Death Domain Cleric help.

[ZealousEdge]

Hey everyone,

I am building a Death Domain Cleric in upcoming game with this arcane cleric.(See Arcane Domain Cleric Help Tread) I'm looking for any suggestions as well to see how well we will work together synergistically. Here is my build:
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 13
These stats reflect the bonus for variant human. I added +1 to Str and +1 to Wis. We are starting out at 5th level so I picked 1st level fighter and 4 levels in cleric. I picked the duel wielder fighting style along with the feats duel wielder and sentinel. Update: Our DM said we can all 3 benefit from sentinel. He also allowed me to trade the skill proficiency in human for one cantrip that my brother taught me. I chose flame blade obviously.. This will give me two attacks each turn, damage from flame blade, and divine strike at 8th. Thoughts?

[djreynolds]

Hey everyone,

I am building a Death Domain Cleric in upcoming game with this arcane cleric.(See Arcane Domain Cleric Help Tread) I'm looking for any suggestions as well to see how well we will work together synergistically. Here is my build:
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 13
These stats reflect the bonus for variant human. I added +1 to Str and +1 to Wis. We are starting out at 5th level so I picked 1st level fighter and 4 levels in cleric. I picked the duel wielder fighting style along with the feats duel wielder and sentinel. Update: Our DM said we can all 3 benefit from sentinel. He also allowed me to trade the skill proficiency in human for one cantrip that my brother taught me. I chose flame blade obviously.. This will give me two attacks each turn, damage from flame blade, and divine strike at 8th. Thoughts?

You can use the attack action or cast a spell, attack action for dual wielding or spell for even GFB even though it is spell cast through a melee attack

I see a paladin multiclass in your future. Oathbreaker or vengeance for divine favor or hunter's mark could fit nicely

[jaappleton]

Ok. I've played a lot of Clerics. Death was my favorite Domain.

And I see this a lot with Clerics, and it's a bit of a problem: No matter what you do, no matter how you build it, you aren't a Melee warrior. You will never be on par with a Fighter or anyone else like that.

From a pure optimization standpoint, dipping into Fighter for a Fighting Style is subpar. You're starting at lv5, but are giving up 3rd level spells by doing this. 3rd level spells are a MASSIVE power jump.

Now, if you have a particular vision for the character, go for it. If you think the drawback is worth it, it is your character, you can do what you'd like.

If you're concerned about not being able to make good weapon attacks as a Cleric, particularly due to Death's channel divinity, read it again: You need to make a Melee attack. Not a Melee WEAPON attack. So Spiritual Weapon and Inflict Wounds are applicable.

[Citan]

Hey everyone,

I am building a Death Domain Cleric in upcoming game with this arcane cleric.(See Arcane Domain Cleric Help Tread) I'm looking for any suggestions as well to see how well we will work together synergistically. Here is my build:
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 13
These stats reflect the bonus for variant human. I added +1 to Str and +1 to Wis. We are starting out at 5th level so I picked 1st level fighter and 4 levels in cleric. I picked the duel wielder fighting style along with the feats duel wielder and sentinel. Update: Our DM said we can all 3 benefit from sentinel. He also allowed me to trade the skill proficiency in human for one cantrip that my brother taught me. I chose flame blade obviously.. This will give me two attacks each turn, damage from flame blade, and divine strike at 8th. Thoughts?
Hi!

Soo. First of all quick notice: if you really want variant human for the feat, you'd really better chance those stats up. Not sure if you rolled (my guess is yes), but there is an awful lot of odd stats here. And you used your first ASI for another feat.

So your distribution is a good choice if...
- You really planned on taking a +WIS feat and +STR half-feat...
- Or specifically calculated to bump both stats at level 8 and are fine with being a bit subpar on casting side before.

Never mind that. If you intend to get Green Flame Blade and use it as your go-to attack, then all that investment in dual-wielding will be for naught, as bonus action TWF requires taking the Attack action, while using a cantrip is Casting a spell.
Just saying you cannot get everything at the same time. Having it as a "small AOE" is a good alternative though (which will end more powerful than 2 weapon attacks).
On that regard, also keep in mind you can "twin" any necro spell: Chill Touch may have a "bad" (often resisted) damage type, but on a properly optimized character it may be even more powerful than Green Flame Blade (simply because of range ;)).

This is a good build. Not "optimized" because of those slight redundancies and growing loss of efficiency of some features but certainly not bad.
If you like the TWF for fluff go for it. It's a good way to get a bonus action that doesn't use up resources like Healing Words or Spiritual Weapon, and a great damage boost at low level.

If you thought about taking it to optimize then these choices are justifiable (aka "good enough" ;)) until around level 11...
But then cantrips and more generally spellcasting will be plain better (even taking into account the spell slot consumption), whatever you actually cast, so that Fighter dip would bite you back. :) So if you expect your character to reach mid/high level, I'd rather suggest you drop Dual Wielder feat and Fighter dip and instead grab Warcaster as your starting feat: better defense (because you can wield shield whatever spell you use), better concentration (advantage), better OA (although you'd need Booming Blade rather than GreenFlame Blade to be compatible).

[bid]

So if you expect your character to reach mid/high level, I'd rather suggest you drop Dual Wielder feat and Fighter dip and instead grab Warcaster as your starting feat: better defense (because you can wield shield whatever spell you use), better concentration (advantage), better OA (although you'd need Booming Blade rather than GreenFlame Blade to be compatible).
Also note that warcaster does not work with sentinel, unless your DM yet again lifts that restriction.

[ZealousEdge]

Ok. I've played a lot of Clerics. Death was my favorite Domain.

And I see this a lot with Clerics, and it's a bit of a problem: No matter what you do, no matter how you build it, you aren't a Melee warrior. You will never be on par with a Fighter or anyone else like that.

From a pure optimization standpoint, dipping into Fighter for a Fighting Style is subpar. You're starting at lv5, but are giving up 3rd level spells by doing this. 3rd level spells are a MASSIVE power jump.

Now, if you have a particular vision for the character, go for it. If you think the drawback is worth it, it is your character, you can do what you'd like.

If you're concerned about not being able to make good weapon attacks as a Cleric, particularly due to Death's channel divinity, read it again: You need to make a Melee attack. Not a Melee WEAPON attack. So Spiritual Weapon and Inflict Wounds are applicable.

Part of my desire to go melee was to take advantage of Channel Divinity. It does say on p97 of the DMG that the Cleric must hit with a "weapon attack," not a melee spell attack and uses the words "weapon strike." Perhaps I don't understand though so please clarify. I do like having proficiency in Con and heavy armor with fighter and only plan on that single level of fighter. I fell like it builds the PC so that he has some decent melee ability and will focus on spells at higher levels against enemies where melee doesn't make sense. Thank you for your input!

[ZealousEdge]

Also note that warcaster does not work with sentinel, unless your DM yet again lifts that restriction.
Please explain. Warcaster states that when the creatures movement provokes an OA you can instead use your reaction to cast. If a creature uses disengage that would proc an OA and the WC ability due to movement if i'm understanding correctly.

[ZealousEdge]

Hi!

Soo. First of all quick notice: if you really want variant human for the feat, you'd really better chance those stats up. Not sure if you rolled (my guess is yes), but there is an awful lot of odd stats here. And you used your first ASI for another feat.

So your distribution is a good choice if...
- You really planned on taking a +WIS feat and +STR half-feat...
- Or specifically calculated to bump both stats at level 8 and are fine with being a bit subpar on casting side before.

Never mind that. If you intend to get Green Flame Blade and use it as your go-to attack, then all that investment in dual-wielding will be for naught, as bonus action TWF requires taking the Attack action, while using a cantrip is Casting a spell.
Just saying you cannot get everything at the same time. Having it as a "small AOE" is a good alternative though (which will end more powerful than 2 weapon attacks).
On that regard, also keep in mind you can "twin" any necro spell: Chill Touch may have a "bad" (often resisted) damage type, but on a properly optimized character it may be even more powerful than Green Flame Blade (simply because of range ;)).

This is a good build. Not "optimized" because of those slight redundancies and growing loss of efficiency of some features but certainly not bad.
If you like the TWF for fluff go for it. It's a good way to get a bonus action that doesn't use up resources like Healing Words or Spiritual Weapon, and a great damage boost at low level.

If you thought about taking it to optimize then these choices are justifiable (aka "good enough" ;)) until around level 11...
But then cantrips and more generally spellcasting will be plain better (even taking into account the spell slot consumption), whatever you actually cast, so that Fighter dip would bite you back. :) So if you expect your character to reach mid/high level, I'd rather suggest you drop Dual Wielder feat and Fighter dip and instead grab Warcaster as your starting feat: better defense (because you can wield shield whatever spell you use), better concentration (advantage), better OA (although you'd need Booming Blade rather than GreenFlame Blade to be compatible).

I did roll these stats and yes, they are weird lol. I do plan on either bumping up wis and str by one at 8th, but I didn't consider doing that with feats.Observant and Athlete perhaps.)Our DM has lifted the restriction on using GFB and said since I have Duel Wielder I can use a bonus attack along with GFB. Can you explain what you mean at the end with a better OA and booming Blade? I really appreciate the thought and suggestion and will take it into consideration.

[Degwerks]

I think he's trying to say that Booming Blade will do more damage on OA . At 5th level your OA while having Warcaster feat, Booming Blade will do weapon damage plus strength +1d8 thunder and since the OA is because they're moving away from you they take another +2d8 thunder damage from Booming Blades rider effect.

GFB will only do 1d8 fire + strength + weapon damage. Booming blade gives you 2d8 more damage when they move.

[Azgeroth]

oppurtunity attack, when a creature leaves your threatened area, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against that create,

warcaster, when you use your reaction to make a melee attack, you can instead cast a spell.

booming blade, you hit a target, if the target moves before your next turn, they take more damage.

if your making an OA against a target, they are already moving, meaning they immediately take the extra damage. very nice..

degworks beat me to it, but im leaving it here anyway..

[DarkKnightJin]

oppurtunity attack, when a creature leaves your threatened area, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against that create,

warcaster, when you use your reaction to make a melee attack, you can instead cast a spell.

booming blade, you hit a target, if the target moves before your next turn, they take more damage.

if your making an OA against a target, they are already moving, meaning they immediately take the extra damage. very nice..

degworks beat me to it, but im leaving it here anyway..

The combo is nice, but Sentinel shoots it down.
Sentinel makes it so enemies struck with the reaction attack have their speed reduced to 0, meaning they can't move and proc BB's rider.

[Citan]

I did roll these stats and yes, they are weird lol. I do plan on either bumping up wis and str by one at 8th, but I didn't consider doing that with feats.Observant and Athlete perhaps.)Our DM has lifted the restriction on using GFB and said since I have Duel Wielder I can use a bonus attack along with GFB. Can you explain what you mean at the end with a better OA and booming Blade? I really appreciate the thought and suggestion and will take it into consideration.
Well, your DM seems a very nice guy. ;)
So maybe he'll lift the (boring and imo overkill) restrictions set on Warcaster interactions with subsequent Erratas or tweets.
Per current RAI, you can't use Warcaster with a spell that would affect several creatures.
So, you could use a Magic Missile (as long as you target only one creature), but you couldn't use Shatter for example (because it doesn't "target one creature" in essence).
Since Green Flame Blade, by essence, also affects a second creature, it couldn't normally be used as Warcaster's "spell OA".
Now if your DM waives this, forget about what I said on BB being better. ;)

Same with Sentinel: per RAW it works (you can use Warcaster's feature) BUT you won't get the "0 speed effect" since Warcaster writes, black on white, that instead of making an opportunity attack, you do something else (although in the same timeframe).

(About stat bumps: honestly unless you like the benefits of Observant / Athlete, just a +1 in both STR and WIS at level 8 is probably the best way to go. ;))

[bid]

Please explain. Warcaster states that when the creatures movement provokes an OA you can instead use your reaction to cast. If a creature uses disengage that would proc an OA and the WC ability due to movement if i'm understanding correctly.
Yes, you are right. I was talking about the 3rd point and forgot the 2nd one.

OA is not used in the 3rd point of sentinel, you get an attack and only an attack.

[ZealousEdge]

I think he's trying to say that Booming Blade will do more damage on OA . At 5th level your OA while having Warcaster feat, Booming Blade will do weapon damage plus strength +1d8 thunder and since the OA is because they're moving away from you they take another +2d8 thunder damage from Booming Blades rider effect.

GFB will only do 1d8 fire + strength + weapon damage. Booming blade gives you 2d8 more damage when they move.
Awesome! Thanks buddy!

[ZealousEdge]

oppurtunity attack, when a creature leaves your threatened area, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against that create,

warcaster, when you use your reaction to make a melee attack, you can instead cast a spell.

booming blade, you hit a target, if the target moves before your next turn, they take more damage.

if your making an OA against a target, they are already moving, meaning they immediately take the extra damage. very nice..

degworks beat me to it, but im leaving it here anyway..

Yeah nice. Thanks!

[ZealousEdge]

The combo is nice, but Sentinel shoots it down.
Sentinel makes it so enemies struck with the reaction attack have their speed reduced to 0, meaning they can't move and proc BB's rider.

Sentinels attack wont proc until they move which would set off BBs rider and allow for an op attack THEN making their speed 0 if im not mistaken. So it would work i think.

[ZealousEdge]

Well, your DM seems a very nice guy. ;)
So maybe he'll lift the (boring and imo overkill) restrictions set on Warcaster interactions with subsequent Erratas or tweets.
Per current RAI, you can't use Warcaster with a spell that would affect several creatures.
So, you could use a Magic Missile (as long as you target only one creature), but you couldn't use Shatter for example (because it doesn't "target one creature" in essence).
Since Green Flame Blade, by essence, also affects a second creature, it couldn't normally be used as Warcaster's "spell OA".
Now if your DM waives this, forget about what I said on BB being better. ;)

Same with Sentinel: per RAW it works (you can use Warcaster's feature) BUT you won't get the "0 speed effect" since Warcaster writes, black on white, that instead of making an opportunity attack, you do something else (although in the same timeframe).

(About stat bumps: honestly unless you like the benefits of Observant / Athlete, just a +1 in both STR and WIS at level 8 is probably the best way to go. ;))
Lots of great stuff here. I didn't see WC replacing the OP attack speed reduction of sentinel so ty! I do think Ill go with BB instead due to the focus on single target and the rarely resisted thunder damage. And yes our DM kicks ass! He likes to use things that make sense but he doesn't get out of control IMO.

[ZealousEdge]

Yes, you are right. I was talking about the 3rd point and forgot the 2nd one.

OA is not used in the 3rd point of sentinel, you get an attack and only an attack.

Yep. Thanks!

[DarkKnightJin]

Sentinels attack wont proc until they move which would set off BBs rider and allow for an op attack THEN making their speed 0 if im not mistaken. So it would work i think.

Their moving would allow the attack to happen. Sentinel pops, BB is used as the attack for that. Sentinel's effect kicks in and reduces their movement to 0.
BB's rider states the creature needs to willingly move before the start of your next turn to take the extra damage. Guess what they can't do because you just reduced their speed to 0?

Sidenote: GFB targets 1 creature. It has a specific circumstance where a second creature may take damage from the spell. I'd personally allow GFB to be used with Warcaster.
Things like Eldritch Blast, which specifically state you can target multiple creatures is out, though.

[Citan]

Their moving would allow the attack to happen. Sentinel pops, BB is used as the attack for that. Sentinel's effect kicks in and reduces their movement to 0.
BB's rider states the creature needs to willingly move before the start of your next turn to take the extra damage. Guess what they can't do because you just reduced their speed to 0?

Sidenote: GFB targets 1 creature. It has a specific circumstance where a second creature may take damage from the spell. I'd personally allow GFB to be used with Warcaster.
Things like Eldritch Blast, which specifically state you can target multiple creatures is out, though.
As always...
You CAN (unless you have some Crawford tweet to show that I would not know ;)) use Eldricht Blast and the like with Warcaster.

Contrarily to Twin Metamagic wording ("when you cast a spell that targets only one creature") Warcaster wording is more lax ("the spell... must target only that creature").

Twin's wording is clearly enough restraining the perimeter to spells that can affect only one creature in essence.
However, Warcaster's wording can be understand either the same (because you have Twin in mind so you make a parallel) OR as a restriction made upon how YOU player use the chosen spell ("the spell -that you choose- must have a casting time of one action and must target only that creature -even if that spell could be used to affect multiple targets).

Considering the fact many spells (or non-spell features) can be used to affect one or several creatures indifferently, if you read Warcaster without keeping Twin in mind, there is no reason to disallow spells such as Eldricht Blast or Magic Missile or the like as long as all rays are directly solely at the creature that triggered Warcaster's feature. :)

If there is some (shameful imo) errata that I don't know off putting it off the table, but you as a DM would be tempted to still allow it (consequently as a houserule), feel free to do it, there is really nothing balance breaking here. ;)

[jaappleton]

In reference to Death's Channel Divinity, and Melee attacks:

There's numerous types of Melee attacks. Not all require weapons. The channel Divinity requires a Melee attack. Inflict Wounds and Spiritual Weapon are, in fact, Melee attacks. They are Melee Spell Attacks, and can be used to trigger Death's Channel Divinity.

If you're insistent on going into Melee with a weapon, I suggest you spend your VHuman Feat on Magic Initiate to get Shillaleigh from the Druid spell list and use a quarterstaff with a shield. This let's you fight using purely Wisdom, so you need not worry about Strength.

If you wanted one of the Cantrips from SCAG, start High Elf of Half Elf (High Elf) to get Booming Blade, and use Magic Initiate at lv4 for Shillaleigh. It's still key off Wisdom to hit via Shillaleigh.

[MeeposFire]

Their moving would allow the attack to happen. Sentinel pops, BB is used as the attack for that. Sentinel's effect kicks in and reduces their movement to 0.
BB's rider states the creature needs to willingly move before the start of your next turn to take the extra damage. Guess what they can't do because you just reduced their speed to 0?

Sidenote: GFB targets 1 creature. It has a specific circumstance where a second creature may take damage from the spell. I'd personally allow GFB to be used with Warcaster.
Things like Eldritch Blast, which specifically state you can target multiple creatures is out, though.

Just to be sure if you are talking about the reaction attack that sentinel gives you for enemies trying to disengage that does NOT work with warcaster. Warcaster only applies to opportunity attacks not any reaciton attacks and sentinel for that attack is only a reaction attack it is not an opportunity attack.

It is the old "a square is always a rectangle but a rectangle is not always a square" things. An opportunity attack is an attack that is a reaction but not every attack made as a reaction is an opportunity attack.


If that is not something you were talking about feel free to ignore this comment.

[MeeposFire]

In reference to Death's Channel Divinity, and Melee attacks:

There's numerous types of Melee attacks. Not all require weapons. The channel Divinity requires a Melee attack. Inflict Wounds and Spiritual Weapon are, in fact, Melee attacks. They are Melee Spell Attacks, and can be used to trigger Death's Channel Divinity.

If you're insistent on going into Melee with a weapon, I suggest you spend your VHuman Feat on Magic Initiate to get Shillaleigh from the Druid spell list and use a quarterstaff with a shield. This let's you fight using purely Wisdom, so you need not worry about Strength.

If you wanted one of the Cantrips from SCAG, start High Elf of Half Elf (High Elf) to get Booming Blade, and use Magic Initiate at lv4 for Shillaleigh. It's still key off Wisdom to hit via Shillaleigh.

I think people like having a weapon attack is due to divine strike which does require a weapon. As for weapon choice I actually like finesse weapons since death clerics do not get heavy armor and they get martial weapons so they get full access to dex weapons. This also opens up ranged weapons attacks. This also allows me to use magic initiate to pick up booming blade and have a nastier melee weapon attack.

[Dudu]

Hey everyone,

I am building a Death Domain Cleric in upcoming game with this arcane cleric.(See Arcane Domain Cleric Help Tread) I'm looking for any suggestions as well to see how well we will work together synergistically. Here is my build:
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 13
These stats reflect the bonus for variant human. I added +1 to Str and +1 to Wis. We are starting out at 5th level so I picked 1st level fighter and 4 levels in cleric. I picked the duel wielder fighting style along with the feats duel wielder and sentinel. Update: Our DM said we can all 3 benefit from sentinel. He also allowed me to trade the skill proficiency in human for one cantrip that my brother taught me. I chose flame blade obviously.. This will give me two attacks each turn, damage from flame blade, and divine strike at 8th. Thoughts?
Well, here's some advice from a guy who has been playing 5.0 cleric for a couple years.

No matter how much melee friendly the cleric domain looks, you're almost always better not relying on melee to do damage.

Death Domain is a prime example. You see martial wpns prof and necrotic dmg on weapon and think "damn, I using a real weapon to hit bad (or good) guys."
But Chill Touch two adjacent foes almost always outdamages it... from a range, with a more exotic type of damage (that bypass resistance, for you) and with a rider effect that gets increasably useful as enemies get tougher and tougher.

And that's just your cantrip. The cleric spell list adds another layer to that damage dealing. Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians being very useful in this department. When you have both of those spells on, the damage you will do with your weapon will sound unecessary. You'd better be doing something else with your action. If not Chill Touch, perhaps a spell, like Cure Wounds on a fallen comrade, revivify on a really fallen comrade, Freedom of Movement if someone is grappled, this kind of stuff. You're, afterall, a cleric, there's way more in you than just doing damage (which you can do really well).

Your stats are weird, too much odd number for no reason. Starting with fighter isn't a bad idea, but that's mostly due to prof in Con saves and heavy armor prof, also bigger HP. Perhaps the best fighting style might be defensive in his case, but it's your call. I like my cleric hard to kill, because you're the one to keep your friends alive, so no point in being a glass cannon.

[Dudu]

I think people like having a weapon attack is due to divine strike which does require a weapon. As for weapon choice I actually like finesse weapons since death clerics do not get heavy armor and they get martial weapons so they get full access to dex weapons. This also opens up ranged weapons attacks. This also allows me to use magic initiate to pick up booming blade and have a nastier melee weapon attack.
I also took a while to realize the Death's channel divinity could apply on melee spells attacks.

So far, the best vessel for that CD seems to be Spiritual Weapon.

[jaappleton]

Well, here's some advice from a guy who has been playing 5.0 cleric for a couple years.

No matter how much melee friendly the cleric domain looks, you're almost always better not relying on melee to do damage.

Death Domain is a prime example. You see martial wpns prof and necrotic dmg on weapon and think "damn, I using a real weapon to hit bad (or good) guys."
But Chill Touch two adjacent foes almost always outdamages it... from a range, with a more exotic type of damage (that bypass resistance, for you) and with a rider effect that gets increasably useful as enemies get tougher and tougher.

And that's just your cantrip. The cleric spell list adds another layer to that damage dealing. Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians being very useful in this department. When you have both of those spells on, the damage you will do with your weapon will sound unecessary. You'd better be doing something else with your action. If not Chill Touch, perhaps a spell, like Cure Wounds on a fallen comrade, revivify on a really fallen comrade, Freedom of Movement if someone is grappled, this kind of stuff. You're, afterall, a cleric, there's way more in you than just doing damage (which you can do really well).

Your stats are weird, too much odd number for no reason. Starting with fighter isn't a bad idea, but that's mostly due to prof in Con saves and heavy armor prof, also bigger HP. Perhaps the best fighting style might be defensive in his case, but it's your call. I like my cleric hard to kill, because you're the one to keep your friends alive, so no point in being a glass cannon.

If you can somehow get your DM to agree to use the Unearthed Arcana: Starter Spells, using Toll the Dead is AMAZING. I played a Death Cleric for awhile that used TtD and was able to target two enemies with it, so I'd go into Melee range and use a combination of both Hand of Radiance and TtD. Worked very well, I was a Warforged to get another +1 to AC.

[Dudu]

If you can somehow get your DM to agree to use the Unearthed Arcana: Starter Spells, using Toll the Dead is AMAZING. I played a Death Cleric for awhile that used TtD and was able to target two enemies with it, so I'd go into Melee range and use a combination of both Hand of Radiance and TtD. Worked very well, I was a Warforged to get another +1 to AC.
Oh, it was core only. Quite the arbitrary limitation if you ask me.

But since the party was necessarily neutral to evil (we were a bunch of selfish mercenaries) he was ok with me using the Death Domain from DM book.

And yeah, Toll the Dead is indeed amazing. At the current lvl we are, lvl 11, it would do 3d12 to two adjacent injured enemies. Brutal for an at will ability.