What happens if a Mazed target needs to reappear within an Antimagic Field?

[Renduaz]

Say you have a target, and a single Arcanist casts Maze ( "You banish a creature that you can see within range into a labyrinthine demiplane. The target remains there for the duration or until it escapes the maze." ) on it where it stands. Keep in mind, the concentration of the spell is purely on the creature itself and the demiplane it was banished to, not the area from which it was banished which is now empty and irrelevant. Then comes a second Arcanist, casts Antimagic Field on himself, and while not occupying the space which the creature previously stood on, comes close enough so that this space is now within the Antimagic radius. ( "When the spell ends, the target reappears in the space it left" ) - And remember, the Arcanist who Mazed the creature is not affected, since he is not coming within the area, and his spell is focused on the creature itself and the demiplane it's currently at.

Now, from "Antimagic Field" description:

"Magical Travel: Teleportation and planar travel fail to work in the sphere, whether the sphere is the destination or the departure point for such magical travel. A portal to another location, world, or plane of existence, as well as an opening to an extradimensional space temporarily closes while in the sphere.

So we seem to have contradictory RAW, in that "The target reappears in the space it left", yet at the same time, even if we did not assign a "magical" ( Which obviously it would to be, being both the result of a spell and hardly a natural phenomena ) nature to the transition from the Maze back to the space which the creature left, it is still clearly, semantically by RAW a form of planar travel ( Going from the "Labyrinthine Demiplane" back into the space it was transported from on the Prime Material Plane, or any other for that matter. ) RAW also tells us that some spell wordings override that of others ( Especially when it comes to Antimagic Field ) but the question remains which one overrides the other? Maze overriding Antimagic Field would be simpler, but not without a significant violation of Antimagic Field's description. And if Antimagic Field overrides the reappearance described in Maze, then once the spell ends, what happens to the creature? It's space isn't occupied ( A creature can stand within an Antimagic Field, obviously ), yet it cannot return. Would it theoretically remain in the Demiplane for an hour, since even though the Maze spell ended, "Maze" only states that it functions to keep the creature in the Demiplane until it can escape, but not that the Demiplane stops existing when the spell ends. In fact, the words "You banish it to" implies that it might have even existed in the first place. So would it essentially find itself barred from returning to the Prime Material Plane ( Or it's original location ) for an hour due to the Antimagic Field blocking it's return, regardless of Maze's concentration?

[Mellack]

It would be a DM ruling, so tables will vary. I would say that the target reappears at the closest safe location to the spot they left. Same as if the space was occupied.

[JNAProductions]

It would be a DM ruling, so tables will vary. I would say that the target reappears at the closest safe location to the spot they left. Same as if the space was occupied.

Agreed. That makes the most sense.

[Dimers]

The victim figures its way out of the Maze and that part of the spell ends, so they stop existing in the demiplane. But the remainder of the spell, tied to a place in the Material world, is indefinitely prevented from processing magical effects, so the victim doesn't resume existing here yet. Whenever the antimagic goes away -- be it a minute hence or a thousand years -- the 'return' magic triggers and the creature exists again. Until then it is stuck between moments, unaging, unchanging, unaware that time is passing elsewhere; in the victim's frame of reference there is no delay between exiting the Maze and returning to the real world.

It's more epic that way. :smallsmile:

Kinda want to use that for a doomsday save-the-world scenario, in fact. You have to stop the BBEG from ending the antimagic, because that would release some even worse creature from its time-prison between planes.

[MinotaurWarrior]

It would be a DM ruling, so tables will vary. I would say that the target reappears at the closest safe location to the spot they left. Same as if the space was occupied.

I might even go so far as to say it is occupied, by an anti-magic sphere.

[sir_argo]

I have a different take on the spell's wording. Obviously, this is going to end up a DM's ruling.

With spells such as Plane Shift, Teleport or Dimension Door the magic moves you to a new location and the magic ends. Essentially the magic ends either at the moment you appear at the new location or a split second afterwards. But this is important... the magic does not end before you appear. If the magic ended before you appeared at location X, then you'd never appear there.

With Maze, however, you reappear when or after the magic ends. It doesn't matter if the magic ends due to duration running out, lost concentration, or the creature making its save. The magic ends (first), then you reappear in your original spot (second). This insinuates that the magic is keeping you away and if/when the magic ends you come back.

I'd rule that the target of the Maze reappears in the original location even if there was an anti-magic shell there now.

[Renduaz]

I might even go so far as to say it is occupied, by an anti-magic sphere.

Technically I'm pretty sure that's not how "occupied" is defined in RAW, or else it would be a paradoxical to even cast the spell on "Self" or for creatures to enter your melee range while the spell is on you in the first place. But as a DM ruling like the others said, sure.


I have a different take on the spell's wording. Obviously, this is going to end up a DM's ruling.

With spells such as Plane Shift, Teleport or Dimension Door the magic moves you to a new location and the magic ends. Essentially the magic ends either at the moment you appear at the new location or a split second afterwards. But this is important... the magic does not end before you appear. If the magic ended before you appeared at location X, then you'd never appear there.

With Maze, however, you reappear when or after the magic ends. It doesn't matter if the magic ends due to duration running out, lost concentration, or the creature making its save. The magic ends (first), then you reappear in your original spot (second). This insinuates that the magic is keeping you away and if/when the magic ends you come back.

I'd rule that the target of the Maze reappears in the original location even if there was an anti-magic shell there now.

Ah but you see, that's when Antimagic Field's ban on "planar travel" ( much like Mordekainen's Private Sanctum ) comes into effect. The magic of the Maze spell does keep the target in the Demiplane, and under normal circumstances when the spell ends ( But the magic which suffuses the Multiverse does not ), the target reappears through some kind of inherent magical mechanism. We know this because within the Antimagic Field, Planar Travel simply fails to work. Even though it was the magic of the "Maze" spell which kept the target there, once the spell ended, the target would still need to suddenly reappear back in the plane where it originated from on the same spot after having spent a minute wandering around a Maze on a Demiplane. Such a transition cannot be natural, and it's the magic of the multiverse ( Rather than that of the Maze spell ) which completes the final part.

That would at least be the explanation as to why Antimagic Field simply states that "Planar travel fails to work within the sphere, whether the sphere is the destination or the departure point for such magical travel.". The very passage between planes is magical. So "Maze" has faded, but the last part of the spell is unable to revert since "Antimagic Field" blocks the magic which suffuses the Multiverse in that area, thus making it impossible for the automatic planar transition which happens at the end of Maze to occur.

TL;DR For some reason, the continuity of the "Maze" spell is required to keep someone in that particular Demiplane, or else be ejected back to the point of origin on the plane you arrived from. Yet while we don't know how, or why the target "reappears", we know that his physical being which was well and truly on that Demiplane, has made a planar transition in order to return - One which is facilitated not by the Maze spell which ended, but by something else ( Which Antimagic Field blocks, therefore we summarize to be the Multiverse's inherent magical energy itself ). So basically what happens is that the Multiverse, at the end of "Maze", is like a character attempting to "Plane Shift" into an area warded by "Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum". Any planar transition for any reason into that destination can't happen because a planar transition is part of the Multiverse's magic, and the Antimagic Field is divorced from it.

Although, I would actually have to make a point of contention against my own scenario, in certain campaigns, interestingly enough: There is one caveat to "Antimagic Field" which is, while it's powerful enough to nullify the magic which suffuses the Multiverse, it cannot disable those created by deities or artifacts. If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms setting for example, then "the magic which suffuses the Multiverse" and facilitates such automatic processes would actually be The Weave, created by the Goddess Mystra, in which case the planar transition would pierce right through the Antimagic Field, utterly ignoring it, since it is a magical effect powered by The Weave directly. ( But it might not happen in the Dark Sun for instance, or in other settings ) But then again there would also be a philosophical contradiction here, since attempting to cast "Antimagic Field" in the first place would be an attempt to surpass a Magical Effect created by a deity ( The Weave ) and thus not work, unless we were to distinguish between "Magical energy" and "Magical Effect" to solve that.

[Xetheral]

This is likely unresolvable from the rules alone, similar to the question of whether the Refusal spell in 3.5 could bear the weight of creatures above it who failed the save.

[Renduaz]

It would be a DM ruling, so tables will vary. I would say that the target reappears at the closest safe location to the spot they left. Same as if the space was occupied.


Agreed. That makes the most sense.

Come to think of it, the same question could be asked as to what would happen if a single Arcanist ( And this would in fact be incredibly easier and more effective, only requiring a single Arcanist due to no concentration ) were to Maze a target, and then Wish a Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum ( "Planar travel is blocked within the warded area." ) or even more grandiose, Forbiddance, both of which could pretty much cover entire battle maps and further than that?

With that house ruling this would be an amazing trick to basically expel any creature with no saving throw to either a deliberately non-warded area of your choosing or a very far distance away. Actually what would happen if you're fighting someone on a Demiplane and you do that? He has nowhere to go. Maybe he appears in the Astral Sea. Or if you're going through a dungeon or very deep cavern and doing your best to collapse/occupy the space ( with anything ) of everywhere you've passed, then do it in the boss's lair. He could end up being expelled all the way to the beginning for the nearest unoccupied space or even up to the surface from within some extremely deep singular cavern. Amazing.

[Mellack]

Come to think of it, the same question could be asked as to what would happen if a single Arcanist ( And this would in fact be incredibly easier and more effective, only requiring a single Arcanist due to no concentration ) were to Maze a target, and then Wish a Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum ( "Planar travel is blocked within the warded area." ) or even more grandiose, Forbiddance, both of which could pretty much cover entire battle maps and further than that?

With that house ruling this would be an amazing trick to basically expel any creature with no saving throw to either a deliberately non-warded area of your choosing or a very far distance away. Actually what would happen if you're fighting someone on a Demiplane and you do that? He has nowhere to go. Maybe he appears in the Astral Sea. Or if you're going through a dungeon or very deep cavern and doing your best to collapse/occupy the space ( with anything ) of everywhere you've passed, then do it in the boss's lair. He could end up being expelled all the way to the beginning for the nearest unoccupied space or even up to the surface from within some extremely deep singular cavern. Amazing.

I do not think using a wish to force a creature out of an area to be overly powerful. Especialy as a combo requiring an 8th and 9th level spell.

[Renduaz]

I do not think using a wish to force a creature out of an area to be overly powerful. Especialy as a combo requiring an 8th and 9th level spell.

Depending on the situation, it can be, going by that house rule. There are many scenarios in which all you really need is to get rid of a creature in it's area ( Maybe you just need something from the lair, or want to destroy something, or save something, or whatever ). Maybe you have an army waiting at the surface, maybe there are many reasons. With Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, it can't even return to the area with teleportation, and if you're in a closed environment and took care to block the path in your trail, or at least leading up to a lair entrance or whatever, then that legendary creature is also going to have to spend quite a bit of time trying to come back. Which would furthermore also certainly be enough time to **** with it even further by erecting a Wall of Force or Leomund's Tiny Hut around it's hoard or some shrine or whatever.

[Mellack]

Depending on the situation, it can be, going by that house rule. There are many scenarios in which all you really need is to get rid of a creature in it's area ( Maybe you just need something from the lair, or want to destroy something, or save something, or whatever ). Maybe you have an army waiting at the surface, maybe there are many reasons. With Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, it can't even return to the area with teleportation, and if you're in a closed environment and took care to block the path in your trail, or at least leading up to a lair entrance or whatever, then that legendary creature is also going to have to spend quite a bit of time trying to come back. Which would furthermore also certainly be enough time to **** with it even further by erecting a Wall of Force or Leomund's Tiny Hut around it's hoard or some shrine or whatever.

Under certain conditions anything can be great. If you have planned well enough to move your army in secretly, and get in through the lair with your top spells intact, good for you.