Highest consistent, plausible DPR possible

[Renduaz]

Introduction

I'm attempting to find out the highest possible DPR ( Damage per round ) for a character, yet at the same time accounting for realism ( I.E no Ranger and Volley and 100 tiny creatures in the same space hypothetical scenarios ), as well as consistency to a reasonable extent ( I.E, not entirely relying on an Action Surge which is only good for a single turn, or two ). So far, being a notorious Caster Supremacist and with some inspiration from an hidden post I found and then perfected upon, so let me introduce my findings so far. Which by all my calculations far outstrip any other build including the martial classes in damage, albeit somewhat less in consistency ( But still good enough in my opinion ), yet only available at the highest level. But then again, they overshadow most other classes at that level.


Dawn-Bringer

This build, like the next one, relies on the Shapechange spell. Preferably you'll want your class to be Bladesinger 18 ( Albeit this particular method is less reliant on it ) and Fighter 2 ( I've thought about dipping 2/3 levels into other classes, but all their extra damage/abilities suck and are only good for a couple of turns, not worth wasting an Action Surge burst on, when you need it ). Take the Great Weapon Master Feat, optionally Magic Initiate and preferably have in your possession the Simulacrum, Enlarge/Reduce and Haste spells. Your goal is to Shapechange into a Planetar and optionally Enlarge/Reduce and/or Haste from your Simulacrum, or party members, whichever.

Now for the calculations, which we'll do directly in averages to save time, and you can double check later. While in Planetar form without accounting for the optional additions, our average damage per turn is 106 per turn with Great Weapon Master on both strikes., while Enlarged it's an additional average of 4 points of damage for both strikes, going up to 110, and while Hasted ( You could take level 1 War Priest for a bonus action Attack if you wanted, but for a max of 5 times per day, I don't find it worthy to give up Action Surge for ) we are going to take an Attack ( Which we can, in Shapechange ) rather than Multiattack action, therefore attacking only once with our Greatsword, for an extra 55 damage, bringing us to 165 damage and as a bonus action, we will optionally cast Magic Stone for an average of up to 8, bringing us to 173 damage total. And we never used our action surge.

The Lady of Pain

Alright, it's now time to bring out the big guns. We aren't going to do anything differently than the above except Shapechange into a Marilith, and choose Sentinel and Dual Wielder as our Feats. And now for the math which we'll do with all optional additions, since it would be the most entertaining:

A multiattack of seven attacks, with an average damage of 13 for a Longsword and 15 on a Tail ( Which also restrains a target on a DC of 19 ). So a base damage of 93. Add 5 to each of those from Song of Victory for an average of 128. Add 2 from Enlarge to the 6 Longsword attacks, for an extra 12, so 140. Hasted, we make a single, say, Longsword attack. so 20 additional average damage, for 160. And with "Two Weapon Fighting" along with "Dual Wielder", since we've taken the Attack action as our Haste, we can make another attack with another longsword in a different hand as a bonus action, which goes up another 20, for a total sum of 180 damage per turn. And needless to say, we haven't used our Action Surge.

So why is it the "Big Guns"? Because we also happen to have a little trait called "Reactive" in our Marilith form, along with the Sentinel feat. If the creature within our melee range attempts to attack anything else for the rest of the round, it's going to provoke a reaction from us when it does so, and if that creature has legendary actions, worse for it, because we have as many reactions as there are turns in a round, and it's going to get attacked by us every single time ( Preferably with the tail ). If it tries to move, and we hit it, it's speed drops to 0 and then it can't do so, and it will be forced to use teleportation.

Furthermore, if you have access to poisons ( And with Minor Conjuration available for instance or True Polymorph, even an endless supply of Purple Worm poison could be arranged for ), then you could coat every single one of your Marilith Longswords with it ( Injury Poison ) and deal astronomical damage with every hit ( Ancient Red Dragons would not be immune to poison, for instance ). Lastly, with 9 attacks on your turn, the chances for a natural 20 are significantly higher. And of course, nothing can beat the cool factor of a Large ( If Enlarged, then now Huge ) Marilith ripping a powerful monster to shreds with 9 slashes in seconds, probably causing everything else around to drop down their arms and flee in horror.

Conclusion

With Bladesong being viable twice a day from the onset ( And the first build not even requiring it ), lasting for 10 rounds each, and Shapechange ongoing for an hour, this seems like the ultimate high-level shredding machine, even though there are more consistent builds ( Which I'm looking forward to seeing in this thread as well ), but this is a viable strategy for any number of enemies and probably for a good combat run prior to taking a Long Rest ( Shapechange for an hour providing the main damage really ), as opposed to Action Surges or Divine Smite/Superiority Die and so on which can get wasted rather quickly. Although granted, and as I've said, before everyone misses it, that Rogues and Fighter/Paladin/whatever, Sorclock too, have permanent consistency, albeit for much lower damage. While this packs a DPR of 165/180+, or hundreds with insane Marilith poison/reactions for 10 rounds ( And then can be done again within the hour ), and only taking a reduction of 35/less in the absence of Bladesong, or around 100 without the optional additions ( Although finding a means of Hasting yourself should be pretty easy ), but still remains very high for the next hour if Shapechange is up.

The only "downside" is the possibility of breaking concentration, or getting dispelled on Shapechange. The first part is nigh on impossible with your combined AC from Bladesong, or even without, along with AC as Planetar or Marilith with "Parry" + Spell Mastered Shield for both when needed, along with other methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533093-The-Defensive-Wizard-Strategy-Build&p=22283122) you could take ( If you're lazy, "Blink" especially ), while the latter is a risk as with all magic, but if you're facing enemies which you're worried about, then first ( As the link's build describes ) Shapechange into an Ancient White Dragon, then when lower HP, Ancient Brass, then going the entire Adult Dragon roster, until enough Dispels have been attempted on you ( Which you used infinite Legendary Resistances to succeed ) that you feel safe to change into the Marilith and Planetar and begin your carnage, and since you're basically barely using any spells, you have tons of Counterspells at your disposal ( If saving your reactions for that ). And then possibly a Contingency for like, Dimension Door, in the circumstance that someone might be attempting to cast it on you and you're out of reactions. But reaching this stage has a very, very low chance in 99% of campaigns. So with that, does anyone have builds and techniques to offer for the highest somewhat consistent, plausible DPR you can come up with?

By the way, did I mention what were to happen if your Simulacrum, instead of Hasting you, were to Shapechange itself into an identical form, it's halved hit points irrelevant when it gains the creature's HP, it's inability to regain spells which is meant to cap it - irrelevant, as it relies on your class abilities and feats with melee attacks, and acting on your turn in combat? Whatever stands in your way for the next hour is having a really bad time. If both of you were to expend your Action Surges, Tiamat would be killed instantly on your turn.

[djreynolds]

Sorcerer warlock

Quicken eldritch blast and then twin firebolt

Pretty consistent with pact magic and their short rest recharge

Also a battlemaster with sharp shooter, with 2 levels of rogue for cunning action to hide as bonus action after bow shots and maybe war cleric for divine favor could be pretty consistent. Sharp shooter, precision and advantage

[Degwerks]

Sorcerer warlock

Quicken eldritch blast and then twin firebolt

Pretty consistent with pact magic and their short rest recharge

Also a battlemaster with sharp shooter, with 2 levels of rogue for cunning action to hide as bonus action after bow shots and maybe war cleric for divine favor could be pretty consistent. Sharp shooter, precision and advantage

I 2nd the Sorcerer Warlock idea. Stone Sorcerer would add up to +8 damage to each spell cast

[EvilAnagram]

Rogue with Oathbow.

[TheUser]

Rogue with Oathbow.

Ranger 5/ Rogue X with Sentinel and Mage Slayer

2 sneak attacks per round (1 on their turn 1 on the enemy's if they do anything but attack you)

Ranger grants +1d8 damage / turn against wounded opponents with hunter level 3 feature (2d8/round)

Hunter's mark provides another 1d6 per attack with hunter's mark (3d6/round if you attack twice and sentinel once, 4d6 if you dual wield)

Rogue grants 2d6/round at level 1 and another 2d6/round every 2 levels thereafter.

@ level 20 I believe it's 5d8 + 20d6 + 20 (2 rapier attacks + dual wield shortsword on your turn and a rapier opportunity attack adding 2*sneak attack, 2*wounded prey + 4*hunter's mark).

Unlike the quickened eldritch blast it's 100% free and requires only a level 1 spell across an entire encounter to maintain 4d6 of the damage. And unlike the Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master builds it doesn't require you taking -5 to hit in order to do lots of damage.

All in all it's 112.5 average DPR

[PhantomSoul]

A character shapechanged into a Marilith would not be able to use any feats nor class capacities: "the target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the new form".

That line isn't in Shapechange (the level 9 spell): "Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature, If the creature has the same proficiency as you, and the bonus listed in its Statistics is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus in place of yours. [...] You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so." (PHB 274-275)

[CaptainSarathai]

Sigh.
These come up all the time. So here we go - let's benchmark:

No spells, no resources, just consistent, at-will, damage benchmark?

Fighter, str20
Polearm Master, Greatweapon Master
4d10+1d4+50+25 = 99.5 DPR.
From there, they've got Short Rest Action Surges and Maneuvers to burn.
They can also stuff in 2 levels of Paladin if they want, and get Smite. 3 levels for Hunter's Mark.
or 2 levels of Warlock, or 3 of Ranger, and get Hex/Hunter's Mark.
All of this burns resources, though.

And really, the game seem more balanced around not having that, and just using a GW. So really, more like 8d6+20 = 48 damage.
A Warlock with Agonizing Eldritch Blast can dish forward 4d10+20 = 42 damage
Rogues with Sneak Attack and an offhand shortsword get 12d6+5 = 47 damage
Essentially, if you can deal 50 damage per turn without resource expenditure, you're doing good. If you want to hit 100, the Fighter has you covered. If you cant get above 100 without spending anything, then you're not doing anything too special.

I've personally played classes that can put out above 100 damage, and in fact, closer to 200 damage in actual situations through stringing their attacks together. They could do this a few times a day. I've also built stuff that more or less 1-shots anything smaller than a Terrasque, but only once per day. Once you start burning up resources, it's not that hard. Without expenditure: fighter. Hands down.

[Unoriginal]

That line isn't in Shapechange (the level 9 spell): "Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature, If the creature has the same proficiency as you, and the bonus listed in its Statistics is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus in place of yours. [...] You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so." (PHB 274-275)

My bad.


Sigh.
These come up all the time. So here we go - let's benchmark:

No spells, no resources, just consistent, at-will, damage benchmark?

Fighter, str20
Polearm Master, Greatweapon Master
4d10+1d4+50+25 = 99.5 DPR.
From there, they've got Short Rest Action Surges and Maneuvers to burn.
They can also stuff in 2 levels of Paladin if they want, and get Smite. 3 levels for Hunter's Mark.
or 2 levels of Warlock, or 3 of Ranger, and get Hex/Hunter's Mark.
All of this burns resources, though.

And really, the game seem more balanced around not having that, and just using a GW. So really, more like 8d6+20 = 48 damage.
A Warlock with Agonizing Eldritch Blast can dish forward 4d10+20 = 42 damage
Rogues with Sneak Attack and an offhand shortsword get 12d6+5 = 47 damage
Essentially, if you can deal 50 damage per turn without resource expenditure, you're doing good. If you want to hit 100, the Fighter has you covered. If you cant get above 100 without spending anything, then you're not doing anything too special.

I've personally played classes that can put out above 100 damage, and in fact, closer to 200 damage in actual situations through stringing their attacks together. They could do this a few times a day. I've also built stuff that more or less 1-shots anything smaller than a Terrasque, but only once per day. Once you start burning up resources, it's not that hard. Without expenditure: fighter. Hands down.

Interesting

[Aaron Underhand]

Ranger 5/ Rogue X with Sentinel and Mage Slayer

2 sneak attacks per round (1 on their turn 1 on the enemy's if they do anything but attack you)

Ranger grants +1d8 damage / turn against wounded opponents with hunter level 3 feature (2d8/round)

Hunter's mark provides another 1d6 per attack with hunter's mark (3d6/round if you attack twice and sentinel once, 4d6 if you dual wield)

Rogue grants 2d6/round at level 1 and another 2d6/round every 2 levels thereafter.

@ level 20 I believe it's 5d8 + 20d6 + 20 (2 rapier attacks + dual wield shortsword on your turn and a rapier opportunity attack adding 2*sneak attack, 2*wounded prey + 4*hunter's mark).

Unlike the quickened eldritch blast it's 100% free and requires only a level 1 spell across an entire encounter to maintain 4d6 of the damage. And unlike the Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master builds it doesn't require you taking -5 to hit in order to do lots of damage.

All in all it's 112.5 average DPR

Using just the PHB

Warlock 2/Dragon Sorcerer 18

Hex plus Eldritch blast 4* (d10+5 +3.5) => 56
Quickened (using sorcery spells slots for sorcery points if required means EB +EB 112 with no need for the enemy to trigger an off turn attack.

Of course with Warcaster if they do trigger Opportunity attacks firebolt => 4*d10 +5 +3.5 with the Hex for 30.5 extra

Total of 142.5

I cannot believe that you don't have enough sorcery points from a complete set of spell levels and Warlock short rest spells to sustain this all day...

[Contrast]

I cannot believe that you don't have enough sorcery points from a complete set of spell levels and Warlock short rest spells to sustain this all day...

If you burn every single spell slot you'd get 78 sorcery points, plus 18 from sorc levels to a total of 96.

You're burning three every turn so that's 32 rounds before you run out. You only get back 2 sorcery points on a short rest so you're basically done at that point.

Likely enough for most adventuring days but admittedly less than I was expecting.

[Aaron Underhand]

If you burn every single spell slot you'd get 78 sorcery points, plus 18 from sorc levels to a total of 96.

You're burning three every turn so that's 32 rounds before you run out. You only get back 2 sorcery points on a short rest so you're basically done at that point.

Likely enough for most adventuring days but admittedly less than I was expecting.

Actually only two a round - I'm using EB and quickened EB, not Quickened EB plus twinned Firebolt

Twinned firebolt requires two targets, so I discounted it - it does only a 1.5 points more than EB, and the damage is split and uses a sorcery point - not worth it

Edited to add - 1 firebolt + hex, + firebolt = 57.5 cf EB at 56

[RSP]

Also, if using Hexblade, Warlock at 14 is at will +Prof per hit (and crits on 19-20). This significantly ups the at will damage if EB+AB+Hex.

[Lombra]

Hex and lots of quickened agonizing eldritch blasts. Hex occupies one bonus action/day so you can easily forgo it in the action economy: 8d10+40+8d6 for 2 sorcery points/round, 112 safe, SAD DPR (not taking into account eventual rod pf the pact keeper) at a +11 to hit from level 17.

I think that this as far as reliability goes is unbeatable. Multiply it by 3/5 to visualize the "expected damage" for hits and misses (67.2).

[Malifice]

Introduction

I'm attempting to find out the highest possible DPR ( Damage per round ) for a character, yet at the same time accounting for realism ( I.E no Ranger and Volley and 100 tiny creatures in the same space hypothetical scenarios ), as well as consistency to a reasonable extent ( I.E, not entirely relying on an Action Surge which is only good for a single turn, or two ).

If looking at 'consistent damage that is non resource dependent', you should start with the idea that it can do its thing through 6-8 medium/hard encounters between long rests (and around 2-3 short rests in there as well).

It should also be viable from levels 1-20.


This build, like the next one, relies on the Shapechange spell. Preferably you'll want your class to be Bladesinger 18 ( Albeit this particular method is less reliant on it ) and Fighter 2 ( I've thought about dipping 2/3 levels into other classes, but all their extra damage/abilities suck and are only good for a couple of turns, not worth wasting an Action Surge burst on, when you need it ). Take the Great Weapon Master Feat, and preferably have in your possession the Simulacrum, Enlarge/Reduce and Haste spells. Your goal is to Shapechange into a Planetar and optionally Enlarge/Reduce and/or Haste from your Simulacrum, or party members, whichever.

Now for the calculations, which we'll do directly in averages to save time, and you can double check later. While in Planetar form without accounting for the optional additions, our average damage per turn is 106 per turn with Great Weapon Master on both strikes., while Enlarged it's an additional average of 4 points of damage for both strikes, going up to 110, and while Hasted ( You could take level 1 War Priest for a bonus action Attack if you wanted, but for a max of 5 times per day, I don't find it worthy to give up Action Surge for ) we are going to take an Attack ( Which we can, in Shapechange ) rather than Multiattack action, therefore attacking only once with our Greatsword, for an extra 55 damage, bringing us to 165 damage. Due to the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, whenever we take an "Attack" Action, we do so twice, so bring that up to 220 damage per turn, in total. And we never used our action surge. Bonus Action still reserved for anything else.


Comes online at 20th level
Requires a feat (GWM) that is otherwise useless on a feat/ ASI starved build (bladesingers want Dex and Int boosted ASAP)
requires a specific magic item
Uses resourses (including a 9th and 7th level spell, multiple concentration effects, a DMNPC in your simulacrum, GP for the simulacrum, etc)
Not rules legal (unsure how youre combining extra attack with the Planetars multiattack. Cant do it)


In short; its a totally useless corner case theory build that has no in game use at all.

Seriously. Bladelock 5 (thirsting blade, eldritch smite), Sorcerer 15 (slots) spamming eldritch smites probably does equal damage, is online from 5th level, can do it all day long (has its sorcerer slots and its short rest warlock slots) and we havent even looked into specific magic items, feats, spells or other shennanigans running.



Alright, it's now time to bring out the big guns. We aren't going to do anything differently than the above except Shapechange into a Marilith, and choose Sentinel and Dual Wielder as our Feats. And now for the math which we'll do with all optional additions, since it would be the most entertaining:

Again. Not online till 20th level, requires expenditure of your high level slots (and multiple sources of concentration), and several feats (that are otherwise useless to a 20th level caster).

Its practically useless.

[Renduaz]

If looking at 'consistent damage that is non resource dependent', you should start with the idea that it can do its thing through 6-8 medium/hard encounters between long rests (and around 2-3 short rests in there as well).

It should also be viable from levels 1-20.




Comes online at 20th level
Requires a feat (GWM) that is otherwise useless on a feat/ ASI starved build (bladesingers want Dex and Int boosted ASAP)
requires a specific magic item
Uses resourses (including a 9th and 7th level spell, multiple concentration effects, a DMNPC in your simulacrum, GP for the simulacrum, etc)
Not rules legal (unsure how youre combining extra attack with the Planetars multiattack. Cant do it)


In short; its a totally useless corner case theory build that has no in game use at all.

Seriously. Bladelock 5 (thirsting blade, eldritch smite), Sorcerer 15 (slots) spamming eldritch smites probably does equal damage, is online from 5th level, can do it all day long (has its sorcerer slots and its short rest warlock slots) and we havent even looked into specific magic items, feats, spells or other shennanigans running.




Again. Not online till 20th level, requires expenditure of your high level slots (and multiple sources of concentration), and several feats (that are otherwise useless to a 20th level caster).

Its practically useless.

I never said completely resource independent, there is a spectrum of consistency here. I'd consider abilities like Action Surge which only apply for one turn or having like 4 Divine Smites and 5 Superiority Die or similar ( Which still deal much, much lower damage ) that get wasted quickly in a couple of turns if your goal is max damage, or stuff like "Assassinate" which once again is usually good for the first turn if at all, to be on the lower end. I'd place my build in the middle ( It would actually mathematically rank like a hundred times higher in consistency ) with Bladesong ongoing for 10 rounds and delivering the same 35 damage boost for the Marilith in every turn, and then being available for another 10 rounds at the time of choosing, ( But the Planetar doesn't even need it ), while Shapechange goes on for an entire hour, delivering it's DPR throughout without waning. And on the higher end, as I've written, you'll have the builds like the Sorclock and Martial MC's which can deliver their damage consistently. But yes, it's an endgame build and I wasted a feat and some high-level spells, but in exchange for 165+ damage per turn for up to an hour, which would slaughter any creature in the books in merely a few turns. And bonus for having high Planetar/Marilith health and AC/ Shield/ Parry abilities.

As for the rest of the list, you should've been paying attention. Which "item" does it require? Are you talking about the optional Purple Worm Poison which I haven't even accounted for? And as for the rules, you have not been paying attention. Like, I'm not even sure how you could skip something I've written so blatantly - You're not combining Extra Attack with Multiattack. You're combining it with your Haste "Attack" action.

As for the Simulacrum, if you can't very easily acquire 1500gp at level 20 as a Caster, then I don't know what you're doing wrong, but regardless, obtaining these or at least just Haste shouldn't be a problem at that level even without the extremely easily acquired Simulacrum.

>Bladelock 5 (thirsting blade, eldritch smite), Sorcerer 15 (slots) spamming eldritch smites

You'll notice that I'm not including UA options. I'm sure there is an abundance of extremely broken UA combos, even though I've yet to verify your 165+ damage per turn, but nevermind that.

>Its practically useless.

Charming. Name me the feat or 9th and 7th ( And if you're not an idiot, you can always Wish your Simulacrum before every Long Rest and waking up for adventuring ) level spells, or 1500 gp worth, which are more useful than being able to kill Demogorgon by yourself with an Action Surge in a single or two turns ( No, it can't bring down your Marilith/Planetar health enough in the meantime, not to mention your AC and Blink ), being able to insta-kill most 15+ CR creatures and any non-legendary creature in 2 turns, and having that ability for the whole hour.

Name me the feat or the 9th level spell expenditures which will serve me better for the adventuring day, please. I'm waiting.

[MaxWilson]

Hex and lots of quickened agonizing eldritch blasts. Hex occupies one bonus action/day so you can easily forgo it in the action economy: 8d10+40+8d6 for 2 sorcery points/round, 112 safe, SAD DPR (not taking into account eventual rod pf the pact keeper) at a +11 to hit from level 17.

It occupies quite a bit more than one bonus action per day--it occupies one bonus action per opponent. On the round where you switch Hex to a new opponent, your damage drops to 56.

A High Elf or Magic Initiate Swashbuckler exploiting Booming Blade will do 76 points of damage every round (if the enemy moves), possibly with advantage from Cunning Action (Hide). Against AC 20+, whenever you have advantage, it's competitive with Hexed Eldritch Blast even if you assume the target is already hexed. (Having an 84% hit chance and more critical hits but less damage balances out having more damage but only 60% chance to hit: they both wind up doing about 71 points of damage per round vs. AC 20.)

[Dudewithknives]

Can't go wrong with a simple Fighter 20 arcane archer, with Sharpshooter and crossbow master.

1D6 + Dex (5) + 10, + 1 (magic arrow) = 19.5 damage per shot x5 (4 normal shots, 1 bonus) = 97.5 Damage and that is with no resources or magic items at all, and comes on line at level 1 and is gold at level 4.

Adding in magic items.

Bow + 3
Would make it 112.5

Sadly no bracer of archery bonus.

[Malifice]

I never said completely resource independent, there is a spectrum of consistency here. I'd consider abilities like Action Surge which only apply for one turn or having like 4 Divine Smites and 5 Superiority Die or similar ( Which still deal much, much lower damage ) that get wasted quickly in a couple of turns if your goal is max damage, or stuff like "Assassinate" which once again is usually good for the first turn if at all, to be on the lower end. I'd place my build in the middle

You're doing it wrong. Youre weighting short rest resources the same as long rest resources.

If you're going to factor in resources (and you should because 5E is - at its core - a resource management game) then do it properly.

A standard 5E 'adventuring day' (the framework for resource expenditure) is 6-8 medium-hard encounters between long rests, punctuated by 2-3 short rests.


You're not combining Extra Attack with Multiattack. You're combining it with your Haste "Attack" action.

You cant combine extra attack with the extra attack action from Haste either.


As for the Simulacrum, if you can't very easily acquire 1500gp at level 20 as a Caster, then I don't know what you're doing wrong, but regardless, obtaining these or at least just Haste shouldn't be a problem at that level even without the extremely easily acquired Simulacrum.

Again - who cares what a 20th level PC can do with simulactrum etc.

Its neither 'consistent' (you havent been doing it for the first 2-3 years of the campaign from 1st to 19th level) nor is it 'plausable'.

Its extreme theory crafting that has no relevance to 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of games actually played.


You'll notice that I'm not including UA options. I'm sure there is an abundance of extremely broken UA combos, even though I've yet to verify your 200+ damage per turn, but nevermind that.


Paladin 12/ Fighter 3/ Sorcerer 5 then. Packing a greatsword, hasted, quickening GFB, spamming smites. GWM feat. Devotion +CHA to hit cancels out GWMS -5 to hit.

Same thing. And its also functional and smacking things to death from 1st level onwards. Over the 20 levels from 1st to 20th (and 2-3 years of actual play) it works.


Charming. Name me the feat or 9th and 7th ( And if you're not an idiot, you can always Wish your Simulacrum before every Long Rest and waking up for adventuring ) level spells, or 1500 gp worth, which are more useful than being able to kill Demogorgon by yourself with an Action Surge in a single or two turns ( No, it can't bring down your Marilith/Planetar health enough in the meantime, not to mention your AC and Blink ), being able to insta-kill most 15+ CR creatures and any non-legendary creature in 2 turns, and having that ability for the whole hour.


What im saying is your entire build relies on wishes, simulacrums, and shapechanges and feats that are useless to a Bladesinger (who has a hard enough time getting both Dex and Int to 20 with limited ASI).

You want consistent and plausible DPR.

Your build is neither.

[MaxWilson]

Can't go wrong with a simple Fighter 20 arcane archer, with Sharpshooter and crossbow master.

1D6 + Dex (5) + 10, + 1 (magic arrow) = 19.5 damage per shot x5 (4 normal shots, 1 bonus) = 97.5 Damage and that is with no resources or magic items at all, and comes on line at level 1 and is gold at level 4.

Adding in magic items.

Bow + 3
Would make it 112.5

If you happen to find a Hand Crossbow +3, it still won't stack with the Magic Weapon spell, so at best you're looking at d6+18 for total potential damage 107.5.

But that overstates the case because you're taking a massive -5 to-hit penalty. That +10 damage bonus doesn't come for free, you know. Against AC 20 you're hitting on a 10 or better and doing "only" 60 damage per round (45 DPR if you don't have a Hand Crossbow +3 and are just using Magic Weapon II). That's still quite good, and it's much safer than someone like the Swashbuckling Stabber above is, but in exchange for that extra safety you're doing only 2/3 as much damage as he is, or 6/7 as much if you find a +3 Hand Crossbow.

Also, your DPR hits its peak only at level 20, but the sorlock will hit his peak DPR at level 17, which takes only half as much XP.

(DPR isn't everything, and it isn't really a good thing to optimize for, but it is what the OP asked for so that's what this thread is about...)

[Dudewithknives]

If you happen to find a Hand Crossbow +3, it still won't stack with the Magic Weapon spell, so at best you're looking at d6+18 for total potential damage 107.5.

But that overstates the case because you're taking a massive -5 to-hit penalty. That +10 damage bonus doesn't come for free, you know. Against AC 20 you're hitting on a 10 or better and doing "only" 60 damage per round (45 DPR if you don't have a Hand Crossbow +3 and are just using Magic Weapon II). That's still quite good, and it's much safer than someone like the Swashbuckling Stabber above is, but in exchange for that extra safety you're doing only 2/3 as much damage as he is, or 6/7 as much if you find a +3 Hand Crossbow.

Also, your DPR hits its peak only at level 20, but the sorlock will hit his peak DPR at level 17, which takes only half as much XP.

(DPR isn't everything, and it isn't really a good thing to optimize for, but it is what the OP asked for so that's what this thread is about...)

I was not talking about the magic weapon spell, I was talking about the arcane archer subclass for fighter ability that all their arrows are considered +1 arrows, which JC has already confirmed does stack with magic ranged weapons.

With Archery fighting style +3 weapon, + 1 arrow and 20 dex, at level 20 the fighter's to hit will be, 17.
-5 for sharpshooter would still leave a 12, which is very acceptable.
It also comes with the ability to shoot anywhere within 120 ft, and ignores cover.
While using absolutely no resources, well except the ammo for the weapon anyway.

Also only takes 2 of the fighter's 7 feats, assuming they are not variant human.

[Renduaz]

You're doing it wrong. Youre weighting short rest resources the same as long rest resources.

If you're going to factor in resources (and you should because 5E is - at its core - a resource management game) then do it properly.


I am, and this is in the middle of resources. Not gone in a few turns, not permanent.


A standard 5E 'adventuring day' (the framework for resource expenditure) is 6-8 medium-hard encounters between long rests, punctuated by 2-3 short rests.

In your campaign, I'm sure Not even the official adventure models at the highest levels are actually 6-8 combat encounters a day, really. You do know what "Encounter" means, including in travel, right? . It can be like that, or it can be 3 hard encounters before the party props up a Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion and takes a long rest, it can be anything. Not to mention the differences when it comes to Variant time rules in the DMG which each DM can adapt as he pleases.

But even in your ( underline that part ) campaign, if I'm a level 20 Caster, I'm going to take my build. Because if I'm crawling in some enemy infested dungeon, city, or plane, the highest likelihood in that level is that I'm going to have about 4 or more of those encounters within the hour, as all forces are being thrown my way, especially when I'm killing everything in an instant and using 20th level abilities to travel or breach areas with extreme speed. But no, no - let me guess, these encounters of yours are all miraculously spaced for every 40 minutes or so, while there are furthermore miraculously no setbacks to resting 2-3 hours in intervals in between, but doing so for 8 hours once will once again, in an extraordinary coincidence, and at all times, be the end of the world.

Excuse me, but no. I'm sure it would be utterly useless if I were playing in a campaign of yours designed specifically to argue with me, but I've found my build most useful in every other campaign I've played so far, thank you very much.


Again - who cares what a 20th level PC can do with simulactrum etc.

Its neither 'consistent' (you havent been doing it for the first 2-3 years of the campaign from 1st to 19th level) nor is it 'plausable'.

Its extreme theory crafting that has no relevance to 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of games actually played.

Great. Valid concern, at last. Hence why I mentioned myself that it's only available at 20 as a drawback, yet There are hundreds of level 20, even more "specific" builds for highest DPR floating in the web, and mine has the highest damage per turn lasting the longest to date, so I thought it's notable to post. And by "consistent", I meant good for more than a few turns at least, while "plausible" meaning in-game possible, not real-life plausible AKA "We'll never play that far anyway" ( Although some campaigns can start at 20 for epic content ). A Ranger Volley against 100 tiny creatures packed within 10 square feet or whatever is an example of an implausible game scenario. Whereas this build is 100% possible since you freely have all the means of utilizing it and it's going to deal it's 165+ DPR regardless of almost all conditions. Doesn't need the target to move, doesn't need to be surrounded, you just hit it and the damage is dealt. Much like the Sorclock, this is "plausibility".




Paladin 12/ Fighter 3/ Sorcerer 5 then. Packing a greatsword, hasted, quickening GFB, spamming smites.

Same thing.

Even with your highest slot for Divine Smite, it's 6 average greatsword, +5 for your ability modifier, 11, +22 for the Smite, 33 , + ( at level 20 ) 12 to the target, so 45, and average of 12 to another target on the off chance that it's within 5 feet, which we'll add up just for you, to 57, and I'm not sure what you're using Fighter for ( Yet even with any Maneuver that you can do 4 times , you're still falling short ), and with extra attack it's 90. but you're still nowhere near my damage per turn nor my DPR, your smites which decrease incrementally are only good for 10 turns, and your quickened GFB barely adds any damage.

"Same thing". Funny guy. And of course, this is only likewise available to you at the highest level. And meanwhile that Frakenstein build IS in fact almost useless, unlike the "horror" of my wasted feat, while mine is a 18 Bladesinger with all the benefits that come with it and 2 Fighter for Action Surge, And that's just for the Marilith. With the Planetar Build, I can beAny Wizard, and any 2 level class dip I want, or none at all and still do the same damage.




What im saying is your entire build relies on wishes, simulacrums, and shapechanges and feats that are useless to a Bladesinger (who has a hard enough time getting both Dex and Int to 20 with limited ASI).

You want consistent and plausible DPR.

Your build is neither.

Wishes are really only for whoever sucks so much he can't get 1500gp at level 20 like candy, and besides, your Simulacrum can himself Wish for 25,000gp or for another Simulacrum. And yes, it relies on Shapechange with "Feats that are useless to a Bladesinger". Not sure why Sentinel and Dual Wielder just became useless, but sure. You'd do anything to scream the word "useless", wouldn't you?

[excommunicated]

consistent, plausible



In posting a challenge such as this it pays to tie down variable definitions such as 'consistent' and 'plausable' with almost mathmatical or computer code precision in the original post. Otherwise the second half of the thread tends to degenerate into an argument on the definition of the terms of the contest rather than people trying to meet the challenge in a meaningful way.

[Renduaz]

In posting a challenge such as this it pays to tie down variable definitions such as 'consistent' and 'plausable' with almost mathmatical or computer code precision in the original post. Otherwise the second half of the thread tends to degenerate into an argument on the definition of the terms of the contest rather than people trying to meet the challenge in a meaningful way.

I don't have much character length in the title, yet in the "Introduction" I've clarified that it should be "reasonably" consistent. I.E not one-shots which do a billion damage and are then gone completely for the rest of combat. It should be something that you'd pick in a character choice since you believe it would be of decent aid to you in combat. "Plausible" goes by it's definition in the English language. A volley against 100 tiny creatures packed in 10 feet would probably reach a consensus of being "Implausible" by everyone. If you want math, albeit it's impossible to predict based on DM/Campaign variance, you should posit something that is sufficiently non-circumstancial to be useful for 50% or more of imaginable combat scenarios. A build which simply does damage on hit without any other situational/environmental requirements on part of the enemies or surprise and so on is like 95%+ plausible, if you want to put it that way.

[MaxWilson]

I was not talking about the magic weapon spell, I was talking about the arcane archer subclass for fighter ability that all their arrows are considered +1 arrows, which JC has already confirmed does stack with magic ranged weapons.

With Archery fighting style +3 weapon, + 1 arrow and 20 dex, at level 20 the fighter's to hit will be, 17.
-5 for sharpshooter would still leave a 12, which is very acceptable.
It also comes with the ability to shoot anywhere within 120 ft, and ignores cover.
While using absolutely no resources, well except the ammo for the weapon anyway.

Also only takes 2 of the fighter's 7 feats, assuming they are not variant human.

Correct me if I'm wrong--I don't follow UA much--but if you're referring to this (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-RevisedSubclasses.pdf) arcane archer, doesn't that preclude using a hand crossbow? Arrows aren't crossbow bolts, and furthermore the ability is explicit: "Whenever you fire a nonmagical arrow from a shortbow or longbow, you can make it a magic arrow, with a +1 bonus to the attack and damage rolls." Therefore, you get only four attacks per round, not five. You might as well not even bother with Crossbow Expert.

Your overall DPR will be excellent but still significantly worse than the Sorlock's or the Booming Blade Swashbuckler's.

Note also BTW that Sharpshooter does not allow you to ignore cover. It allows you to ignore half or three-quarters cover, leaving the best kind of cover (total) unaffected. Depending on your game style this may or may not matter, but if your DM is a wargamer type who believes in defilade and/or is trying to provide a niche for melee fighters, it probably will matter. Basically Sharpshooter just allows you to easily shoot at anyone who is trying to shoot at you. If they are trying to shoot your buddies in a different position they can (potentially) keep total cover against you while they do so.

[JBPuffin]

Blah.

Here's the thing - your suggested builds don't match your stated goals. You say you're trying to find the highest, most consistent damage, but your use of 9th-level spell slots and feats mean you aren't finding consistent damage, just lots of it. They're cool builds (I trust your rules-fu), and you admit they aren't the most consistent, but they're pretty paltry examples of a ground floor for your thread.

You want consistency? Fighter, as a class, is the most consistent, hands down. Even at level 1, you can get +7/8 to hit for 1d10+3/4 (accounting for Dex of either 16 or 18, using heavy crossbow b/c CM) OR +5/6 to hit for 2d6+3/4, reroll 1s and 2s the first time they're rolled (GWF Style, greatsword, once again 16/18 strength) OR +5/6 to hit twice for 1d6+3/4 damage apiece (TWF, greater max at first but more swingy), and that's using nothing but equipment, one maxed stat at start, and your fighting style choice. That's minimal investment - heck, it's practical, almost common sense levels of optimization! You add in feats, maybe magic items, maybe EK buffs or BM maneuvers, and you can do more, but frankly just the fighter chassis on its own is the single-best source of consistent damage you can find. Exact builds can get more ridiculous (something something Fighter's not just a dip class for once), but at the most basic level, fighter wins this competition.

[Renduaz]

Here's the thing - your suggested builds don't match your stated goals. You say you're trying to find the highest, most consistent damage, but your use of 9th-level spell slots and feats mean you aren't finding consistent damage, just lots of it. They're cool builds (I trust your rules-fu), and you admit they aren't the most consistent, but they're pretty paltry examples of a ground floor for your thread.

You want consistency? Fighter, as a class, is the most consistent, hands down. Even at level 1, you can get +7/8 to hit for 1d10+3/4 (accounting for Dex of either 16 or 18, using heavy crossbow b/c CM) OR +5/6 to hit for 2d6+3/4, reroll 1s and 2s the first time they're rolled (GWF Style, greatsword, once again 16/18 strength) OR +5/6 to hit twice for 1d6+3/4 damage apiece (TWF, greater max at first but more swingy), and that's using nothing but equipment, one maxed stat at start, and your fighting style choice. That's minimal investment - heck, it's practical, almost common sense levels of optimization! You add in feats, maybe magic items, maybe EK buffs or BM maneuvers, and you can do more, but frankly just the fighter chassis on its own is the single-best source of consistent damage you can find. Exact builds can get more ridiculous (something something Fighter's not just a dip class for once), but at the most basic level, fighter wins this competition.

Perhaps I'll change the wording, but what I had in mind, if you go and google "Highest DPR 5E" you'll find posts about a Ranger's Volley for 100 tiny creatures packed together, You'll find some based on Assassinate/surprise/special conditions which do one or two enemies at best, for a single or two turns, or builds which dip into Divine Smite/Superiority Die that exhaust themselves in a couple of turns, yet deal half the damage of what I just posted. But there isn't any problem with posting those here either, just with the former, completely non-consistent builds.

I posted this one because I think that my Bladesong lasting for 20 rounds against any target and delivering consistent damage on every turn ( Rather than say a waning Divine Smite ), my Shapechange which goes on for an hour and does perfect, non-conditional, on-hit damage every turn, to be "reasonably consistent". Haste which is is permanently available to me in such a level, and even Enlarge/Reduce which my Simulacrum who has my class ability can cast at will as Spell Mastery, augment it. But I did not say "most consistent", anywhere. I said "consistent". Important distinction. I'm looking for the highest consistent and plausible DPR, but not the highest consistency. It just needs to be of use.

I agree that Fighter wins the highest consistency. I see no problem in me posting the caster build and others posting their marital or different caster builds, as has already happened perfectly fine in this thread, so we can all have a nice little database.

[JBPuffin]

But I did not say "most consistent", anywhere. I said "consistent". Important distinction. I'm looking for the highest consistent and plausible DPR, but not the highest consistency. It just needs to be of use.

Ah - so max DR that can be applied in any situation, with resources expended considered but not prioritized. Yeah, can't help with that, but y'all have fun and try to keep things civil.

[Renduaz]

Ah - so max DR that can be applied in any situation, with resources expended considered but not prioritized. Yeah, can't help with that, but y'all have fun and try to keep things civil.

It's just needs to be a not one-shot/few turns things which the poster himself would consider impractical, and post only as a statistical curiosity. that's all there is to it really, and so far all builds here seem to fit the category.

[Arcangel4774]

Warlock 2/EK 7/Rogue 11
Eldritch blast (+cha) + bonus action weapon attack from EK (heavy xbow) + Sneak attack damage from rogue. This has no resource requirement besides bolts. A quick and easy 5d10 + 6d6 + 25. Also this build won't really behind at any point in play, which is pretty nice

[MaxWilson]

Seems like the word the OP is looking for here is "sustained", not "consistent". Shapechange is good for winning one fight a day, especially if you know it's coming. Burst DPR like paladin smites will also let you win one fight a day, but only if it's short, e.g. a 1v1 duel. The suggested strategy with Planetar Shapechange is partially illegal (Haste explicitly disallows using Extra Attack on the attack it gives you) and has potential issues with concentration (including a vulnerability if your Haste caster loses his own concentration), but that aside, it would be pretty okay-ish if your task were a single longer fight, like "kill two ancient dragons that are hiding somewhere inside this cave" that you wouldn't be able to handle with pure burst DPR.

You can judge for yourself how likely that sort of thing is to come up at your table.

[Renduaz]

Seems like the word the OP is looking for here is "sustained", not "consistent". Shapechange is good for winning one fight a day, especially if you know it's coming. Burst DPR like paladin smites will also let you win one fight a day, but only if it's short, e.g. a 1v1 duel. The suggested strategy with Planetar Shapechange is partially illegal (Haste explicitly disallows using Extra Attack on the attack it gives you) and has potential issues with concentration (including a vulnerability if your Haste caster loses his own concentration), but that aside, it would be pretty okay-ish if your task were a single longer fight, like "kill two ancient dragons that are hiding somewhere inside this cave" that you wouldn't be able to handle with pure burst DPR.

You can judge for yourself how likely that sort of thing is to come up at your table.

Shapechange goes on for an hour, I wouldn't call it "1 fight", especially at higher level when you ought to be exploring extremely densely packed danger zones crawling with enemies in every corner. Having never expended the majority of your mid-lower spells, having access to Dimension Door, Arcane Gate, etc..., with the kind of speed you're packing with long-lasting spells, and your speed while Shapechanged, all in all 1 hour is all it takes for you to wipe out half/all of an highest level enemy city or dungeon. I've changed Hasted Extra attack. We lost something but not much, Marilith still keeping it's 180 DPR.

Sage Advice clarified that line of sight/distance is irrelevant to concentration unless explicitly stated otherwise, so if using a Simulacrum, it can cast it on you and then you just stow it somewhere, in a Rope Trick space if you so wish ( Which you could even Spell Master ). Concentration loss is a problem but very unlikely with you defensive measures and base defense. Dispel Magic is the only thing you need worry about, which is uncommon, while you have plenty of Counterspells available.

[Malifice]

In your campaign

Nope. Thats the default expressly laid out in the DMG.

YOUR campaign might not follow this baseline, but take that up with your DM.


It can be like that, or it can be 3 hard encounters before the party props up a Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion and takes a long rest...

And the princess is slain/ the ritual completed/ the BBEG moves the macguffin and the party fail the quest.

The default DMG baseline is 6-8 medium- hard encounters, featuring 2-3 short rests in between long rests.

Thats your default.

And if you want 'consistent and plausable DPR', start at 1st level. 20th level wish/ simulacrum/ shapechange spamming builds are neither consistent nor are they plausable.

[Renduaz]

Nope. Thats the default expressly laid out in the DMG.

YOUR campaign might not follow this baseline, but take that up with your DM.

You don't seem to know what's an "encounter".




And the princess is slain/ the ritual completed/ the BBEG moves the macguffin and the party fail the quest.

The default DMG baseline is 6-8 medium- hard encounters, featuring 2-3 short rests in between long rests.

Thats your default.

And if you want 'consistent and plausable DPR', start at 1st level. 20th level wish/ simulacrum/ shapechange spamming builds are neither consistent nor are they plausable.

Either don't ignore everything I explained to you in the post, or don't reply and just leave.

[MaxWilson]

Shapechange goes on for an hour, I wouldn't call it "1 fight", especially at higher level when you ought to be exploring extremely densely packed danger zones crawling with enemies in every corner. Having never expended the majority of your mid-lower spells, having access to Dimension Door, Arcane Gate, etc..., with the kind of speed you're packing with long-lasting spells, and your speed while Shapechanged, all in all 1 hour is all it takes for you to wipe out half/all of an highest level enemy city or dungeon. I've changed Hasted Extra attack. We lost something but not much, Marilith still keeping it's 180 DPR.

Sage Advice clarified that line of sight/distance is irrelevant to concentration unless explicitly stated otherwise, so if using a Simulacrum, it can cast it on you and then you just stow it somewhere, in a Rope Trick space if you so wish ( Which you could even Spell Master ). Concentration loss is a problem but very unlikely with you defensive measures and base defense. Dispel Magic is the only thing you need worry about, which is uncommon, while you have plenty of Counterspells available.

So, is the Simulacrum popping in and out of your Rope Trick to Haste you at the start of every fight? That is a pretty huge vulnerability if it loses initiative or fails to climb the rope quickly enough.

So eliminate the Haste from the equation--it's not plausible. Extra Attack isn't any better than the Planetar's Multi-attack, so scratch that from relevancy. Song of Victory can't be used because you're using two-handed weapons, and neither can any of the other Bladesinger features--so we learn that Planetar is just as good for a non-Bladesinger as a Bladesinger, or alternately that Planetar is a bad form for Bladesingers. Marilith form works okay (and at least it's Bladesong-compatible) but of course it has quite a low to-hit bonus, it's a non-flying, rather slow form not suited to killing anything but melee foes, and it's rather fragile to boot with only AC 18 (+5 against many melee attacks) and 189 HP.

As far as "extremely dense danger-packed zones crawling with enemies in every corner", well, let's see. A 20th level party of four gives the DM a budget of 200,000 adjusted XP in the adventuring day. Let's say there is indeed one of these extremely dense danger-packed zones, which is nevertheless mostly location-driven so that "encounters" stay mostly separate unless something happens to trigger conglomeration (e.g. if an alarm is raised, the next encounter's worth of enemies may hear and join the fight). Let's say for fun that the location is the temple of Hades, which you want to loot. The temple grounds are extensive, about the size of a high school campus (say a quarter mile long by a quarter mile wide).

In a big building at the north end of the grounds, we've got an Alhoon and seven Tanarukks engaged in dark rituals, with the Alhoon sucking the life out of screaming slaves and the Tanarukks mutilating and consuming their flesh. Cost: 46,250.

Guarding the "cattle pens" filled with slaves, outside is a company of hobgoblins. 80 hobgoblins, 2 hobgoblin captains, and 2 hobgoblin devastators, camped around the edge of a field full of iron cages of slaves. Cost: 54,400.

The temple's security squad consists of aerial recon patrols, a total of 1 young white dragon, 1 young black dragon, 1 young green dragon, and 1 young blue dragon, all under the commander of a beholder. The dragons' MO is to take it in turns to circle and observe from above, then report any trouble back to the beholder. The beholder will prefer to engage a major threat like the PCs' incursion with all four dragons from the air simultaneously while the beholder itself shuts down spells and/or provides medium-range fire support. (For a lesser threat it might just send a runner to the hobgoblins and tell them to take care of beating up a trespasser or something.) When not patrolling, the dragons and the beholders have an aerie on the third floor of the large building next to treasury building to the south. Cost: 48,200.

Finally, the Hyronymous the Blessed, First Son of Hades, luxuriates eating grapes in his apartments beneath the main temple, surrounded by servants, clerks and functionaries. He's an Empyrean. Cost: 50,000.

Total cost: 198,850, so just under budget.

How's a Marilith going to fare against all this? Is one Shapechange spell really likely to last the whole time? I'm skeptical. Much depends on how the party as a whole approaches the conflicts (do they use stealth?
how fast and how efficient is the party healer, and does he heal the Marilith between combats? etc.) but for example all it takes is for the Marilith to fail its save vs. the Alhoon's Mind Blast, to get caught in the beholder's anti-magic cone long enough for a dragon to damage the now-just-a-wizard and break its concentration, to fail a Dex save vs. the black dragon breath and then fail the DC 25 Con save to keep concentration, to fail its save vs. the Titan's maul's stun, or simply to run out of HP because 40 hobgoblins (all the hobgoblins on one side of the field) are all focusing fire on you for 75 HP of damage per round, or 173 HP if there's at least one hobgoblin still fighting you in melee range. (You could try to Shield but it might get Counterspelled by a Devastator; and even then you still take plenty of damage.)

[Renduaz]

So, is the Simulacrum popping in and out of your Rope Trick to Haste you at the start of every fight? That is a pretty huge vulnerability if it loses initiative or fails to climb the rope quickly enough.

So eliminate the Haste from the equation--it's not plausible. Extra Attack isn't any better than the Planetar's Multi-attack, so scratch that from relevancy. Song of Victory can't be used because you're using two-handed weapons, and neither can any of the other Bladesinger features--so we learn that Planetar is just as good for a non-Bladesinger as a Bladesinger, or alternately that Planetar is a bad form for Bladesingers. Marilith form works okay (and at least it's Bladesong-compatible) but of course it has quite a low to-hit bonus, it's a non-flying, rather slow form not suited to killing anything but melee foes, and it's rather fragile to boot with only AC 18 (+5 against many melee attacks) and 189 HP.

As far as "extremely dense danger-packed zones crawling with enemies in every corner", well, let's see. A 20th level party of four gives the DM a budget of 200,000 adjusted XP in the adventuring day. Let's say there is indeed one of these extremely dense danger-packed zones, which is nevertheless mostly location-driven so that "encounters" stay mostly separate unless something happens to trigger conglomeration (e.g. if an alarm is raised, the next encounter's worth of enemies may hear and join the fight). Let's say for fun that the location is the temple of Hades, which you want to loot. The temple grounds are extensive, about the size of a high school campus (say a quarter mile long by a quarter mile wide).

In a big building at the north end of the grounds, we've got an Alhoon and seven Tanarukks engaged in dark rituals, with the Alhoon sucking the life out of screaming slaves and the Tanarukks mutilating and consuming their flesh. Cost: 46,250.

Guarding the "cattle pens" filled with slaves, outside is a company of hobgoblins. 80 hobgoblins, 2 hobgoblin captains, and 2 hobgoblin devastators, camped around the edge of a field full of iron cages of slaves. Cost: 54,400.

The temple's security squad consists of aerial recon patrols, a total of 1 young white dragon, 1 young black dragon, 1 young green dragon, and 1 young blue dragon, all under the commander of a beholder. The dragons' MO is to take it in turns to circle and observe from above, then report any trouble back to the beholder. The beholder will prefer to engage a major threat like the PCs' incursion with all four dragons from the air simultaneously while the beholder itself shuts down spells and/or provides medium-range fire support. (For a lesser threat it might just send a runner to the hobgoblins and tell them to take care of beating up a trespasser or something.) When not patrolling, the dragons and the beholders have an aerie on the third floor of the large building next to treasury building to the south. Cost: 48,200.

Finally, the Hyronymous the Blessed, First Son of Hades, luxuriates eating grapes in his apartments beneath the main temple, surrounded by servants, clerks and functionaries. He's an Empyrean. Cost: 50,000.

Total cost: 198,850, so just under budget.

How's a Marilith going to fare against all this? Is one Shapechange spell really likely to last the whole time? I'm skeptical. Much depends on how the party as a whole approaches the conflicts (do they use stealth?
how fast and how efficient is the party healer, and does he heal the Marilith between combats? etc.) but for example all it takes is for the Marilith to fail its save vs. the Alhoon's Mind Blast, to get caught in the beholder's anti-magic cone long enough for a dragon to damage the now-just-a-wizard and break its concentration, to fail a Dex save vs. the black dragon breath and then fail the DC 25 Con save to keep concentration, to fail its save vs. the Titan's maul's stun, or simply to run out of HP because 40 hobgoblins (all the hobgoblins on one side of the field) are all focusing fire on you for 75 HP of damage per round, or 173 HP if there's at least one hobgoblin still fighting you in melee range. (You could try to Shield but it might get Counterspelled by a Devastator; and even then you still take plenty of damage.)

First of all let's start with the fact that even without Haste you still get around 160 damage with the Marilith and maybe around 150 or so with the Planetar. Haste is very plausible, the Simulacrum doesn't pop in and out, it Hastes me, and THEN pops inside. Hastes me, then on second turn pops a rope trick/mansion and disappears. Contingency for "Dimension Door" right after hasting me, if need be. Concentration can be maintained from anywhere. The advantage of the Planetar would indeed be, as I've said, being usable even without Bladesinger or Fighter at all, you just need a Wizard with the right feats.

Our to hit bonus as a Marilith is in fact 10 ( 4+6 ) from our own as level 20, since with Shapechange, we take the highest proficiency. Bonuses aside, I don't see how any other pure class gets significantly higher, except for +11 with 5 STR or +12 with Barbarian. "Non-flying"? That's what the Planetar for. Exchange Sentinel feat for GWM and Dual Wielder for versatility if it's important for you so you can switch. Or exchange your Haste from the Simulacrum for Fly when needed.

"Fragile to boot" only if choosing to be obtuse about it. You have spell mastered Shield, that's 23. 24 from Dual Wielder. 29 against melee. Oh the fragility, we're practically a goldfish. And throw in a little "Blink" in there for an instant 50% reduction in the possibility of even targeting you for the round.

As for your scenario, coming right up:

First of all, packed danger zones are less about CR, more about proximity. Peruse the official adventure modules, and even if we were to have "6-8" combat encounters per day ( Which practically never happens and if you google it, you'd find everyone expressing incredulity about it all over the internet. Literally, screenshot the first google results. ) But even so, in official modules ( and most campaigns ), it would be most common for 3-4 of those to be accessible within the span of an hour. One cave section, a short distance away, another. Dungeon floor 1, super sealed locked entry, dungeon floor 2. Hobgoblin Warcamp, official example. Tiamat's temple. It would be uncommon to have 8 encounters somehow perfectly spaced every 40 minutes of trekking, even in open terrain it would be uncommon. It would be more common perhaps to finish 1 encounter, take a short rest, then teleport somewhere, 2 encounters, etc.. but just as likely as a dungeon/city with most of the encounters packed within there before finding some safety and taking a long rest. Lastly it does not happen all the time or even half the time that 5 hours difference between 3 short rests or a long one ( And by the way, as a High Elf Bladesinger, your Long Rest is 4 hours ) will make a big impact.

Secondly, this is less a question of how would my Marilith ( And my party ) fare as opposed to how would any other DPR build fare in the same scenario. So let's begin with all of that in mind.

My stated goal is to loot the place? The cattle pens, security patrols and dark ritual space ( Unless they have some artifact ) are irrelevant to me, and I'll prefer to focus on the Empyrean's stash. I/my party Scry on him for as many days as can be spared. If a success, instantly Teleport. If no days available or unsuccessful, I can probably see the Temple "Grounds". I'll put up a magnificent mansion/rope trick somewhere and send a parade of Arcane Eyes to pry around, then enter my safety, trying to keep the Arcane Eye out of sight. Regardless, upon finding or knowing my destination, I'll Shapechange, Ancient White Dragon first, burrow into the earth, try to emerge beneath the temple, shapechange into the Marilith/Planetar, kill the Empyrean in one strike with an Action Surge, grab as much **** as I possibly can and Teleportation/Plane Shift out of there.

Perhaps you'd prefer to make my goal kill as many creatures as possible? Let's say it is so I can dismantle the place for gold. Unless we want to turn this into a game, then by my estimate my build and a party of 4 could wipe out either the Alhoon and minions, or security. The alhoon and minions, with my turn killing it first and a Tanarukk with action surge, and the rest of my 20th level party attacking, they would be down before they can bring my health all the way down if they even manage to hit me, while I could easily be healed back.

None of the Hogoblins can hit me with my AC and not to mention Blink except with a natural 20, so I'm pretty sure I'd fare just as well as any other build. However AOE attacks will be better here so I'll leave it to the party, since in the meantime it is 100% guaranteed the security has been alerted and the dragons, plus beholder at much slower rate are coming.

If one dragon reaches first, I can arguably take it down with one hit. When the beholder is about to reach a range from which, on it's turn, it'd be able to target me with antimagic ( And btw it only surpasses it before I move away ), then I'll go at it from the side if necessary and put it down before anything. If need be, I'll even "Contingency" prior to the assault for a Dimension door behind the beholder when I desire it to happen. Then the rest of the young dragons being whaled on by me, and only rarely hitting, and from there on the Empyrean is utterly alone underground. If it's smart it probably plane shifted away completely by now. I can just rest as much as I want ( or not ) and go kill it.


As for your points again - I retain my INT and saving throw proficiencies which are high as a Wizard. I can only be hit 50% of the time with Blink. Any hobgoblin must roll natural 20 to hit me with Spell mastered shield plus dual wield. I can handle the beholder before it's cone is in range, and as for CON, I could possibly engage as ancient white dragon, going through the adult dragon rosters first and use legendary resistances, before transforming to the marilith when down on my hp. Counterspell anything with my own reserve of counterspells, since I'm not wasting spell slots for the most part. At any rate I'm still laying much more destruction than any other build.

[Dudewithknives]

If it is ok evidently to spend resources then bring on the crazy:

Play a tiefling with Flames of Phelgethos feat and elemental adept: fire
3 Levels of lore wizard
1 level of Undying Light Warlock (I know sort of got replaced with celestial but this is just for fun.
16 levels of Dragon sorcerer (Red)

Take the spell magic missile: 1d4 +1 for 3 bolts.
Use lore wizard to change it to fire.
Undying light adds charisma now and so does Dragon Sorcerer so +10
Lore wizard can blow 1 first level spell to add 2D10

Now due to the incredibly stupid sage advice rulings on Magic Missile we end up with this:

Base missile is 1D4 + 2D10 + 11 each where all 1's count as 2's and get to be rerolled anyway and can ignore resistance.
So average damage of: 20 per missile discounting rerolled damage.
So level 1 Spell for 60 damage up to level 9 for 220 damage.

Down side, it is all fire.
You can ignore resistance but immunity still bites.
With Sorcerer you could do it all stilled to stop any counterspell and save yours in case someone pops shield.
Or cast it against someone without the shield spell or counterspell and throw in a firebolt for 6D10 + 10, maybe even twinned if you want to quicken the magic missile.

1 round would be over 300 damage easy if you went all out.

[Renduaz]

If it is ok evidently to spend resources then bring on the crazy:

Play a tiefling with Flames of Phelgethos feat and elemental adept: fire
3 Levels of lore bard
1 level of Undying Light Warlock (I know sort of got replaced with celestial but this is just for fun.
16 levels of Dragon sorcerer (Red)

Take the spell magic missile: 1d4 +1 for 3 bolts.
Use lore wizard to change it to fire.
Undying light adds charisma now and so does Dragon Sorcerer so +10
Lore wizard can blow 1 first level spell to add 2D10

Now due to the incredibly stupid sage advice rulings on Magic Missile we end up with this:

Base missile is 1D4 + 2D10 + 11 each where all 1's count as 2's and get to be rerolled anyway and can ignore resistance.
So average damage of: 20 per missile discounting rerolled damage.
So level 1 Spell for 60 damage up to level 9 for 220 damage.

Down side, it is all fire.
You can ignore resistance but immunity still bites.
With Sorcerer you could do it all stilled to stop any counterspell and save yours in case someone pops shield.
Or cast it against someone without the shield spell or counterspell and throw in a firebolt for 6D10 + 10, maybe even twinned if you want to quicken the magic missile.

1 round would be over 300 damage easy if you went all out.

And that is why the completely broken, unbalanced UA articles are not official. Not that this wouldn't be great with any DM who has chosen to allow Unearthed Arcana.

[Unoriginal]

If you want to make it plausible, when you fight in a zone densely-packed with enemies, they will most likely all gang up together and attack, lead by the one in charge, as soon they see you pose a threat.

[RSP]

they will most likely all gang up together and attack, lead by the one in charge, as soon they see you pose a threat.

I disagree. Any intelligent foe will let their minions deal with you while they figure out your weaknesses. Particularly with what you're fighting at level 20, I doubt anything with decent intelligence just jumps in.

More likely, you'll be facing a horde while the big bad either tries to dispel your shape change or waits it out.

Also, if the DM allows "okay prepare everything and then just teleport in and surprise the big bad," then you're going to win with or without this build.

Also, Forbiddance screws this build over pretty hard (including teleports). I expect any enemy facing level 20s to have access to such resources (that is, 6th level spells).

[Renduaz]

I disagree. Any intelligent foe will let their minions deal with you while they figure out your weaknesses. Particularly with what you're fighting at level 20, I doubt anything with decent intelligence just jumps in.

More likely, you'll be facing a horde while the big bad either tries to dispel your shape change or waits it out.

Also, if the DM allows "okay prepare everything and then just teleport in and surprise the big bad," then you're going to win with or without this build.

Also, Forbiddance screws this build over pretty hard (including teleports). I expect any enemy facing level 20s to have access to such resources (that is, 6th level spells).

I've given my plan with or without teleportation, and without any "prepare everything", in the post, in the latter part. Which I see no reason to be less effective than any other build, rather moreso due to highest DPR. My plan was an estimation for destroying all forces in the scenario except for the Empyrean himself. If he waits his forces are gone and he's done for sooner or later. "Dispel" is rare among creatures. Neither the Empyrean nor any of the other monsters listed by Max have dispel at all, and that's for a reason. Because it's very rare. It will be a problem with Class casters, but with Blink, a mostly undepleted pool of Counterspells, among other things, I can protect myself. If I'm facing dozens of mid-level Classed casters or several high-level ones, then I'm likely screwed, but so would any other party be, since they might as well have "Blink" and "Polymorph" with one or two Divination Wizards among them, to turn the entire party into chickens in a single barrage. But that should rarely happen, and when it does, my character would actually be able to withstand such an encounter the most due to still being an 18th level Wizard Bladesinger with all it entails and all my spell capabilities even without the Shapechange for DPR, and being able to ward myself with "Antimagic Field". Meanwhile the 20th level permanent DPS Fighter is now a chicken for an hour. Or forcefully Plane Shifted to Carceri by a higher level caster, and can't come back without help.


Then, we can continue "But what if X and Y and Z and T" while the question that really needs to be asked is how X and Y affect me specifically moreso than others. Forbiddance is one such good example, yet if an enemy has the time, means and magic of these high-level spells to ward an area, any party is in for much more trouble than that. Banned teleportation means thousands of options for trapping without escape, and no fighting at all. Mirage Arcane as a structure could do it for instance. Guess what casting Forbiddance on somewhere in the Feywild would mean, based on the spell's description? A few casters with 9 archers each, within Leomund's Tiny Hut spread out everywhere, in a Forbiddance/Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum zone, Made invisible with Major Images of the 6th level or higher/Mirage Arcane even, while the BBEG seals himself in a Forcecage immediately upon arrival.

But, the answer to most of those with any party, and the answer to prevent Forbiddance from "screwing this build over pretty hard" is, guess what - Dispel Magic. Unlike a lot of monsters, me and maybe a member or two of my party ( Since it's spread out for all spellcasting classes possible almost ), do in fact have a steady access to that spell. Upon noticing it, one 6th level Dispel Magic, or a few lower ones until making the DC, and poof, bye-bye Forbiddance. It will take 10 minutes to even create a new ward. And then the party or caster will get rid of it again.

[Unoriginal]

I disagree. Any intelligent foe will let their minions deal with you while they figure out your weaknesses. Particularly with what you're fighting at level 20, I doubt anything with decent intelligence just jumps in.

More likely, you'll be facing a horde while the big bad either tries to dispel your shape change or waits it out.


Err, you've just contradicted yourself.

Also, I admit I was not clear, but I didn't mean "the leader engages you personally", I meant "the leader directs their troops"

[RSP]

Err, you've just contradicted yourself.

Also, I admit I was not clear, but I didn't mean "the leader engages you personally", I meant "the leader directs their troops"

Gotcha, though not sure what the contradiction is: are you counting "trying to dispel" as "engaging?"

[MaxWilson]

*snip*Regardless, upon finding or knowing my destination, I'll Shapechange, Ancient White Dragon first, burrow into the earth, try to emerge beneath the temple, shapechange into the Marilith/Planetar, kill the Empyrean in one strike with an Action Surge, grab as much [stuff] as I possibly can and Teleportation/Plane Shift out of there.*snip*

Sorry for the short reply--I appreciate your response to the rest of the scenario, I acknowledge that the Marilith has a +10 to hit and is not as fragile vs. the hobgoblins as I was thinking (I forgot about Dual Wielder and Bladesong), but rather than get into an extended point-by-point discussion about individual scenarios can I first ask you to justify this claim? This is really the core of your argument right here, this assumption that you can vaporize pretty much anything in one action, so I figure if we can settle this then we can likewise assume that you can do all the other things you claim, e.g. vaporize an Alhoon and a Tanarukk on the first round of combat.

The way I do the math, you have no chance of one-shotting the Empyrean with an Action Surge. Fifteen attacks at +10 for 2d8+9 (thirteen sword strikes) or 2d10+9 (two tail strikes) against AC 22 is only 130 HP of damage. The Empyrean is still at over 60% of its HP, and now it's hitting you back with its maul twice a round and you're all alone.

What makes you think you're going to one-shot it? Apparently you're computing your damage as being 2.5x as much as I compute it. At least one of us is overlooking something pretty big--it might be me, so my math is above. But I rather think you've making the horrible mistake of forgetting about to-hit rolls, which gives you a vastly inflated impression of your DPR.


Neither the Empyrean nor any of the other monsters listed by Max have dispel at all, and that's for a reason.

*Ahem.* The beholder has something quite a bit better than Dispel Magic: it has an antimagic eye. If it turns that puppy on you when there's a dragon or three within melee range of your Marilith, goodbye squishy wizard.

Edit: you should also assume that the hobgoblin Devastators knows Counterspell. It's a fairly obvious choice for war-mages. Other than that, don't assume their spell loadout is identical to Volo's, since the MM lets you swap spells around freely on a spellcaster.

[JNAProductions]

Question: What are this build's stats? Assume PB.

[CaptainSarathai]

If it is ok evidently to spend resources then bring on the crazy:

Play a tiefling with Flames of Phelgethos feat and elemental adept: fire
3 Levels of lore wizard
1 level of Undying Light Warlock (I know sort of got replaced with celestial but this is just for fun.
16 levels of Dragon sorcerer (Red)

Take the spell magic missile: 1d4 +1 for 3 bolts.
Use lore wizard to change it to fire.
Undying light adds charisma now and so does Dragon Sorcerer so +10
Lore wizard can blow 1 first level spell to add 2D10

Now due to the incredibly stupid sage advice rulings on Magic Missile we end up with this:

Base missile is 1D4 + 2D10 + 11 each where all 1's count as 2's and get to be rerolled anyway and can ignore resistance.
So average damage of: 20 per missile discounting rerolled damage.
So level 1 Spell for 60 damage up to level 9 for 220 damage.

Down side, it is all fire.
You can ignore resistance but immunity still bites.
With Sorcerer you could do it all stilled to stop any counterspell and save yours in case someone pops shield.
Or cast it against someone without the shield spell or counterspell and throw in a firebolt for 6D10 + 10, maybe even twinned if you want to quicken the magic missile.

1 round would be over 300 damage easy if you went all out.

And this is what makes this question so absurdly dumb. Most classes do about 50 damage per turn, without expending resources. A fighter might land about 100 damage in a turn, no resources (but also can't really "nova" as high as the others).
Once you start using even one resource, you open the door for a sort of sliding-scale of what's appropriate. You might use a single spell slot, someone else says that they'll use a Short Rest ability, then you add that to your build - at one point is it no longer sustainable?
Not to mention, you don't really need to smash 100 damage into every attack. That's what balances out the At Will and the Nova builds/classes. The guy who can suddenly pound 500 damage into a Dragon's face is really awesome if you're killing dragons. If you're knee-deep in goblins, well, that one goblin is suuuuper dead but no more dead than the goblin who took 14 damage and keeled over. Take my "anti-terrasque" build for example. This is the most damage I've ever managed to put together in a single swing against a target without requiring weird setups and gymnastics:

Half Orc w/ GreatAxe
Rogue 3 (Assassin), Paladin2, Sorcerer 3, Fighter (Eldritch Knight) 12
Feats: Great Weapon Master, Alert(?), Savage Attacker(?)

You have spell levels as an 8th level caster:
4x Lvl1
3x Lvl2, Lvl3
2x Lvl4
Burn down all your spells into 7, 4th level slots and 2 Sorcery Points.

On your surprise round, all your attacks have Advantage, and AutoCrit on hits. You have 7, 4th level spell slots for maximum Smiting. You've had 4 ASIs, and should have 20 Str in addition to GWM. With Half Orc, you add an extra weapon die to Crits, so each hit you score should be:
3d12+10d8+15 = 79.5 damage.
At Fighter 11, you make 3 attacks. You also have Action Surge, to take an additional Attack Action. So you're making 6 attacks, Smiting on each.

As your bonus action, with your 2 Spell Points you use Quicken and cast Green Flame Blade from the SCAG. As part of the spell you make an additional weapon attack, and at 17th level and higher, the attack does an extra 3d8 damage. So GFB Crit will be:
3d12+16d8+15 = 106.5

So in a single turn you have burned out all of your daily spell slots, and used a Short Rest fighter feature. Total damage for turn:
79.5 x6
+106.5
583.5 average damage (assuming everything hits)

Terrasque boasts 676hp. You can, with good rolls, actually 1-shot the beast if you somehow manage to sneak up to it and catch it by surprise.

[MaxWilson]

583.5 average damage (assuming everything hits)

Terrasque boasts 676hp. You can, with good rolls, actually 1-shot the beast if you somehow manage to sneak up to it and catch it by surprise.

You'd have to have pretty fantastically good rolls. You're making seven attacks (with advantage) at +6 to hit against AC 25. Each attack has a 19% chance to hit, counting advantage. Hitting with all seven attacks has probability 0.19^7, or in other words it happens 0.0009% of the time: once in 111,873 attempts. And even then, you don't kill it unless you roll unusually high on your damage.

[Unoriginal]

This thread makes me want to put an Empyrean expy of Hedonism Bot from Futurama.

"A battle! How positively marvelous! Djumi, bring the chocolate fondue and the ether!"

[Renduaz]

Sorry for the short reply--I appreciate your response to the rest of the scenario, I acknowledge that the Marilith has a +10 to hit and is not as fragile vs. the hobgoblins as I was thinking (I forgot about Dual Wielder and Bladesong), but rather than get into an extended point-by-point discussion about individual scenarios can I first ask you to justify this claim? This is really the core of your argument right here, this assumption that you can vaporize pretty much anything in one action, so I figure if we can settle this then we can likewise assume that you can do all the other things you claim, e.g. vaporize an Alhoon and a Tanarukk on the first round of combat.

The way I do the math, you have no chance of one-shotting the Empyrean with an Action Surge. Fifteen attacks at +10 for 2d8+9 (thirteen sword strikes) or 2d10+9 (two tail strikes) against AC 22 is only 130 HP of damage. The Empyrean is still at over 60% of its HP, and now it's hitting you back with its maul twice a round and you're all alone.

What makes you think you're going to one-shot it? Apparently you're computing your damage as being 2.5x as much as I compute it. At least one of us is overlooking something pretty big--it might be me, so my math is above. But I rather think you've making the horrible mistake of forgetting about to-hit rolls, which gives you a vastly inflated impression of your DPR.



*Ahem.* The beholder has something quite a bit better than Dispel Magic: it has an antimagic eye. If it turns that puppy on you when there's a dragon or three within melee range of your Marilith, goodbye squishy wizard.

Edit: you should also assume that the hobgoblin Devastators knows Counterspell. It's a fairly obvious choice for war-mages. Other than that, don't assume their spell loadout is identical to Volo's, since the MM lets you swap spells around freely on a spellcaster.

I was ignoring the attack rolls for the purposes of this since I noticed other people doing so, but you're right. I'll need rolls of 12 or higher to hit the Empyrean himself, albeit only 8 even for the adult red dragons to hit anything outside. Although your math is wrong, it's 14 sword attacks, and I've included Enlarge, but we can eve take it out if you want. 6 sword attacks, Marilith Multiattack. Hasted sword attack, 7 attacks. Two-weapon fighting, 8 attacks. Action Surge, 6 more as the Multiattack. And the two tail strikes. But regardless still much lower when accounting for to hit bonus, I suppose.

However, my Simulacrum ( Unless it's Shapechanging just like me and coming along for even more insane damage, acting on my turn ) can take certain measures to improve that, like using it's 9th level slot to cast "Foresight" on me for advantage, which would only take a few seconds before I decide to infilitrate. ( While the Empyrean also has disadvantage ), and I possess Blink, very high AC especially for melee as a Marilith - I think it's 19 ( Dual ), then 24 ( Bladesong ), then 29 ( Spell Mastered Shield ), and 34 for Parry. Empyrean needs to roll higher than 17 to hit, has disadvantage, and reduced 50% chance to target me due to Blink. With Advantage I might be able to kill it in 2, if not 1 turn, and I'd say I'm pretty safe from everything it can do.

[JNAProductions]

Can't Parry and Shield in the same turn. Same round, yes, due to the Marilith ability, but not the same turn.

And again-what are this build's stats?

[Renduaz]

Can't Parry and Shield in the same turn. Same round, yes, due to the Marilith ability, but not the same turn.

And again-what are this build's stats?

I was thinking about his Legendary Actions. Well, if I were fighting with others at least ( In which case Shield goes up first and then parry for each legendary action ). It would also be 34 against a multitude of enemies, Shield going up on first attack, and Parry against all subsequent melee attacks. But it's, actually wait, I got the math wrong. With a +2AC bonus from Haste it's actually 31 at all times, and 36 with Parry. Still incredibly high.

As for the build stats, For the Marilith, it would be High Elf Bladesinger 18/ Fighter 2.

With point buy, we go up to 16 INT, 17 Dex, 15 CON, 8 STR, 8 WIS, 8 CHA. 2 ASI's for bringing INT to 20, then 2 ASI's as the Dual Wielder and Sentinel ( If you want to make good use of the Marilith's reactions, otherwise anything else can be picked, or raise your DEX to 19 if you want ) as feats. Multiclassing into Fighter is either STR or DEX above 13, and we get a decent enough bonus for dual wielding Rapiers ( Finesse, same damage as Longsword ) whenever not Shapechanged too.

[MaxWilson]

I was ignoring the attack rolls for the purposes of this since I noticed other people doing so, but you're right. I'll need rolls of 12 or higher to hit the Empyrean himself, albeit only 8 even for the adult red dragons to hit anything outside. Although your math is wrong, it's 14 sword attacks, and I've included Enlarge, but we can eve take it out if you want. 6 sword attacks, Marilith Multiattack. Hasted sword attack, 7 attacks. Two-weapon fighting, 8 attacks. Action Surge, 6 more as the Multiattack. And the two tail strikes. But regardless still much lower when accounting for to hit bonus, I suppose.

14 attacks because of Haste? If you're burrowing through the earth to get to the temple, who's casting Haste on you? And who's casting Enlarge? Obviously not yourself since your own concentration is busy with Shapechange. If there are multiple combatants involved, the Empyrean gets more legendary actions, so you'll be facing three or four attacks per turn instead of just two.

Anyway, it's clear that it's going to take you several rounds just to kill the Empyrean, which gives him plenty of time to kill you first. The main point is that clearly you can't just vaporize things in one hit. This applies to Alhoons and Tanarukks, and also to the beholder--you might be able to one-shot the beholder if you could action surge while fully buffed, but if you're saving your action surge for the Empyrean, it's not available. (You could take a short rest of course to regain action surge, but now you're back to Shapechange only lasting for one or two fights instead of for the whole duration of the raid/adventuring day/whatever.)


However, my Simulacrum ( Unless it's Shapechanging just like me and coming along for even more insane damage, acting on my turn ) can take certain measures to improve that, like using it's 9th level slot to cast "Foresight" on me for advantage, which would only take a few seconds before I decide to infilitrate. ( While the Empyrean also has disadvantage ), and I possess Blink, very high AC especially for melee as a Marilith - I think it's 19 ( Dual ), then 24 ( Bladesong ), then 29 ( Spell Mastered Shield ), and 34 for Parry. Empyrean needs to roll higher than 17 to hit, has disadvantage, and reduced 50% chance to target me due to Blink. With Advantage I might be able to kill it in 2, if not 1 turn, and I'd say I'm pretty safe from everything it can do.

Oh, maybe. It certainly can't hurt your odds of survival. He might just kill your Haster though, and then kite you to death--we'd have to game it out to see for sure what happens. And you're still going to have issues with the beholder's antimagic eye, and the Alhoon's mind blast.

Now we're not even talking about the build though--we're just talking about the power of Simulacrum, and to a lesser extent the power of Shapechange and Foresight and the weakness/boringness of 5E MM monsters compared to previous editions. You could be a plain vanilla 20th level Transmuter and still have about as good a chance as your custom Bladesinger at beating any given encounter in Hades' temple, based purely on the strength of Shapechange + Simulacrum. An Ancient White Dragon (or an adult silver dragon) with spellcasting and Foresight active is formidable; everyone already knows that. Build optimizations on top of that are superfluous and beside the point.


I think it's 19 ( Dual ), then 24 ( Bladesong ), then 29 ( Spell Mastered Shield ), and 34 for Parry. Empyrean needs to roll higher than 17 to hit, has disadvantage, and reduced 50% chance to target me due to Blink. With Advantage I might be able to kill it in 2, if not 1 turn, and I'd say I'm pretty safe from everything it can do.

With Foresight and Bladesong up you're sort of semi-safe from its maul: with +17 to hit and disadvantage, it has about a 20% chance to beat your AC 29 for Shield. I don't know the math offhand for predicting whether Parry will be relevant (it's only relevant if it hits you twice in a round), but Blink isn't really relevant at all since if you blink out it just has twice as much motivation to leave, gather up its brute squad, and come kill you. (And now you've used up one of your two Bladesong usages.) Since you're Blinked out, it doesn't even take an opportunity attack. If you want to have any chance at winning, you must use your Sentinel to threaten opportunity attacks and keep the Empyrean engaged with you--Blinking out is a bad move for you and leads to death or mission failure.

[Renduaz]

14 attacks because of Haste? If you're burrowing through the earth to get to the temple, who's casting Haste on you? And who's casting Enlarge? Obviously not yourself since your own concentration is busy with Shapechange. If there are multiple combatants involved, the Empyrean gets more legendary actions, so you'll be facing three or four attacks per turn instead of just two.

Anyway, it's clear that it's going to take you several rounds just to kill the Empyrean, which gives him plenty of time to kill you first. The main point is that clearly you can't just vaporize things in one hit. This applies to Alhoons and Tanarukks, and also to the beholder--you might be able to one-shot the beholder if you could action surge while fully buffed, but if you're saving your action surge for the Empyrean, it's not available. (You could take a short rest of course to regain action surge, but now you're back to Shapechange only lasting for one or two fights instead of for the whole duration of the raid/adventuring day/whatever.)



Oh, maybe. It certainly can't hurt your odds of survival. He might just kill your Haster though, and then kite you to death--we'd have to game it out to see for sure what happens. And you're still going to have issues with the beholder's antimagic eye, and the Alhoon's mind blast.

Now we're not even talking about the build though--we're just talking about the power of Simulacrum, and to a lesser extent the power of Shapechange and Foresight and the weakness/boringness of 5E MM monsters compared to previous editions. You could be a plain vanilla 20th level Transmuter and still have about as good a chance as your custom Bladesinger at beating any given encounter in Hades' temple, based purely on the strength of Shapechange + Simulacrum. An Ancient White Dragon (or an adult silver dragon) with spellcasting and Foresight active is formidable; everyone already knows that. Build optimizations on top of that are superfluous and beside the point.



With Foresight and Bladesong up you're sort of semi-safe from its maul: with +17 to hit and disadvantage, it has about a 20% chance to beat your AC 29 for Shield. I don't know the math offhand for predicting whether Parry will be relevant (it's only relevant if it hits you twice in a round), but Blink isn't really relevant at all since if you blink out it just has twice as much motivation to leave, gather up its brute squad, and come kill you. (And now you've used up one of your two Bladesong usages.) Since you're Blinked out, it doesn't even take an opportunity attack. If you want to have any chance at winning, you must use your Sentinel to threaten opportunity attacks and keep the Empyrean engaged with you--Blinking out is a bad move for you and leads to death or mission failure.

Simulacrum makes a Contingency for Dimension Door ( Not even needed, just to satisfy your standards ) immediately after Hasting me. Shapechanges into an Ancient White Dragon, follows me to the Empyrean's chamber. The Simulacrum acts on my turn. If the Empyrean goes first, then the Simulacrum has 333HP, even more insane AC/defenses, and uses Legendary Resistance to throw off the nigh impossible chance of stun/whatever. Upon my turn, The Simulacrum Hastes me ( Losing concentration on Shapechange ), Contingency activates sending it off somewhere relatively empty and far away ( Possibly somewhere on the surface away from most enemies, unless the temple underground is somehow 500 feet deep ), and on my next turn it Plane Shifts into some previously created Demiplane or Mount Celestia or what have you, maintaining concentration from there ( 100% Possible according to Sage Advice ). Note that even without Dimension Door, the chances for the Empyrean to even hit my Simualcrum as well as stun it would be very small with my non-Shapechanged AC and CON. At the end of the fight, the Simulacrum can even neatly Plane Shift back again to rejoin my side.

Enlarge could easily be achieved with two Simulacrums and the same principle, by simply having a Simulacrum create another Simulacrum. But it's optional, and will hardly make a difference even if not present for simplicity's sake.

> If there are multiple combatants involved

I was talking about fighting outside first. The Empyrean is below. With multiple combatants, Parry would be added to all melee hits with my "Reactive", since I can do it every single turn.

>Anyway, it's clear that it's going to take you several rounds just to kill the Empyrean

It's rather not clear. You claim ( Which calculations are you doing by the way? ) that based on my to hit chance ( And you haven't accounted for +10 or that it is 14 ), I can do 130 DPR. So how much is it when adjusted, and then with Advantage? Seems to me more like 2-3 rounds at best to me.

>but if you're saving your action surge for the Empyrean

Burrowing directly towards the Empyrean ( In order to steal it's **** and GTFO ), and killing everything outside the Temple, are two different approaches. If me and my party try to kill everyone, then once that is accomplished, the Empyrean is irrelevant. He just lost all of his forces. I could take as many Long Rests as I want and then stride below to finish him. Although by all logic he probably bailed out himself by then upon realizing all his defenses are gone. And if it chooses to come out himself, then he's dumber than he looks, because I'm going to "Teleport" into his chamber, break Shapechange and shove a Wall of Force or something around everything, cram my stated goals to steal into the bag of holding, and Plane Shift out of there.

>He might just kill your Haster though

Nope.

>we're just talking about the power of Simulacrum

Part of the Build, as an 18th level Wizard with all associated powers, who still has access to every spell both outside and inside of Shapechange form, and still packs a melee DPR higher than any other 20th level Build. AND a decent DPR without Shapechange as well with Song of Victory, Extra Attack, Dual Wielder, Haste and so forth, as well as an incredibly high AC yet. I have the most adaptable, overall powerful build in existence.

>You could be a plain vanilla 20th level Transmuter and still have about as good a chance as your custom Bladesinger at beating any given encounter in Hades' temple, based purely on the strength of Shapechange + Simulacrum.

Sure, with certain adjustments for AC to replace Bladesong and reduced damage ( Although still potentially higher than anything else with Planetar and GWM ), but what's your point? This thread is "Highest DPR possible", not about anything else. Shapechange is part of my Class abilities for being an 18th level Wizard, much like Rogues and Paladins and Sorclocks use what's given to them by their class to gain higher DPR.

>but Blink isn't really relevant at all since if you blink out it just has twice as much motivation to leave

In which case I steal it's **** as my stated goal in this mission and teleport out.

Before you reply though, you should first understand how does criticism of my DPR even works - Go ahead and tell me how the Sorclock or the Rogue/Ranger/Paladin freak build or even the pure Fighter fares better in your own scenario, with all of the obstacles presented by you, with all of the monster abilities, and their numbers, with all of your choices, than does my own character. If you reach the inevitable conclusion that I actually still survive and succeed better a thousand times more than everyone else, which you will if you make an honest attempt at thinking about it, then I still win in usefulness.

[MaxWilson]

Simulacrum makes a Contingency for Dimension Door ( Not even needed, just to satisfy your standards ) immediately after Hasting me. Shapechanges into an Ancient White Dragon, follows me to the Empyrean's chamber.

Wait, so now your Simulacrum has spell slots for Foresight AND Shapechange? That requires Epic Boons. And you're wasting that Shapechange (and a 6th level Contingency slot) just to give yourself Haste? Bizarre.

And then you waste your 7th and 8th level spell slots plane shifting to/from a demiplane. At this point we CLEARLY are no longer talking about a sustainable strategy--this is pure nova stuff now.


Enlarge could easily be achieved with two Simulacrums and the same principle, by simply having a Simulacrum create another Simulacrum.

Oh, goody, so now you need two epic boons, since your Simulacrum now has to spend two 7th, one 8th, and two 9th level slots in order for your scenario to work. Why not just give it up and start chain-wishing for infinite Simulacra? At this point, your whole strategy is based around exploiting the brokenness of Simulacrum and has really nothing to do with build optimization at all, so why not go whole hog? You could e.g. attack the Empyrean with a thousand Earth Elementals all controlled by Simulacra of yourself, all of whom are ordered to self-destruct as soon as the Temple of Hades has been eradicated.


>Anyway, it's clear that it's going to take you several rounds just to kill the Empyrean

It's rather not clear. You claim ( Which calculations are you doing by the way? ) that based on my to hit chance ( And you haven't accounted for +10 or that it is 14 ), I can do 130 DPR. So how much is it when adjusted, and then with Advantage? Seems to me more like 2-3 rounds at best to me.

Calculations: as I said before, I plug your to-hit chance (+10) and damage (13 x 2d8+9, 2x 2d10+9) into a DPR calculator (http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/) and it spits out the answer, accounting for critical hits.

avg.(13.12?2d8+9)+(2.12?2d10+9) = 130.25.

That's giving you 13 attacks due to Action Surge + Two Weapon Fighting (although I see now that is wrong--you multiattacked, you didn't Attack, so you shouldn't get a TWF attack), each of which does +5 extra damage due to your Song of Victory.

If you need me to explain the math the calculator uses I can but it's fairly trivial: compute expected value, and add extra dice of damage (ignoring static mods) times 0.05 to account for critical hits.


>but if you're saving your action surge for the Empyrean

Burrowing directly towards the Empyrean ( In order to steal it's... and GTFO ), and killing everything outside the Temple, are two different approaches.

Your objective is to loot the whole temple, not the Empyrean's apartment.


If me and my party try to kill everyone, then once that is accomplished, the Empyrean is irrelevant. He just lost all of his forces. I could take as many Long Rests as I want and then stride below to finish him.

And... there we go. Now that you're talking about MULTIPLE DAYS spent on this adventure, 23 hours a day of which are spent in vulnerable human form, it's clear that you're not able to get through the whole adventuring day on the strength of a single Shapechange the way you originally claimed. This isn't even a tough adventuring day--it's completely by the book with easy monsters straight out of the MM. The Empyrean doesn't even have any worthwhile spells and neither do the dragons.

You keep bringing in extra things like Foresight from a Simulacra, and that's fine (there are many ways to break the game using Simulacrum), but it's beside the point.


I have the most adaptable, overall powerful build in existence.

LOL. We're done here.


Before you reply though, you should first understand how does criticism of my DPR even works - Go ahead and tell me how the Sorclock or the Rogue/Ranger/Paladin freak build or even the pure Fighter fares better in your own scenario, with all of the obstacles presented by you, with all of the monster abilities, and their numbers, with all of your choices, than does my own character. If you reach the inevitable conclusion that I actually still survive and succeed better a thousand times more than everyone else, which you will if you make an honest attempt at thinking about it, then I still win in usefulness.

A bog-standard transmuter abusing Simulacrum the way you do does far better just by sending in a flood of a thousand Earth Elementals (summoned by a thousand Simulacra). If we assume the existence of a sane DM who has fixed Simulacrum to no longer be abusable (e.g. by reverting to AD&D rules, by which a Simulacrum has at best only 40-65% of the original's capabilities even after you use a Limited Wish to give it volition), the most powerful option I can think of which is still easy to use is a 20th level Necromancer who can use skeleton archers to squash flat all opposition that isn't immune to nonmagical weapons (including the beholder, which you still don't have a good answer for) while still retaining the Shapechange option for fun. (But then, "powerful" options don't necessarily make for good fun--Necromancers are so powerful they are boring. Lately I find myself more attracted to illusionists.)

No, you don't win. You're just using cheap Simulacrum-chaining exploits which every sane DM has already eliminated from their game.

[Renduaz]

Wait, so now your Simulacrum has spell slots for Foresight AND Shapechange? That requires Epic Boons. And you're wasting that Shapechange (and a 6th level Contingency slot) just to give yourself Haste? Bizarre.

And then you waste your 7th and 8th level spell slots plane shifting to/from a demiplane. At this point we CLEARLY are no longer talking about a sustainable strategy--this is pure nova stuff now.

Only if I need to reach the Empyrean first, but since you just redefined the goal as "looting everything in sight", then that approach goes into the trash, and I now need to kill everything in sight. I briefly forgot about Foresight, yet since Simulacrum takes 12 hours to create anyway and therefore have ought to been done before my long rest ( 4 hours as an Elf ), then I'll simply cast Foresight on myself before that long rest as well, which will last for an additional 4 hours upon me waking up.

Wasting "my" slots? Are you blind, friend? A demiplane once created is always there, literally at any moment in the campaign, you just need to know where it is. But forget Demiplane, since apparently your brain isn't working today, make it any other plane you wish. The Simulacrum wastes it's slot to Plane Shift there after Hasting me.



Oh, goody, so now you need two epic boons, since your Simulacrum now has to spend two 7th, one 8th, and two 9th level slots in order for your scenario to work. Why not just give it up and start chain-wishing for infinite Simulacra? At this point, your whole strategy is based around exploiting the brokenness of Simulacrum and has really nothing to do with build optimization at all, so why not go whole hog? You could e.g. attack the Empyrean with a thousand Earth Elementals all controlled by Simulacra of yourself, all of whom are ordered to self-destruct as soon as the Temple of Hades has been eradicated.

What in the ever-living **** are you smoking over there? I forgot about Foresight, but otherwise the Simulacrum spends a single 9th on Shapechanging ( Which has actually just become redundant since you stated I need to loot every single golden beam and wall in the temple and dismantle it completely, so instead it's just going to Foresight me and Plane Shift ), it's 8th level for another Simulacrum , and 7th for Plane Shift. Plane Shifting back is just for my own convenience, once everything is dead, or I'm dead, and your encounter is over. Pay attention to what you're reading.

Secondly, which part of the sentence Enlarge is completely ****ing optional and I don't even ****ing need it did you not get through your head? You do realize that in your own damage calculations, you haven't even included "Enlarge" yourself, do you? Jesus ****ing christ, what a mess.



Calculations: as I said before, I plug your to-hit chance (+10) and damage (13 x 2d8+9, 2x 2d10+9) into a DPR calculator (http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/) and it spits out the answer, accounting for critical hits.

avg.(13.12?2d8+9)+(2.12?2d10+9) = 130.25.

That's giving you 13 attacks due to Action Surge + Two Weapon Fighting (although I see now that is wrong--you multiattacked, you didn't Attack, so you shouldn't get a TWF attack), each of which does +5 extra damage due to your Song of Victory.

If you need me to explain the math the calculator uses I can but it's fairly trivial: compute expected value, and add extra dice of damage (ignoring static mods) times 0.05 to account for critical hits.



Your own calculations are wrong. I get the TWF attack from my Hasted "Attack" action, as my bonus action, not from Multiattack. And it's 14, not 13. Now, where did you input my advantage into that? Because it mysteriously doesn't seem to show, Mister.


Your objective is to loot the whole temple, not the Empyrean's apartment.

Great, Amazing, should've said so. Because by the sound of it, the Empyrean would be hoarding his wealth, not spreading it in slave cattle pens everywhere.


And... there we go. Now that you're talking about MULTIPLE DAYS spent on this adventure, 23 hours a day of which are spent in vulnerable human form, it's clear that you're not able to get through the whole adventuring day on the strength of a single Shapechange the way you originally claimed. This isn't even a tough adventuring day--it's completely by the book with easy monsters straight out of the MM. The Empyrean doesn't even have any worthwhile spells and neither do the dragons.

You keep bringing in extra things like Foresight from a Simulacra, and that's fine (there are many ways to break the game using Simulacrum), but it's beside the point.

Yeah, many ways, only available to a very high-level Wizard exclusively, just like 4 extra attacks are only available to a Fighter ( of any kind ), and that gets mentioned in Builds/DPR/Whatever-the-**** your brain wants to call it threads, including in here. What is your goddamn problem?

I am not spending "multiple days" since Simulacrums last forever, and can usually be prepared at the end of a session and before long rest for the next day, although feel free to forget about Shapechange now, and say I just Wish the Simulacrum prior to my long Rest for Haste and Foresight. 130 DPR while account for To Hit chance is still more than any other build, including unaccounted advantage which is missing from here.




LOL. We're done here.

Yes we are.


A bog-standard transmuter abusing Simulacrum the way you do does far better just by sending in a flood of a thousand Earth Elementals (summoned by a thousand Simulacra). If we assume the existence of a sane DM who has fixed Simulacrum to no longer be abusable (e.g. by reverting to AD&D rules, by which a Simulacrum has at best only 40-65% of the original's capabilities even after you use a Limited Wish to give it volition), the most powerful option I can think of which is still easy to use is a 20th level Necromancer who can use skeleton archers to squash flat all opposition that isn't immune to nonmagical weapons (including the beholder, which you still don't have a good answer for) while still retaining the Shapechange option for fun. (But then, "powerful" options don't necessarily make for good fun--Necromancers are so powerful they are boring. Lately I find myself more attracted to illusionists.)

No, you don't win. You're just using cheap Simulacrum-chaining exploits which every sane DM has already eliminated from their game.


Cool story, how does it relate to a thread about the highest DPR? And you're talking to me about summonings? You realize I excluded that for a reason, you little smartass? Oh yeah, I summon a ****load of undead myself as well with my intact spell slots ( And I can find the corpses, doesn't count as preparation! Somehow. Because it's you. ) and I have a bunch of Planar Bound creatures on the side and let's calculate everything from the start.

Lastly, I still beat the highest Sorclock/Fighter DPR without Haste, OR Enlarge, whatsoever..

"Bu-b-ub-bubub-bub-but it's just Shapechange and GWM/Dual Feats and it's only +35 damage for the Marilith from Song of Victory which I ignore because reasons, this is not a real build because reasons, even though I'm really blind and can't read the title of the thread which isn't about builds, and it's not real, and na-na-na-na because reasons" - Bu-b-bu-bub-but get out until you come up with an actual point.

[MaxWilson]

Wasting "my" slots? Are you blind, friend? A demiplane once created is always there, literally at any moment in the campaign, you just need to know where it is. But forget Demiplane, since apparently your brain isn't working today, make it any other plane you wish. The Simulacrum wastes it's slot to Plane Shift there after Hasting me.

Before hurling insults you might want to check your math. One 7th level slot goes toward plane shifting into your demiplane; the other 8th level slot goes into plane shifting back afterwards, exactly as you said you would do. I didn't charge you another 8th level slot for the Demiplane; that's obviously precast.

My brain is working just fine today, thank you.

[Renduaz]

Before hurling insults you might want to check your math. One 7th level slot goes toward plane shifting into your demiplane; the other 8th level slot goes into plane shifting back afterwards, exactly as you said you would do. I didn't charge you another 8th level slot for the Demiplane; that's obviously precast.

My brain is working just fine today, thank you.

If so then that slot is completely irrelevant to your scenario. I just threw it out there, that even after being Hasted and safely tucking away my Simulacrum, I could even recall it later on. At any rate, rather than "LOL we're done here", my build seems to work pretty much as intended. I can even exchange Plane Shift for the Rope Trick to maintain the Simulacrum's safety should I want to. Unhasted, Unenlarged, I do ( Without to-hit ) 128 damage per turn ( average of 6d8+9 and 2d10+9 ) as opposed to 164 with Haste only ( More than the similar calculation for other builds ). More than the pure level 20 fighter, more than any other build, slightly less than the Sorclock ( Which wastes sorcery points on every turn ) and is otherwise not a very adaptable build. Even though my Simulacrum has all the Hastes in the world.

And I was not the one who hurled insults.

[Asmotherion]

Sorcerer warlock

Quicken eldritch blast and then twin firebolt

Pretty consistent with pact magic and their short rest recharge

Also a battlemaster with sharp shooter, with 2 levels of rogue for cunning action to hide as bonus action after bow shots and maybe war cleric for divine favor could be pretty consistent. Sharp shooter, precision and advantage

I find this or a Simple Quickened Eldritch Blast + Eldritch Blast Quite Satisfying as DPR, and frankly, other than Hex, Fueling Metamagic through Spell Slots, and Shield, I only ever Cast Spells for RP reasons, never because I really needed to.

Then, you have Warlock Tome Pact for Shillelagh, then Booming Blade, and Quicken for Green-Flame (Or a couple of Green-Flames to add your Cha as Fire Damage, but the Secondary effect of Booming triggers quite easily). It makes you quite good at melee, and with Shield, you will have good semi-consistant AC as well. Virtually, it's like having a more consistent, yet less powerfull Divine Smite than the Paladin Twice per round.

Fighters (and my favorites, because of magic, are Eldritch Knights) break their Damage pretty easily. Hand Crossbow Archers with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter do Wonders with their Dpr. Two Weapon Fighters don't Fall Far behind either, by my calculations.

A Rogue Arcane Trickster with Booming Blade who knows how to set up his trick, can do a decent amound of DPR.

A Sorcerer Warlock (as described above with pact of the tome for shillelagh, and scag cantrips) plus a minimum of 2 Paladin levels I think takes the Cup of this. Not only does he do all the above, but he has enough spell slots to Divine smite on top of it, and call those Divine Smites Consistant Damage. The only downside to it is a slower development, and the fact that your sorcerer will never cast 9th level Spells.

[minemeer]

So my build is high burst dps the build is highly versatile and really doesn’t have many required stats it’s all preference the only things required are oathbreaker paladin 7 and some method of attacking as a bonus action I run polarm master and GWM on my build with a level of barb and variant human this results in if you have 20 str and char at level 8 guaranteed damage of 22 each hit 3 attacks per turn 66 damage 2d10 1d4 +66 plus smite for a minimum 6d8 bonus damage that’s at level 8 the rest of the build is up to you I went warlock 10 after this and went celestial so when I smite I deal an extra 5 guaranteed damage making my guaranteed damage 27 per hit 27*3= 81 guaranteed damage as well as 3 5’th level smites per day there are more effective builds than this this is just how I decided to make mine you can go cleric for more slots and go war cleric for bonus action attack greatsword instead of a polarm for higher average damage on the die or go wizard for versatile spells like shield and misty step I’ve had this character get upwards of 200 damage using first level smites at level 15 fighting undead this specific case was paladin 11 barb 3 and cleric 1 I had a bard that had cast faerie fire on the target with them being undead and having a guaranteed extra 1d8 each attack against the vampire did 2d6+ 4d8+ 1d4+25 ( I had a +3 weapon) adding up to 6d6+12d8 +3d4 + 75 also in that campaign vampires were weak to radiant and I also critted one hit so we’re actually looking at in this sprecific case 6d6+ 16d8*2 + 3d4*2 +75 I did some quick math the average damage here is roughly 250 damage without vulnerability it’s more or less 150. I also could’ve smited with a higher level slot up to 3rd I believe for an extra 2-4 d8 depending on if used on a crit or not so depending on the situation and campaign this build has the potential to roll everything I 1v1 and defeated a terrasque with this build before

[KorvinStarmast]

wall of text carriage returns and use of paragraphs are your friends.