PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Martial Archetype: Boxer



Easy_Lee
2017-09-02, 11:36 PM
Here's an archetype designed to fill the brawler niche - a strength-based fist-fighter. I chose to base it on real-life boxing. To avoid too much rewriting, I thought it best to use the Fighter as a base class for this, as a brawler thematically has more in common with a fighter than a spiritual monk.

Without further ado:

Martial Archetype: Boxer

Boxing has long been a popular sport among soldiers, especially humans, dwarves, and orcs. Some boxers take this sport to the next level, developing lethal fists and inhuman endurance. Boxers’ speed, power, and evasiveness in combat are legendary.

New Fighting Style: Weaving

When you take the Dodge action on your turn and are not wearing heavy armor or wielding a shield, you may add your Dexterity modifier to your AC until the start of your next turn, even if your AC already includes your Dexterity modifier.

Boxing

Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the following benefits:

You can roll a D6 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike.
Any time you could add your Dexterity modifier to your AC, you may add your Constitution modifier instead.
When you use the Attack action and make an unarmed strike or take the Dodge action on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.
When an opponent misses you with an attack, the first attack you make against that opponent on your next turn has advantage.

Boxers are known to protect their hands with Handwraps. You learn to make these special gloves out of leather or cloth. Handwraps have a value of 1 gp, a weight of 0.1, and count as a weapon for the purpose of spells and enchantments. Spells and enchantments cast upon the Handwraps affect the wearer's unarmed strikes.

Exceptional Recovery

Starting at 7th level, when you regain hit points by spending Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, you may regain 1D10 additional hit points. Additionally, you may remove a level of Exhaustion whenever you finish a short rest.

Power Surge

Starting at 10th level, when you’re out of Action Surge uses, you may choose to Action Surge on your turn. If you do so, you gain a level of Exhaustion at the end of your turn. You cannot use this ability if you currently have any levels of Exhaustion.

Rapid Hands

Starting at 15th level, when you use the Attack action and make an unarmed strike or take the Dodge action on your turn, you can make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.

Iron Endurance

Starting at 18th level, whenever you use Action Surge on your turn, you regain hit points equal to your Fighter level.

Notes

I modeled this archetype after the Champion. It gains its iconic feature at 3rd level, an out-of-combat feature at 7th, a combat feature at 10th, enhanced damage at 15th, and a recovery feature at 18th. Like the Champion, Boxer features enhance the base Fighter’s actions and features rather than replacing them.
This archetype is meant to emphasize the important facets of real-life boxing, such as endurance and countering.
Handwraps, a fighting style, and the D6 hit die are necessary to make unarmed strike competitive for a Fighter. Otherwise, this archetype would be at a permanent disadvantage compared to other fighters, due to not being able to benefit from magical weapons.
By emphasizing Strength and Constitution, and by being able to wear armor while fighting unarmed, this archetype is distinct from the Monk. However, due to the wording of Boxing, it is also compatible with Monk if one wanted to make a Strength-based Fighter / Monk (unarmored AC would be 10 + Constitution + Wisdom).
Maximum unbuffed AC while Dodging and Weaving (assuming no beneficial feats, magical items, or other bonuses) is 22.
Edit: based on critique, specified that bonus action attacks require you to have made an unarmed strike with the attack action. A boxer might use another weapon for some attacks, but not all of them.

GrimZealot
2017-09-03, 12:58 AM
I think this works out pretty well. I can see you're being very mindful of keeping this class from falling too short or becoming over powered. Rapid Hands would threaten to be over powered if you gained it earlier, but at 15th level it really doesn't. The real world boxing concepts you've implemented do really come through clearly. Great subclass in my opinion.

I only have one incredibly minor complaint that can be completely ignored.
The Weaving fighting style clearly gets it's name from the Boxing term, which might sound strange if you utilized it while playing a non-Boxer Fighter. Since there's nothing here that says you can't get it as a non-Boxer, it could use a more general name. Not that it's really a problem.

Otherwise I like it. It is weird to have an unarmed fighter wearing Medium armor, but what's weirder is the D&D concept that unarmed brawlers should be unarmored.

GrimZealot
2017-09-03, 01:03 AM
I just re-examined it a little bit, but with your wording on this text, this doesn't actually keep a Fighter from attacking with a weapon.

There's nothing that says you can't utilize any of these features while holding a weapon and afterwords gaining extra unarmed attacks via bonus action. As an example, you can two-hand wield a Greataxe for d12 damage and attack with it 1-4 times depending on level as an action. Then afterwards use a bonus action for 1-2 unarmed attacks depending on level.

I'm not trying to imply that a Boxer suddenly forgets how to fight with a martial weapon, but did you intentionally allow this possibility with this text?

Mortis_Elrod
2017-09-03, 01:38 AM
Maximum unbuffed AC while Dodging and Weaving (assuming no beneficial feats, magical items, or other bonuses) is 22.


how do you figure? You can go plate armor plus a shield and weave plus dodge. even without shield at 20 constitution + weaving/dodge and plate armor you get 18+5 =23. 25 if you have a shield (you only need one hand for hitting).

Fixed. Saw that weaving doesn't allow for heavy armor. Seems legit now.


Good Subclass, has extreme synergy with barbarians too, maybe more so than monks.

Easy_Lee
2017-09-03, 11:14 AM
I just re-examined it a little bit, but with your wording on this text, this doesn't actually keep a Fighter from attacking with a weapon.

There's nothing that says you can't utilize any of these features while holding a weapon and afterwords gaining extra unarmed attacks via bonus action. As an example, you can two-hand wield a Greataxe for d12 damage and attack with it 1-4 times depending on level as an action. Then afterwards use a bonus action for 1-2 unarmed attacks depending on level.

I'm not trying to imply that a Boxer suddenly forgets how to fight with a martial weapon, but did you intentionally allow this possibility with this text?

Thanks, revised based on critique.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-03, 12:01 PM
New Fighting Style: Weaving

When you take the Dodge action on your turn and are not wearing heavy armor or wielding a shield, you may add your Dexterity modifier to your AC until the start of your next turn, even if your AC already includes your Dexterity modifier.5e has a philosophy called Bounded Accuracy that basically prohibits large numerical modifiers. The goal is that a novice can succeed at even daunting tasks with enough luck or time (like a peasant spearing a champion knight) and an expert can fail at simple tasks now and again (like a master spy tripping and making a bit of noise).

+Dex AC breaks this rule by adding as much as +5 for a total of 24 AC with studded leather and a shield (and 25 with Defense fighting style). This is impossible to hit without a +5 modifier or a crit, and needless to say it leaves most PCs in the dust.

Instead, I'd let the fighter add proficiency to AC as a reaction, representing an active weave and not a passive bonus.


Boxing


When you use the Attack action and make an unarmed strike or take the Dodge action on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.
When an opponent misses you with an attack, the first attack you make against that opponent on your next turn has advantage.
The first one is gratuitous. Its effectively two-weapon fighting, but because it works in conjunction with Dodge it makes the boxer's already great defense far greater.

The second feels odd. A lot cam transpire between an attack missing you and your counterattack. I'd instead let the boxer retaliate with their reaction.


Exceptional Recovery

Starting at 7th level, when you regain hit points by spending Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, you may regain 1D10 additional hit points. Additionally, you may remove a level of Exhaustion whenever you finish a short rest. This feature is fine, but it scales poorly: the benefit is only worthwhile at higher levels if you take many short rests and spend very few hit dice each.

Also, it's not really boxing themed. And most importantly, a Fighter's 7th level feature is normally a utility meant not just for combat. I'm not sure what exactly to replace this with though.

Easy_Lee
2017-09-03, 04:11 PM
5e has a philosophy called Bounded Accuracy that basically prohibits large numerical modifiers. The goal is that a novice can succeed at even daunting tasks with enough luck or time (like a peasant spearing a champion knight) and an expert can fail at simple tasks now and again (like a master spy tripping and making a bit of noise).

+Dex AC breaks this rule by adding as much as +5 for a total of 24 AC with studded leather and a shield (and 25 with Defense fighting style). This is impossible to hit without a +5 modifier or a crit, and needless to say it leaves most PCs in the dust.

Instead, I'd let the fighter add proficiency to AC as a reaction, representing an active weave and not a passive bonus.

The first one is gratuitous. Its effectively two-weapon fighting, but because it works in conjunction with Dodge it makes the boxer's already great defense far greater.

The second feels odd. A lot cam transpire between an attack missing you and your counterattack. I'd instead let the boxer retaliate with their reaction.

This feature is fine, but it scales poorly: the benefit is only worthwhile at higher levels if you take many short rests and spend very few hit dice each.

Also, it's not really boxing themed. And most importantly, a Fighter's 7th level feature is normally a utility meant not just for combat. I'm not sure what exactly to replace this with though.

Bolded for reference points.

SCAG BladeSingers add their Intelligence modifier to their AC and can hit 23 with capped attributes.
Weaving doesn't allow a shield. The only way it's going higher than 22 is with feats, magic items, or multiclassing.
Adding proficiency to AC as a reaction would be overpowered. Adding proficiency to AC for one attack would be okay, but would overlap with Defensive Duelist.
It's fair to say a lot can happen between an attack missing and a counterattack. However, i felt that a reaction attack in response to an opponent missing would be too powerful, considering that should happen often to a fighter in general and a boxer in particular. That's something i wouldn't grant as a low level feature.
The level 7 feature shouldn't be too powerful since none of the level 7 features are all that powerful. But getting rid of exhaustion on a short rest is pretty good.
Real life boxers focus very heavily on endurance. Recently, Mayweather beat McGregor by wearing him down over many rounds, so McGregor couldn't defend himself any longer.

GrimZealot
2017-09-03, 06:10 PM
+Dex AC breaks this rule by adding as much as +5 for a total of 24 AC with studded leather and a shield (and 25 with Defense fighting style). This is impossible to hit without a +5 modifier or a crit, and needless to say it leaves most PCs in the dust.

Instead, I'd let the fighter add proficiency to AC as a reaction, representing an active weave and not a passive bonus.

The first one is gratuitous. Its effectively two-weapon fighting, but because it works in conjunction with Dodge it makes the boxer's already great defense far greater.

The second feels odd. A lot can transpire between an attack missing you and your counterattack. I'd instead let the boxer retaliate with their reaction.

This feature is fine, but it scales poorly: the benefit is only worthwhile at higher levels if you take many short rests and spend very few hit dice each.

Also, it's not really boxing themed. And most importantly, a Fighter's 7th level feature is normally a utility meant not just for combat. I'm not sure what exactly to replace this with though.

Like Easy_Lee already corrected, shields aren't compatible with the Boxer subclass or weaving.

You called the Weave a passive defense bonus as opposed to an active one, but it requires an Action on your turn to gain this bonus. If you're playing a Boxer before 15th level, you'd get off 1 unarmed attack as a bonus action at a most by spending your action to dodge. Not to mention that you'd only gain an attack off of a dodge if you're playing a Boxer as opposed to any other subclass. You're sacrificing a lot of potential damage output for defense by doing this frequently, especially of you're a 11th level Fighter or higher when you action buys you 3 attacks.

I have to agree with Easy_Lee that using a reaction for the counter attack feature actually makes it significantly stronger. Normally, you're not guaranteed an opportunity to spend a reaction to deal damage when it's not your turn, but allowing this as a reaction greatly increases your odds of doing so and increases your overall round to round damage output. Forcing you to spend your attacks on your own turn to benefit from this limits you significantly.
For example, if there is a dangerous enemy nearby that requires your attention, but a less important foe has missed an attack against you, spending a reaction to hit this attacker would benefit you immediately as you'd be free to ignore this enemy on your own turn to pursue the other target. If the counter attack only benefits attacks made using an action or bonus action, you have to spend attacks that could've otherwise been spent against the priority target. If you don't, you forfeit the benefit of this feature.
Additionally, while a lot could happen in between a target missing an attack against you and you gaining your advantaged attack against it, the D&D concept of turn to turn combat is that it's all happening within seconds. Conceptually, the actual time between the missed attack and the counter attack is somewhere between 1-12 seconds.

The short rest feature doesn't restore very much HP. It's true. It doesn't scale very well. Also true. I don't really feel that it matters or that it's the point of Exceptional Recovery. The point is to remove levels of Exhaustion. Arguably, this by itself might prove useless in situations where you're not forcibly given levels of Exhaustion by enemies or giving yourself Exhaustion. But the Boxer subclass DOES give itself levels of Exhaustion. Although, the feature that causes this is gained AFTER Exceptional Recovery, but only 3 levels afterwards.

On a final note, I think Power Surge should be usable even if you have 1 level of Exhaustion. I realize that being able to infinitely spam Action Surge is obviously broken in some edge cases despite the Exhaustion, but I think stacking Exhaustion is a fairly effective counterbalance. As a combatant you'd become more and more useless to the fight per round, and you'd be unable to work off all of the Exhaustion with just one rest, so you'd weaker for the rest of the day. The first level is arguably ignorable if you're not a skill based character (such as a grappler) anyways. It's followed up by having your speed halved, which HOPEFULLY can be ignored in situations where enemies you want to fight are coming to you. After that your attacks and saving throws all have disadvantage, your health becomes halved, your speed is zero, AND THEN YOU'RE DEAD.
If it still sounds broken, maybe you gain +2 Exhaustion levels per Power Surge after the first use. You're still strongly motivated to keep it at one use since it's tolerable and your Exception Recovery can mitigate the one level, and you're paying dearly just to use this repeatedly in the first place. Even if you had some sort of bizarre strategy such as utilizing this to cast spells, you can only cast once per turn anyways. If you're spamming projectiles to mitigate the movement drop, you're still going to have disadvantage on those attacks.
If you use this 4 times you're dead. Which I guess is pretty weird now that I think of it. Death just from 30 seconds or so of overworking sounds pretty pathetic. I don't know, what do you think?

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-03, 06:56 PM
SCAG BladeSingers add their Intelligence modifier to their AC and can hit 23 with capped attributes.Noted. I disagree with this design decision, but if the precedent exists I can't tell you no.


Weaving doesn't allow a shield. The only way it's going higher than 22 is with feats, magic items, or multiclassing.My mistake.


Adding proficiency to AC as a reaction would be overpowered. Adding proficiency to AC for one attack would be okay, but would overlap with Defensive Duelist.I meant for one attack, as with DD. It does overlap, but if anything I'd make DD a fighting style and make fighting styles accessible with a feat.


It's fair to say a lot can happen between an attack missing and a counterattack. However, i felt that a reaction attack in response to an opponent missing would be too powerful, considering that should happen often to a fighter in general and a boxer in particular. That's something i wouldn't grant as a low level feature.
Variant humans get a feat a 1st level: they can take DD and get this feature just as early. If you aren't a fan of variant humans, that's fine: you have every right to consider an in-game precedent wrong. But that brings us back to the SCAG Bladesingers: if precedents aren't to be followed, the Dex bonus to AC should probably go.

I personally consider the counterattack reaction strong, but not too strong if it's balanced around an offense-defense tradeoff. A high-defense-low-offense character will get to use the reaction often, but won't be hitting terribly hard in the first place. A high-offense-low-defense character will rarely use the reaction (unless they Dodge and reduce their offense!), meaning it's okay that the reaction will hit hard.

I'd balance the boxer around HDLO so it can dodge and weave fantastically, but hit only with the meager 1 + Str of normal unarmed strikes; after all, fists probably shouldn't deal as much damage as daggers, let alone shortswords. I might expand the subclass as a general unarmed fighter and offer grappling and shoving bonuses too.

Alternatively, you could let the boxer hit inexplicably hard and force the to sacrifice offense to access defensive tools (or remove the defensive options tools). Less thematically appropriate and less fun imo, but balanced.


The level 7 feature shouldn't be too powerful since none of the level 7 features are all that powerful. But getting rid of exhaustion on a short rest is pretty good.The level 7 feature shouldn't be to combat oriented. It should be useful in social interaction or exploration, not merely weak.

What special social skills might a boxer have? A keen intuition for others' actions, for one. What if the boxer could use a reaction immediately before its trigger, or maybe roll alternative ability checks when they foresee a poor outcome? Perhaps a limited number of times per day. I roll Intimidation. 6. The priest is reacting poorly just as soon as I square my stance. I change my mind and roll Persuasion.

What special exploration skills might a boxer have? Impeccable footwork, stamina, and general athletic. What if the boxer could pick one or two speeds from a list (climb as fast as walk, swim as fast as walk, crawl as fast as walk, jump double far/high)? Off the top of my head.


Real life boxers focus very heavily on endurance. Recently, Mayweather beat McGregor by wearing him down over many rounds, so McGregor couldn't defend himself any longer.I'm aware. I box. But warriors of all kinds—charging knights, steadfast hoplites, running slingers, acrobatic duelists et al—rely on endurance. This isn't particular to the boxer archetype: it's descriptive of the fighter class.

Admittedly, my suggestions aren't much more particular. Ask any fencer the importance of reading the opponent and applying footwork and you'll find that that's their whole sport. But at least those do what 7th level fighter features are meant to do.

DaveOTN
2017-09-04, 07:47 AM
When an opponent misses you with an attack, the first attack you make against that opponent on your next turn has advantage.


I might specify "...if it's an unarmed attack" here. Otherwise a 3-level fighter dip by a rogue gives you an automatic sneak attack whenever you're missed.

thatsi
2017-09-04, 08:48 AM
Thank yoU! :)