Improving Demons

[OverdrivePrime]

One of the weirdest shifts in 5e to me is how it seems like Fiends are severely nerfed from their former glory. Now, obviously, as a DM, I can add caster levels or inherent spells to any creature I want, but it's strange that the default version of most fiends is a pushover compared to the demons and devils I remember from 3.5 and Pathfinder. Or am I reading them wrong?

I've a recurring Glabrezu in my campaign (running since we were playing in 3.5), and just for continuity's sake I'm giving it all of the spells and natural abilities it had in 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#glabrezu) as an advanced 18hd glabrezu.

What have you done to make your demons and devils more dangerous?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

There's a good chance you're reading them wrong... Kind of. Everything is nerfed compared to 3.5, including the players. Fiends are still comparatively strong. Balors are still CR 19 and Pit Fiends are still CR 20.

That said, the weakening isn't distributed evenly, so some types of demons fared better than others.

Personally, I've never been happy with the power load out of Glabrezu, so I tend to give them abilities like Geass, since they're supposed to be tempters.

[Beelzebubba]

I want to give them back their AD&D spell-like abilities, and tweaking them to have more Legendary Action style economy.

Some passive effects, like a Balor's Detect Magic or Read Magic, should always be on.

See Invisibility or Darkness should be a bonus action to invoke, and it should probably be able to hold Concentration on either one of those while casting it's other, more offensive spell effects like Levitation or Fear. So, it can have two 'tiers' of Concentration going at the same time. One to mess with the party's vision or improve it's own, and one to use in lieu of it's physical attacks.

Each time they take damage, they only have to check on one of those Concentration effects being disrupted, determined randomly.

I'm considering giving Balor Advantage on Concentration checks. That is probably way too strong.

I'll run it that way a few times and see how it works.

[Unoriginal]

One of the weirdest shifts in 5e to me is how it seems like Fiends are severely nerfed from their former glory. Now, obviously, as a DM, I can add caster levels or inherent spells to any creature I want, but it's strange that the default version of most fiends is a pushover compared to the demons and devils I remember from 3.5 and Pathfinder. Or am I reading them wrong?

I've a recurring Glabrezu in my campaign (running since we were playing in 3.5), and just for continuity's sake I'm giving it all of the spells and natural abilities it had in 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#glabrezu) as an advanced 18hd glabrezu.

What have you done to make your demons and devils more dangerous?

Have you tried to run demons against PCs?

Because given their stats, they are not pushovers. The idea that powerful= must be able to cast spells is just not a principle of 5e.

But the question is, why do you think they're pushovers, aside from not having as much spell-like abilities as in other editions?

Sorry if I come up as confrontational.

[MrStabby]

I do think spells and auras and special abilities are the way to go.

I would want to up the supernatural theme rather than running them as more mundane beasts.

Are they too weak? Maybe but I see their power as being much more insidious. I think it depends how you play them - if you play something smart it will always be dangerous. If you play anything dumb then it becomes easier.

If you have the PCs walk into a room and then see fiends - then fiends are a pushover. If you have them lead by a smarter enemy that attacks the party at their weakest then they are tougher.

[Beelzebubba]

But the question is, why do you think they're pushovers, aside from not having as much spell-like abilities as in other editions?

For me, it's that they're boring. They're just hit point sponges.

In one encounter in AD&D, the utter chaos a single well-played demon could bring was amazing. Shroud half the party in Darkness as a surprise round, blast the rest with Fear to make the retainers and hirelings all scatter, use Telekenesis to throw an unsuspecting heavily-armored fighter into a pool of acid, throw Pyrotechnics at the spellcasters so they are blinded and can't cast... without even seeing the thing yet because it's levitated 50' off the ground! The more powerful ones with Symbol of Fear, Illusion, and Polymorph Self could mess with your head even more.

The combats were terrifying, and really brought home that you were facing an entirely different class of creature. They didn't need much in the nature of hit points. Just finding the damn things was hard enough. And that was before they started Gating in reinforcements!

The 5E Demons are just hit point sponges. Roll to hit, roll damage. OK, take damage. Roll to hit, damage. OK, take damage. Sure, they have speed and lots of hit points and do lots of damage, but there's nothing innately diabolical about them. Their powers don't lend themselves to anything other than hitting and being hit.

For an example of a 5E monster done right, look at the Beholder. That thing is terrifying, and to me is a perfect translation of what made it so iconic. By comparison, a 5E Balor is a yawn-fest.

[Unoriginal]

For me, it's that they're boring. They're just hit point sponges.

In one encounter in AD&D, the utter chaos a single well-played demon could bring was amazing. Shroud half the party in Darkness as a surprise round, blast the rest with Fear to make the retainers and hirelings all scatter, use Telekenesis to throw an unsuspecting heavily-armored fighter into a pool of acid, throw Pyrotechnics at the spellcasters so they are blinded and can't cast... without even seeing the thing yet because it's levitated 50' off the ground! The more powerful ones with Symbol of Fear, Illusion, and Polymorph Self could mess with your head even more.

The combats were terrifying, and really brought home that you were facing an entirely different class of creature. They didn't need much in the nature of hit points. Just finding the damn things was hard enough. And that was before they started Gating in reinforcements!

The 5E Demons are just hit point sponges. Roll to hit, roll damage. OK, take damage. Roll to hit, damage. OK, take damage. Sure, they have speed and lots of hit points and do lots of damage, but there's nothing innately diabolical about them. Their powers don't lend themselves to anything other than hitting and being hit.

For an example of a 5E monster done right, look at the Beholder. That thing is terrifying, and to me is a perfect translation of what made it so iconic. By comparison, a 5E Balor is a yawn-fest.

A huge flying demon whose mere presence can make people burst into flames, who can pull people to them from 25ft away with their fire whip and then stab them with their lightning sword, and whose death triggers an huge explosions is so boring for you?

Monsters are interesting and tactically complex if you make them so, not because they have spells. It's like saying that knights are sub-par enemies and that the DM should use spellcasters instead.


Beside, each of the demons in the MM have at least one feature that gives them other options than just "roll to hit and roll damages".

[Beelzebubba]

This is weird, you're taking it so personally.


A huge flying demon whose mere presence can make people burst into flames, who can pull people to them from 25ft away with their fire whip and then stab them with their lightning sword, and whose death triggers an huge explosions is so boring for you?

You ignore the exact part of my post that answers that perfectly, in order to post a lamely combative rhetorical question?

(PS - my answer is paragraph 2. Read it again.)


Monsters are interesting and tactically complex if you make them so, not because they have spells. It's like saying that knights are sub-par enemies and that the DM should use spellcasters instead.

Knights, compared to Beholders, are sub par enemies.


Beside, each of the demons in the MM have at least one feature that gives them other options than just "roll to hit and roll damages".

Pity. They used to have 5 or 6.

Only the Glabrezu escaped significant nerfing.

[90sMusic]

I agree, fiends aren't what they used to be.

A succubus is one of my favorite type of monsters in D&D because if it is done well, you don't even realize it is a succubus until way, way later. They don't like to fight, preferring instead to trick others into fighting on their behalf or simply running away. Trying to kill powerful adventurers with your own claws is a high risk, low reward scenario they wouldn't want to be involved in.

Succubi in 5e are absolute garbage. They have a charm they can use on one person at a time, they can shapechange, and that is about it.

So I have beefed my 5e succubi to be a bit more in line with pathfinder succubi and incorporates some of the new features of 5e.

So a pathfinder succubus is immune to electricity, fire and poison and has acid and cold resist. I feel like that is too many immunities for 5e, but I did give her immunity to fire because honestly all fiends should be immune to fire.

I left Etherealness and their new Charm alone, but I gave them at-will detect thoughts, and modified it to work in the same way the doppleganger's mind reading ability works that grants them advantage on deception, persuasion, and insight checks against someone whose mind they are reading.

They can cast suggestion, teleport, and vampiric touch at will. They retain their shapechange and telepathy, though it is increased to 100 feet. They know Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Common, and Draconic as languages but they are also constantly under the effect of the Tongues spell so they can speak any language unless something is blocking their magic somehow.

They can also cast Teleport at will, always arriving exactly where they wish to be with no chance of failure, just as they had Greater Teleport at will in pathfinder.

I didn't modify their ability scores, but gave them expertise in the social skills (deception, persuasion, insight).

They are notoriously difficult to kill because they never stand and fight, always choosing to run away and doing so quite easily with etherealness and teleport. It takes special setup and preparation to kill one, but if you do actually corner one it isn't a very difficult fight at all.

I also make them fill the role of the old school Contract Devils who go around offering deals in exchange for things, sometimes i'll give them the ability to cast Wish but it can only be used as payment for taking someone's soul.

[Unoriginal]

You ignore the exact part of my post that answers that perfectly, in order to post a lamely combative rhetorical question?

(PS - my answer is paragraph 2. Read it again.)

I sincerely apologize for acting like a jerk. On the other hand, I don't see how your second paragraph answers it perfectly. Would you think the Balor less boring if it had, say, telekinesis rather than a fire aura?



Knights, compared to Beholders, are sub par enemies.

How? A knight can be an awesome character, a great boss and a joy to battle, just like a beholder can.





I agree, fiends aren't what they used to be.

A succubus is one of my favorite type of monsters in D&D because if it is done well, you don't even realize it is a succubus until way, way later. They don't like to fight, preferring instead to trick others into fighting on their behalf or simply running away. Trying to kill powerful adventurers with your own claws is a high risk, low reward scenario they wouldn't want to be involved in.

Succubi in 5e are absolute garbage. They have a charm they can use on one person at a time, they can shapechange, and that is about it.

So I have beefed my 5e succubi to be a bit more in line with pathfinder succubi and incorporates some of the new features of 5e.

So a pathfinder succubus is immune to electricity, fire and poison and has acid and cold resist. I feel like that is too many immunities for 5e, but I did give her immunity to fire because honestly all fiends should be immune to fire.

I left Etherealness and their new Charm alone, but I gave them at-will detect thoughts, and modified it to work in the same way the doppleganger's mind reading ability works that grants them advantage on deception, persuasion, and insight checks against someone whose mind they are reading.

They can cast suggestion, teleport, and vampiric touch at will. They retain their shapechange and telepathy, though it is increased to 100 feet. They know Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Common, and Draconic as languages but they are also constantly under the effect of the Tongues spell so they can speak any language unless something is blocking their magic somehow.

They can also cast Teleport at will, always arriving exactly where they wish to be with no chance of failure, just as they had Greater Teleport at will in pathfinder.

I didn't modify their ability scores, but gave them expertise in the social skills (deception, persuasion, insight).

They are notoriously difficult to kill because they never stand and fight, always choosing to run away and doing so quite easily with etherealness and teleport. It takes special setup and preparation to kill one, but if you do actually corner one it isn't a very difficult fight at all.

I also make them fill the role of the old school Contract Devils who go around offering deals in exchange for things, sometimes i'll give them the ability to cast Wish but it can only be used as payment for taking someone's soul.

Isn't it kind of self-contradicting to say that succubi shouldn't fight adventurers because it's high risk, low reward, but then give them a very large boost in combat capacities?

5e's succubi are already good at tempting and manipulating behind the scenes, and while I could see one have the added capacities you're proposing, it would need to be a particularly powerful one, like a Queen or an Arch-succubus

[MaxWilson]

I sincerely apologize for acting like a jerk. On the other hand, I don't see how your second paragraph answers it perfectly. Would you think the Balor less boring if it had, say, telekinesis rather than a fire aura?

Give it a few crowd control options (in AD&D they had at-will Symbol, and some Fireball would be nice too), some out-of-combat options (Suggestion, Geas, Animate Dead), and some strategic mobility options (Teleport Without Error). Give it Athletics proficiency too, and immunity to nonmagical weapons that aren't blessed and/or wrought from cold iron.

A sack of HP with a lightning sword and a death explosion is still just a sack of HP. Make it something that can credibly play a role in a campaign (as opposed to a fight scene). Since it's a demon/Tanar'ri, it doesn't necessarily have to be a complicated role, but at least make it plausibly capable of subduing a whole orc tribe single-handedly so that when it shows up at the head of the orc tribe everything makes sense.

[Unoriginal]

A sack of HP with a lightning sword and a death explosion is still just a sack of HP. Make it something that can credibly play a role in a campaign (as opposed to a fight scene). Since it's a demon/Tanar'ri, it doesn't necessarily have to be a complicated role, but at least make it plausibly capable of subduing a whole orc tribe single-handedly so that when it shows up at the head of the orc tribe everything makes sense.

I...what?

How are Balors unable to play a role in a campaign credibly?

They have genius intellect, inhumanly high charisma, and are very wise. Why would they not be able to fit complicated roles?

One single Balor could easily subdue an entire orc tribe without breaking a sweat.

Also, all those "sack of HP" or "HP sponge" complains seem to me to be the same kind of reasoning that people use to pretend Fighters are sub-par. You don't need spells or special powers to be an interesting combatant, and you sure as hell don't need them to be a compelling antagonist.

Or is a Red Dragon also "just a sack of HP" ?

[Solunaris]

I too find Demon's to be sub-par this edition. Now, that might just come from the fact that the only time I faced one was with a DM who isn't particularly great at combat so a group of 11th level Adventurers took out a slightly modified Pit Fiend (it was missing it's tail). We trounced that thing hard, and between the Cleric and Swordcerer bolstering the party's defenses and the Fighter and Swordcerer standing as a front line it didn't stand a chance. In fact, it wasted a few turns trying to cast spells at us only for the Bard to completely shut it down with Counterspell.

Really, it ended up as a slugging match between the party and the Pit Fiend with the party just barely coming out on top because of Divine Smite and Sentinel.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Pity. They used to have 5 or 6.

Only the Glabrezu escaped significant nerfing.

I think the problem is that eventually, everything was having 7 or 8 special abilities, and a handful of other special rules, which could make everything feel samesy (snowflakes in an avalanche) and definitely made things twiddly.

Now, that's not saying your critique isn't fair. Why is the Balor basically "DPR + Grab + Mobility" while the Androsphinx is this very complicated, impactful, memorable threat? Why did they move the special away from the iconic Demons and Devils? Why aren't they the snowflakes, and things like Androsphinxes the late autumn ground?

[Beelzebubba]

I sincerely apologize for acting like a jerk. On the other hand, I don't see how your second paragraph answers it perfectly. Would you think the Balor less boring if it had, say, telekinesis rather than a fire aura?

Thanks for the apology. I was a bit overboard too.

Look at a Type IV Demon from AD&D. This when spells weren't 'Concentration', so it could have a bunch going at the same time.
- Detect Magic
- Read Languages
- Create Darkness
- Create Illusion
- Project Image
- Cause Fear
- Levitate
- Dispel Magic
- Polymorph Self
- Telekinesis up to 500 pounds
- Symbol of Fear or Discord
- 60% chance to Gate in another Demon, possibly as powerful as itself
- Psionics - which in AD&D was a whole other system that few characters had defenses for

Imagine if you could link all these together, one after another.
- Polymorph into a fly to spy on the adventurers for a while
- Detect Magic to get a full understanding of who has the most enchantments and what kind they are
- Read their minds with Psionics when they're distracted or engaged in other combats to really get great intel

Then set up an ambush:
- Teleport to a room ahead of them, Draw a Symbol of Discord in a visible place
- Use Telekinesis to cover the Symbol with something - say, a shield
- Polymorph into a human that looks like a prisoner in rags
- When the party is in the room, talking to the poor prisoner, then drop the Shield hard, drawing everyone's attention to it and revealing the Symbol - which starts the party bickering among themselves and even fighting - and then after that ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE.

While the party is fighting amongst itself, the Demon mixes it up even further. Darkness, Fear, Levitating the fighter up to the ceiling while it changes back to it's natural form and rips the squishy casters to shreds, dropping Dispel Magic to nuke their buffs and ruin their potions, teleporting away to Gate in another demon, etcetera.

This one demon, if played with cunning, can keep an entire party of high-level adventurers busy for a full session, or more.

The 5E demons can't even begin to approach that. They have many more hit points, and deal more in direct damage, but for sheer deviousness they have no comparable tools.

[Unoriginal]

I too find Demon's to be sub-par this edition. Now, that might just come from the fact that the only time I faced one was with a DM who isn't particularly great at combat so a group of 11th level Adventurers took out a slightly modified Pit Fiend (it was missing it's tail). We trounced that thing hard, and between the Cleric and Swordcerer bolstering the party's defenses and the Fighter and Swordcerer standing as a front line it didn't stand a chance. In fact, it wasted a few turns trying to cast spells at us only for the Bard to completely shut it down with Counterspell.

Really, it ended up as a slugging match between the party and the Pit Fiend with the party just barely coming out on top because of Divine Smite and Sentinel.

Seems your DM made the Fiend weaker on purpose, or as you said isn't great at combats.

I mean, damage output and saves aside, a Pit Fiend could have just kept flying away from your group and casted its unlimited Fireballs 'til the Bard spent all their spell slots in Counterspell.



I think the problem is that eventually, everything was having 7 or 8 special abilities, and a handful of other special rules, which could make everything feel samesy (snowflakes in an avalanche) and definitely made things twiddly.

Now, that's not saying your critique isn't fair. Why is the Balor basically "DPR + Grab + Mobility" while the Androsphinx is this very complicated, impactful, memorable threat? Why did they move the special away from the iconic Demons and Devils? Why aren't they the snowflakes, and things like Androsphinxes the late autumn ground?

What makes you say that an Androsphinx is a very complicated, impactful or memorable threat by default?

Sure, they have some powers, but that doesn't make them complicated or impactful. They're only as great as a DM manages to make them be. Unless there is something inherently awesome about being able to cast Flame Strike and of roaring that I'm missing.

Though I admit that Legendary actions for the most powerful Fiends would have been nice, since other "elite" monsters like Ancient Dragons have them.





This one demon, if played with cunning, can keep an entire party of high-level adventurers busy for a full session, or more.

The 5E demons can't even begin to approach that. They have many more hit points, and deal more in direct damage, but for sheer deviousness they have no comparable tools.

Seems to me it was less deviousness and more having a lot of magic.

I mean, I get the appeal of "lots of superpower", the same thing that attract people to Pathfinder or the like, but a cunning 5e Balor is still more than able to observe its enemies in advance, discover their weaknesses and what kind of ressources they have, separate the fragile casters from the meatshields, and even manipulate the PCs into mind-screws, and all this without needing spells to do it.

[90sMusic]

Isn't it kind of self-contradicting to say that succubi shouldn't fight adventurers because it's high risk, low reward, but then give them a very large boost in combat capacities?

5e's succubi are already good at tempting and manipulating behind the scenes, and while I could see one have the added capacities you're proposing, it would need to be a particularly powerful one, like a Queen or an Arch-succubus

Err, I didn't boost their combat ability though. The only combat-related thing I even gave them was at-will vampiric touch but that is a succubus staple and it fits with the whole sustaining themselves through damaging others theme. Not sure where you're getting the large boost in combat idea from?

Their abilities are oriented towards specialized manipulation and rapidly traveling around as well as spying. They are not strong in combat, not at all. They avoid fighting unless they have absolutely no other choice because they have so many ways to avoid combat entirely.

Forgot to mention their Energy Drain and Profane Gift abilities though. Profane Gift works exactly like it did in pathfinder, letting her touch a creature to grant them a +2 bonus to any ability score that can only be removed by dispelled by remove curse or if she wants to remove it. While it is on a creature, they can communicate with it telepathically over any distance and can cast suggestion on it at any distance as well.

Energy Drain in 5e has to be used on a willing creature or a charmed creature and it deals a set amount of psychic damage. In pathfinder, it gave a negative level and simultaneously cast suggestion on the creature to compel it to kiss her again. Since negative levels aren't a thing in 5e, I decided on a compromise here that I think works a little better than trying to make negative levels in 5e or just doing raw psychic damage. Instead, when she kisses something, it gives them one level of exhaustion and then has the suggestion to kiss her again.

One on one, they are super dangerous to deal with because she can wrap you around her little finger and just make out with you until you die, but against even two people, she can't keep both of you controlled at the same time, so she scurries off.

They're major threats, but they don't fight. And if they do, they are pretty terrible at it.

[Unoriginal]

Err, I didn't boost their combat ability though. The only combat-related thing I even gave them was at-will vampiric touch but that is a succubus staple and it fits with the whole sustaining themselves through damaging others theme. Not sure where you're getting the large boost in combat idea from?

Their abilities are oriented towards specialized manipulation and rapidly traveling around as well as spying. They are not strong in combat, not at all. They avoid fighting unless they have absolutely no other choice because they have so many ways to avoid combat entirely.

Fair enough. I guess I've misinterpreted what you wrote, or thought that teleport + vampire touch at will was more dangerous than it is.

[Solunaris]

Seems your DM made the Fiend weaker on purpose, or as you said isn't great at combats.

I mean, damage output and saves aside, a Pit Fiend could have just kept flying away from your group and casted its unlimited Fireballs 'til the Bard spent all their spell slots in Counterspell.


The problem with that idea was that the Fighter with his +1 weapon managed and Sentinel managed to get right up on the Pit Fiend. It tried to disengage and fly away but the Fighter was relentless in hitting when it counted. It couldn't escape from him because Sentinel allowed the Fighter to get his attack anyway and reduced the Pit Fiend's movement to 0 after a hit.

The real problem for it ended up being action economy, as we just had too many actions that we could use to shut it down completely. That, and the DM wasn't smart about it by allowing us to lure it into an open area with nice, long fields of vision and cover for the Bard and Cleric.

[90sMusic]

The problem with that idea was that the Fighter with his +1 weapon managed and Sentinel managed to get right up on the Pit Fiend. It tried to disengage and fly away but the Fighter was relentless in hitting when it counted. It couldn't escape from him because Sentinel allowed the Fighter to get his attack anyway and reduced the Pit Fiend's movement to 0 after a hit.

The real problem for it ended up being action economy, as we just had too many actions that we could use to shut it down completely. That, and the DM wasn't smart about it by allowing us to lure it into an open area with nice, long fields of vision and cover for the Bard and Cleric.

If a fighter was using sentinel to keep one of my pit fiends from moving away, I would've just grappled the fighter then flew straight up. He can't take that reaction to stop him since he isn't moving away from him. Then all he has to do is drop him. Boom, problem solved. ;)

[MinotaurWarrior]

What makes you say that an Androsphinx is a very complicated, impactful or memorable threat by default?

Sure, they have some powers, but that doesn't make them complicated or impactful. They're only as great as a DM manages to make them be. Unless there is something inherently awesome about being able to cast Flame Strike and of roaring that I'm missing.

Though I admit that Legendary actions for the most powerful Fiends would have been nice, since other "elite" monsters like Ancient Dragons have them.


The complicated question is fairly objective. I think you should be able to see it on your own.

For impact: the androsphinx can take more actions, and has far more ways to affect players on their turns. At most, a Balor can do some damage to the players and grapple one. The androsphinx can, in one turn, make the PCs save-vs-paralysis and then cast Banishment on someone who's still free, or make two claw attacks. That's a bigger impact.

In a fight vs a Balor (not a Balor + environmental hazards, or a balor + hostage. Just a Balor), many types of PCs can remain on autopilot. "I charge forward and swing with my sword."

You can't do that against an Androsphinx. You need to come up with something else.

For memorability: the Androsphinx's ability to impact players and force them to go off-script, as well as it's uniqueness make it more memorable. Human beings are more likely to remember novel experiences, and experiences that forced them to go off script.

Now, of course, a DM can add other elements to make the Balor fight more interesting. A DM can also botch a fight with an Androsphinx to make it boring. And the players also bring things to the table. The discussion, however, isn't about what the DM or the players are contributing. It's just about the monsters.

[Unoriginal]

The problem with that idea was that the Fighter with his +1 weapon managed and Sentinel managed to get right up on the Pit Fiend. It tried to disengage and fly away but the Fighter was relentless in hitting when it counted. It couldn't escape from him because Sentinel allowed the Fighter to get his attack anyway and reduced the Pit Fiend's movement to 0 after a hit.

The real problem for it ended up being action economy, as we just had too many actions that we could use to shut it down completely. That, and the DM wasn't smart about it by allowing us to lure it into an open area with nice, long fields of vision and cover for the Bard and Cleric.


If a fighter was using sentinel to keep one of my pit fiends from moving away, I would've just grappled the fighter then flew straight up. He can't take that reaction to stop him since he isn't moving away from him. Then all he has to do is drop him. Boom, problem solved. ;)

That, or even just Teleport away on top of where the Bard is hiding. Also, the Fighter would have lost 10 HP each time he hit the Balor, so even with help I don't think he would have lasted long

EDIT:

Funny thing with the "grapple and drop" thing is that since it's the *Fighter* who'd move away from the Balor, it'd be the Balor who would have an AoO

[Solunaris]

If a fighter was using sentinel to keep one of my pit fiends from moving away, I would've just grappled the fighter then flew straight up. He can't take that reaction to stop him since he isn't moving away from him. Then all he has to do is drop him. Boom, problem solved. ;)

And there is where the "the DM is not great at combat" comes into play. Of course, it'd still not be a super great chance of success what with the Fighter having proficiency in Athletics and a 20 Strength but at 4 attacks a round it could've worked. Actually, that would have been a hilarious strategy for the Fighter to use to keep it grounded if he didn't have Sentinel.

[Solunaris]

That, or even just Teleport away on top of where the Bard is hiding. Also, the Fighter would have lost 10 HP each time he hit the Balor, so even with help I don't think he would have lasted long

It was a Pit Fiend, not a Balor. But, for clarification the Fighter was aside a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 9 so there was on demand healing if need be.

[Unoriginal]

It was a Pit Fiend, not a Balor. But, for clarification the Fighter was aside a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 9 so there was on demand healing if need be.

My bad. I must say I'm not sure how much healing they could provide

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've tried giving various monsters lists of options, and it's never worked out as designed. Part of that may be due to lack of skill on my part, but at least is due to system assumptions:

Action Economy
Solo fights are generally a bad idea. In fact, they should (in my opinion) be avoided unless both a) the threat is higher CR than the party average level and b) the threat has legendary and/or lair actions. Otherwise, they won't get to actually use many of their options--they'll be locked-down and nova'd in a few rounds. The best fights for me end up being 3-4 lower CR creatures or one big baddy + a swarm of much lower CR creatures/environmental effects/etc. In those cases, there's enough tactical flexibility to mitigate the wall-of-HP effect.

Analysis Paralysis
One of the things I like about 5e is that the average combat round goes pretty quick. With experienced players, 30 seconds per person (so about 2-3 minutes per round) is normal. Adding lots of options requires the DM to spend a lot more time on that monster. If several have expanded options lists (see above for why you'd need more than 1), this time increases badly. And that's DM time, which is the least interesting for the players (in my experience).

A forgotten option is an option that didn't really exist
It's hard enough to keep mental track of what everything on the battlefield can do. Double the move-set of a few creatures, and you're looking at easily forgetting what each can do (especially if you're hurrying). That's the equivalent of not giving them the options to begin with.

As a side note, you can always give them non-combat abilities freely. The stat block is not everything they can do, but merely the important stuff for conflicts with PCs.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I too find Demon's to be sub-par this edition. Now, that might just come from the fact that the only time I faced one was with a DM who isn't particularly great at combat so a group of 11th level Adventurers took out a slightly modified Pit Fiend (it was missing it's tail). .
I'm pretty sure a lot of this is your DM.


A forgotten option is an option that didn't really exist
It's hard enough to keep mental track of what everything on the battlefield can do. Double the move-set of a few creatures, and you're looking at easily forgetting what each can do (especially if you're hurrying). That's the equivalent of not giving them the options to begin with.

As a side note, you can always give them non-combat abilities freely. The stat block is not everything they can do, but merely the important stuff for conflicts with PCs.

This.

I agree that 5th edition might have gone a little overboard in reducing spell like abilities but the truth is that many Outsiders had too many and/or redundant powers in previous editions.

So, feel free to add a few more powers (as long as you consider CR) but don't go overboard or you'll just have a list of abilities that never get used.

Now, non-combat abilities on the other hand are great. I mentioned my habit of giving Glabrezu Geass earlier in the thread. That's not something for them to use in a fight, that's something they cast to enforce contracts. Similarly, I homebrewed an updated Rukarazyll for 5th edition and I gave them Goodberry and Remove Disease, again, not for fights but because they're infiltrators that often like to pose as healers.

Also, consider spreading them around. Having a minion that can do infiltration work for it's master makes more sense than having a Pit Fiend or a Balor wasting time spying on people directly.

[MaxWilson]

One single Balor could easily subdue an entire orc tribe without breaking a sweat.

False.


Also, all those "sack of HP" or "HP sponge" complains seem to me to be the same kind of reasoning that people use to pretend Fighters are sub-par. You don't need spells or special powers to be an interesting combatant, and you sure... don't need them to be a compelling antagonist.

Sure, that's why Lord Robilar is a more iconic villain than Acererak or Vecna, right? Because he makes a more interesting antagonist.

Look. I realize that you don't strictly need to cast spells in order to be an interesting villain. Nicodemus Archleone (Dresden Files) is basically a glorified fighter, and he's still the scariest bad guy in Harry Dresden's book, due to his smarts, his ruthlessness, and his effective use of magical, social and technological resources. 5E has much less scope for non-spell magical resources like you'd see in the Dresden files, though, so for the most part that is out; and 5E has much, much less scope for technological resources, that's out too. 5E characters also have fewer circumstantial weaknesses to take advantage of, compared to Dresdenverse characters, and the typical 5E PC already never takes off their armor and never splits themself away from the party, not even to go to the bathroom.

That means that a Nicodemus in 5E would be basically reduced to a collector of goons and Denarian monsters. He wouldn't be very interesting, because D&D isn't the Dresdenverse, and it doesn't allow the same scope for villainous action except by DM fiat. Sure, a given DM can always make up a magic ritual and say that the demon knows how to perform it--in sort of the same way that a DM can rule that a demon can give spells like True Polymorph to a warlock even if the demon itself has no ability at all to cast those spells--but that comes from the DM bypassing 5E, not working with it.

If 5E demons were better-designed, more like AD&D Tanar'ri and Baatezu, you wouldn't have to rely on fiat. Demons would be plenty of threat on their own, fully within the rules, and players could know those rules and potentially develop skill at demon-slaying as they learn their tricks and weaknesses. It expands the scope of the game beyond the encounter level and allows the players to engage with demons in strategic play.

[Quoxis]

Thanks for the apology. I was a bit overboard too.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, but i love this community. People that get ecstatic over a game, but are willing to settle an argument peacefully, even admitting their actions weren't justified.
Aren't you guys aware that this is the internet?!

[Quoxis]

Sure, a given DM can always make up a magic ritual and say that the demon knows how to perform it--in sort of the same way that a DM can rule that a demon can give spells like True Polymorph to a warlock even if the demon itself has no ability at all to cast those spells--but that comes from the DM bypassing 5E, not working with it.

[...] you wouldn't have to rely on fiat.

I only ever played 5e, so my knowledge is limited, but isn't 5e considered to be the edition that focuses most on a DMs rulings over restrictive rules? I'm far from being able to give an informed opinion on this, but i've read that on multiple message boards.
I think you could view the vanilla form of a demon as a template to build up on instead of a cookie cutter. Maybe that's how the previous editions worked and WotC just forgot to make it clearer, maybe they just f-ed up, but reading through this thread most GMs seem to have done that anyways.

[Unoriginal]

False.

Prove it, then. How would a Balor have any troubles handling a tribe of orcs, when aside from being incredibly smarter and more charismatic than your typical orc leader, the common orc can't approach the demon without losing 2/3 of their HPs and literally dies if they touch the Balor (including if the orc hits in melee)?



Sure, that's why Lord Robilar is a more iconic villain than Acererak or Vecna, right? Because he makes a more interesting antagonist.

Acerack and Vecna are legendary because of their cunning and memorable ways to troll the players without even showing up, not because of their in-game stats.




Look. I realize that you don't strictly need to cast spells in order to be an interesting villain. Nicodemus Archleone (Dresden Files) is basically a glorified fighter, and he's still the scariest bad guy in Harry Dresden's book, due to his smarts, his ruthlessness, and his effective use of magical, social and technological resources. 5E has much less scope for non-spell magical resources like you'd see in the Dresden files, though, so for the most part that is out; and 5E has much, much less scope for technological resources, that's out too. 5E characters also have fewer circumstantial weaknesses to take advantage of, compared to Dresdenverse characters, and the typical 5E PC already never takes off their armor and never splits themself away from the party, not even to go to the bathroom.

That means that a Nicodemus in 5E would be basically reduced to a collector of goons and Denarian monsters. He wouldn't be very interesting, because D&D isn't the Dresdenverse, and it doesn't allow the same scope for villainous action except by DM fiat.

So I guess you consider political intrigues, plots to subjugate cities (or spark wars), conflicts with criminals, "entering the evil lair"-type scenarios, Kingmaker-type campaigns and cunning antagonists to be worthless in D&D unless the big bad can show up and cast spells?

Seriouls, how can you consider a smart, ruthless mobster who is good at using any ressources at his disposal to be inherently and inescapably uninteresting just because he doesn't cast spells?




Sure, a given DM can always make up a magic ritual and say that the demon knows how to perform it--in sort of the same way that a DM can rule that a demon can give spells like True Polymorph to a warlock even if the demon itself has no ability at all to cast those spells--but that comes from the DM bypassing 5E, not working with it.

First, what does a magic ritual have anything to do with that discussion? Second, the rules make clear that the Warlock's spells are secrets taught by the Patron, powers they're imbued with thanks to the pact, or a combination of the two, so I don't see how it's "bypassing 5e" to say that a monster capable of being a Warlock's Patron would know secret rituals or the like.

Hell, it's outright stated that Baphomet knows how to turn people into Minotaurs via rituals, that Demogorgon can create Chimeras and twist mortals to his liking, not to mention how Orcus is generally how one learns the secret rituals to become a Lich, and none of it is put on their statblocks.



If 5E demons were better-designed, more like AD&D Tanar'ri and Baatezu, you wouldn't have to rely on fiat. Demons would be plenty of threat on their own, fully within the rules,

Demons ARE plenty of threat on their own, fully within the rules.


and players could know those rules and potentially develop skill at demon-slaying as they learn their tricks and weaknesses. It expands the scope of the game beyond the encounter level and allows the players to engage with demons in strategic play.

How so? Giving the opponent a bunch of spells don't make an encounter more strategic by default. And tricks and weaknesses of a particular Fiend have generally nothing to do with their statblock powers and everything about how the DM uses them.

Unless you count magic powers to automatically be tricks (because...?) and are talking about generic weaknesses like the good ol' "alright, those a demons, so let's use the cold iron weapons we got for those occasions" way.

[OverdrivePrime]

So, feel free to add a few more powers (as long as you consider CR) but don't go overboard or you'll just have a list of abilities that never get used.

Now, non-combat abilities on the other hand are great. I mentioned my habit of giving Glabrezu Geass earlier in the thread. That's not something for them to use in a fight, that's something they cast to enforce contracts.

Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. A demon like a Glabrezu should have robust options to be a scheming, dangerous pain in the butt out of combat. It's reason for being is corruption, and it really needs more tools available to twist peoples words and intentions out of combat.

[BeefGood]

I've tried giving various monsters lists of options, and it's never worked out as designed. Part of that may be due to lack of skill on my part, but at least is due to system assumptions:

Action Economy
Solo fights are generally a bad idea.


A forgotten option is an option that didn't really exist
It's hard enough to keep mental track of what everything on the battlefield can do. Double the move-set of a few creatures, and you're looking at easily forgetting what each can do (especially if you're hurrying). That's the equivalent of not giving them the options to begin with.


The two above, plus one more
Lack of Ranged Attacks
I was considering a separate post just on this point, not confined to demons. My 9th-level party is chewing up powerful foes before the foes even get to them. A recent demon example (I think the party was 8th level at this time) was a nalfeshnee. I was heavily banking on the Horror Visage, didn't read carefully enough, and realized as the battle was about to start that its range is a nearly-worthless 15 feet. I know the nalfeshnee can teleport 120 feet, but so what? That burns its action. Before it gets to do anything from its new location the entire party gets a whack at it.
I should have written "Lack of Ranged Attacks Relative to Player Characters". Fireball's range is something like 150 feet. Bows obviously do damage from range, and Tier 2 fighters have multiple attacks. Given multiple party members and a single target, this damage adds up pretty quick, even to 200 or so hit points.
I'm half-seriously considering a solution I'll call AutoMage: "Every solo monster is automatically accompanied by a 9th or higher level spell caster, regardless of whether it makes sense for the story." Then at least the fireballs will be going both ways.

To be fair to the game as it was meant to be played I should also add that multiple encounters per rest would help somewhat, at least by burning spell slots. Though that wouldn't do anything to the fighter types inflicting damage at range for multiple rounds before most monsters can get close. I guess you can track arrow usage.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The two above, plus one more
Lack of Ranged Attacks
I was considering a separate post just on this point, not confined to demons. My 9th-level party is chewing up powerful foes before the foes even get to them. A recent demon example (I think the party was 8th level at this time) was a nalfeshnee. I was heavily banking on the Horror Visage, didn't read carefully enough, and realized as the battle was about to start that its range is a nearly-worthless 15 feet. I know the nalfeshnee can teleport 120 feet, but so what? That burns its action. Before it gets to do anything from its new location the entire party gets a whack at it.
I should have written "Lack of Ranged Attacks Relative to Player Characters". Fireball's range is something like 150 feet. Bows obviously do damage from range, and Tier 2 fighters have multiple attacks. Given multiple party members and a single target, this damage adds up pretty quick, even to 200 or so hit points.
I'm half-seriously considering a solution I'll call AutoMage: "Every solo monster is automatically accompanied by a 9th or higher level spell caster, regardless of whether it makes sense for the story." Then at least the fireballs will be going both ways.

To be fair to the game as it was meant to be played I should also add that multiple encounters per rest would help somewhat, at least by burning spell slots. Though that wouldn't do anything to the fighter types inflicting damage at range for multiple rounds before most monsters can get close. I guess you can track arrow usage.

I'm curious--what ranges do your encounters normally start at? In a dungeon, I can't imagine people starting more than one turn's worth of movement apart. Out in the open, folds in the ground and trees prevent things from starting at absurd ranges.

Yes, solo monsters are a dud this edition. I basically don't use them (except for those with lair and legendary powers). Action economy advantage is just that strong.

[BeefGood]

I'm curious--what ranges do your encounters normally start at? In a dungeon, I can't imagine people starting more than one turn's worth of movement apart. Out in the open, folds in the ground and trees prevent things from starting at absurd ranges.


Yes, this matters too. The nalfeshnee was out in the open and started a few rounds' movement away from the party. With hindsight, I should have started it closer to the party. A more recent example, involving a non-demon monster with a high challenge rating but no ranged attack (and normal speed), took place in a dungeon sized for creatures much larger than human size. The room was very large.

[fbelanger]

It seem that pc never got surprised.
Have always terrain advantage.
Always decide when the fight begins.
Poor monsters!

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. A demon like a Glabrezu should have robust options to be a scheming, dangerous pain in the butt out of combat. It's reason for being is corruption, and it really needs more tools available to twist peoples words and intentions out of combat.

A Glabrezu has robust options to be a scheming, dangerous pain in the butt out of combat. You don't need spells to corruption people or twist their words or intentions.

Hell, a Glabrezu would probably be offended by a magically-binding contract or geas. It's how *Devils* operate. They're being of chaos.

A demon would make things so that the mortal feels they have to follow the deal despite no guarantee of it being fulfilled, because they're that desperate. Hell, a demon would find it immensely enjoyable if people assumed their bargains were automatically enforced like the ones of a devil, when it's actually just a normal promise the demon can choose to break on a whim with no issue.


It seem that pc never got surprised.
Have always terrain advantage.
Always decide when the fight begins.
Poor monsters!

Don't be ridiculous, demons are known to be honorable and unimaginative.

There is no way a nalfeshnee would teleport above the head of the PC that seems to be the most fragile, let itself fall, get on its feet while the party is surprised and then go to town on them, maybe with the lesser demons who followed the nalfeshnee to assist.

[War_lord]

Magical brainwashing isn't "scheming". I could give a giant bat an Archmage spell list and according to some people here that'd suddenly make it an interesting villain. Boss Monsters should be smart in combat, and have a defined character outside of it, a schemer should actually scheme.

[BeefGood]

There is no way a nalfeshnee would teleport above the head of the PC that seems to be the most fragile, let itself fall, get on its feet while the party is surprised and then go to town on them, maybe with the lesser demons who followed the nalfeshnee to assist.
1. A nalfeshnee or any monster accompanied by some minions is significantly stronger than that monster solo because this lessens the action economy disadvantage.
2. Teleport can be used to gain surprise? If correct, this is a big deal. I'd appreciate hearing arguments for (and against) this. I'm inclined to doubt it because "in combat creatures are generally aware of what's going on around them" (paraphrased from PHB.)
3. Set aside surprise for a moment. Nalfvteleports above weakling and falls on him. I don't know of rules for damage caused by stuff falling on a character but let's just assume both the character and the nalfeshnee take some damage. I also think that falling entails landing prone, so maybe nalfeshnee must use half its movement to stand up. Then nalfeshnee can move the remaining half of its movement in some direction. Weakling (and perhaps other nearby characters) can use reaction for opportunity attack as nalfeshnee leaves their reach. Nalfeshnee turn ends.
Then the characters get their turns. They all do whatever is their average DPR, and probably they can use their movement to spread out so that the upcoming horror visage can't encompass all of them. As they move the nalfeshnee can opportunity attack one of them. Just one.
One could play this out further, but I'm not seeing the teleport-and-fall strategy as a clear winner for the nalfeshnee. For a tier 2 party, DPR times number of characters is going to be a significant amount of damage.
4. For emphasis: the above scenario assumes solo nalfeshnee and that teleport can't be used to gain surprise.

[MaxWilson]

Prove it, then. How would a Balor have any troubles handling a tribe of orcs, when aside from being incredibly smarter and more charismatic than your typical orc leader, the common orc can't approach the demon without losing 2/3 of their HPs and literally dies if they touch the Balor (including if the orc hits in melee)?

Okay, here's a quick BOTE, completely neglecting any of Volo's special orc troops:

Assume 100 orcs* and a warchief vs. one Balor. Balor wins initiative, flies in and kills two orcs with its sword and whip. 98 orcs run towards Balor (using Aggressive if necessary to get within 30' and then using regular movement to retreat back to 40' or 50' if necessary to free up space for other orcs) and each throw a javelin at the Balor. You can fit over 300 orcs within a 50' radius of the Balor so 98 orcs shouldn't be a problem. Let's say the orc war chief's battle cry affects only about half of the orcs due to initiative and geometry. 49 attacks at +5 for d6+3 (halved for resistance) plus 49 attacks at +5 with advantage for d6+3 is 149 points of damage, plus another 5 points of damage for the war chief itself throwing its spear. The Balor's got (262 - 154) 108 HP left.

* Typical orc tribe size is 30-300 orcs IIRC my AD&D MM, so 100 is a bit on the small side but it's a convenient number to work with.

The orcs are now at 98% of full strength and the Balor is at 41% of full strength. This turn the Balor flies over to the orc chief and kills him and an orc warrior. Great. Now the orcs throw another 97 javelins, inflict 110 points of damage on average, and the Balor explodes, probably crisping some orcs who were standing too close to it (30' or closer), but not crisping all of them because they were already keeping some distance. Since a 30' radius has 36% the area of a 50' radius, and the orcs are operating at around a 50' radius--even they could make 60' work, I'm being conservative--we'll say that 36% of the remaining 97 orcs get crisped by the Balor's death throws, and the orc tribe learns not to stand so close to a balor next time you have to kill one.

(Note also BTW that an orc can hit a balor twice in melee before dropping unconscious (15 HP vs. the balor's aura of 10 damage), so even orcs who get stuck in melee range can hit it just fine, and they hit harder too.)

What I'd like if for that Balor to be more like an AD&D Balor, which when faced with 100 orcs can do things like kill them all with a Symbol of Death or drive them all into killing each other with a huge Confusion spell or even just teleport into the middle of the warchief's hut one night and kill the warchief. You realize that a 5E Balor can't even teleport through the roof of a thatched hut? So lame. Easily fixed, but still lame by default.

Edit: another example. In 5E, a Balor has a pretty good chance of being able to summon a bunch of vrocks or glabrezu or something. What happens then? Well, it can give those vrocks a mission like "kidnap the princess and bring her back here to me" and the vrocks will faithfully carry out those orders... for sixty seconds. Then poof! they vanish back into thin air. Sooooooo lame. There is no defensible reason behind the one-minute time limit on the balor's demon-summoning.

[MaxWilson]

I'm curious--what ranges do your encounters normally start at? In a dungeon, I can't imagine people starting more than one turn's worth of movement apart. Out in the open, folds in the ground and trees prevent things from starting at absurd ranges.

That's the thing. 100' isn't an absurd range outdoors. In fact, even in an urban environment, 50' is an absurdly close distance to first notice someone. 50' is the length of a crosswalk on a largish street (on a major arterial it could be as long as 100'). Can you imagine a DM trying to claim that a flaming demon who isn't trying to hide cannot be seen until he's a crosswalk-length away from you?

In real life it's not uncommon to notice people at 500' to 1000', and cars at even greater distances. A flaming demon should be more noticeable than a car.

100' isn't an absurd range--or at least, if it's absurd, it's merely verging on absurdly short, not absurdly long. I suppose you can justify it by saying the outdoor terrain is pretty dense and hilly: you crest the rise and there's a demon there in the hollow, only 100' away.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's the thing. 100' isn't an absurd range outdoors. In fact, even in an urban environment, 50' is an absurdly close distance to first notice someone. 50' is the length of a crosswalk on a largish street (on a major arterial it could be as long as 100'). Can you imagine a DM trying to claim that a flaming demon who isn't trying to hide cannot be seen until he's a crosswalk-length away from you?

In real life it's not uncommon to notice people at 500' to 1000', and cars at even greater distances. A flaming demon should be more noticeable than a car.

100' isn't an absurd range--or at least, if it's absurd, it's merely verging on absurdly short, not absurdly long. I suppose you can justify it by saying the outdoor terrain is pretty dense and hilly: you crest the rise and there's a demon there in the hollow, only 100' away.

But what kind of setting are you in that has demons in the middle of urban environments (not as an invasion force, but just chilling) or out in the middle of fields? Same for any other of the large-scale monsters (CR 12+). Fiends are either summoned (and thus have summoners as allies) or are invaders (in which case they come with an army). Or, I guess, you're in the abyss/Hells already, in which case the whole world is your enemy.

Also, no high-powered fiend is reasonably going to be alone. The only way you can have a solo balor fight is if the party has already diverted and eliminated all the rest of the balor's army. And then it should be an easier fight for the party--they've done the hard work. None of these issues matter if the fights are not solo fights. The only things in the MM or Volo's designed to be fought solo are those with legendary actions. Lair actions are even better. Everything else should be fought with allies. The set of MM creatures that are suitable for solo encounters is (* denotes lair actions):


Solars (angels)
Aboleth
Beholders (*)
Death Tyrants (*)
Demilich (*)
Dracolich (*)
Adult and Ancient Dragons (*)
Empyrean
Kraken
Lich (*)
Mummy Lord (*)
Sphynx (both kinds) (*)
Tarrasque
Unicorn (*)
Vampire (*)


Note that the majority of these also have lair actions. That's intentional. Every other creature (and even most of these) should be used with allies that compensate for its weaknesses. Heck, adding a squad of skeletons with bows to a balor (demons and undead go together like ice cream and pie) makes it a much better fight without significantly raising the CR of the encounter (since the skeletons barely count).

[fbelanger]

When the Balor show up, the orc chief will simply be stab in the back, and its head will be offer to the Balor. The Balor don't need to subdue the whole tribe, only show that he is a meaner chief than the previous one!

[Unoriginal]

1. A nalfeshnee or any monster accompanied by some minions is significantly stronger than that monster solo because this lessens the action economy disadvantage.

Yes? A major demon would be smart enough to know that and so bring backup.



2. Teleport can be used to gain surprise? If correct, this is a big deal. I'd appreciate hearing arguments for (and against) this. I'm inclined to doubt it because "in combat creatures are generally aware of what's going on around them" (paraphrased from PHB.)


You'd need to be pretty jaded or very prepared if a creature suddenly teleporting in the middle of the group and start a fight doesn't surprise you.

'course this would require an ambush or the like to catch the group off-guard, if they know a fight will start they can expect that knid of thing




3. Set aside surprise for a moment. Nalfvteleports above weakling and falls on him. I don't know of rules for damage caused by stuff falling on a character but let's just assume both the character and the nalfeshnee take some damage.

The rules for improvised damages in the DMG says that a falling bookcase is 1d10 damages, I think a big boar-eagel-ape would be far heavier.


I also think that falling entails landing prone, so maybe nalfeshnee must use half its movement to stand up. Then nalfeshnee can move the remaining half of its movement in some direction. Weakling (and perhaps other nearby characters) can use reaction for opportunity attack as nalfeshnee leaves their reach. Nalfeshnee turn ends..

Per the rules, the demon would only be prone if damaged by the fall, and wouldn't take damage if the fall is less than 10 feet.


Okay, here's a quick BOTE, completely neglecting any of Volo's special orc troops:

Assume 100 orcs* and a warchief vs. one Balor. Balor wins initiative, flies in and kills two orcs with its sword and whip. 98 orcs run towards Balor (using Aggressive if necessary to get within 30' and then using regular movement to retreat back to 40' or 50' if necessary to free up space for other orcs) and each throw a javelin at the Balor. You can fit over 300 orcs within a 50' radius of the Balor so 98 orcs shouldn't be a problem. Let's say the orc war chief's battle cry affects only about half of the orcs due to initiative and geometry. 49 attacks at +5 for d6+3 (halved for resistance) plus 49 attacks at +5 with advantage for d6+3 is 149 points of damage, plus another 5 points of damage for the war chief itself throwing its spear. The Balor's got (262 - 154) 108 HP left.

* Typical orc tribe size is 30-300 orcs IIRC my AD&D MM, so 100 is a bit on the small side but it's a convenient number to work with.

The orcs are now at 98% of full strength and the Balor is at 41% of full strength. This turn the Balor flies over to the orc chief and kills him and an orc warrior. Great.

What.

This make no sense. First, why would the Balor attack a random mook when it can use its whip to attack the War Chief for 25 damages + have 75% chances to drag the orc to it and attack with the sword for 34 additional damages, before leaving the orc drop 25ft for 6 damages and leaving the orc prone, for a total of 75 damages? It's a much better use of its time

Second, if the Balor is flying, how come the orcs could engage it in melee?

Also, you're ignoring a world of possibilities, like the Balor teleportin right in front of a corner of the orc force, then just walking/flying through nine 5ft spaces occupied by orcs in diagonal and ending on the other side of the corner (the Balor can do that, it is huge). As shown on the DMG p. 249, this would allow the Balor to get into contact with 3 rows of orcs, aka 27 orcs, and Fire Aura causes 10 damages if touched, so that makes around 27 orcs who loses 2/3 of their HPs. But you're telling me: what about the AoO the orcs get? Well, if they hit the Balor, they die.

And even if orcs are aggressive and in their fighting capacities, even them are going to soil themselves when they see a demon gravely injure or kill nearly 1/3 of their troops in one round.




Now the orcs throw another 97 javelins,

Hold on, hold on. Where are those orcs finding those additional javelins? They have only one per orc, if you use the MM's statblock, and the one thrown at the Balor wouldn't be recoverable (due to Fire Aura making them go aflame).

So the orcs get 1 ranged attack, and then the Balor can have its fun with a giant whip and flying.


(Note also BTW that an orc can hit a balor twice in melee before dropping unconscious (15 HP vs. the balor's aura of 10 damage), so even orcs who get stuck in melee range can hit it just fine, and they hit harder too.)

You forgot the aura also causes damages at the start of the Balor's turn, so if the orcs end their turns next to the Balor after attacking, they die


But I'll admit it, me saying that the Balor alone would annihilate the orc tribe without breaking a sweat was a wrong assumption. It can do it, but it'd get hurt.


even just teleport into the middle of the warchief's hut one night and kill the warchief. You realize that a 5E Balor can't even teleport through the roof of a thatched hut? So lame. Easily fixed, but still lame by default.

Yeah, because it's so much lamer to teleport next to the tent, make it burst in flame by your mere presence, and kill the guy while he's waking up.




Edit: another example. In 5E, a Balor has a pretty good chance of being able to summon a bunch of vrocks or glabrezu or something. What happens then? Well, it can give those vrocks a mission like "kidnap the princess and bring her back here to me" and the vrocks will faithfully carry out those orders... for sixty seconds. Then poof! they vanish back into thin air. Sooooooo lame. There is no defensible reason behind the one-minute time limit on the balor's demon-summoning.

What.

It's a combat power to summon goons for 1 min without Concentration.


When the Balor show up, the orc chief will simply be stab in the back, and its head will be offer to the Balor. The Balor don't need to subdue the whole tribe, only show that he is a meaner chief than the previous one!

True, especially with 22 in CHA and 20 in INT, but to be fair I implied the Balor could destroy the tribe.

Just taking it over would be easy.

[Ravinsild]

I kind of want to do a 1 shot fight where Unoriginal is the DM and gets to be a Balor and see what happens haha.

[Unoriginal]

I kind of want to do a 1 shot fight where Unoriginal is the DM and gets to be a Balor and see what happens haha.

What would be the parameters?

[Ravinsild]

What would be the parameters?

I have no idea. I've only played low level games of 1st edition and 1 game of 5th and that was also low level. I don't know what a Balor is like.

[Unoriginal]

I have no idea. I've only played low level games of 1st edition and 1 game of 5th and that was also low level. I don't know what a Balor is like.

I meant, the parameters for the one shot.

Would it need to be a typical adventure day of ~6 encounters + a few other challenges ?

Would the enemies have to be only RAW monsters? Would magic items or variant equipment authorized?

I wouldn't be opposed to try running an one shot like that (though I'm not sure how well I'd do and if it'd demonstrate anything about any of this thread's arguments), if people are interested.

[Ravinsild]

I meant, the parameters for the one shot.

Would it need to be a typical adventure day of ~6 encounters + a few other challenges ?

Would the enemies have to be only RAW monsters? Would magic items or variant equipment authorized?

I wouldn't be opposed to try running an one shot like that (though I'm not sure how well I'd do and if it'd demonstrate anything about any of this thread's arguments), if people are interested.

Oh I was thinking of just fighting an epic boss battle against a badass Balor using its full capabilities and creative strategy, basically making the most out of the monster as RAW to see what its like to face a true threat.

[Unoriginal]

That's fair, but the thing is that a big solo boss battle while the PCs are at full ressource would not be very representative

[JackPhoenix]

It's been a while, but still... let's talk about this one:


So I have beefed my 5e succubi to be a bit more in line with pathfinder succubi and incorporates some of the new features of 5e.

Here's your problem. Pathfinder isn't D&D, even if it's basically copied and modified 3.5 SRD.


So a pathfinder succubus is immune to electricity, fire and poison and has acid and cold resist. I feel like that is too many immunities for 5e, but I did give her immunity to fire because honestly all fiends should be immune to fire.

And D&D succubus (3.5) was immune to electricity and poison and mildly (resist 10) resistant to fire, cold and acid. This is relevant to the fire immunity: fiends never had blanket fire immunity in D&D. In fact, it was one of the differences between devils (or Baatezu, or whatever you want to call them) and demons (Tanar'ri): all devils (note that Imps weren't proper Baatezu back then; the immunities and resistances were build into the subtype) were immune to fire, while almost no demons were. Instead, demons were immune to electricity and resistant to other common elements, while devils lacked electric resistance completely. Only demon with fire immunity was Balor. I think the reasoning is that Abyss never was particulary fiery, compared to Nine Hells, instead it was more... let's say primal and weird. On similar note, succubi were quite indecisive over the last 3 editions: 3.5 had them as CE demons, 4e turned them into devils (because temptation was more devil's stuff in that edition and demons were more mindlessly destructive and corruptive through their very presense instead of their actions) and 5e has them as NE independent fiends. Also, note that adding fire immunity may increase CR (I'm not doing the calculation)


I left Etherealness and their new Charm alone, but I gave them at-will detect thoughts, and modified it to work in the same way the doppleganger's mind reading ability works that grants them advantage on deception, persuasion, and insight checks against someone whose mind they are reading.

I didn't modify their ability scores, but gave them expertise in the social skills (deception, persuasion, insight).

Giving them the ability to read mind is nice, but not really important. They can charm a victim and communicate with it telepathically, including ordering the victim to give them all the information they need: the victim can't disobey. Social skills aren't important for monsters. Why? Because PC's are immune to them (except Deception which is only relevant for interaction wih Insight). Nobody cares about NPC vs. NPC interaction to make checks. As a GM, if you need a succubus to convince the king to imprison the PCs, don't make Persuasion check, just let the interaction work however you need. It's not really cheating, making the roll isn't important, the king is either persuaded (or not) as required by the plot anyway.


They can cast suggestion, teleport, and vampiric touch at will. They retain their shapechange and telepathy, though it is increased to 100 feet. They know Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Common, and Draconic as languages but they are also constantly under the effect of the Tongues spell so they can speak any language unless something is blocking their magic somehow.

They can also cast Teleport at will, always arriving exactly where they wish to be with no chance of failure, just as they had Greater Teleport at will in pathfinder.

Languages: Why? It knows all the languages it needs, and everything else can be conversed with telepathically. But it's not really important, nobody is going to talk to a succubus in draconic or whathever obscure language anyway.

For spells: Suggestion is redundant with its Charm. Yes, it has somewhat different niche, but Charm is better.
Teleport is higher level effect in 5e, and no risk chance would make it even more powerful. Not really fitting for CR4 opponent. Also, 5e has lot less ways to stop teleporting, making actually catching succubus at the level where she's relevant (around level 4) impossible.
Vampiric Touch a) doesn't fit with abilities succubi had before, and 2) improves their average damage, meaning it likely bumps up her CR.


They are notoriously difficult to kill because they never stand and fight, always choosing to run away and doing so quite easily with etherealness and teleport. It takes special setup and preparation to kill one, but if you do actually corner one it isn't a very difficult fight at all.

Not that surprising, given the abilities needed to stop her from escaping are unavailable until level 13, and succubus is CR4 monster. There's no "special setup" you can do before that, and only possible preparation you can help is "find a way to kill her before she can act".


Err, I didn't boost their combat ability though. The only combat-related thing I even gave them was at-will vampiric touch but that is a succubus staple and it fits with the whole sustaining themselves through damaging others theme. Not sure where you're getting the large boost in combat idea from?

Perhaps because you've added immunity and give her the ability to increase her damage and heal herself?


Forgot to mention their Energy Drain and Profane Gift abilities though. Profane Gift works exactly like it did in pathfinder, letting her touch a creature to grant them a +2 bonus to any ability score that can only be removed by dispelled by remove curse or if she wants to remove it. While it is on a creature, they can communicate with it telepathically over any distance and can cast suggestion on it at any distance as well.

Energy Drain in 5e has to be used on a willing creature or a charmed creature and it deals a set amount of psychic damage. In pathfinder, it gave a negative level and simultaneously cast suggestion on the creature to compel it to kiss her again. Since negative levels aren't a thing in 5e, I decided on a compromise here that I think works a little better than trying to make negative levels in 5e or just doing raw psychic damage. Instead, when she kisses something, it gives them one level of exhaustion and then has the suggestion to kiss her again.

Decreasing max hp is how "negative levels" work in 5e. Exhaustion is pretty dangerous, much more than negative levels were... again, we're talking about CR4 monster here.


One on one, they are super dangerous to deal with because she can wrap you around her little finger and just make out with you until you die, but against even two people, she can't keep both of you controlled at the same time, so she scurries off.

They're major threats, but they don't fight. And if they do, they are pretty terrible at it.

But that's not really true. With Suggestion at will, it can control unlimited number of people, then drain them one by one as she desires. And there's not much they can do about it. Solo succubus is hard encounter (meaning they should be able to deal with about 4 of them over the normal adventuring day if they fight nothing else) for 4 level 3 characters, and with your modifications, just one would absolutely destroy them despite "being terrible at fighting" if played by any halfway competent GM.

[MaxWilson]

Note that the majority of these also have lair actions. That's intentional. Every other creature (and even most of these) should be used with allies that compensate for its weaknesses. Heck, adding a squad of skeletons with bows to a balor (demons and undead go together like ice cream and pie) makes it a much better fight without significantly raising the CR of the encounter (since the skeletons barely count).

From an official, DMG-difficulty point of view, the skeletons may not add much to the base XP, but they increase the combat multiplier significantly. Kobold.com says that for a 19th level party of four, a Balor is a Medium fight, but a Balor and twelve skeleton archers is Deadly. The DMG says you're supposed to calculate the multiplier without counting creatures that don't add significantly to the difficulty, but you can hardly argue that's the case here if you're adding the skeletons specifically to increase the difficulty.

(I'm not saying you shouldn't give the Balor those skeleton archers BTW, just that you should account for them honestly, which is this case includes acknowledging that the Balor is a bit of a weakling with or without them, and that the ensuing fight won't be as deadly as that rating makes it sound.)

[MaxWilson]

Second, if the Balor is flying, how come the orcs could engage it in melee?

Heads up, big guy: orcs throwing javelins aren't engaging in melee. Otherwise they'd be using greataxes for d12+3 instead of d6+3.


Also, you're ignoring a world of possibilities, like the Balor teleportin right in front of a corner of the orc force, then just walking/flying through nine 5ft spaces occupied by orcs in diagonal and ending on the other side of the corner (the Balor can do that, it is huge). As shown on the DMG p. 249, this would allow the Balor to get into contact with 3 rows of orcs, aka 27 orcs, and Fire Aura causes 10 damages if touched, so that makes around 27 orcs who loses 2/3 of their HPs. But you're telling me: what about the AoO the orcs get? Well, if they hit the Balor, they die.

Illegal. The Balor's Fire Aura is "At the start of each of the balor's turns, each creature within 5 feet of it takes 10 (3d6) fire damage, and flammable Objects in the aura that aren't being worn or carried ignite. A creature that touches the balor or hits it with a melee Attack while within 5 feet of it takes 10 (3d6) fire damage." None of these apply to an orc through whose space a balor walks, so all you're accomplishing is making the Balor waste a turn and take a bunch of opportunity attacks, each of which will either miss (doing nothing) or deal half as much damage to the Balor as to the orcs. Since the orcs have 1500 HP in the aggregate and the Balor has only 262, that's a losing game for the Balor, especially considering the action cost. An orc won't even die if it hits the Balor--it just drops to ~5 HP or (if it's really unlucky) 10% of the time it goes unconscious.

If you've got a feasible strategy for defeating the orc tribe as a Balor, feel free to share it. I doubt you can come up with one that doesn't involve a lot of kiting, running, and hiding, which is not what I'd want my Balors to do. Hence, I suggest simply improving the Balor by giving it back some of its old AD&D-era abilities like Symbol and Animate Dead.



Hold on, hold on. Where are those orcs finding those additional javelins? They have only one per orc, if you use the MM's statblock, and the one thrown at the Balor wouldn't be recoverable (due to Fire Aura making them go aflame).

Per "Ammunition" on page 11 of the MM, you can assume that each orc has 2d4 javelins.


A monster carries enough ammunition to make its
ranged attacks. You can assume that a monster has 2d4
pieces of ammunition for a thrown weapon attack, and
2d10 pieces of ammunition for a projectile weapon such
as a bow or crossbow.

Javelins are a thrown weapon attack.

[Unoriginal]

From an official, DMG-difficulty point of view, the skeletons may not add much to the base XP, but they increase the combat multiplier significantly. Kobold.com says that for a 19th level party of four, a Balor is a Medium fight, but a Balor and twelve skeleton archers is Deadly. The DMG says you're supposed to calculate the multiplier without counting creatures that don't add significantly to the difficulty, but you can hardly argue that's the case here if you're adding the skeletons specifically to increase the difficulty.

(I'm not saying you shouldn't give the Balor those skeleton archers BTW, just that you should account for them honestly, which is this case includes acknowledging that the Balor is a bit of a weakling with or without them, and that the ensuing fight won't be as deadly as that rating makes it sound.)

Being a Medium solo encounter for lvl 19 PCs isn't being "a bit of a weakling"


Heads up, wise guy: orcs throwing javelins aren't engaging in melee. Otherwise they'd be using greataxes for d12+3 instead of d6+3.

My bad. I misread something. What I meant is "how are they getting into range by running toward a flying opponent", because the Balor has no reason to stay in range can has access to vertical movement.




Illegal. The Balor's Fire Aura is "At the start of each of the balor's turns, each creature within 5 feet of it takes 10 (3d6) fire damage, and flammable Objects in the aura that aren't being worn or carried ignite. A creature that touches the balor or hits it with a melee Attack while within 5 feet of it takes 10 (3d6) fire damage." None of these apply to an orc through whose space a balor walks, so all you're accomplishing is making the Balor waste a turn and take a bunch of opportunity attacks, each of which will either miss (doing nothing) or deal half as much damage to the Balor as to the orcs. Since the orcs have 1500 HP in the aggregate and the Balor has only 262, that's a losing game for the Balor, especially considering the action cost.

So you don't consider that an enemy walking through the space you control touches you?



If you've got a feasible strategy for defeating the orc tribe as a Balor, feel free to share it. I doubt you can come up with one that doesn't involve a lot of kiting, running, and hiding.

Well, you're half right. The Balor just needs to be flying, then get into the 25ft range of its whip, then go up, and keep at it 'til all the orcs are dead. So it'd involve kiting from the Balor, running from the orcs, and no hiding (unless the orcs manage to flee far enough.

Though once the orcs have depleted their ranged weapons, the Balor wouldn't even have to get up, just to keep flying 25ft above them.

[MinotaurWarrior]

The Balor cannot effectively kite an orc tribe. It can only keep 70ft of separation (moving 40ft closer, attacking from 30ft, then moving 40ft back). That's less than the long distance range of the javelins. the missed javelins are recoverable.

C.f. an Androsphinx, which is virtually guaranteed to kill the majority of orcs with its third roar. It can also kite the vast majority of the tribe by casting sacred flame from 60ft away, flying 60ft up, then using its legendary actions for teleportation.

[Beelzebubba]

Being a Medium solo encounter for lvl 19 PCs isn't being "a bit of a weakling"

That's because it's CR is wrong, it can be killed by far lower level PCs with ease


So you don't consider that an enemy walking through the space you control touches you?

Not without an explicit action. Unless you feel like making up some more disingenuous stuff.

[Unoriginal]

Disagreeing with me is something everyone is free to do, and you can think I and what I am saying are stupid or nonsensical, but please don't claim I or my points are disingenuous.

In any case, I see I've acted in a pretty jerkish manner, and I sincerely apologize for it. I should not have reacted like this.