Lowering PC's saves

[lhilas]

Hey everyone, I'm currently the DM for a level 15 party of 3-4 players. We're playing with full wealth and they are mildly optimized. Lately I've noticed they never fail any save (except for reflex) because all of their saves are 22-31~. I do not intend to one shot them or anything but I feel like If sometimes they'll fail a save or two it will make fights more intense and therefore more fun.
The party characters are :a cleric, a barbarian bear warrior (300 hp :0) and a gish of fighter, swordsage revenant blade and an hex blade.
I would appreciate all help: spells, monsters, classes and everything else that can lower saves.
P.S.
If any of my players read this, I'm sorry and please remember that I love you :*)

[Eldariel]

Eh. There are some auras; for example, Hexblade Dark Companion applies a blanket penalty to saves. Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm) Aura of Despair also works. Then Binder and Bard (Doomspeak [Champions of Ruin] is a good one as is Haunting Melody [Eberron Campaign Settings]) have many ways to deduct saves. Spells are also great; simple Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fear.htm) will impose generic penalties even on a successful save. Lots of such spells exist (though of course, other effects can grant bonuses and immunities vs. Fear-effects - Sickened is a similar condition). There are also things like Spell Enhancer [SC] and similar effects make spells harder to resist, as do simple high casting/ability stats. Also feats; Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm), Spell Focus, etc. are quite obvious.

Another thing. If the PCs have good stats, it's reasonable to give NPCs 32pb equivalent stats too (say, 17/14/14/13/10/8) over the elite array 15/14/13/12/10/8 and monsters could get some shot in the arm; say elite array 15/14/13/12/10/8 over the 11/11/11/10/10/10 score (which is equivalent to 13/12/11/10/9/8). That's also likely to improve the save DCs quite considerably, and completely in line with higher PC stats. You can also just advance monster HD; HD directly improves save DCs. Gibbering Mouther (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gibberingMouther.htm) advanced to max HD with stat increases from HD put into Cha or Con and size increase bonuses to Con and some Ability Foci gets pretty scary DC-wise for example (CR8 has 12HD, 14 Cha, 26 Con, Ability Foci in Gibbering and Blinding Spittle for DC 19 Will-or-Confusion Gibbering and DC 26 Fort-or-Blinded Spittle). Of course, at CR8 your party would not have trouble with one probably, but it's an example of what advancing HD can do.


But remember, if the party invests in good saves, you shouldn't punish 'em for it. Let them have their usual success much of the time as it only makes sense. But some coordinated, leveled enemies might try to hit a strong point hard enough to break through still (and some might use no-save effects instead). Conditions, high save DCs, etc. and stuff might happen.

[Elkad]

Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spellcasting Prodigy (players guide to faerun version), and high casting stat (30), with a L8 spell is DC31

That's not terrible vs their +22 checks, so target their weak save.

And don't forget breaking their stuff (temporarily). Chained Greater Dispel works great. One badguy opens with it, targeting cloaks, vests, headbands, amulets, belts, etc.
When their Vest of Resistance +5 and their Headband of Wisdom +6 quit working, that's an effective -8 to Will saves.

Even a regular Chain Dispel has a good chance of disabling their lower CL gear, and a L11 sidekick (or a L9 one with a meta reduction ability/feat) can manage that before he dies.

[tedcahill2]

Hey everyone, I'm currently the DM for a level 15 party of 3-4 players. We're playing with full wealth and they are mildly optimized. Lately I've noticed they never fail any save (except for reflex) because all of their saves are 22-31~. I do not intend to one shot them or anything but I feel like If sometimes they'll fail a save or two it will make fights more intense and therefore more fun.
The party characters are :a cleric, a barbarian bear warrior (300 hp :0) and a gish of fighter, swordsage revenant blade and an hex blade.
I would appreciate all help: spells, monsters, classes and everything else that can lower saves.
P.S.
If any of my players read this, I'm sorry and please remember that I love you :*)

I know it's not necessarily the answer you're looking for, but have you considered using fraction saves? In other words, you do away with the bs of stacking the +2's at level 1, so all the saves progress as intended. I know 3.5 can be broken if you try to do so, but the designers A) never intended to have x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x class builds, and thus B) never intended people to have base saves in high teens.

[Elkad]

I know it's not necessarily the answer you're looking for, but have you considered using fraction saves? In other words, you do away with the bs of stacking the +2's at level 1, so all the saves progress as intended. I know 3.5 can be broken if you try to do so, but the designers A) never intended to have x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x class builds, and thus B) never intended people to have base saves in high teens.

Doesn't look like his party has a lot of dipping going on.

Cleric 15. Base+9. Wis probably 30ish(+10). Vest +5. That's already +24. Luck, Insight, Morale, etc can add quite a bit more.

[King of Nowhere]

Doesn't look like his party has a lot of dipping going on.

Cleric 15. Base+9. Wis probably 30ish(+10). Vest +5. That's already +24. Luck, Insight, Morale, etc can add quite a bit more.

I'm not aware of any item that gives bonuses to saving throws besides a ring of resistance +5, and I was therefore wondering how they could raise their ssaves so high. Even a stone of good luck, the only example I know of something giving a luck bonus to saviing throws, is only worth +1. And that's for a cleric's will save. Fort saves are bound to be much lower because one doesn't have +10 CON. How did those guys end up with saving throws so high?

[Eldariel]

I'm not aware of any item that gives bonuses to saving throws besides a ring of resistance +5, and I was therefore wondering how they could raise their ssaves so high. Even a stone of good luck, the only example I know of something giving a luck bonus to saviing throws, is only worth +1. And that's for a cleric's will save. Fort saves are bound to be much lower because one doesn't have +10 CON. How did those guys end up with saving throws so high?

There are items and spells for other bonus types and Superior Resistance spell is +6 Resistance. If they have persistent spells like Recitation, Mass Conviction, etc. Sacred, Luck, Morale & co. bonus types are open, and even without Persisting some long-duration buffs (e.g. Tyche's Touch) and other bonuses (ToB maneuvers, Resolute Fighter, Ruin Delver's Fortune Spell, etc.) exist.

Core has +1 Luck from Luckblade/stone and +1 Competence from Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone. SRD has +4 Insight to Will from Crystalmask of Mindarmor. And various stat buffs like Owl's Insight (separate from Owl's Wisdom, an Insight buff) or Polymorph (Any Object).

[haplot]

If you wanted to have a bad guy do some work before their big boss fight, how about poisons?

Yes, they generally have a save first, which theyd probably only fail on a roll of a 1, but in a locked room with gas for example one of them would surely be hit by the poison by the time they open the door.

Haven't got books to hand about the different types of poison, but im sure theres plenty.

Or if reflex saves are a biggie, nice long corridors with flame thrower type attacks (or breath weapons) so theyve got no where to dodge too.

[denthor]

At 15th level you expect saves to be automatic.

Barbarian is fort

Will save not so much. 4th level fear DC 19 my 9th level wizard can miss that on a roll of 11

They drop everything in there hands as well as flee for a round per level of caster. I saw 5 out of 10 miss that one.

5th level of fatigue no save no target no need to see enemy if in range your sunk same with 7th level waves of exhaustion.

You can have both of those spells at your level they hurt and no run no charge no rage.

Magic missile,

Please explain how a 15th level cleric has a 30 wisdom? I have been playing for years never got that high

18 start +6 item takes a slot 4th, 8th, 12th 16th for one point each gives me 28 age? 29. Now strength bonus goes down constitution goes down.

[Elkad]

Please explain how a 15th level cleric has a 30 wisdom? I have been playing for years never got that high

18 start +6 item takes a slot 4th, 8th, 12th 16th for one point each gives me 28 age? 29. Now strength bonus goes down constitution goes down.

Play something with a Wis bonus. Even +2 gets you there, and there are some +6 races. Lesser Aasimar for +2, Anthropomorphic Bat for +6 are two of the more popular ones. (With the 2nd one being decidedly cheesy in some games)
By 15th you should have some (maybe not full) bonuses from Wishes or a Tome as well.

30 is probably merely average at 15th.

[Pex]

Have environmental effects that require saves each round. They'll mostly make them, but when they roll the Natural 1 . . .

Unless a character has stalwart, there are effects that still do something even on a successful fortitude/will save.

Try an epic level creature, CR 21. It can be solo. If the party will TPK deus ex machina to get them out of it. You can tell the players out of character it was an experiment. It's ok for a PC or two to go to Death's Door, but don't kill since it is an experiment. If the party can handle it then you know they can handle CR +3/+4 encounters for normal BBEG encounters. The party would need the high saving throws.

[Eldariel]

Please explain how a 15th level cleric has a 30 wisdom? I have been playing for years never got that high

18 start +6 item takes a slot 4th, 8th, 12th 16th for one point each gives me 28 age? 29. Now strength bonus goes down constitution goes down.

9 base, +10 Wis, +6 Resistance, +1 Luck (Luckblade/stone), +1 Competence (Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone) is 27. Add Crystalmask of Mindarmor for +31. Or Owl's Insight with a caster level booster of any kind (Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Beads of Karma, Ankh of Ascension, Divine Spell Power, etc.) for +8 Insight to Wisdom for 1 hour for a total of +31 without items. It's a Druid-spell so it's a bit hard to access though, but it's not impossible either; Customize Domain can get it as can PRC. Other spells exist too. Tyche's Touch is +4 Sacred to your first save (+3 second, +2 third, +1 fourth), lasts 24 hours. Conviction,

[Malimar]

I know it's not necessarily the answer you're looking for, but have you considered using fraction saves? In other words, you do away with the bs of stacking the +2's at level 1, so all the saves progress as intended. I know 3.5 can be broken if you try to do so, but the designers A) never intended to have x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x class builds, and thus B) never intended people to have base saves in high teens.
A common misconception. Fractional still adds the +2 at first level in any class. Fractional saves will always be either the same or higher than regular saves.

You can house rule otherwise, but that would be a house rule, and not a very good one.

[Elkad]

A common misconception. Fractional still adds the +2 at first level in any class. Fractional saves will always be either the same or higher than regular saves.

You can house rule otherwise, but that would be a house rule, and not a very good one.


Not very good? Getting the bonus once makes the most sense (nevermind the RAW). I think it's a pretty common houserule.
Getting the +2 every time you dip is comparable to getting 4x skillpoints every time you take level 1 in a new class.