Hexblade: SCAG cantrips vs. extra attack?

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I'm playing a Hexblade right now and just hit level 3. We are using the updated UA invocations (with the curse-moving ability of Cursebringer added to the main class). I am trying to decide between tome and blade for my pact boon. The campaign is supposed to end at level 10, so Lifedrinker is not a variable. Other than Thirsting Blade, none of the blade-pact specific invocations seem particularly powerful or interesting.

So at this point I am deciding between the usefulness of an extra attack compared to the SCAG cantrips. How much offensive power do I lose if I focus on cantrips over an extra attack?


P.S. - I know the best offensive option is EB, even on Hexblade, but for now I'm going to ignore that option. Thanks.

[djreynolds]

No reason not to have both say BB and EB.

Now you have a source of force and thunder damage. And if you need more cantrips grab a level of sorcerer

But you can have hex going, and use BB or GFB as you go

The damage scales accordingly, 2 attacks say with a longsword is 1d8+5 & 1d8+5 or 1d8+5 and 1d8 but with a different damage type when you need it. Not many creatures resist thunder.

The question is are other cantrips important to you. Stuff like minor illusion I have used to communicate through picture when perhaps I couldn't speak a language.

But IMO, the damage is just about equal between an extra attack and cantrip

[Sirdar]

I would go Blade for the opportunity to nova with Eldritch Smite. But if you don't like that invocation it is not such a clear choice. Two attacks give you less restrictions to handel than GFB/BB (if you want to trigger the rider effects) so I would probably choose it anyway.

[Solunaris]

It depends if you want less of a gamble on your turn or potentially more damage. To explain further, going for the 2 attacks will be much more reliable round to round since you won't be throwing all of your eggs into a single die roll. With the cantrip, you'll deal slightly less damage if the rider doesn't proc and you have a much higher chance of doing no damage on your turn which can suck. The trade off for this is that if the rider does proc, you can potentially have more damage than just two single attacks.

Let me explain: after you get two attacks (assuming Strength is 18 at this point) you can deal 2d6+4 twice if both attacks hit or 22 damage on a perfect turn (discounting crits). With Booming Blade at that level you can deal 2d6+1d8+4 and an extra 2d8 or 24.5 damage on a perfect turn (again discounting crits).

But, you probably won't have a reliable way to make sure the rider procs and missing feels much worse when you only get one swing a turn. As the levels increase you naturally get better at hitting things since AC doesn't scale as well as Proficiency so this become less of an issue once you leave tier 2 gameplay. The cantrips also become a much better offence at 11th level since as a Warlock you won't get access to a third attack but the cantrips will continue to accrue damage dice.

It basically boils down to if you want a higher potential damage on a perfect turn or more reliable damage across the entire combat.

Edit: I'd personally go for the Cantrip since I love most of the base Invocations and Warlocks tend to have enough Cantrip room for my old standbys (Minor Illusion and Mage Hand). Also, the Cantrip is straight up a more powerful choice for you at 3rd level since you are still 2 levels from getting your Extra Attack Invocation.

[CaptainSarathai]

Strictly for damage, unless you can guarantee getting the rider, 2 Attacks gives you more at will, single-target damage.

In fact, getting 2 attacks and PaM or dual-wielding a second weapon is gonna give you the most damage.
SCAG only pulls ahead at 11th level, and even then, it depends where your attack stat is. SCAG would be 3d8+St. Extra Attack is 2d8+St. If your attack stat is 4 or greater, ta-da, you're throwing practically identical damage, pre-rider.

The other way that SCAG pulls ahead is during Multiclassing. It takes 5 levels of Warlock to get Extra Attack. It only takes 5 levels of anything to get the +d8 on SCAG. Add to this the opportunity to burn up Metamagic from the Sorcerer, and you start seeing results fast. It's like having 4 attacks on a lock, before the Fighter even gets 3. But hey, he'll probably best you on damage anyway.

The counterbalance to MCing though, is that you can get the Smite invocation, and having several attack rolls gives you more chances to land a Crit. Remember, SCAG puts all that damage on one roll; miss, and you waste it all and can't Smite.

[Laserlight]

Darkness + extra attack + curse = critical hits. Eldritch Smite so you can say "Hey, anybody have some d8s I can borrow ? I need ten of them. For my first roll."

[Ventruenox]

Asking to borrow the extra d8s is an odd feeling. It actually happened for me last session, and tossing all those dice on the table produced a "Holy [expletive deleted]" from the rest of the group, and also prompted them to try to play their characters more efficiently.

I went the GFB cantrip route, but do suffer from the all eggs in one basket phenomenon. In retrospect, I now wish I had gone for the extra attack.

[Solunaris]

Asking to borrow the extra d8s is an odd feeling. It actually happened for me last session, and tossing all those dice on the table produced a "Holy [expletive deleted]" from the rest of the group, and also prompted them to try to play their characters more efficiently.

I went the GFB cantrip route, but do suffer from the all eggs in one basket phenomenon. In retrospect, I now wish I had gone for the extra attack.

There is something to be said about even if you are doing statistically more damage with one attack a round the moral impact of missing a whole round of damage is gut wrenching.

"Sure, this choice is on average better, but it feels worse."

[Rebonack]

Hexblade with Eldritch Smite and Darkness shenanigans is one of the best crit-fishers around. More attacks means more chances to instantly gib something.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Based on the responses I think I will go blade pact, but also grab Greenflame Blade.

I will also try out Eldritch Smite. Its just that my initial reaction was to feel that using warlock slots on just single-target damage was a waste.

[Rebonack]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Based on the responses I think I will go blade pact, but also grab Greenflame Blade.

I will also try out Eldritch Smite. Its just that my initial reaction was to feel that using warlock slots on just single-target damage was a waste.

For what's it's worth, Eldritch Smite usually is a waste. Warlocks have better things to do with their limited slots than burn them on a few extra d8s of damage. But since you can toss in the smite damage after you know that you have pulled off a Crit, suddenly it serves as a nice source of situational burst damage.

Take a look at the Elven Accuracy feat, too. Lets you roll 3d20 when you have advantage, which you can easily obtain via Darkness. That means even higher crit chance.

[CaptainSarathai]

You have to be careful with relying on Darkness as a combat trick. It works great for you, but it shuts down ranged attacks and spells altogether for everyone else in the party - if your attack/spell requires line of sight, and you can't see in Darkness, then you can't target the attack. Warn your party before doing this. Sure, your combat effectiveness might skyrocket, but the actual, net-damage of the party, might decrease significantly. That said, if you can sell everyone on a 2-level Warlock dip, not only does the party become pretty filthy OP, but you also get major flavor wins for spreading the cult of your patron to the weak-willed.

Other options, other than Darkness, would be 2 levels of Barbarian for Reckless Attack. Grants advantage, and you don't have to cast Darkness. Make it even more hilarious, go 3 levels of Barb, take the Bear Totem, and go with Armor of Agathys. Why yes, I do grant you advantage - I also have [effectively] 30 extra HP and you eat 15 damage every time you hit me. Go ahead...

[SharkForce]

There is something to be said about even if you are doing statistically more damage with one attack a round the moral impact of missing a whole round of damage is gut wrenching.

"Sure, this choice is on average better, but it feels worse."

well, obviously you just dip some sorcerer levels so that you can quicken a booming blade and still get two attacks when you need it :P

[Citan]

I'm playing a Hexblade right now and just hit level 3. We are using the updated UA invocations (with the curse-moving ability of Cursebringer added to the main class). I am trying to decide between tome and blade for my pact boon. The campaign is supposed to end at level 10, so Lifedrinker is not a variable. Other than Thirsting Blade, none of the blade-pact specific invocations seem particularly powerful or interesting.

So at this point I am deciding between the usefulness of an extra attack compared to the SCAG cantrips. How much offensive power do I lose if I focus on cantrips over an extra attack?


P.S. - I know the best offensive option is EB, even on Hexblade, but for now I'm going to ignore that option. Thanks.
Hi!

Very simple answer: if you don't intend to multiclass (and I think you shouldn't want to if your campaign ends at 10 ;)) the optimization choice is Blade pact, no question.

Pick another weapon to dual-wield ASAP: with Hexblade, it's most always the best option.
(1d8+mod)+1d8 is the basic dual-wielding when not having the fighting style.
With Hexblade, it's critical on 19, you use CHA, AND you get proficiency damage as bonus.
So at level 3 it becomes: 1d8+mod+prof on first turn, then (1d8+mod+prof)+(1d8+prof) on next turns.

Once you get Extra Attack, it's (1d8+mod+prof)*2 + (1d8+prof) every turn. At level 6, provided optimized stats, it translates as...

3d8+3*3+2*4 for a whooping 13,5+9+8=30,5 average damage.
Compare with a dual-wielding Fighter of same level:
(1d8+mod)*3 = 3d8+3*5 (let's consider maxed stat) = 28,5 average.

Not too shabby. ;)

[Easy_Lee]

Since UA is allowed, I suspect the overall best option for you would be the following:

Pure Hexblade
Blade Pact
Two scimitars (keep an eye out for Vorpal ones)
Devil's Sight
UA Elven Accuracy

Assuming you have no other way to gain advantage, you cast darkness on yourself. Now you're rolling 3D20 for each of three attacks per round. If one attack crits, drop an Eldritch Smite on it for tons of dice + knocking the target prone for your allies, granting them advantage on their attacks.

Darkness isn't as bad for your team if you understand the rules. Darkness has a 15-foot radius, and you don't provoke attacks of opportunity while inside of it. Why? Opportunity attacks are triggered "when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach." And 15 feet is exactly enough of an area to move into melee, do your attacks, and move out of melee with a normal move. Even if you're fighting a boss, darkness doesn't have to inconvenience your allies at all.

Extra cheese: take two levels of Paladin at sixth and seventh level. Now you can smite twice when you crit. This is exactly as dumb as it sounds.