Swift Ambusher/ Astetic Rouge build (critic and discussion welcomed!)

[MulletMonk]

so the basic idea for the build is to stack unarmed combat progression from alternate class feature of swordsage and the skirmish damage from scout onto a skill monkey rouge.

I was thinking
Human
1st Rouge
feats: Craven, two weapon fighting
2nd Cloistered Cleric
feats: Knowledge devotion, travel devotion
3rd Scout
feats: X
4th Scout
5th Unarmed Swordsage
Feats: retrain X into astetic Rouge
Stance: assassin's stance
6th scout
Feat: Swift ambusher
7th level on rouge getting snap kick, improved skirmish, and staggering strike at some point

My DM has outlawed non player's handbook races and racial substitution levels. also has a house rule that once a skill has been a class skill it is always a class skill thereafter, also partial rank advancement for BaB and saves when cross classing.

I'm starting at level 5 and playing from there. Any feedback is greatly appreciated! :smallsmile:

Edit: Rolling up stats when I arrive at the session, pretty generous rolling rules, so I should have at least 2-3 good stats. I was thinking of focusing in descending order dex, con, int, str, wis, cha. again open to suggestions.

[ExLibrisMortis]

1) It's rogue, not rouge. Rouge is a type of make-up.
2) It's ascetic, not astetic. Aestetic is roughly "concerning beauty".

Interestingly, your misspellings together make more sense than either of them apart. Pretty cool!


Multiclass feats like Swift Ambusher and Ascetic Rogue tend to come online at mid-high levels. Stacking two of them only increases that effect. You're getting skirmish and unarmed strike damage on a rogue, but you need at least four levels to qualify (three scout, one monk*), and it costs two feats. Then, when you have the base abilities, you need to be able to trigger sneak attack and skirmish in melee, which requires some form of move + attack and some form of surprise/flanking/whatnot.

At level 15, you're looking at a scout 3/monk 1/rogue 9/swordsage 1/cloistered cleric 1 with 7d6 sneak attack, 5d6 skirmish, and 1d10 unarmed damage. Not bad, but tricky to use. Your swift action is required to move (Travel Devotion) and damage certain targets (gravestrike, vine strike). Lots of nice damage when you hit, though.

At level 5, you're looking at a scout 2/cloistered cleric 1/monk 1/rogue 1 with 1d6 sneak attack, 1d6 skirmish, and 1d6 unarmed damage. Your multiclass feats don't actually increase any of that, because there is only one rogue level to stack. You're behind a single-classed rogue with a shortsword, and you're going to stay that way for a few more levels, probably until you pick up swordsage 1 at level 9 (which will get you 4d6 SA, 2d6 skirmish, and 1d8 unarmed damage).


So, basically, the question is: How patient are you? Can you wait for those rogue levels to finally come online, or is it going to be a problem to be behind for a while?


You may be better off using weapons (kukri, shortswords) at lower levels, not taking a monk level or Ascetic Rogue. You can take unarmed swordsage 1 + Superior Unarmed Strike at level 9, allowing you to pick up Assassin's Stance (requires an initiator level of 5), and getting 1d8 unarmed damage immediately.

You could take the build in a whole different direction, doing something with Unseen Seer or Telflammar Shadowlord, but as prestige classes, they don't work well with any multiclass feat.


*Ascetic Rogue doesn't work if you don't have a level in monk.

[Gruftzwerg]

First, imho it's not a very good idea to stack even more "dice dmg"(skirmish) on sneak attacks, which are already dicey=spiky dmg.

You need to move for skirmish = a single standard attack unless you dip Barb 1 for Pounce ACF. And once you dip for pounce, going for "extra dice dmg" becomes more suboptimal, cause they don't profit from Charge-multipliers. With pounce, you start to aim for charge multipliers (= some kind of ubercharger).

As far as I can tell, you are looking for an unarmed stealthy damage dealer.
My clawlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880)is build with predator fluff and focus on unarmed (+claw dmg) attacks. A bunch of deception & perception skills/abilities are helping his predator theme. Have a look for some inspiration.

Another good way would be an unarmed swordsage variant going for TWF feats + snap kick + Bloodclaw Master. Again with the Barb 1 pounce (ACF) dip to unleash always your full dmg potential. There are many maneuvers you help you to position yourself for the next charge, if you should start misplaced.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You need to move for skirmish = a single standard attack unless you dip Barb 1 for Pounce ACF. And once you dip for pounce, going for "extra dice dmg" becomes more suboptimal, cause they don't profit from Charge-multipliers. With pounce, you start to aim for charge multipliers (= some kind of ubercharger).
Travel Devotion is fine for your full-attacking needs. Not everything is about pounce + charge multipliers. It's a bit easier to flank when you're not bound by straight movement.

[Rebel7284]

Don't have the time to look everything up, but I recall there was a Halfling monk substitution level that granted skirmish which may work with this concept. Add Invisible Fist to enable sneak attack.

Also, Hit and Run variant fighter allows you to add Dex to Damage against flat footed opponents and a free boost to initiative too!

Besides that, with fractional BAB and high stats, you are probably in a reasonable position to play something like this. You're not going to be amazing, but you'll be a fine tier 4.

[Gruftzwerg]

Travel Devotion is fine for your full-attacking needs. Not everything is about pounce + charge multipliers. It's a bit easier to flank when you're not bound by straight movement.

The straight movement restriction can be oversome by several means (Stagger from Drunken Master 2 or Bounding Assault maneuver or Twisted Charge skill trick or Fleet for Flood feat or Sudden Leap maneuver or ...).

The problem I see with combining sneak attack with skirmish is: now the character has 2 conditions to fulfill to have max dmg. And the dmg ain't higher as if he would have just focused on either one of em. It's just wasted potential and making combat unnecessary complicated imho.

While either one (sneak attack or skirmish) can be easily be combined with pounce.

I don't get all the hate against pounce/charge. You don't need to roleplay it always as a mindless weapon swinging barb. A pounce/charge build can also be played as swift and agile or even stealthy character.

And it's not my problem that 3.5 failed to have any dmg balance between classes and melee builds especially. If someone asks for dmg, I'll explain how to get to the higher lvls (of dmg). If he want lesser, it's his choice, not mine. I just try to give accurate answers in regard of dmg potential. He's trying to combine things that are really suboptimal together and will cripple his build for no good reason as far as I can tell.

[MulletMonk]

Thanks for all the feedback! Aestetic Rouge is an amazing observation, maybe I'll take a rank in craft alchemy and make some make-up.

As far as optimizing goes. I don't want the most damage ever, I'm looking for cool ways to make a roguish skirmisher work, the monk thing just looked like a cool unique thing to add in.

I appreciate all the feedback, I could drop the monk aspect to be honest, a reach weapon and armor spikes will give me the same versatility I was looking for I suppose. Is there anyway to stack swift Hunter and swift ambusher?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Is there anyway to stack swift Hunter and swift ambusher?
Uh, yes, but that'd get you a scout with Favoured Enemy and the ability to qualify for (but not use) ambush feats. Basically useless.

[MulletMonk]

Yeah, that's a bad stack. I'm just looking for something different with low casting ability. I've done the ubercharger and he puts out tons of damage, was also fun. Just looking for something different.

[barakaka]

If you can get your hands on the Landshark boots soulmeld, and used the Leaping Dragon stance from the Tiger Claw discipline, then you could jump on someone and get 4 attacks. Just find a way to hide first or get them flat-footed and you'll demolish them.