Some high epic rules adjustment thoughts

[Melcar]

Hi guys…

I have been looking at some high epic rules. It seems to me, that spell DCs and enemy saving throws do no increase at the same rate. Which mean the higher level the less change the mage has to apply his or her spells. Granted, there are epic spell, but this is about normal spellcasting so for now, let’s assume no epic spellcasting.

If we take a level 100 human wizard (no cheese), what is the highest possible base dc we can get that character to?

A quick attempt would be: 18 int, +5 tome, +25 level, +3 age, +2 human paragon class, +2 lich transformation, +10 demi lich transformation, +30 for headband of epic intellect = 95. Which would give a base DC of 52 (+1 for neither scrolls), for a total of 53. Then one could add epic spell focus for another 3, so let’s say 56.

A level 100 fighter would have +52 (46 for reflex and will) base fortitude save. Adding just a +10 ability modifier and a +10 cloak of resistance we far exceed the spell DC of the mage. And considering +10 to be low enchants for a level 100 and far inferior to the items the mage received, there seem to be some disharmony.

First off, am I missing something in terms of the spell DC, that would make it higher than the 56 I have reached now?
Secondly, how do we get the spell DC to mirror up the saves, so that there might be around a 50/50 chance of getting a spell through a save? I have chosen the 50% success change as appropriate because I consider that number of saving change fair. Often with spells, there are ranged touch attack needed as well as spell resistance one needs to get through, so 50% change of saving is fair I think.

Now considering level 1-9 spells I want the 50% to land in the middle. That way there are a little less chance for saving against the high level spells but higher change against low level.

So in summery how do we get the mage to have a high enough spell dc to have a 50% change of getting a level 5 spell (DC 61 in the above mage example) on a level 100 fighter?

Thanks

[Karl Aegis]

Heighten Spell. Cast out of your 25th level slots or something.

[zlefin]

The game simply doesn't work well at high epic; a LOT of things breakdown.
note that even without cheese, the epic feats for casters are way better than those for martials, so I wouldn't worry too much about the casters.
a level 100 wizard could have taken improved heighten spell, and improved spell capacity x50; so he'd hvae level 60 spell slots, which adds another +50 to the DC.
this isn't the same as epic spellcasting; it's just regular spellcasting in ever-higher level slots.
when you have level 60 spell slots, you don't need your level 5 spells to hit, you have a vast array of other spell levels available to use.

that said, it is true that the saves often scale faster than the DCs; it gets more problematic at higher optimization levels (that is the saves scale even faster as people start dipping more classes that add stat bonuses to various saves). To some extnet you simply want ot rely less on save-dependent spells; and focus on ones that have no save, or a decent effect even vs a successful save.

[Eldariel]

Mostly irrelevant. It's a completely different game at level 21. Your normal spells aren't meant to affect level 100s - by all rights level 20s should already have immunities to most things offering save negating the need to roll. Thus it's a matter of finding weaknesses or creating those rather than numbers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, to start with, yes, high epic is totally broken, and (not having played there, so I'm guessing) pretty damn boring. There's no content at that level, since all epic feats and combos are available in the high twenties/low thirties (highest requirement on any feat is 30 skill ranks).

If we did care to build one, a level 100 wizard will have reduced his metamagic costs to 1 or 0, has more layers of buff spells than Jupiter has of clouds, and can cast about a dozen spells per round. You don't have to punch through a fighter's saves, you have to find out which combination of a dozen spells will disable their magical protection, then hit them with some no-save KO.

[Melcar]

First off thanks for answering.

Secondly.. I agree on the fact that one would have a lot of immunities ass soon as you hit mid 20s... and that the WBL becomes so crazy that 20+ enchant bonuses becomes pretty crazy. Crazy upon crazy... What my post was to do, was to maybe think about how and what could be done to rectify this.

Reason: I like to play high level, but I don't use that much of the OP epic stuff. I have a level 31 character, but I dont use epic spells. And although I have 4 epic feats, they have not toppled the game from the fun or the battles I had at level 17-20...

We do play a low to medium optimizations level. That's the way we feel is fun! Anyways I was thinking that there might be a way we can make it so, that save DC might fit the save... So this is an attempt (even though there are many better/ more optimized way of playing.

One suggestion of this was to say that base save DC increases 1 per 4 level above level 20. That way the mage example I made would have 76 in base save... thus ca 50% chance of getting a spell through the fighters save... So if we look past the obvious more practical/ optimized ways you suggested how would we remedy the issue of non-scaling spell DC and saves?

Thanks again!

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could counter magic with magic. Create epic items that offer scaling save DC bonuses.

You could empower the Epic Spell Focus feat, allowing it to be taken multiple times.

You could create a super-Heighten, that increases the save DC of the modified spell by 2 for every extra spell slot level used to cast it.

You could reduce epic progressions after level 30. For example, at 21-30, you use the current progression (1/2 level to bab/saves). At 31-45, you use 1/3 level to bab/saves. At 46-65, you use 1/4 level to bab/saves. At 66-100, you use 1/5 level to bab saves. And so on at 101+. With those rules, an ECL 100 character would have an epic bab/save bonus of 20 instead of 40.

[Melcar]

You could counter magic with magic. Create epic items that offer scaling save DC bonuses.

You could empower the Epic Spell Focus feat, allowing it to be taken multiple times.

You could create a super-Heighten, that increases the save DC of the modified spell by 2 for every extra spell slot level used to cast it.

You could reduce epic progressions after level 30. For example, at 21-30, you use the current progression (1/2 level to bab/saves). At 31-45, you use 1/3 level to bab/saves. At 46-65, you use 1/4 level to bab/saves. At 66-100, you use 1/5 level to bab saves. And so on at 101+. With those rules, an ECL 100 character would have an epic bab/save bonus of 20 instead of 40.

That is some nice ideas... I will be looking into those as I go along!