If Kenkus can mimic any sound...why can't they just talk?

[The Aboleth]

I was reading through Volo's Guide recently and became interested in playing a Kenku. The fluff (emphasis mine) says that the Kenku are "unable to speak in their own voices, but can perfectly mimic any sound they hear from a halfling's voice to the noise of rocks clattering down a hillside. However, Kenku cannot create new sounds and can communicate only by using sounds they have heard."

The above fluff is confusingly worded, and I was hoping what your thoughts were on it. The spirit of the fluff seems to be that Kenku's aren't supposed to talk in a normal conversational way; however, the fluff also says they can perfectly mimic any sounds they have previously heard INCLUDING a voice. Based on this, what's stopping a Kenku from conversing normally using, say, a halfling's voice and words that they've overheard in any everyday conversation?

The only thing I can think of is the "lack of creativity" part; Kenkus "have no ability to invent new ideas or create new things" so presumably this could be used to say that Kenkus are barred from conversing normally because even the simplest of conversations requires the "creation" of the thoughts and words needed to start or engage in the conversation. But...that seems kind of cheap, doesn't it? Especially when the next line in the guide is literally "Kenku can copy existing items with exceptional skill..." Even creating a copy of something requires a certain level of creativity, doesn't it? Besides, the earlier fluff already stated they can recreate ANY sound perfectly, to include words and voices...so that seems to again return me to my original question of "Why can't Kenku converse normally using someone else's voice and words they've heard in normal conversations?"

What are your thoughts? Have you played a Kenku before, and if so how did you approach this part of the fluff? Should their mimicry be limited to only general sounds and maybe simple words, or can/should this be expanded to any and all types of speech?

[prototype00]

Errrm, nothing? Kenku can talk just fine, it just sounds like one of those creepy videos where they splice together the words from various different people (or from a dead celeb). I.e. Not natural.

[Rynjin]

That's how I've always imagined it. Like the annoying live action Transformers Bumblebee, or any given GMod or Source Filmmaker video.

You might want to say "Go get 'em, guys!" but you're saying it in 3 different voices, or bits from the same guy's voice but oddly clipped since they were in a different context before.

[The Aboleth]

Errrm, nothing? Kenku can talk just fine, it just sounds like one of those creepy videos where they splice together the words from various different people (or from a dead celeb). I.e. Not natural.

This seems logical and in line with what I was thinking, but the fluff gave me a vibe of "They're not supposed to be able to have a long, wordy conversation but are more supposed to communicate simple ideas using various sounds and the occasional string of simple words." The fluff makes a big deal about the Kenkus not having voices of their own, and the crunch under the "Languages" trait says (bolded emphasis mine): "You can read and write Common and Auran, but you can speak only by using your Mimicry trait." Seems weird to me that they would make a big deal about the whole Mimicry thing is players were just supposed to handwave conversations as "They can speak in full sentences, it just sounds like different voices."

Maybe I'm just reading/inferring too much into it, though.

[Hrugner]

I assumed they were like the boxer from Batteries Not Included. Treating them like a spoken ransom note seems weird, but probably easier to deal with.

[Knaight]

This seems logical and in line with what I was thinking, but the fluff gave me a vibe of "They're not supposed to be able to have a long, wordy conversation but are more supposed to communicate simple ideas using various sounds and the occasional string of simple words." The fluff makes a big deal about the Kenkus not having voices of their own, and the crunch under the "Languages" trait says (bolded emphasis mine): "You can read and write Common and Auran, but you can speak only by using your Mimicry trait." Seems weird to me that they would make a big deal about the whole Mimicry thing is players were just supposed to handwave conversations as "They can speak in full sentences, it just sounds like different voices."

I'd have interpreted the fluff more as them being well positioned to use common phrases, to repurpose entire long speeches just fine, and to generally just approach conversation as if they had a premade list of phrases to pick from instead of talking like a normal person.

[Tetrasodium]

Because they are not human & have a different brain structure (https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/songbirds-recognize-songs-the-way-humans-recognize-vowels/).
Normally inserting science to justify things in a RPG is rife with disaster; but in this case I think it works well since there is no real explanation besides the fact that they are birdlike. Since the actual reason for birds is pretty simple to understand, it carries over well to kenku as well.

[JackPhoenix]

They can mimic voices, but they can't separate the sounds and string them together to create different sentences. If they hear someone say "Good day!" and "See you in the morning!", they can perfectly repeat either sentence, but they wouldn't be able to take one word from each to say "Good morning!"

[Chugger]

They can mimic voices, but they can't separate the sounds and string them together to create different sentences. If they hear someone say "Good day!" and "See you in the morning!", they can perfectly repeat either sentence, but they wouldn't be able to take one word from each to say "Good morning!"

This.

Not "fluff" by the way, if you play it "right".

Very hard and challenging. And can lead to a Kenku causing a TPK when the right words would have meant clear sailing. Hardly fluff. Life and death.

I've seen a Kenku player fill out a notebook trying to write every word said at table. Then the player, when forced to talk, would feverishly scan the notes and say something wildly funny - it was great.

You could clear a list of pre-heard phrases with the DM but why ruin the fun? Kenku is not for everyone. But if you think you're ready for this kind of challenge, give it a try. It's hard.

[RSP]

It states they can read and write language with no issues, so they can clearly put original thoughts together (otherwise they need to institute a restriction on their writing). As writing equals 'putting known words together in a coherent fashion,' I'd assume they can do the same with the words they've learned from different sources (a la the talking ransom note analogy)

[Temperjoke]

They probably lack the creativity necessary to put together a sentence like that, by cutting and pasting the individual pieces of other sentences and words.

[Hrugner]

Because they are not human & have a different brain structure (https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/songbirds-recognize-songs-the-way-humans-recognize-vowels/).
Normally inserting science to justify things in a RPG is rife with disaster; but in this case I think it works well since there is no real explanation besides the fact that they are birdlike. Since the actual reason for birds is pretty simple to understand, it carries over well to kenku as well.

You should read the original research, that author doesn't understand what they read. http://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1666

We can skip the author's confusion though, and cut to the heart of the difference.


An additional implication of our results is that unlike humans, songbirds may not have largely independent percepts of pitch and timbre (a possibility also suggested by ref. 45). Although hearing scientists have often considered pitch and timbre as distinct dimensions of auditory perception, this distinction may not be an automatic consequence of having a complex auditory system. Indeed, research shows that even humans do not always fully separate these percepts (46⇓⇓–49). For example, in a four-alternative choice task with two tones presented (no change, pitch change, timbre change, both change), nonmusicians reported that both pitch and timbre had changed 26% of the time when in fact the pitch had remained constant and only the timbre changed (50). Musicians, however, made this error just 2% of the time, even though the two timbres (piano vs. trumpet) were easily discriminable by nonmusicians. This raises the idea that the perceptual separability of pitch and timbre is experience-dependent (presumably musicians are better at perceiving pitch and timbre independently because they have more exposure listening to the same instruments playing at different pitches). Likewise, the perception of pitch itself may be more plastic than traditionally appreciated.

Essentially the perception of pitch and timber that is missing in birds is also missing in untrained humans. However, since all tone deaf humans do not also suffer from echolalia, we know that pitch and timber discernment isn't strongly connected to the use of speech.

Something that does seem to be related to both pitch and timber recognition and echolalia is brain plasticity. Many birds, including those used in this experiment, have seasonal changes in brain morphology. The starling's brain shifts during mating season making recognition of sound that much more specific. Other birds improve the parts of their brain related to spacial memory during fall months, as do many other creatures. The problem though is that these morphological changes are necessitated by a small brain. Humans aren't as constrained by brain size making their plasticity more dynamic.

In order for a creature to be restricted to mimicry only, and stick with a remotely scientific explanation, they would be on the most severe end of autism. Alternately, they could have some seasonal restructuring that causes their brain to develop speech normally but make them aphasic whenever they aren't in mating season. They would probably be pretty coherent during mating season though.

It's best just to let this be a weird fantasy thing though. Personally I wouldn't want this sort of racial fluff slowing down my game.

[Sigreid]

RAW they were simply cursed to not be able to. Gods can be pricks like that.

[Chugger]

You should read the original research, that author doesn't understand what they read. http://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1666

We can skip the author's confusion though, and cut to the heart of the difference.


Essentially the perception of pitch and timber that is missing in birds is also missing in untrained humans. However, since all tone deaf humans do not also suffer from echolalia, we know that pitch and timber discernment isn't strongly connected to the use of speech.

Something that does seem to be related to both pitch and timber recognition and echolalia is brain plasticity. Many birds, including those used in this experiment, have seasonal changes in brain morphology. The starling's brain shifts during mating season making recognition of sound that much more specific. Other birds improve the parts of their brain related to spacial memory during fall months, as do many other creatures. The problem though is that these morphological changes are necessitated by a small brain. Humans aren't as constrained by brain size making their plasticity more dynamic.

In order for a creature to be restricted to mimicry only, and stick with a remotely scientific explanation, they would be on the most severe end of autism. Alternately, they could have some seasonal restructuring that causes their brain to develop speech normally but make them aphasic whenever they aren't in mating season. They would probably be pretty coherent during mating season though.

It's best just to let this be a weird fantasy thing though. Personally I wouldn't want this sort of racial fluff slowing down my game.

I was going to say that some of the above posters clearly have no experience with autism, because there are at least few similarities. Autistic people can think and speak really really differently from neurotypicals (formerly known as "normal" people). I've worked with families trying to teach parents how to decode and understand what their autistic children are trying to say to them - I just do it for free (it's not my job - something I've picked up). And it can be very hard for non-intuitive highly left-brained (w/e that means) humans to pick up on. The more the dad, say, is an engineer or computer programmer (or typical left-brain type), the harder it is for him to grasp that his autistic son is trying to communicate to him and is not being random or just "insane". So very heartbreaking because many autistic kids are misinterpreted by _doctors_ and misdiagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and put on harmful meds with awful side effects that do nothing to help them - because they're autistic not P.S. And you can just watch the kid or young man be degraded by these meds and get worse, not better - and the doc or some social service threatens the parents when the parents take him off these meds - holy God it gets scary and awful how FUBAR things can get. So heartbreaking - so frustrating. But sometime you make breakthroughs and peoples' lives improve.

So the point is that some of us clearly have no real idea what a true or extreme mental "difference" is. Not saying you're bad for this - just saying you can study autism and research on songbirds and parrot speech and probably get some great ideas for implementing Kenku. If you want. If not, drop it. And if you run into an autistic person please be as kind and understanding as you can - they really need our help (they have an ocean of thoughts, often, but only a narrow drinking straw through which to express them - and what I just said, because it's figurative speech, would not be understood by a lot of people on spectrum - they'd take it somewhat or very literally and be very confused - stuck on how ocean and drinking straw could possibly make any sense at all and just not be able to gestalt how that could ever make sense - it really is a different way of thinking).

Anyway, if you don't want Kenku antics in your game - hey - just say no. Or just rule that Kenku speak difficulties are "lite" - i.e if they hear "good day" and "see you in the morning" they can then say "good morning". It is quite a challenge to do it the hardcore way and make the Kenku player write down all the phrases they've heard and limit them to that. And don't let them slow the game down. Make them come up with what they say pretty fast. But that's not for everyone.

[toapat]

I'd have interpreted the fluff more as them being well positioned to use common phrases, to repurpose entire long speeches just fine, and to generally just approach conversation as if they had a premade list of phrases to pick from instead of talking like a normal person.

so, quite literal scripted bioware NPCs

[polymphus]

It's a curse so uh ... magic, I guess.

Like, if a kenku tried, the curse would kick in and the sounds wouldn't come out?

I know A WIZARD DID IT is the standard fantasy copout, but literally a wizard did it.

[SaurOps]

RAW they were simply cursed to not be able to. Gods can be pricks like that.

That's more SAW than RAW. And I often suspect it to find its ultimate origin in attitudes that people had and still carry about parrots the the term "parroting" that proved to be wrong. So very, very wrong.

[JBPuffin]

Recognize that any kenku that's lived long enough in a city will probably be able to have full conversations of some kinds by virtue of being around so many people - it's not like your character hasn't lived before starting their adventuring career. It's probably the only problem I have with volo's making such a big deal about them not being able to speak and nerds all over the internet fighting for an interpretation which renders anyone who might want to play a kenku a jibbering unfortunate. Ugh.

[Sigreid]

That's more SAW than RAW. And I often suspect it to find its ultimate origin in attitudes that people had and still carry about parrots the the term "parroting" that proved to be wrong. So very, very wrong.

Nope, Volo's states directly that it's one third of the curse laid on them for betraying their master.

Though I guess it could be considered FAW, Fluff As Written. :smallbiggrin:

[Elastoid]

So there's a scene from this terrible old show called Kyle XY where he learns language from observation. He sees someone in like a juvenile detention center get juice from someone by loudly, rudely shouting, "Yo, let's get some juice down here! Sup? Everyone taking stupid pills around here? Juice me!" Later, with a family that's taken him in, he uses the same phrase, verbatim -- not understanding its abrasiveness. He simply understands that those combinations of words will procure juice for him.

While I understand that it doesn't make sense for a kenku to be able to understand and write in Common and yet be unable to discern the meanings of the words, remember this has nothing to do with the shape of their brains. Volo's Guide makes it clear that this is a magical curse that took away their voices and creativity. As writing is a creative art, it makes sense that any sentence spoken would be plagiarized. There's no reason a kenku would be able to rephrase a sentence to be more polite or more forceful, for example.

For that reason, I've always interpreted their Mimicry as comparable to the Kyle XY example -- you understand what an overheard phrase means, but don't know how to break it down and change it.

The word "malfunctioning" means "working in a way other than was intended." That's its meaning, and you can't change a few letters here and there to make it mean "tablecloth." You'd have to learn a completely different word to express a different concept. Similarly, for kenku, you could think of sentences or phrases they hear as individual words with very specific meanings. They couldn't replace one word with another to change the meaning.

A kenku who grew up in a slum surrounded by ruffians probably wouldn't know how to speak politely. He may learn that to procure money from someone, he must say "Give me your ****ing money or you die right here," or "Come on, man, just spot me till tomorrow, you know I'm good for it." He would understand that the former is a threat, and the latter is begging for a loan, but would not know how to take the sentiment out of these contexts. He might instead simply make the sound of gold coins in a purse, which -- to him -- is the easiest way to express the uncomplicated idea.

Certain basic concepts would be easy enough. He's probably heard someone say "How much?" and thus could go into a shop, point at an object, and say "How much?" But he'd be unlikely to say, "How much for that Bag of Holding." More, when the shopkeep said, "400 gold pieces," he could then go to his party mate and ask for it in the shopkeeper's voice. If the shopkeep had instead said, "That normally costs 400, but for you we'll make it 350," then the kenku would say the same thing, verbatim, to his companion.

If the kenku is forming new sentences, like "We need your help to kill the Giant," then there's something wrong. It just wrote a sentence, and they are cursed to lack the creativity to do so. Putting it in the voices of several people actually makes it worse -- you're providing evidence that the kenku is editing together bits of speech from other people in order to form its own thoughts, which is not a thing that a kenku should be able to do.

Even simple thoughts require creativity to express in language. Let's say you witnessed Doug killing Frank with a hammer. Do you put the emphatic thought at the beginning or end of the sentence? "With a hammer, Doug killed Frank," vs "Doug killed Frank with a hammer." Do you use the active voice or passive? "Frank was killed by Doug with a hammer." Do you use more descriptive or specific language? "Doug murdered Frank with a hammer." All of these are minor creative decisions that kenku cannot make. Unless they heard someone say "Doug killed Frank with a hammer," they won't say it.

They might relate that fact by repeating Frank's last words, "No, Doug! Don't kill me with that hammer!" They might repeat Doug's words: "Frank, I'm going to kill you with this hammer." They might repeat the sound of Doug killing Frank with the hammer. Or, they might find some other way to convey that idea. They would not, however, compose a sentence that expressed the thought that Doug had killed Frank with a hammer.

[Koren]

It's a curse so uh ... magic, I guess.

Like, if a kenku tried, the curse would kick in and the sounds wouldn't come out?

I know A WIZARD DID IT is the standard fantasy copout, but literally a wizard did it.

More like "a god did it" but basically how I interpreted it.

Besides, it's more fun trying to think of a phrase your Kenku might have heard, and can make for some interesting character interactions.

For example, my party was attacking a bunch of Orcs. I, being the rogue, scouted ahead and found the Orcish chief talking in the next room. I couldn't relay that directly, but my Kenku used to be a thief so I said something like "who steals from a king?" Or something like that.

It's also fun deciding drastic changes in how you sound. I would frequently imitate small children laughing in place of a regular laugh. Things like that.

[HandofBlades]

Been playing a kenku with another player playing my brother. The way we have been doing it is at the table we just speak in a funny voice to let folks know we are talking in character and that our voices actually is a wild jumble of various words spliced together from different peoples words. We have also renamed everyone in the party based off a sound they typically make in combat and refer to them as such. So our gun slinger is mrs bang bang the fighter is mr shwing shwing and such. Also I tend to do different voices when speaking at times to help convey the various sound bites we have picked up (bard and a rogue with a nice little I play he steals combo going) so we have a wide range of voices to work with and let folks know we are starting to sound more like the party cause we are around them all the time. Furthermore when I go off on a tangent or switch to a silly voice to describe something my brother is usually impressed I found a voice with all those words together so fun backstory bits on the fly.

There is also the fact my name is the sound of applause and his is the sound of silence so hehe. All sorts of fun.

[SaurOps]

Nope, Volo's states directly that it's one third of the curse laid on them for betraying their master.

Though I guess it could be considered FAW, Fluff As Written. :smallbiggrin:

You're making a diegetic argument; I am making a metatextual one regarding the person who conceptualized and wrote the monster, because kenku are not real and someone had to write them into their fictional existence.

[McNinja]

Or, just play a GOO warlock kenku and use telepathy. Problem solved :)

[Safety Sword]

Lyrebirds?

Can mimic lots of sounds, don't have the capacity for speech.

[Vingelot]

I'd have interpreted the fluff more as them being well positioned to use common phrases, to repurpose entire long speeches just fine, and to generally just approach conversation as if they had a premade list of phrases to pick from instead of talking like a normal person.


so, quite literal scripted bioware NPCs

Or like your common politician

[Azgeroth]

as others say, you basically have a series/set of pre recorded messages with which to communicate.

each must be played in full, and cannot be edited or changed, though you could string them together.

for instance you could say, "STOP IN THE NAME OF THE KING!" in a gruff guardsmens voice, followed by
"excuse me, could you help me please?" in an old ladies voice, then

"5 copper pieces for an ale friend" in a halflings voice.

this is how you ask for a beer.

[Spore]

Mimicking is NOT the same as speaking a language. Doctor Who's episode "Midnight" shows an entity that just can mimic until it has enough material to work out how to talk English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF9WxnttEj4

If you take away the - frankly incredible - ability to fully speak a language after just repeating 10 minutes worth of repeating sentences, you have a Kenku.

[SaurOps]

Mimicking is NOT the same as speaking a language.

It is a vital part of it, though.

[Officer Joy]

So there's a scene from this terrible old show called Kyle XY
I take offence with that statement. It was a perfectly decent show, with a unfortunate ending. But the pilot, that had that scene, was great.
Thanks for reminding me that it exists, going to find some time to watch it again soon-ish. (But not till the end).

[Arkhios]

A simple answer to a simple question:

Kenkus can't talk because it's a feature that affects the race's roleplaying value and race lore directly.

As always, you could just ignore the lore and roleplaying, but some people might not approve.

[polymphus]

Some DMs I've met will only allow Kenku if they DON'T do the mimic thing since it can get annoying quickly -- they vary wildly from person to person.

If you really want to run a talking kenku just ask your DM. In my experience, it's a coin-flip as to whether they'll allow it.

but yeah, I actually had a thread about this thread topic a while back (slight variation -- how does the kenku curse interact with Tongue of the Sun and Moon) and you can get pretty deep into the linguistics of it. There's a lot of vagueness about how the curse works, but kenku can clearly communicate meaning, or they wouldn't have any society etc. They wear clothes, they trade goods, and none of this would be possible if they had 0 way to communicate.

Eventually I landed on:

Kenku cannot create new verbal or written sentences, regardless of whether they're made by mimicry or not.

1) the curse prevents them from just stringing a bunch of remembered mimic words together. If they were to try, ***A WIZARD DID IT***
2) they are NOT prevented from making nonverbal communication
3) they are NOT prevented from mimicking whole sentences they have heard. They're not making a new sentence -- they're repeating verbatim and this counts as mimicry.
3a) this means they have a vocabulary of very short complete sentences they've heard, mostly expletives and imperatives ("go!" "fight!" "eat" "piss off" etc).

A kenku is not breaking their curse to flip the bird (so to speak) and say "bugger off" so long as they'd heard somebody else say "bugger off". What they can't do is make new sentences, or splice multiple sentences together like The Master from Fallout (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-UUTGamYp8), because magic prevents them.

[The Aboleth]

Recognize that any kenku that's lived long enough in a city will probably be able to have full conversations of some kinds by virtue of being around so many people - it's not like your character hasn't lived before starting their adventuring career. It's probably the only problem I have with volo's making such a big deal about them not being able to speak and nerds all over the internet fighting for an interpretation which renders anyone who might want to play a kenku a jibbering unfortunate. Ugh.

Yeah, this is basically what made me think of this thread's premise in the first place; if Kenkus are able to perfectly mimic any sound, then it stands to reason that those Kenkus who are living in an area where they can hear hundreds of conversations a week would be able to talk reasonably well enough than one who, say, lived in the wilderness and had limited contact with other people/races. To me, it seems like the creators thought of an interesting idea--"Let's make a race that can't talk but can communicate via mimicry!" and then came up with another idea that contradicted the first one--"They can perfectly mimic any sound they hear, including voices!" If it were me, I'd have made it so that they could mimic any sound except voices--yes, that would make it harder to roleplay, but at least that way the consequence of their racial curse would actually have some real weight behind it.

[Naanomi]

My Kenku priest acts like a mute much of the time, gesturing for normal stuff and writing out more complex info.

When verbal communication is necessary, I quote 'scripture' or lectures from scholars I heard at 'seminary'; or sometimes Koan-like 'wise person' statements

My name is 'scribbles' (the sound of someone writing with an ink pen very quickly)

[Chugger]

This thread - all over the place but no one flaming - is a an excellent snapshot of the positive side of this forum.

There is a bit of "expert syndrome" naturally (like that could ever go away), but still it's pretty funny to read objectively, while trying to assume an "outsider's" position (someone who knows little about our game n stuff). :D

[polymphus]

Hey look, I have a linguistics degree and I never get to use it. Gimme this one thing. :smalltongue:

[Naanomi]

Hey look, I have a linguistics degree and I never get to use it. Gimme this one thing. :smalltongue:
I teach paraverbal youth/young adults on the spectrum; a lot about this 'functional-communicative echolalia' is right up my alley as well

[Kane0]

When I hear 'Kenku' I think 'Junkions'.

[ATHATH]

So there's a scene from this terrible old show called Kyle XY where he learns language from observation. He sees someone in like a juvenile detention center get juice from someone by loudly, rudely shouting, "Yo, let's get some juice down here! Sup? Everyone taking stupid pills around here? Juice me!" Later, with a family that's taken him in, he uses the same phrase, verbatim -- not understanding its abrasiveness. He simply understands that those combinations of words will procure juice for him.

While I understand that it doesn't make sense for a kenku to be able to understand and write in Common and yet be unable to discern the meanings of the words, remember this has nothing to do with the shape of their brains. Volo's Guide makes it clear that this is a magical curse that took away their voices and creativity. As writing is a creative art, it makes sense that any sentence spoken would be plagiarized. There's no reason a kenku would be able to rephrase a sentence to be more polite or more forceful, for example.

For that reason, I've always interpreted their Mimicry as comparable to the Kyle XY example -- you understand what an overheard phrase means, but don't know how to break it down and change it.

The word "malfunctioning" means "working in a way other than was intended." That's its meaning, and you can't change a few letters here and there to make it mean "tablecloth." You'd have to learn a completely different word to express a different concept. Similarly, for kenku, you could think of sentences or phrases they hear as individual words with very specific meanings. They couldn't replace one word with another to change the meaning.

A kenku who grew up in a slum surrounded by ruffians probably wouldn't know how to speak politely. He may learn that to procure money from someone, he must say "Give me your ****ing money or you die right here," or "Come on, man, just spot me till tomorrow, you know I'm good for it." He would understand that the former is a threat, and the latter is begging for a loan, but would not know how to take the sentiment out of these contexts. He might instead simply make the sound of gold coins in a purse, which -- to him -- is the easiest way to express the uncomplicated idea.

Certain basic concepts would be easy enough. He's probably heard someone say "How much?" and thus could go into a shop, point at an object, and say "How much?" But he'd be unlikely to say, "How much for that Bag of Holding." More, when the shopkeep said, "400 gold pieces," he could then go to his party mate and ask for it in the shopkeeper's voice. If the shopkeep had instead said, "That normally costs 400, but for you we'll make it 350," then the kenku would say the same thing, verbatim, to his companion.

If the kenku is forming new sentences, like "We need your help to kill the Giant," then there's something wrong. It just wrote a sentence, and they are cursed to lack the creativity to do so. Putting it in the voices of several people actually makes it worse -- you're providing evidence that the kenku is editing together bits of speech from other people in order to form its own thoughts, which is not a thing that a kenku should be able to do.

Even simple thoughts require creativity to express in language. Let's say you witnessed Doug killing Frank with a hammer. Do you put the emphatic thought at the beginning or end of the sentence? "With a hammer, Doug killed Frank," vs "Doug killed Frank with a hammer." Do you use the active voice or passive? "Frank was killed by Doug with a hammer." Do you use more descriptive or specific language? "Doug murdered Frank with a hammer." All of these are minor creative decisions that kenku cannot make. Unless they heard someone say "Doug killed Frank with a hammer," they won't say it.

They might relate that fact by repeating Frank's last words, "No, Doug! Don't kill me with that hammer!" They might repeat Doug's words: "Frank, I'm going to kill you with this hammer." They might repeat the sound of Doug killing Frank with the hammer. Or, they might find some other way to convey that idea. They would not, however, compose a sentence that expressed the thought that Doug had killed Frank with a hammer.
I like this, but wouldn't that mean that they also couldn't perform communicative gestures unless they saw someone else do them first? Would they have to perform any communicative gestures that were made when their sentences were first spoken? Would they be unable to combine communicative gestures and sentences unless they were originally performed together?

[Saeviomage]

You could also take it from a "the kenku sees no need to do it" point of view.

ie - from the previous example "juice me". If that phrase works, and your culture is highly utilitarian (or your brain is highly effective at storing one-to-one relationships between sounds and concepts), then why would you remember multiple phrases? If the phrase you typically use stops working, you change it to a new one, but you ditch the old one.

So it's not so much a case of "no Kenku can learn language properly". It's just that Kenku that take the time to actually master a language are incredibly rare and possibly considered insane by other Kenku.

[smcmike]

I don't think the idea is to make the Kenku impossible to play, which is what removing the ability to mimic voices would do. The idea is to have some fun at the table repeating dumb catchphrases in squawky voice, or to take it as a puzzle.

What it really reminds me of is the Ascian language from Book of the New Sun, where members of a dystopian society were only permitted to communicate in quoted propaganda. Naturally, they found a way to communicate just fine. There is a similar Star Trek episode.

I'd play a kenku monk or cleric from a strict religious background and invent dumb aphorisms for everything.

[Chugger]

Kenku is not for everyone. If your table is more oriented toward optimizing and tactics and not much actual role-playing, forget it - don't go kenku - just drop it.

If you're at a table where role-playing is appreciated, where people are (perhaps) more "creative" and looking for more than an optimized fight (and only wanting an optimized fight is okay - it's fine - if that's what makes you happy good - not saying you're "bad"), then Kenku can possibly shine.

I've seen Kenku played strictly (only what the player has heard - they have to write it down) and it's hilarious and, in a bizarre way, can be made to work.

Really, beyond that ... aren't we done here ...? (of course we aren't - just wanna see what happens, hah!)

[The Aboleth]

Kenku is not for everyone. If your table is more oriented toward optimizing and tactics and not much actual role-playing, forget it - don't go kenku - just drop it.

If you're at a table where role-playing is appreciated, where people are (perhaps) more "creative" and looking for more than an optimized fight (and only wanting an optimized fight is okay - it's fine - if that's what makes you happy good - not saying you're "bad"), then Kenku can possibly shine.



Why not both? I think a Kenku, played smartly, can really shine in both combat and role-playing situations.

After reading through everyone's thoughts on this thread, I think I want to give it a shot playing as a Kenku Bard. Raised in a Bardic College, his Mimicry ability allowed him to shine in his studies--he can re-tell the most epic of Bardic stories and sing the most moving of Bardic songs to perfection, expertly hitting the highs and lows to bring the crowds to extreme levels of joy and sadness. The populace loves him, but other Bards despise him because while he can perfectly recreate the stories and songs of other Bards, this Kenku (due to his racial curse) is incapable of creating his own stories. They see him as nothing more than an adept plagiarist rather than a true Bard--after all, they say to themselves, it takes creativity and improvisation to be a real Bard, no matter how flawlessly one can tell or sing a story people have heard a thousand times over.

This Kenku, then, would be a sort of tragic character--he yearns to create his own tales and be seen as a "real" Bard, but his racial curse prevents him from channeling the creative abilities necessary to do so. Distraught at this notion but determined to change it, he goes on an adventure in the hopes of finding a way to lift his curse so that he can not just recite a glorious tale, but make one of his very own.