What stat is ADHD a hit to?

[Zhentarim]

I'm just curious, really. I'd think wisdom, but wisdom also involves empathy and there are a lot of empathetic ADHD'ers.

Edit: I have severe ADHD, moderate anxiety, high-functioning autism, and mild chronic depression (dysthymia). I am part of the in-group here.

[Technetium43]

It's almost like mental illness doesn't actually play well with a reductionist and simplistic system of statistics...

But seriously, every person with ADHD has slightly different 'aspects' of it that tend to take a hit, so there's no real actual 'thing' to always drop. Not every person with ADHD has sensory problems (spot and listen), and nearly every person with ADHD has SOME sort of situation that they can focus well in (so no concentration drop either). It's just not something that can be represented easily.

[BWR]

Why should it affect any ability score at all?

[Erys]

I would just give a -5 to concentration checks. :smallcool:

[Halae]

You know, trying to put it down purely as a stat is kind of offensive to the people that actually have the problem. your phrasing was also kind of offensive, as I don't think I've ever heard the term "ADHD'er" before, and it comes across like calling someone a trannie.

If you really wanted to use it in a game, I'd just put it down as a Roleplaying thing, not attach mechanical constraints to it.

[Zhentarim]

You know, trying to put it down purely as a stat is kind of offensive to the people that actually have the problem. your phrasing was also kind of offensive, as I don't think I've ever heard the term "ADHD'er" before, and it comes across like calling someone a trannie.

If you really wanted to use it in a game, I'd just put it down as a Roleplaying thing, not attach mechanical constraints to it.

I'm in the group so I'm allowed.

My version is very severe and doesn't respond well to any medicine. I do well in school only because I pick up abstract concepts really quickly so I test well, and can usually focus alright on test if it is high stakes (smaller ones are harder). With me, I'm either so focused on one thing I enjoy I don't register any other information besides that related to that thing, or I'm so out of focus that I don't do anything productive for weeks at a time. After getting fired a lot, I finally got a job I can hold onto, but I can tell I'm not well liked because I'm inefficent (one way I compensate for my trouble with attention is going very slowly and being very ritualistic with things I don't enjoy but still need to do). I'm ambitious money-wise, though, and am training to be a psychotherapist. Therapists help me, and while I will still likely need to do therapy as a therapist, but therapists make good money, too, so at least the financial stress I deal with will be gone and maybe I can get a wealthy wife, too. Sorry I didn't make myself clear that I suffer from several mental illnesses.

[ngilop]

Ok, this is actually very insulting to me. 1) I have severe ADHD 2) just because you are in a group does NOT give you carte blanche to do what ever it is you feel like. 3) You have moderate anxiety, high-functioning autism, and mild chronic depression (dysthymia) also. Those or any combination of the above is actually going to impact what you as a person can and cannot do

in the end. ADHD should not have a negative impact on any of your stats. if you look at the facts those with ADHD tend to have higher IQs than those who do not.

I ould agree with the penalty to concentration though, maybe not a -5.. like a -2 or -3


Also I just cannot get out of the way in my brian the fact that I feel your post is total BS and you are just making things up.

[Zhentarim]

Ok, this is actually very insulting to me. 1) I have severe ADHD 2) just because you are in a group does NOT give you carte blanche to do what ever it is you feel like. 3) You have moderate anxiety, high-functioning autism, and mild chronic depression (dysthymia) also. Those or any combination of the above is actually going to impact what you as a person can and cannot do

in the end. ADHD should not have a negative impact on any of your stats. if you look at the facts those with ADHD tend to have higher IQs than those who do not.

I ould agree with the penalty to concentration though, maybe not a -5.. like a -2 or -3


Also I just cannot get out of the way in my brian the fact that I feel your post is total BS and you are just making things up.

Yes, my IQ is about 150. But yeah, I suffer from it, so I know people overly offended by it are just being thin-skinned. Fact is, it impacts me, and I'd say it is probably a -2 wis, +2 int, +2 cha condition based on what I've seen in myself and others. But, yeah, I know I have issues and just try to work around them. I just felt like it would be interesting to make it a thing in a real online game. I have to add it in face to face games pretty much most of the time, but I haven't gotten much face to face play in a couple years, and thought it would be a cool and personal trait to add. Also, relax, as this is merely a game.

[Halae]

Also, relax, as this is merely a game.
You're not dealing with a game here. You're dealing with a mental illness as it relates to a game. One is for fun; the other is a serious issue, and there's a reason people are offended over the way you posted. Being part of an "in-group" does not allow you to be blase about it, as you were just informed. It should go to show you that it is an issue that should be handled with seriousness.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Honestly, ADD and ADHD strikes me as things best reflected by roleplay than hard numbers.

I mean, maybe a hit to concentration, but that's already been mentioned.

If you had to make it a mechanic, instead of roleplay (and I really, REALLY wouldn't do this), I'd say make a character with ADD/ADHD roll concentration checks for skills/tasks that take more than a few rounds.

I don't see how having ADD/ADHD would make you less smart, or wise, there's no reason to be taking a stat hit.

[Crake]

You're not dealing with a game here. You're dealing with a mental illness as it relates to a game. One is for fun; the other is a serious issue, and there's a reason people are offended over the way you posted. Being part of an "in-group" does not allow you to be blase about it, as you were just informed. It should go to show you that it is an issue that should be handled with seriousness.


Ok, this is actually very insulting to me. 1) I have severe ADHD 2) just because you are in a group does NOT give you carte blanche to do what ever it is you feel like. 3) You have moderate anxiety, high-functioning autism, and mild chronic depression (dysthymia) also. Those or any combination of the above is actually going to impact what you as a person can and cannot do

in the end. ADHD should not have a negative impact on any of your stats. if you look at the facts those with ADHD tend to have higher IQs than those who do not.

I ould agree with the penalty to concentration though, maybe not a -5.. like a -2 or -3


Also I just cannot get out of the way in my brian the fact that I feel your post is total BS and you are just making things up.

If you're triggered by this thread, report it and move on, and let the devs decide if they think it's worth having around or not, or simply just avoid it. Don't come into the thread and start a flame war, which by the way is specifically against the rules, so you're actually opening yourself up to an infraction.

I personally don't think there's any reason to feel insulted that someone wants to roleplay and better understand the effects of a mental disorder, because getting into their shoes means that they can better empathize with them in the future. Getting uppity because of the way it was worded is unecessary, they're just words, get over it.

[Mithril Leaf]

I think a fairly balanced and reasonable interpretation of ADHD would be a penalty to concentration checks and bonus to initiative checks. Less direct focus on the task at hand, but greater situational awareness and ability to switch tasks. Could be less than universally applicable, but if you have a legitimate desire to represent things in the game, it feels alright.

[Mordaedil]

Yes, my IQ is about 150.

IQ measurements above 100 are kinda meaningless, because they basically boil down to luck, their main purpose is to measure learning contingency and are barely useful for measuring people in the below 100's. Also, they've stopped giving people the results of their IQ results so I'm kinda curious where you decided to get measured, keep in mind that online surveys are extremely weighted in favor of giving the tester a huge ego boost and you are unlikely to have less than 150 if you passed grade school.



But yeah, I suffer from it, so I know people overly offended by it are just being thin-skinned. Fact is, it impacts me, and I'd say it is probably a -2 wis, +2 int, +2 cha condition based on what I've seen in myself and others. But, yeah, I know I have issues and just try to work around them. I just felt like it would be interesting to make it a thing in a real online game. I have to add it in face to face games pretty much most of the time, but I haven't gotten much face to face play in a couple years, and thought it would be a cool and personal trait to add. Also, relax, as this is merely a game.

From having been around people who suffer from ADHD my whole life, I think it's kind of unlikely that you can assert yourself accurately in this respect. Remember that it's a condition that is disadvantageous compared to a normal functioning member of society, also keep in mind that ADHD afflicted tends to rub people the wrong way, so I don't quite see why they'd have a charisma bonus. Add to that most people with ADHD have difficulty focusing and don't actually perform better in school or anything, that is more likely unique to you if you do.

Generally, being stuck with any non-typonormal behaviors really sucks and isn't a bonus at all, regardless of your outlook. If you experience that you are doing well and feel better at things than others, that might be because you already had good rolls, were born with fortunate parents and that your medication gives you advantages to negate the penalties you were unfortuneately born with.

Sorry to say.

[Psyren]

I think the drawback or small penalty mentioned would be best. For anything more severe, you should work with that player to come up with something specific to their character rather than devise some "one-size-fits-all" systemic approach.


If you're triggered by this thread, report it and move on, and let the devs decide if they think it's worth having around or not, or simply just avoid it. Don't come into the thread and start a flame war, which by the way is specifically against the rules, so you're actually opening yourself up to an infraction.

So is vigilante modding, just saying.

[Crake]

So is vigilante modding, just saying.

The intent was more friendly advice than vigilante modding, though in retrospect I can see it does look that way.

[NOhara24]

I'm just curious, really. I'd think wisdom, but wisdom also involves empathy and there are a lot of empathetic ADHD'ers.

Edit: I have severe ADHD, moderate anxiety, high-functioning autism, and mild chronic depression (dysthymia). I am part of the in-group here.

None. If a player approached me wanting to bring his real-world conditions into the game in the form of mechanical penalties, I would politely tell them no. Part of the joy of playing a game like D&D is to see what its like being someone else for a bit. I fail to see what fun bringing what I'm hoping are doctor-diagnosed conditions into a game can bring.

If you want to RP your ailments, I don't think you'll find it hard since you have them already. But again, I fail to see how they could make a game more enjoyable.

[Zordran]

+5 bonus to one skill, +2 bonus the three skills.
-5 penalty to one skill, -2 penalty to three skills.

Determined randomly.

[Malimar]

Some unfortunate implications to calling it a "flaw", but...

Flaw: Short Attention Span
You have little patience, causing you to have difficulty concentrating on repetitive tasks.
Benefit: You suffer a -2 penalty on all skill checks made to retry an action that you previously failed. This penalty is cumulative, increasing by -2 for every failed attempt. In addition, you may not take 20 on any skill check.

EDIT: Oh, Pathfinder tag, my bad. Maybe rework it as a Drawback, then. And now that I look, a similar thing was already mentioned as a 3rd party Drawback upthread, so I have nothing new to contribute. Sorry.

[Psyren]

None. If a player approached me wanting to bring his real-world conditions into the game in the form of mechanical penalties, I would politely tell them no. Part of the joy of playing a game like D&D is to see what its like being someone else for a bit. I fail to see what fun bringing what I'm hoping are doctor-diagnosed conditions into a game can bring.

If you want to RP your ailments, I don't think you'll find it hard since you have them already. But again, I fail to see how they could make a game more enjoyable.

I think RP'ing ailments is fine. What I don't think is fine is trying to blanketly codify "Disorder X means -Y to Z stat." They mean very different things to different people, and trying to represent that mechanically with one broad stroke is tone-deaf at best.

[Snowbluff]

I don't see a concentration penalty at all. Some ADHD people can focus on specific things they are interested in (I would hope a wizard would be interested in magic and a life or death situation). More like a penalty to perception and sense motive, as you are not paying attention to your surroundings, or at least not the relevant.

[TheIronGolem]

I don't see much of a need for extra rules to denote the impact of these conditions, when the game system already supports granularity in skill levels.

If a character has trouble understanding other people, give that character few or no ranks in Sense Motive. If they have trouble making themselves understood by other people, give them few or no ranks in Bluff/Diplomacy. If they have trouble concentrating on certain tasks, give them few or no ranks in whatever skills are appropriate to those tasks. That goes beyond skill points, too; if the character isn't supposed to be good at wizarding, don't give them a bunch of Wizard levels.

Just spend character resources on the things the character is supposed to be good at, and don't spend them on things they're not supposed to be good at.

[dude123nice]

I'm just curious, really. I'd think wisdom, but wisdom also involves empathy and there are a lot of empathetic ADHD'ers.

Edit: I have severe ADHD, moderate anxiety, high-functioning autism, and mild chronic depression (dysthymia). I am part of the in-group here.

Wait, why are you saying that wisdom involves empathy in general? To my knowledge wisdom is mainly used in wild empathy for rangers and druids, and I imagine that is because they are supposed to be using their knowledge of the natural world in order to relate to the animals better. Still, wisdom and charisma penalties would probably represent autism, but for ADHD it's better represented by concentration and maybe initiative penalties, like others have already said.

[BWR]

Wait, why are you saying that wisdom involves empathy in general?

I assume the OP is using a definition of 'empathy' that doesn't include feeling the feelings of the subject as well as understanding them/correctly guessing them based on a variety of non-verbal cues and knowledge. And if that is the case, Wisdom being the stat for perception and correctly interpreting non-verbal communication (Animal Handling and Sense Motive), empathy would be tied directly to it.

[Nibbens]

As a lifelong ADHDer, myself (I have no problem with the phrase as I find normalizing it within my community is made easier by a healthy dose of self depreciating gallows humor (ie. My ridiculous brain, etc etc.)) I can say that this would be better role-played than given stat penalties.

Take this for example:

if the average observation ability of someone (of the world around them) is at a 6, when someone addresses them that 6 becomes a 3, however their ability to focus on the person addressing them becomes a 8.
My own observation ability would rest at around a 4, but when someone addresses me the world around me remains a 4, but my focus on that person becomes a 8 or 9.
To further muddy the waters, if that person addressing me does not get my attention before doing so, they start at a 4, just like the world around me and slowly ramp up to that 8 or 9. However, i lose about half of what they say to me because my brain is busy processing what they said to me while receiving new information (something I don't do well). I then overcompensate, and begin hyper focusing on the person speaking to me so I don't lose any more information that they say. They become a 10, and the world around me becomes a 1 or 2.

Now, if we take this and attempt to codify it into game mechanics, you'd spend the better part of a day just attempting to figure out what "normal" attention looks like before you could even begin to define abnormal and then translate it into game mechanics.

ADHD is not a negative or a positive and should't be reflected as a hit to a stat or set of stats. It's just a different way of processing information. Save yourself the trouble, pain and potential heartache that might occur at the table - just keep it to RP.

[Wartex1]

As someone else with ADHD, I wouldn't put it as a stat penalty, but there is a race listed as Ganzi (sort of like a chaotic tiefling, and I can't remember the name of the 3.5 version) that in part of its description, it says it has trouble focusing (and thus takes a -2 racial penalty).

Now, this is different whether stats are a purely objective benchmark for abilities or just a collection of traits that happen to synergize well (maybe that guy with 18 Strength isn't actually physically stronger than the guy with 16, but just knows how to better carry heavy objects and swing things). In the former, I wouldn't use it at all, but with the latter, ADHD as a penalty to INT does make some sense. It's not that the character is actually objectively less intelligent, it's just that their difficulty focusing makes it harder for them to learn skills and function as one of the more studious classes (Wizard and Alchemist).

[FireJustice]

Main problem is the system

just as losing an arm/hand/finger doesnt necessarily mean you get a tank on STR, CON, DEX - but sure you can think that will impact some task (attacking? innitiative? Reflex saves? skills?) can you enumerate every single one?
or having movement impairment (one foot broken, two legs disabled, etc), again, not exactly ability penalty

a complex mental condition that, as explained above, can make you excel in some areas, and not so great in others, even temporally/mutable, not exactly easy to translate in the system

*Blablabla shorting the speech*

Pathfinder/d&d is the wrong tool to define such a complex thing, spend your time wisely.

[CIDE]

I would like to clarify for some people that seemed to take issue with the topics at hand. As someone here with ADD and a variety of other issues I find absolutely nothing wrong with bringing these issues to the table and trying to incorporate them. It's not insensitive. In fact, the idea that they're even asking about such things implies that they're trying to get more information to understand the topic better; the exact opposite of insensitivity in my mind. Phrasing could have possibly been improved for those more sensitive but overall no issues here.

For the mechanical aspect of the questions I'm kind of of the mindset that we don't needto do much. With the way the skills and feats system (and to some extent flaws) are already built it allows these things to be built into a character anyway.

[Zhentarim]

IQ measurements above 100 are kinda meaningless, because they basically boil down to luck, their main purpose is to measure learning contingency and are barely useful for measuring people in the below 100's. Also, they've stopped giving people the results of their IQ results so I'm kinda curious where you decided to get measured, keep in mind that online surveys are extremely weighted in favor of giving the tester a huge ego boost and you are unlikely to have less than 150 if you passed grade school.



From having been around people who suffer from ADHD my whole life, I think it's kind of unlikely that you can assert yourself accurately in this respect. Remember that it's a condition that is disadvantageous compared to a normal functioning member of society, also keep in mind that ADHD afflicted tends to rub people the wrong way, so I don't quite see why they'd have a charisma bonus. Add to that most people with ADHD have difficulty focusing and don't actually perform better in school or anything, that is more likely unique to you if you do.

Generally, being stuck with any non-typonormal behaviors really sucks and isn't a bonus at all, regardless of your outlook. If you experience that you are doing well and feel better at things than others, that might be because you already had good rolls, were born with fortunate parents and that your medication gives you advantages to negate the penalties you were unfortuneately born with.

Sorry to say.
I got a 150 IQ when I was tested back in 1st grade. I was a bit of a trouble maker back then, but most of it was because I was bored and already way ahead of the rest of the class. For me, my biggest issue with ADHD is forgetting where I am and what I'm doing and why. I leave things half-finished a lot and take a long time to make up my mind on things. I also have a sliwer reaction time than normal because I'm so deep in my own thoughts all the time. I say ADHD is a hit to WIS because while I do well in a purely academic setting, in any other setting, I struggle.

[Wartex1]

I got a 150 IQ when I was tested back in 1st grade. I was a bit of a trouble maker back then, but most of it was because I was bored and already way ahead of the rest of the class. For me, my biggest issue with ADHD is forgetting where I am and what I'm doing and why. I leave things half-finished a lot and take a long time to make up my mind on things. I also have a sliwer reaction time than normal because I'm so deep in my own thoughts all the time. I say ADHD is a hit to WIS because while I do well in a purely academic setting, in any other setting, I struggle.

You sound like a long-lost twin to me :smalltongue:

[Zhentarim]

You sound like a long-lost twin to me :smalltongue:

I went from majoring in nursing to sociology to education, and now I am finishing in General Studies in Humanities degree with a 3.75 GPA (I had a 4.0 till my grandmother died, then I started losing assignments and not turning stuff in and not showing up for finals...but I've gotten back up to 3.75). Undergrad is super easy, to the point I feel like somebody would need to be either really lazy or stupid NOT to have a 4.0, unless they are like me and had something bad happen to them. This is with ADHD...my mom keeps me organized, but I do everything else. Organization and noticing my surroundings are hard to me, but the abstract, theoretical nature of school suits me. It is a shame I fell into a general studies major at the end of my full ride scholarship...humanities seems like a flippant, unreal degree since anything I put on paper gets an A. If I got to do it over again, I'd do engineering, but since I don't have the time or money to go through that much more school, I'm just going to tack on a 2 year masters of social work at the end of this undergrad. That seems hands-off but helpful, enough, and I could manage that level of debt if I also work towards getting a therapist license. My ultimate goal now is to be a therapist with the government because they have the best schedule and get paid the most, especially if you become a therapist at the DOD.

[Wartex1]

I'm only just a college freshman in Engineering. School can be pretty tough depending on the classes (my school's Chem 1 and 2 are brutally difficult with the workload).

Anyways, back on topic: Definitely look to see if you can take a flaw if you can. Otherwise, either choose Int or Wis for a penalty. Maybe this character's ADHD affects them not with awareness, but with focusing and sticking to a given task and vice versa.