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Halabalousa
2017-09-03, 06:55 PM
Some days ago I made a post regarding building a dualwielding Bladesinger and what to dip into (multiclassing). Now I have decided that I will be playing a Bladesinger fighter dipping into fighter for just 1 or 2 levels. First level will be fighter for all the goodies my Bladesinger can get from that and then I might at some point dip for a 2nd level for Action Surge but that wont be for a while. We will start level 2 so my character will be Fighter1/Bladesinger1 at that point getting access to 6 spells to place in my spell book.

I have never played a wizard before but I would assume that the 2 spells I can add to my spellbook each time i level up will be of the highest level I can cast at least for some time (untill I get to a higher level) so I would imagine I will be limited to 8 (6 + 2) level one spells. I might be wrong in this assessment and if so please enlighten me :smallsmile: but these are my thoughts on the 8 level 1 spells:

I must have these ones
-absorb elements <- I need to stay alive!
-detect magic (ritual + concentration) <- a wizard must be able to detect magic
-find familiar (ritual) <- I want a pet and its REALLY useful too! (owl)
-shield <- I need to stay alive!
-tasha's hideous laughter (concentration) <- seems like a great control spell and even if the enemy makes its saving throw when we hit it, it is still prone until its turn.

So thats 5 spells locked in and then only 3 open spaces left for these ones:

These ones I like as well
-alarm (ritual) <- I know the GM is hard on resting (both short and long) so this will probably be pretty useful
-comprehend languages (ritual) <- really handy to have in your repertoire
-featherfall <- can be a life saver!
-fog cloud (concentration) <- great for battlefield control and to disrupt ranged enemies
-grease <- like fog cloud great for battlefield control, no concentration which means it can be used later on while hasted, can you ignite the grease? seems like I should get either fog cloud or grease for the control
-mage armor <- well I dont like this much as I will be wearing a studded leather armor for +2 AC which means the spell is effective +1 AC which I dont find attractive but let me know if you feel different
-magic misile <- auto hit force damage seems nice and it seems to scale well
-sleep <- looks absolutely GREAT at the very low levels and after that pretty terrible because it doesnt scale well so I dont think its actually worth it
-unseen servant <- not bad having a servant and I can see some fun RP stuff coming up with this one fun

Help me out guys :smallcool:

cZak
2017-09-03, 08:02 PM
I've always been of the mind that a melee oriented spell slinger (i.e; Gish) would rely primarily on their martial abilities & utilize spells to augment. MY opinion... not canon.
I think the Eldritch knight & Arcane trickster are pretty good sub classes that provide a nice chassis for this.

You've listed some very good spell selections for this; Shield, Absorb elements, etc...
These are nice, but they are single instance effects. When needed, they are great, but you'll probably have limited resources (spell slots) between rests.
And you have some good tactical selections; Fog cloud for potential cover, Mage armor is good for a Dex focused build.
One I'd suggest would be Expeditious retreat provides some bonus action mobility.


Rituals are icing on the wizard cake.
Get very one you can during your adventuring career. I'm not sure they're worth your two free per level selections, but strongly hint to your DM you're looking to expand your book.

Hootman
2017-09-03, 08:20 PM
I dunno why you think you need help, you really nailed everything. :smallsmile:

1. Yes, you will be starting with 6 spells of 1st level, picking up 2 more after an adventure or two, and then moving on to bigger and better things.
2. You pretty much hit on all of the "must have" spells according to the collective wisdom of the boards.

Absorb Elements and Shield are stupidly good for your entire career. Fog Cloud and Magic Missile are good to have in your toolbox. Grabbing all (or at least most) of the 1st level rituals is a good investment, because you can have them available while literally never preparing them; hooray for wizards!

However, I personally disagree on Tasha's. Assuming your party is working together, the spell is almost certainly going to break before an entire round passes (either by the enemy being hit enough times, passing on their own turn, or just getting killed), making it just a Shove Attack that targets Wisdom instead of Athletics/Acrobatics and consumes a spell slot.

My recommendations would be:
1. Shield
2. Absorb Elements
3. Detect Magic
4. Fog Cloud
5. Find Familiar
6. Magic Missile / Featherfall / Unseen Servant / Sleep
-----
7. Alarm
8. Comprehend Languages

The sixth spell is basically a "Whatever you want" slot, since everything else is well-covered. Will you be needing or wanting the Identify spell? That's almost the only one you don't have that I might recommend.

Also, why studded leather for armor? If you are going to bother taking the level(s) in Fighter, you should make use of those armor proficiencies and use Medium Armor (scale, then either breastplate or halfplate) if you are favoring Dexterity. That way, you'll be strictly better than the Mage Armor spell.

Gignere
2017-09-03, 08:21 PM
Some days ago I made a post regarding building a dualwielding Bladesinger and what to dip into (multiclassing). Now I have decided that I will be playing a Bladesinger fighter dipping into fighter for just 1 or 2 levels. First level will be fighter for all the goodies my Bladesinger can get from that and then I might at some point dip for a 2nd level for Action Surge but that wont be for a while. We will start level 2 so my character will be Fighter1/Bladesinger1 at that point getting access to 6 spells to place in my spell book.

I have never played a wizard before but I would assume that the 2 spells I can add to my spellbook each time i level up will be of the highest level I can cast at least for some time (untill I get to a higher level) so I would imagine I will be limited to 8 (6 + 2) level one spells. I might be wrong in this assessment and if so please enlighten me :smallsmile: but these are my thoughts on the 8 level 1 spells:

I must have these ones
-absorb elements <- I need to stay alive!
-detect magic (ritual + concentration) <- a wizard must be able to detect magic
-find familiar (ritual) <- I want a pet and its REALLY useful too! (owl)
-shield <- I need to stay alive!
-tasha's hideous laughter (concentration) <- seems like a great control spell and even if the enemy makes its saving throw when we hit it, it is still prone until its turn.

So thats 5 spells locked in and then only 3 open spaces left for these ones:

These ones I like as well
-alarm (ritual) <- I know the GM is hard on resting (both short and long) so this will probably be pretty useful
-comprehend languages (ritual) <- really handy to have in your repertoire
-featherfall <- can be a life saver!
-fog cloud (concentration) <- great for battlefield control and to disrupt ranged enemies
-grease <- like fog cloud great for battlefield control, no concentration which means it can be used later on while hasted, can you ignite the grease? seems like I should get either fog cloud or grease for the control
-mage armor <- well I dont like this much as I will be wearing a studded leather armor for +2 AC which means the spell is effective +1 AC which I dont find attractive but let me know if you feel different
-magic misile <- auto hit force damage seems nice and it seems to scale well
-sleep <- looks absolutely GREAT at the very low levels and after that pretty terrible because it doesnt scale well so I dont think its actually worth it
-unseen servant <- not bad having a servant and I can see some fun RP stuff coming up with this one fun

Help me out guys :smallcool:

Note you won't be able to dual wield and cast spells without warcaster feat.

Halabalousa
2017-09-03, 08:23 PM
One I'd suggest would be Expeditious retreat provides some bonus action mobility.

Rituals are icing on the wizard cake.
Get very one you can during your adventuring career. I'm not sure they're worth your two free per level selections, but strongly hint to your DM you're looking to expand your book.

I will be taking the Mobile feat so I shouldnt need Expeditious Retreat.

Yeah, I will definately be looking for ways to expand the spell book thoughout the game but I think the GM will mostly give me fun and lesser used spells that way so I will likely have to get most of the core spells through leveling up.

Halabalousa
2017-09-03, 08:28 PM
Note you won't be able to dual wield and cast spells without warcaster feat.

Well some spells I can, just not the ones requiring somatic component, which I admit is a real downside but I want to make dual wielding work. I will probably just throw a dagger with my offhand attack or shead a weapon when I want to be able to cast somatic spells untill I get Warcaster. I think that will work alright?

Gignere
2017-09-03, 08:32 PM
Well some spells I can, just not the ones requiring somatic component, which I admit is a real downside but I want to make dual wielding work. I will probably just throw a dagger with my offhand attack or shead a weapon when I want to be able to cast somatic spells untill I get Warcaster. I think that will work alright?

Even the ones with materials you won't be able to do. You can only cast spells that is V only. Which is few and far between, I think all your top picks for level 1 spells can't be cast dual wielding. Unless you are going to dual wield daggers and cheese argue that one of them is actually an athame casting focus.

Halabalousa
2017-09-03, 08:37 PM
However, I personally disagree on Tasha's. Assuming your party is working together, the spell is almost certainly going to break before an entire round passes (either by the enemy being hit enough times, passing on their own turn, or just getting killed), making it just a Shove Attack that targets Wisdom instead of Athletics/Acrobatics and consumes a spell slot.

That is actually a really good point! I will reconsider Tasha's then...


My recommendations would be:
1. Shield
2. Absorb Elements
3. Detect Magic
4. Fog Cloud
5. Find Familiar
6. Magic Missile / Featherfall / Unseen Servant / Sleep
-----
7. Alarm
8. Comprehend Languages

The sixth spell is basically a "Whatever you want" slot, since everything else is well-covered. Will you be needing or wanting the Identify spell? That's almost the only one you don't have that I might recommend.

So you think Fog Cloud is strickly better than Greasy? Im kinda worried about it requiring concentration because later I would like to use Haste a lot.

Now what if I use my familiar provide extra eyes on lookout when resting. That way I might be able to drop Alarm. Maybe a little risky though...

Im definately dropping Sleep. I did a bit of extra research on it and it scales really bad.


Also, why studded leather for armor? If you are going to bother taking the level(s) in Fighter, you should make use of those armor proficiencies and use Medium Armor (scale, then either breastplate or halfplate) if you are favoring Dexterity. That way, you'll be strictly better than the Mage Armor spell.

Im going Bladesinger and I cant do bladesong with medium armor. Also I will be rocking 18 dex (we rolled for it) so medium armor doesnt do anything for me.

Halabalousa
2017-09-03, 08:40 PM
Even the ones with materials you won't be able to do. You can only cast spells that is V only. Which is few and far between, I think all your top picks for level 1 spells can't be cast dual wielding. Unless you are going to dual wield daggers and cheese argue that one of them is actually an athame casting focus.

I believe my GM will allow a ring on afinger or a necklace / medalion wrapped around the hand to count as a focus but I will have to check that with him.

djreynolds
2017-09-03, 11:45 PM
Go down to your local merchant shop and purchase scrolls.

Go on adventures to fill out your spell book.... and then you can have every spell.

Pester your DM.

We live in a world where there are 20th level wizards and clerics and druids, there are scrolls and libraries everywhere and cool side quests that can come from this.

Otherwise you will be doing this, asking what spells are this or that and never using all these spells

My advice is pester the DM for spells and force your party to pony up money. Tell the fighter, you buy this scroll for me and when its time I'll help buy your plate armor

Citan
2017-09-04, 10:36 AM
These ones I like as well
-alarm (ritual) <- I know the GM is hard on resting (both short and long) so this will probably be pretty useful
-comprehend languages (ritual) <- really handy to have in your repertoire
-featherfall <- can be a life saver!
-fog cloud (concentration) <- great for battlefield control and to disrupt ranged enemies
-grease <- like fog cloud great for battlefield control, no concentration which means it can be used later on while hasted, can you ignite the grease? seems like I should get either fog cloud or grease for the control
-mage armor <- well I dont like this much as I will be wearing a studded leather armor for +2 AC which means the spell is effective +1 AC which I dont find attractive but let me know if you feel different
-magic misile <- auto hit force damage seems nice and it seems to scale well
-sleep <- looks absolutely GREAT at the very low levels and after that pretty terrible because it doesnt scale well so I dont think its actually worth it
-unseen servant <- not bad having a servant and I can see some fun RP stuff coming up with this one fun

Help me out guys :smallcool:
Hi!

As others, I wouldn't "lock" Tasha's personally. Not that it is a bad spell, rather that there are so many better spells to pick at that level...
You are right for Mage Armor, if you can wear the best light armor already it's not worth it.

Honestly, I'd pick Magic Missile, Sleep and either Comprehend Languages or Unseen Servant.
And I'd take Fog Cloud as a replacement of Tasha's.

Why?
MM & Sleep: those are still VERY useful at your level. At higher levels, just unprepare them (although they still get some niche uses).
Comprehend Languages is a must-have if you intend to "spy" other people (whether really sneaking around, or just listening random discussions in a bar to try and grasp an interesting one). Otherwise, Unseen Servant is a great versatile tool to have.

Fog Cloud: eats concentration, but can be used in and out of combat, either offensively (blind archers cluttered in a small position, blind a caster to force him into the range of your melee pal) or defensively (impose disadvantage on attacks against you) or in non-combat situation (impress villagers, sneak around etc).

Now, I suggest these choices will betting that 1) you will get another Wizard level soon enough and more importantly 2) your DM will provide you regular chances to learn other spells.
IF your DM tends to be avaricious, then get on the safe side and pick Magic Missile (still a great pick), Alarm (since you worry about resting) and Feather Fall (great against traps).

Deathtongue
2017-09-04, 12:05 PM
Your first-level spell picks for Bladesinger will heavily depend on the drop rate of spellbooks and scrolls.

If you don't expect to get anything other than what you get for each level-up, I strongly recommend not bothering with Jeigan spells like Sleep and Colour Spray. Instead, load up on spells that you know you will need later in the game. You won't have much use for Absorb Elements and Detect Magic for the first four or so levels, but they become mandatory staples past then. However, by then you'll have to pick spells for higher-level slots. It HURTS to have to decide between grabbing a Haste or a Comprehend Languages.

You'll also have to keep in mind spell preparation limits. A Feather Fall is very nice to have in your back pocket, but if you already have Fly and Polymorph in your rotation it becomes less necessary for emergencies and you could instead pick something that'd make you more versatile. It's why staves are a very good investment for wizards and next to the Tome of the Stilled Tongue and Robe of the Archmagi the Staff of Power/Magi are probably the best items you can get.

With that in mind, your 'must have' list looks very good. For your 'nice to haves', I'd recommend paring down the list to Comprehend Languages, Mage Armor, Fog Cloud, and one of Grease or Feather Fall. Make room for Protection from Good and Evil if you expect to get past level 6 or so. The monster selection at low level doesn't make that spell a pressing need, but when fiends and undead start rearing their heads you (or especially a party member) will love that spell.

Deathtongue
2017-09-04, 12:07 PM
This also wasn't related to your original question, but I noticed you wanting to grab Mobile.

My advice? You don't need it unless you're doing very long workdays. Misty Step, which you will already want to have prepared at some point, takes care of most of it. I strongly recommend grabbing Resilient: CON or Warcaster instead. When you get hit as a Bladesinger, you're going to feel it. And there are few things worse than dropping concentration on a Blur or a Haste or a Greater Invis while you're dancing around in melee.

Citan
2017-09-04, 01:10 PM
This also wasn't related to your original question, but I noticed you wanting to grab Mobile.

My advice? You don't need it unless you're doing very long workdays. Misty Step, which you will already want to have prepared at some point, takes care of most of it. I strongly recommend grabbing Resilient: CON or Warcaster instead. When you get hit as a Bladesinger, you're going to feel it. And there are few things worse than dropping concentration on a Blur or a Haste or a Greater Invis while you're dancing around in melee.
I... actually dont understand at all why you would advise that to OP.

He already got a probably 16 AC before Bladesong. By the time he gets Haste, he should be around 22 AC under effect.
Even better with Greater Invisibility since most enemies will be at disadvantage, if they can locate him at all.

With that said, a Bladesinger clearly cannot tank, due to concentration and more importantly low hp.
So a Bladesinger usually doesn't want to stay into reach of enemies.

If you take Resilient, you WILL suffer OA when trying do move away from the enemy, with still a low to significant risk to take a hit (at least until Greater Invisibility). And a hit may not only break your concentration but also outright cripple you (because you are still a d6 class, with probably a low CON unless good rolled stats), or force you to use a Shield from one of that few precious slots (in first levels).

If you take Mobile, you can safely try to attack up to 2 enemies and still move back to safe range (especially with Haste+Mobile+Bladesong active, most melee enemies won't even be able to reach you in the first place, or will have to resort to ranged attacks which are usually a much lesser threat).
Sure, Haste does provides a built-in Disengage so if you use Haste you could technically never need Mobile. But it means losing an additional attack or the ability to Hide in the same turn you dashed in (for example behind a natural full cover, or crouching behind a Mold Earth/Minor Illusion fabricated cover), or even using a healer's kit on self with Healer feat (ok, niche case here ;)).

I'm not saying that Resilient/Warcaster is a bad choice. In the contrary, at least one of those feats that should be taken at one point or another for many casters.
For a low level Bladesinger that wants to use his melee ability though, Mobile is much much better because it allows him to completely avoid some attacks in the first place. Also concentration is not that important until you really get good concentration spells and enough slots to really fuel encounters so you can bear with "just" having +INT to saves. ;)

Halabalousa
2017-09-04, 01:20 PM
This also wasn't related to your original question, but I noticed you wanting to grab Mobile.

My advice? You don't need it unless you're doing very long workdays. Misty Step, which you will already want to have prepared at some point, takes care of most of it. I strongly recommend grabbing Resilient: CON or Warcaster instead. When you get hit as a Bladesinger, you're going to feel it. And there are few things worse than dropping concentration on a Blur or a Haste or a Greater Invis while you're dancing around in melee.

I take first level in fighter so I already got proficiency in CON. I will definately be grapping Warcaster but I do want Mobile both for fluff reasons (dancing around the battlefield without oponents being able to strike at me) and I would like to explore the snyergi with Booming Blade.

We rolled for attributes and I will be sporting 18 in both dex and int so I think I can delay +2 ASI in dex and int until after I get the two feats.

Citan
2017-09-04, 01:29 PM
I take first level in fighter so I already got proficiency in CON. I will definately be grapping Warcaster but I do want Mobile both for fluff reasons (dancing around the battlefield without oponents being able to strike at me) and I would like to explore the snyergi with Booming Blade.

We rolled for attributes and I will be sporting 18 in both dex and int so I think I can delay +2 ASI in dex and int until after I get the two feats.
Wow. Sooo. Yeah. Definitely. You can wait. In fact I'd argue you could totally only max one of them and instead rack the feats. ;)

As illustrated above, Healer can pair nicely with Haste, Tough is always a great resilience boost, and Resilient: Wisdom seems kinda mandatory on the list too (what's worse than a Bladesinger getting Haste broken and helpless? A Bladesinger under Haste turning against his friends XD).

Halabalousa
2017-09-04, 03:23 PM
Wow. Sooo. Yeah. Definitely. You can wait. In fact I'd argue you could totally only max one of them and instead rack the feats. ;)

As illustrated above, Healer can pair nicely with Haste, Tough is always a great resilience boost, and Resilient: Wisdom seems kinda mandatory on the list too (what's worse than a Bladesinger getting Haste broken and helpless? A Bladesinger under Haste turning against his friends XD).

Yeah, the last part will be really tough on the party, but I have to admit it would probably also be fun :smallbiggrin:

Deathtongue
2017-09-04, 03:50 PM
I... actually dont understand at all why you would advise that to OP. Let's take a step back: unless you got very good item drops and/or trying to conserve spells, as a Bladesinger, you don't run in, poke the enemy with your blade, then flit away. That's a suboptimal way to play the class unless you have long workdays that are uniformly challenging and you're regularly squeezing out every spell slot and don't have access to magic items. You will be using your bow/Fire Bolt and low-level spells like Levitate and Phantasmal Force and Tasha's and Web. Seriously, at level 8 you can on a good attack sequence with Haste do like 5d8+8 damage a round a Rapier with Booming Blade and Mobile and the Haste Attack if all the stars align. That's certainly not awful, but that's not the best use of your resources. You could've instead hasted the GMW barbarian or thrown out a Fireball or Fly or Hypnotic Pattern. Same with Greater Invis. Yes, it turns you into a melee god for a minute, but reserving that spell slot for a well-timed Polymorph (or, heck, using Greater Invis on the Champion Fighter) is a better use.

There will be times when you need to get the heck out of dodge, but that's what Misty Step is for.

If you want to optimize your Bladesinger for effectiveness, do not play them like a paladin or an eldritch knight. Your sword is a backup. You are a hard-to-hit wizard who can stretch out the party's resources.

Halabalousa
2017-09-04, 03:50 PM
As others, I wouldn't "lock" Tasha's personally. Not that it is a bad spell, rather that there are so many better spells to pick at that level...

Honestly, I'd pick Magic Missile, Sleep and either Comprehend Languages or Unseen Servant.
And I'd take Fog Cloud as a replacement of Tasha's.

Why?
MM & Sleep: those are still VERY useful at your level. At higher levels, just unprepare them (although they still get some niche uses).
Comprehend Languages is a must-have if you intend to "spy" other people (whether really sneaking around, or just listening random discussions in a bar to try and grasp an interesting one). Otherwise, Unseen Servant is a great versatile tool to have.

Fog Cloud: eats concentration, but can be used in and out of combat, either offensively (blind archers cluttered in a small position, blind a caster to force him into the range of your melee pal) or defensively (impose disadvantage on attacks against you) or in non-combat situation (impress villagers, sneak around etc).

Now, I suggest these choices will betting that 1) you will get another Wizard level soon enough and more importantly 2) your DM will provide you regular chances to learn other spells.
IF your DM tends to be avaricious, then get on the safe side and pick Magic Missile (still a great pick), Alarm (since you worry about resting) and Feather Fall (great against traps).

I see that almost everyone doesnt regard Tasha's as high as I initially did. Im trying to pick spells that will stay usefull at higher levels as well as I suspect getting extra spells (outside levelling up) might be quite limited. Thus I figure that Tasha's will still be useful later on like when fighting 2 big baddies and you can occupy one of then with Tasha's while dealing with the other one.

For the same reason Im not into Sleep. GREAT at my current level and a couple of levels up but after that not useful at all unless we fight a hoarde of low HP creatures.

I really do like Fog Cloud but concentration is a bitch :)

Citan
2017-09-04, 05:29 PM
Let's take a step back: unless you got very good item drops and/or trying to conserve spells, as a Bladesinger, you don't run in, poke the enemy with your blade, then flit away. That's a suboptimal way to play the class unless you have long workdays that are uniformly challenging and you're regularly squeezing out every spell slot and don't have access to magic items. You will be using your bow/Fire Bolt and low-level spells like Levitate and Phantasmal Force and Tasha's and Web. Seriously, at level 8 you can on a good attack sequence with Haste do like 5d8+8 damage a round a Rapier with Booming Blade and Mobile and the Haste Attack if all the stars align. That's certainly not awful, but that's not the best use of your resources. You could've instead hasted the GMW barbarian or thrown out a Fireball or Fly or Hypnotic Pattern. Same with Greater Invis. Yes, it turns you into a melee god for a minute, but reserving that spell slot for a well-timed Polymorph (or, heck, using Greater Invis on the Champion Fighter) is a better use.

There will be times when you need to get the heck out of dodge, but that's what Misty Step is for.

If you want to optimize your Bladesinger for effectiveness, do not play them like a paladin or an eldritch knight. Your sword is a backup. You are a hard-to-hit wizard who can stretch out the party's resources.
Let's take a step back: unless you know things about OP that I don't, you are just making projections on what YOU like doing best as a Bladesinger, not what IS best to do as a Bladesinger.

Especially a Bladesinger with a Fighter dip can dish out more damage than a Fighter, while keeping a very competitive AC.

Sure, if there is a raging GWM Barbarian in the party, he will make more of a Haste than the Wizard. But if there is not?
What if Wizard doesn't deem necessary to use a high-level spell? What if he run out of high level spells?
Or what if he decides to aggro things?

Haste is just one of the many spells, either concentration or non-concentration, that a Bladesinger can cast while still dishing out damage.
Your sentence about not using hit&run tactics as a Bladesinger is, sorry to say, utter nonsense. It's exactly the shtick of a Bladesinger, especially once Mobile is in the equation. It's up to anyone to optimize around or just consider it as a safeguard for melee threats.

Since OP wants to optimize around it, Haste is a great spell for him to have. As well as many many other spells that can quickly enough run him out of slots for a good chunk of levels without requiring concentration: Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Blindness, Blink, Grease, Rope Trick, Magic Circle, AOE spells (including Earth Tremor which doubles as proning AOE), single-target spells etc...

Of course a Bladesinger should also have many of the classics any Wizard should prepare, because a well-placed Polymorph, Hold X, Slow or Polymorph (or the other ones you quoted) can be game-changers.
This is totally independant of the fact that for OP (which is especially tailored for that, with starting CON proficiency), getting in the thick of the fight with just his blade, with or without Haste/Blur/Mirror Image/Blink/etc, is a perfectly fine option. Even more once Mobile is in.

As a reminder, with Mobile and Haste on, a Bladesinger has a speed of (10+10+30)*2 so 100 feet, add a prebuff Longstrider and that goes up 120 feet. So 50-60 go&back move.
Usually far enough to rush from back line, strike enemy in melee and fall back. No bigger risk from melee than if he used Firebolt.
Double this if using the Dash action from Haste in situations in which the "normal" speed isn't enough.
Otherwise, you can dish 4 full attacks (thanks to the Fighter dip) for 1mn, so (1d6+4)*4, average 30 (with Dual Wielder would go up to 34. Not really useful here. ;))


You are basically a Monk without Stunning Strike but with much much better AC and speed. ;)
Let's compare with a non-GWM, dual-wielding Fighter: Bladesinger bests him by one attack, so obviously gets better average (Fighter only 3 attacks but has extra feat for Dual Wielder so 25,5). Consequently, without Haste both dish out the same damage without Dual Wielder, Fighter gets some lead with it.
Let's compare with a non-GWM, dual-wielding Barbarian which adds Rage (+2 at level 6): (1d6+4+2)*2+(1d6+2), average 24,5. Bladesinger beats on average and maximum.
Let's compare with a Bladesinger's Firebolt: 2d10, average 11.

So for OP, using Firebolt would be crippling self for 2/3 of the damage he could deal without any buff just using weapon attacks. Using a bow would be cutting off 1 attack, so an average 7,5 damage per turn.

All of that for what? With Mobile in, there is no extra risk involved. And until Mobile kicks in, OP has 12+4+4 = 20 AC which is on par with a S&B Fighter, equal great.
PLUS until he gets Extra Attack (at which point he will have taken Mobile) if really the enemy seems too powerful, he can just use thrown Daggers instead of Shortswords to keep out of OA.

What was that again? "You will be using your bow/Fire Bolt and low-level spells like Levitate and Phantasmal Force and Tasha's and Web."
Errm. Wow. This is really off, so... You know, I'm a bit embarrassed for you. Again, not that you are giving bad idea, just that you are pushing your own personal style on OP while dismissing his own although it's also a very viable and efficient one.
You really should start considering someone's context to tailor your advice to make it worth (like, you know, casting Greater Invisibility on a Champion Fighter: even if there WAS one in OP party, which we don't know, what happens if he actually wanted to draw all the attacks? Because invisible enemy is generally neglected by enemies, too hard to target). :)

By the way, you seem to consider that most adventuring days allow casters to blindlessly throw their spells away, and that all spells will succeed. I'm glad for you if it's the way in your games, but that's really not the standard case.
Usually, you don't know exactly how much and how often of a threat you will face in the day, and wasting a slot on a game-changer debuff also happens. So smart casters usually pay attention in fact to keep their slots as long as possible or at least using them in a way that limits at most chance of failure. In that regard, as much as I like a good Slow, Polymorph or Hold, if you face enemies which you know have a high chance of avoiding it, it is perfectly legitimate to prefer a sure-way buff (Haste, Polymorph) or a dividing spell (Walls) instead of gambling away. ;)

Halabalousa
2017-09-04, 06:16 PM
Okay here is the deal. When I make a character I like to setup some parameters for the character type I think will be fun to play (usually not something close to 100% optimal) and then afterwards try to optimize the build within those parameters. The main parameters here are potent half-elf (half-drow with drow magic) magic user, dual wielder dancing around the battlefield like a ballet danser whirling blades while the enemies cant seem to find an opening to strike back. The backstory is build on those parameters before I even decided on class / classes. Im lucky I rolled well for attribute stats but Im still dumbing +2 in charisma which isnt optimal but this character has to be half-drow so thats the way it is. But I do try to optimize so the character is suited to function as well as I can figure it out within those parameters.

Our party wont be fully optimized either, we dont even have a real healer and most characters are dex based so no GWM barbarian/fighter/paladin. We do have a paladin but he is dex based as well.

PS. I do appreciate all kind of advice/feedback so eventhough you guys might not see it the same way I am happy to get both your inputs!

Citan
2017-09-05, 11:25 AM
Okay here is the deal. When I make a character I like to setup some parameters for the character type I think will be fun to play (usually not something close to 100% optimal) and then afterwards try to optimize the build within those parameters. The main parameters here are potent half-elf (half-drow with drow magic) magic user, dual wielder dancing around the battlefield like a ballet danser whirling blades while the enemies cant seem to find an opening to strike back. The backstory is build on those parameters before I even decided on class / classes. Im lucky I rolled well for attribute stats but Im still dumbing +2 in charisma which isnt optimal but this character has to be half-drow so thats the way it is. But I do try to optimize so the character is suited to function as well as I can figure it out within those parameters.

Our party wont be fully optimized either, we dont even have a real healer and most characters are dex based so no GWM barbarian/fighter/paladin. We do have a paladin but he is dex based as well.

PS. I do appreciate all kind of advice/feedback so eventhough you guys might not see it the same way I am happy to get both your inputs!
Hmmm... If all party is DEX-based, I hope you guys manage to work together, because in that case, you could do oh so many wonderful things based on "party sneak"... ;)
Especially if there is someone having Pass Without Trace (or Enhance Ability at least for medium-armored guys) to add insult to irony to those poor monsters that will try to detect you. ;)
Even just yourself could be enough depending on party size once you get high enough, between Fog Cloud, Darkness, upcast Invisibility and the like... If you have a Trickster Cleric, Druid or Shadow Monk with you (all having Silence and Pass Without Trace), then you're golden.

If you don't have any dedicated healer (so I guess no Cleric, no Bard, maybe you don't count Druid as a healer?) the next best things are having one people with enough CHA getting Inspiring Leader, and any/everyone getting Healer feat (at least one, especially if he is a Thief Rogue). Pairing a growing party/short rest heal with Rope Trick (insta-place to short rest) or Leomund's Tiny Hut (fortress for multiple short-rest) makes it an extremely great ability. Of course it won't help if anyone dies (that's what Gentle Repose ritual is for, you should get it as a priority if nobody has Revivify) but out of combat it will go a very long way, especially since one kit costs 10 times less than a Potion of Healing, while (soon enough) healing 10 times more. XD
(I'm speaking like I'm teaching here, although you probably already know all of this... XD)