Monk kung fu.

[Doomboy911]

So I love some sweet kung fu but have never properly explored the monk. I'm sure there's great stuff but I'm struggling to find the stuff that adheres to the real kung fu. Everything seems more high octane kung fu flick and less real kung fu.

So does anyone have any suggestions for prestige classes or other monk options that are centered around legit styles. I'm interested mostly in tai chi and Iron body but I can work with other stuff.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My half-dragon wizard asks what this "real" stuff you speak of is.

[ATHATH]

Let me introduce you to this magical thing called "refluffing"... And by "me", I mean the other posters, because I'm terrible at explaining things (plus, I normally focus on building casters, not martials).

As for what I can actually teach you... Well, I think I a tripping-focused build might work nicely for you; lockdown trippers are actually quite decent if you build them right. As for how to build one right... Er, well, you'd have to ask someone else for that.

[Insert obligatory Tome of Battle recommendation here]

Finally, please note that you don't have to be a Monk (the character class) to be a monk (the character concept). There was a good OotS comic strip for that (well, not that specifically, but it was close), but I'm too lazy to find it. If you want to hit people with your fists, a Psychic Warrior with the Tashalatora feat or an Unarmed Swordsage would be much better/more effective than just being a single-classed Monk.

[Telonius]

So I love some sweet kung fu but have never properly explored the monk. I'm sure there's great stuff

*heavy sigh* Yeah, you'd really think there was. [/bitter old guy]

Anyway, yes, the Monk's kung fu is sadly weak. The Monk class is - generally and across over a decade - seen as one of the worst in the game. The short explanation is that it's bad at its own main shtick, has a bunch of abilities that are either terrible or work at cross-purposes, and generally results in player hardship when it's taken for more than a level or two. As a two-level dip, it's really not bad; but other classes (notably Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, or even an unarmed-focused Fighter with well-chosen feats) can out-Kung-Fu the Monk.

As far as styles go, Unearthed Arcana tried to do this with the Fighting Styles variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les). Tome of Battle (as Athath mentioned) has much more of a school-focused thing going. Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, and even Stone Dragon have maneuvers that have a kung fu or wu xia feel to them. Setting Sun in particular is focused around using your opponent's force against him, tripping enemies, throwing enemies, and battlefield control in general. Stone Dragon has maneuvers that will give you the "kick through a crate of bricks" thing.

[nintendoh]

Monk grapple build works rather well too. Main thing to do is remember the size increase trick. This works with tripping and grapple.

[Mehangel]

Let me introduce you to this magical thing called "refluffing"... And by "me", I mean the other posters, because I'm terrible at explaining things (plus, I normally focus on building casters, not martials).

...

Finally, please note that you don't have to be a Monk (the character class) to be a monk (the character concept). There was a good OotS comic strip for that (well, not that specifically, but it was close), but I'm too lazy to find it. If you want to hit people with your fists, a Psychic Warrior with the Tashalatora feat or an Unarmed Swordsage would be much better/more effective than just being a single-classed Monk.

I cannot agree with this more. I personally get annoyed whenever I hear people who say that they want to play character concept X, Y, or Z, but fail to consider playing a class other than one with the same name. As if Knights, Samurai, Scouts, Shamans, Warlocks, Ninjas, etc did not exist in-world until the relevant sourcebook was released.

By the way Athath, the comic page you were referring to is #209 Multiclass Discrimination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html).

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd also like to note that this

Everything seems more high octane kung fu flick and less real kung fu.
is sort of a problem-- 3.5 very quickly stops being "real," and starts being high-octane... everything. Like, measurable things like Jump checks start hitting superhuman levels, without any real optimization, by around 6th. You start fighting giants, demons, legendary monsters. "Down-to-earth-kung-fu" stops being a relevant concept.

In any case... the most down-to-earth martial arts type you'll probably find would be to go straight Fighter. Take Improved Unarmed Strike, TWF, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Snap Kick (the latter two from ToB), along with no more than one level of actual Monk for unarmored AC. This will, functionally, make you a capable unarmed combatant. You'll be able to punch people to death nicely; throw on additional combat feats to taste.

[digiman619]

Let me introduce you to this magical thing called "refluffing"... And by "me", I mean the other posters, because I'm terrible at explaining things (plus, I normally focus on building casters, not martials).

Okay, I'll step up to the plate with refluffing. When you think of Monks, what comes to mind? Chances are it's of a mobile fighter (notice the lowercase) that fights with their bare hands and little-to-no armor. That's the core concept you're aiming for. You know who else is highly mobile, can fight without weapons and wears little-to-no armor? Barbarians and Psychic Warriors. Both classes are easy to change the reasoning behind their abilites (the 'fluff' as it's often called) without changing any of its mechanical rules(often known as 'crunch')

Let's start with the Barbarian. A barbarian has the mobility and ability to fight unarmed, but it has rage as a primary class feature. We can keep it mechanically the same (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves -2 AC), but have instead of it being a mindless rage, it is instead a hightened state of awareness that can only be tapped into in small amounts. You can also use alternate class features/substitution levels/archetypes can better model the new concept; instead of rage, you could replace it with Ferocity from Complete Scoundrel (+4 Str, +4 Dex, -2 on ranged attacks beyond 30 feet), which is still a legit Barbarian ability that makes it closer to the monk you want.

Psychic Warriors, in the other hand, show the other way to refluff: limiting ones self for a concept. There are plenty of powers on the psychic warrior list that sound like something a mystical monk can do (catfall, body elquilibrium, dimension slide, etc.) and plenty that do not (my light, feat leech, ectoplasmic form, etc.). By picking powers known of the first catagory, you can mold the class to better suit your needs. Quick piece of advise: If you want to make an unarmed Psychic Warrior 'monk', pick up Claws of the BEast, as your unarmed attacks don't count as natural weapons for the various powers that enhance them (claws of the vampire vs vampiric blade), and many GMs balk at unarmed strikes getting bonuses clearly intended for manufactured weapons.

My personal favorite to do the whole "make X class a monk" schtick is the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife), becasue it has an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist/) ready-made for such a character.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you want "monk fluff" you have to build around unarmed strike somehow. The rest is easy to refluff.

e.g.
My Clawlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880)build is designed around high unarmed dmg (including claw dmg due to Eldritch Claw + Beast Strike combo), perception and deception, mobility and some predator feeling. But you could easily exchange the predator fluff into a monk tiger/panther claw style fluff.

Another approach as others have pointed out would be instead of any monk lvl at all either a swordsage (gets a lot of maneuvers that can be easily fluffed as special kung-fu techniques) or a psychic warrior with the Tashalatora feat (for a more psychic style high fantasy monk).

And last, I could also offer my ShurikeNado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526875)build if you are interested into odd builds.
He starts as unarmed combatant and becomes a ranged (!) ubercharger who can flurry anything (due to improvised weapon from Drunken Master really anything). The build relies on Shuriken fluff, but that's not mandatory for the build.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, Unarmed Swordsage [Tome of Battle] focused on Setting Sun, Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind seems like just the thing. Lots of different offensive and defensive techniques ranging from a swift hard hit to the weak spot (e.g. Insightful Strike) to a move abandoning defense for heavy offense (Rabid Wolf Strike) to offensive flurries (Flashing Sun, Dancing Mongoose) and company. You even get Throws, using enemy strength for leverage, etc. if we go with "lost arts" not anymore in modern kungfu (closer to judo and jiujutsu, granted). And the ability to hit really hard and do basic acrobatics and so on. Just stay mostly out of the supernatural schools (Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, though both have some useful non-supernatural options too) if you want to stay within mortal bounds. By far the easiest way to go about this.

[Inevitability]

My half-dragon wizard asks what this "real" stuff you speak of is.

A half-dragon wizard? Did spell levels kill your parents or something? :smalltongue:

[Stormstrider]

So I love some sweet kung fu but have never properly explored the monk. I'm sure there's great stuff but I'm struggling to find the stuff that adheres to the real kung fu. Everything seems more high octane kung fu flick and less real kung fu.

So does anyone have any suggestions for prestige classes or other monk options that are centered around legit styles. I'm interested mostly in tai chi and Iron body but I can work with other stuff.

The monk definitely uses fantasized versions of mythical concepts based on outdated explanations for natural phenomena.

If one wants to use an unarmed martial artist that can be easily used to emulate a real-world martial artist, I would recommend the Brawler class from PF or an unarmed centered Fighter in DND 3.5.

The main problem is that without some sort of extraordinary or supernatural buff unarmed combat would realistically be inferior to armed combat in almost every conceivable scenario.

[Gruftzwerg]

The main problem is that without some sort of extraordinary or supernatural buff unarmed combat would realistically be inferior to armed combat in almost every conceivable scenario.

Why if I may ask?
Imho unarmed builds can easily compete with armed. The build/magic items just differs. Both concepts have their pros&cons and can easily oneshot anything with an ubercharger build.

[emeraldstreak]

Keep in mind the classic kung fu guy isn't a challenge to gigantic monsters. So if you want to roleplay the classic, stick to lower levels.

Now, if you want to roleplay a superhero who kungfus giant monsters - ie One Punch Man - sure, the system supports it too, but it is a different trope.

[Karl Aegis]

Wait. There's a character that both uses Kung Fu and fights giant monsters in Wanpanman? Who??

But, no. Monks are not good at Kung Fu. Their distinguishing features are good saves, improved evasion and fast movement. Things to keep them away from enemies. Kung Fu generally doesn't work from hundreds of feet away. These features are at odds with one another. You're going to have to give something up.

[Sagetim]

So I love some sweet kung fu but have never properly explored the monk. I'm sure there's great stuff but I'm struggling to find the stuff that adheres to the real kung fu. Everything seems more high octane kung fu flick and less real kung fu.

So does anyone have any suggestions for prestige classes or other monk options that are centered around legit styles. I'm interested mostly in tai chi and Iron body but I can work with other stuff.

I mean, the main problem you would see in going that route is that the Monk base class is not really very good. I would say not really very good at representing real martial arts, but the problems it suffers from are extensive. And the most painful one is going to be trying to gear your character.

The game is more set up for characters who use weapons and wear armor. Magic weapons are much cheaper to obtain, and you can get a variety of bonuses on them for much lower cost than trying to put Flaming on an Amulet of Mighty Fists, for example. Armor is a cheap and easy route to having a high ac as well, because you can have 12 dex and still rock around with 19 ac for the low, low price of full plate. While a monk has to either have much higher stats, or be much more invested in a variety of magical gear to get to the same ac.

As others have mentioned, Sword Sage is going to get you where you want to go conceptually. If you're willing to use light armor as a concession to the game mechanics and not wanting to die, then going regular Sword Sage, possibly with a little monk dip, and then moving into Shadow Sun Ninja will net you progression in some of the core mechanics that you might want for kung-fuing people. Admittedly, the class abilities of the Shadow Sun Ninja don't fit with 'realistic kung fu action', but the advancing of unarmed combat, progressing of maneuvers known and stances, and the options that you can pick up from Setting Sun can get you a lot of options for redirecting people's energy. Since a Swordsage can wear light armor and apply their wisdom and dexterity to ac, they can get a higher ac thank a monk with greater ease and at lower cost. The main problem is going to be striking as magic, to break past dr and what have you. This is where Mountain Hammer comes into play as your best friend starting at level 3. Mountain Hammer anyone you are having a hard time with, and depending on your feat selection or magic item access, pick up Foehammer too. It may not fit the whole Wing Chun Ip Man style of punching someone repeatedly and quickly into submission, but those maneuvers add some much needed dice of damage to your relatively weak unarmed attacks and let you bypass such pesky things as damage reduction.

If you're not opposed to rifling through books that are technically third party material, then there is at least one Rokugan Campaign Setting splatbook that goes over martial arts styles as chains of feats that you can take. Some of them are better suited to being used by monks, but others can be picked up by anyone (or even favor Fighters and Samurai because of how many feats are in the chain). Bear in mind that the Oriental Adventures/Rokugan Samurai class is almost nothing like the base class from Complete Warrior. It gets a similar number of bonus feats to a Fighter (fewer total) and has the ability to self enhance their ancestral daisho (usually a pair of a Masterwork Katana and Masterwork Wakazashi that you get for free at level 1 for being a Samurai. I mean, technically the Katana and Wakazashi don't even come in not-masterwork format). Anyway, side tracking about samurai aside, the Rokugan Campaign setting book has a number of options that range around in a kind of 'more realistic to semi-mystical' area, with a splatbook full of fighting styles that cleave closer to reality in addition to Void feats that represent a person's ability to tap into the mystical concept of the space between the elements. In any case, if you want kung fu fighting styles, that's where I would suggest you look.

In particular, the books I'd suggest looking into would include: Tome of Battle (first party, but probably more fantastic in flavor than you want), Rokugan Campaign Setting (third party, but by the same people who did the Oriental Adventures book, as far as I know. And that was First Party), Oriental Adventures (first party, has some martial arts fighting style feats in it, that I forgot to mention until now), Way of the Open Hand (a Rokugan specific third party splat book, with martial arts based on the campaign setting's clans and what not).

[Hackulator]

Just refluff whatever you want and call it Kung Fu....mechanics can be described however you like.

[Rebel7284]

Some thoughts:
- If you go with a Barbarian base, DR349 p92 has City Brawler variant barbarian which gains
Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike
Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting (with Unarmed Strike only)

- For certain "Monk" builds, Fist of the Forest is an excellent class.

- I will echo everyone who says that Tome of Battle classes are pretty great for a character like this.

- Many martial artists thought the ages have used weapons. There is nothing wrong with dual-wielding your Greatsword with Unarmed Strike and following up your Greatsword attack with an off-hand roundhouse to the face. Much more realistic than trying to punch armed soldiers/monsters to death. (this doesn't work with that barbarian ACF, but any other build can do it.)

[ATHATH]

- Many martial artists thought the ages have used weapons. There is nothing wrong with dual-wielding your Greatsword with Unarmed Strike and following up your Greatsword attack with an off-hand roundhouse to the face. Much more realistic than trying to punch armed soldiers/monsters to death. (this doesn't work with that barbarian ACF, but any other build can do it.)
*cough* Snap Kick feat *cough*

[Doomboy911]

Tried asking the dm if I could borrow pathfinder variants and they seem to be on the fence.

[Florian]

Tried asking the dm if I could borrow pathfinder variants and they seem to be on the fence.

Then go straight for the Unchained Monk: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Monk%20(Unchained)