell-Handed more intuitively give the feeling of "I almost got a good hit in, but struck with enough force the opponent felt it anyway". To put it another way, a fighter with Fell-Handed feels like they didn't hit very well instead of simply missing. "but the higher of the two rolls would have hit" <- this bit makes the difference in feeling, I'd say.


EDIT:

Actually, let's step back a bit:

What is the true purpose of homing cantrip? It's to make cantrips more reliable damage dealers, right?

Homing Beacon - Starting at 6th level, whenever you cast a 1st level or higher spell that targets one or more creatures you may, as a bonus action, use the lingering residue of the spell to guide future attacks against one of those creatures. The next time you would miss the chosen creature with a cantrip you hit them instead. This effect ends when one of your misses is turned into a hit, when you use this ability again, or after one minute (whichever happens first).

---

There. That's less convoluted, avoids damaging on a miss entirely, and gives a reason to use higher level spells in battle. As an added benefit it works well with all attack roll cantrips instead of giving an even stronger push towards the ones that deal the most damage.

If you went with the level 10 versatile cantrip ability I suggested it'd work well with that as well.

JBPuffin
2017-09-03, 11:48 PM
GWF originally let fighters/rangers/paladins do half damage on a miss. It was changed due to playtesters complaining about it - I don't think it was balance issue, the idea of dealing half damage on a miss was just found to be "too confusing". So, I don't believe wizards will ever create an archtype that gets it unless they think of a good fluff explanation for it.

When GWF was changed, so was potent cantrip (which also did half damage on a miss at the time).

But as a wizard, shouldn't the player be used to dealing half damage? I get fighters, but with Burning Hands and things...it strikes me as odd. Something about the difference between attack rolls and saving throws? Was GWF Power Attack+Cleave (half damage on miss) at the time, or was it Cleave instead of the Power Attack? I feel like the latter would be more fitting, but it was during playtesting.

Homing Stance and Homing Beacon are cool. Could actually be interesting to have on the same archetype at different levels.