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Ogre Mage
2017-09-03, 01:10 AM
I was wondering what people consider benchmark spells for each level. These are the spells which demonstrate maximum capability for their level and function. They tend to be spells which you cannot go wrong by taking and are preferred by optimizers. For instance, shield is a benchmark 1st level spell as it provides a powerful defensive buff which can be cast outside the normal action economy (as a reaction). Fireball is a benchmark 3rd level spell as its effect -- 8d6 damage in a 20 foot radius AoE -- sets the damage standard for a spell of that level. The same could be said of its "sister" 3rd level spell, Hypnotic Pattern, an AoE debuff which does NOT allow subsequent saving throws if the first is failed.

My picks for benchmark spells by level --

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast.

1st level: Bless, Absorb Elements, Goodberry, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Dissonant Whispers, Shield, Sleep.

2nd level: Pass Without Trace, Hold Person, Invisibility, Misty Step, Suggestion, Web.

3rd level: Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Haste, Conjure Animals, Spirit Guardians.

4th level: Arcane Eye, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Banishment, Death Ward.

5th level: Wall of Force, Animate Objects. Possibly Hold Monster, but debatable.

6th level: Contingency, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Heal, Mass Suggestion.

7th level: Forcecage, Etherealness, Simulacrum, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity.

I'm not experienced enough with 8th-9th level spells to say. However, Wish is obviously a benchmark 9th level spell. Probably Foresight as well.

utopus
2017-09-03, 02:58 AM
I don't have a whole lot to add to your list, save for misty step as a 2nd level spell, and leomunds tiny hut as a 3rd

Kryx
2017-09-03, 03:02 AM
They tend to be spells which you cannot go wrong by taking and are preferred by optimizers
I think you mean outlier spells, not benchmarks. :smallamused:

There are many guides out there on spells - those have a lot of feedback and will typically live much longer than a thread will. For example Treantmonk's Guide to 5e Wizards (Spells) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit). You can find many other class guides on Guides, Tables, and other useful tools for 5E D&D (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491-Guides-Tables-and-other-useful-tools-for-5E-D-amp-D)

Regarding your list: Faerie Fire isn't considered a stand out spell, nor is Dissonant Whispers. Magic missile is ok, but mainly just reliable. Sleep scales quite poorly by RAW. Lightning bolt was missed at 3rd level.

Ogre Mage
2017-09-03, 03:33 AM
I don't have a whole lot to add to your list, save for misty step as a 2nd level spell, and leomunds tiny hut as a 3rd

I actually got interested in benchmark spells partially because of the debate about Misty Step in this thread:

Why is Misty Step a 2nd level spell? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534741-Why-is-misty-step-a-2nd-level-spell)

Kadarai
2017-09-03, 03:58 AM
I think you are misunderstanding (or I am) what a "benchmark spell" is. It should mark the average for the level. Eldritch blast could be THE best cantrip, not the average. Same goes for Wish for example. They are staple, they are very widespread, cause they are the ceiling, not a benchmark. Bless is not a benchmark, it's usually a must have that has no equal. Anything stronger than that should be a level above it.

Magic missile or Inflict Wounds could be a baseline damaging spell for its lvl. Scorching Ray or Invisibility for lvl2, Fireball and Gaseous Form for 3, Cone of Cold and Wall of Fire for 4 and so on.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-09-03, 04:15 AM
they are the ceiling, not a benchmark.

...A ceiling is a kind of benchmark, isn't it? I mean, if you're going to design new spells, that's the line in the sand that you can't exceed. Knowing the strongest allowable spell at each level is very useful for homebrewers.

To wit: 2nd level's ceiling is set by hold person, invisibility, misty step, scorching ray and web for my money.

I'd argue for adding circle of death at 6th level. It's best in class for clearing out large numbers of mooks or soldiers on a battlefield. A good 6th level spell should shut down any given encounter.

At 7th: finger of death, resurrection, symbol, teleport. A good 7th level spell completely eliminates a major logistical problem for the party or deals damage on the scale of symbol.

8th is for world-changing spells that don't quite compete with 9th level spells, so it's hard to pick out one as a benchmark. Antimagic field, control weather, glibness, tsunami might be 'typical' for what an 8th level spell should do.

I'd also add minor illusion to cantrips, silent image to 1st level and major image to 3rd level. They're the benchmarks for what an illusion should do.

Ogre Mage
2017-09-03, 04:26 AM
Regarding your list: Faerie Fire isn't considered a stand out spell, nor is Dissonant Whispers. Magic missile is ok, but mainly just reliable. Sleep scales quite poorly by RAW. Lightning bolt was missed at 3rd level.

I included Faerie Fire and Sleep because they are the most effective AoE 1st level spells. Gaining advantage against potentially multiple opponents is strong. Sleep can flat-out win an encounter by itself with no saving throw, although it loses much effectiveness once the game reaches Tier 2. But that doesn't change the fact it is powerful for the level it is introduced at. One could easily argue that Fireball becomes much less effective in Tier 3 -- but it is unquestionably a great spell when it becomes available in early Tier 2.

The power of Dissonant Whispers is damage on top of forced movement which can potentially provoke opportunity attacks. It isn't difficult to cast it in such a way so that it sets off multiple OAs if done right. This can lead to an absurd amount of damage. Wisdom saves are a weak point for many monsters, especially for the melee brutes who are most likely to be in a position to set off OAs when they fail their save. This is a strong effect for a 1st level spell.

Ogre Mage
2017-09-03, 04:36 AM
...A ceiling is a kind of benchmark, isn't it? I mean, if you're going to design new spells, that's the line in the sand that you can't exceed. Knowing the strongest allowable spell at each level is very useful for homebrewers.


Yes, that is what I was thinking.

Kryx
2017-09-03, 04:43 AM
Magic missile or Inflict Wounds could be a baseline damaging spell for its lvl. Scorching Ray or Invisibility for lvl2, Fireball and Gaseous Form for 3, Cone of Cold and Wall of Fire for 4 and so on.
Fireball is not baseline for 3rd level. It's by far the most damaging 3rd level spell and is identified as an outlier by the designers themselves.


This is a strong effect for a 1st level spell.
Your "benchmark" is mixing "average spell for the level" and "top tier spell for the level". By "Benchmark" you mean outlier. Sleep and Dissonant whispers are not outliers. They are middle of the power curve with sleep falling off hard as you level.

Another guide ranking spells: Arrive on Time - A General Guide to Wizardry (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469130-GUIDE-Arrive-on-Time-A-General-Guide-to-Wizardry&p=6707815#post6707815)

Sans.
2017-09-03, 04:47 AM
Mage Armour should possibly be on there, and probably Animate Dead. At second, Invisibility, Hold Person, maybe Phantasmal Force. 5th should clearly have Animate Objects. At 6th, Contingency is also good. 7th level spells are pretty awesome: Simulacrum, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity and Forcecage are all amazing. 8th, Clone and Feeblemind stand out, but my favourite is Maze because reasons. 9th, Wish is obviously the best, but if for whatever reason you aren't casting that, Foresight, True Polymorph, possibly Prismatic Wall.

MrStabby
2017-09-03, 11:58 AM
A benchmark is just a reference point - be it a maximum a minimum or any kind of average. I see no problem with benchmarking against the strongest spells as long as they are recognised as such.

Ogre Mage
2017-09-04, 01:14 AM
Your "benchmark" is mixing "average spell for the level" and "top tier spell for the level". By "Benchmark" you mean outlier. Sleep and Dissonant whispers are not outliers. They are middle of the power curve with sleep falling off hard as you level.

Another guide ranking spells: Arrive on Time - A General Guide to Wizardry (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469130-GUIDE-Arrive-on-Time-A-General-Guide-to-Wizardry&p=6707815#post6707815)

I looked at that guide and the author gave Sleep a gold rating at Level 1, although he acknowledges it becomes poor by Tier 2. A gold rating is the highest possible.



Gold is mandatory if you want to be optimal. It's a rare rating that denotes something that is so good that you must take it, or you can't call yourself optimized.

I also looked at two of the bard guides on the site. Mellored gave Dissonant Whispers a gold rating and Faerie Fire sky blue (the 2nd highest rating). Zardnaar gave Dissonant Whispers sky blue and Faerie Fire gold. So I am hardly alone in my opinions.

MrStabby
2017-09-04, 03:58 AM
I looked at that guide and the author gave Sleep a gold rating at Level 1, although he acknowledges it becomes poor by Tier 2. A gold rating is the highest possible.



I also looked at two of the bard guides on the site. Mellored gave Dissonant Whispers a gold rating and Faerie Fire sky blue (the 2nd highest rating). Zardnaar gave Dissonant Whispers sky blue and Faerie Fire gold. So I am hardly alone in my opinions.

Some spells differ a little by class. Mainly specialist spells. Likewise by DM. Faerie fire is a great example. It is a superb spell but becomes even better if you fight invisible creatures or low dex monsters that you need help hitting. If your DM makes it good it is totally superb.

The situational spells are better for a class like a wizard who can have more of them and swap them in and out as it looks like they will be useful. The opportunity cost of having a situational spell is not having a different spell on the day that it looks like you will want the specialist spell. The opportunity cost of selecting a specialist spell for a class like a bard is not knowing another spell on any day. What is a good spell for one class may not be so good for another .

Looking at ratings in guides is fine, but in addition to being subjective they are rating spells for that class and possibly just what the author considers a normal campaign.

Finally spells are somewhat dependant on party balance. Faerie fire once again is an example. It is ok if you have a 2 person party. It is crazy if you have a 7 person party.

Kryx
2017-09-04, 05:22 AM
Using guides - nice! That was one of my original points - you as a person can have an opinion, but the guides have been in existence for quite a while and have a significant amount of feedback. Nothing against you, but I trust those guides to be mostly accurate whereas I wouldn't trust some random forum post.

Sleep for example:

Sleep: This spell has traditionally been great at low levels and increasingly worse as you increase level, and look at that, tradition holds! At first level this spell is practically god-like (NO SAVE!). 5d8 is normally going to affect about 23 HP worth of creatures. That’s like 3 goblins! Or 0 trolls. See what I mean?
It's a solid spell at 1st level, but not an outlier. And since the game spends so littler time at 1st and 2nd level the progression value of the spell heeds to be taken into account and here sleep turns from solid to awful rather quickly.



Looking at ratings in guides is fine, but in addition to being subjective they are rating spells for that class and possibly just what the author considers a normal campaign.
This. Spell values are entirely different on a Sorcerer vs a Wizard.

Renduaz
2017-09-04, 06:14 AM
9th level - Going by strict RAW, True Polymorph could create a Galaxy-Sized rock and instantly destroy the Prime Material, a mountain of diamond, or any artifact. Since unlike every other spell, there are literally no limits on the objects being created, and these objects are permanent until dispelled.

8th level - Maze and Antipathy/Sympathy if you know what you're doing and have combos. Dominate Monster, Clone and Antimagic Field can all be amazing on their own right.

7th level - Simulacrum takes the spotlight as one of those spells which turn you into a God with the right use. Mirage Arcane, Forcecage, Plane Shift and Symbol.

6th level - Magic Jar is another "God" spell if you know what you're doing. Create Undead will give you 100+ Ghouls and about a dozen Wights to command for several hours, if you're an Elf and understand how to time it, and have access to tons of corpses or goblins or whatever. Regardless it would still give you an insane amount of minions. Planar Ally, depending on how much your patron likes you and how much gold you have. There is no CR limit, hell, there is no limit at all. Asmodeus could send you Tiamat or a Greater Deity could send you the Avatar of a Lesser Deity, depending on the importance.

5th level - Planar Binding, Planar Binding, Planar Binding, Planar Binding ,Planar Binding ,Planar Binding, Planar Binding. PLANAR. BINDING. Especially when cast at higher levels. Because which idiot, in this day and age, kills the boss/semi-boss Elemental/Fey/Fiend/Celestial which it's fighting instead of knocking it down, or subduing/dominating ( Dominate Monster will do just fine later on if you want to keep it simple ) or trapping it in a variety of ways, and adding it to your growing, infinite list of subjugated slaves, who never get a saving throw to break free, ever again. Even if the months or year is up. I hear about this thing called "re-casting" which you can do multiple times at your leisure until it takes hold before the original timing runs out. Wait, what happens if it succeeds? Oh right, nothing. You just cast it again. And what's a 1000 gold at these levels anyway, especially if you're binding the most powerful beings in the game?

Ogre Mage
2017-09-04, 06:26 AM
Upon further reflection, I think magic missile is not a top-tier 1st level spell after all and removed it. It is above-average due to never missing and force damage, but it isn't a spell which can have a huge effect on an encounter. It also has scaling issues like sleep without being the game-changer that sleep is. Most of the guides seem to concur with this.

Aymon
2017-09-04, 08:28 AM
Upon further reflection, I think magic missile is not a top-tier 1st level spell after all and removed it. It is above-average due to never missing and force damage, but it isn't a spell which can have a huge effect on an encounter. It also has scaling issues like sleep without being the game-changer that sleep is. Most of the guides seem to concur with this.
I have to disagree, I think it's top-tier, because of it's additional utility. Each missile is independent and guaranteed to hit, and each individual missile's damage is low enough that a party member may well welcome it. I've often cast it as an offensive spell, but divert a missile to a party member to wake them up or force another save.

Specter
2017-09-04, 08:30 AM
2nd level should definitely include Pass Without Trace. There are no other spells that provide a similar boon (+10 to one skill, shared with many people).

Ogre Mage
2017-09-04, 11:16 PM
2nd level should definitely include Pass Without Trace. There are no other spells that provide a similar boon (+10 to one skill, shared with many people).

I agree. This spell is highly rated across the guides and has been used to great effect in many of the games I have played in. It almost single-handedly solves the problem of group stealth. I am adding it to my list.

Several posters have made good suggestions for benchmark 2nd level spells and 7th level spells so I have added those to my list.