View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The Veteran-5E Hypermundane

2017-09-04, 11:42 AM
Stolen shamelessly (and with permission) from Jor's awesome Hypermundane project. Specifically, the Veteran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29), in this case.

Hit Dice: 2d8
Hit Points at 1st Level: 16+Constitution Modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 9 (2d8)+Constitution Modifier

Armor: All that ever was, is, or will be
Weapons: All that ever was, is, or will be
Tools: All that ever was, is, or will be-except magical tools

Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom
Skills: Any five

You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
-Any three weapons (and 50 pieces of ammo, if appropriate)
-Any suit of armor
-Any pack

The Veteran

Proficiency Bonus

Resilience, Righteous Desperation, Veteran Tricks

Fighting Styles

Archetype, Extra Attack

Ability Score Improvement

Extra Attack (2)

Ability Score Improvement

Archetype Feature

Ability Score Improvement

Overcome Wounds

Ability Score Improvement

Extra Attack (3)

Ability Score Improvement

Archetype Feature

Ability Score Improvement

Extra Attack (4)

Ability Score Improvement

Archetype Feature

Ability Score Improvement

Extra Attack (5)

Ability Score Improvement

Resilience-A Veteran is impossibly tough. Reduce all damage taken by an amount equal to your Veteran level.

Righteous Desperation-Veterans are masters of improvisation, of getting by, of making do with what they have, and this stems from their conviction, their vow never to use magic. Such is the way of the veteran.

As an action, a Veteran can find an improvised weapon suitable for a real fight. This can be any weapon (and a number of pieces of ammo, as appropriate), but it will only last in a real fight a number of uses equal to the Investigate DC the Veteran met as part of this action. The Veteran can also find armor or shields as appropriate, donning them as part of the action used to search for them. They will last a number of turns in a real fight equal to the Investigate DC.

A Veteran is also immune to the Frightened condition, and halves the number of Exhaustion levels they have on them (rounding down-so one level does nothing, two would inflict the penalties of a single level, and 12 levels are needed to kill a Veteran).

As part of this, though, they must never willingly use magic items, spells, or anything of the sort. If they do so, they immediately lose all Veteran abilities and halve their HP. They must spend at least a week adventuring without the use of any magic to regain their abilities.

Veteran Tricks-At level one and each level thereafter, a Veteran gains a number of tricks, as shown on the table. These tricks are listed below. They may switch a number of tricks equal to their proficiency bonus on a short rest, and all tricks on a long rest.

Fighting Styles-At level two, the Veteran learns any two fighting styles.

Extra Attack-At levels three, five, eleven, fifteen, and nineteen, the Veteran gains an Extra Attack, to a max of six per attack action.

Archetype-At level three, the Veteran chooses whether to be a Commander or a Soldier. Features are gained at levels seven, thirteen, and seventeen.

Ability Score Improvement-At four and every even level thereafter.

Overcome Wounds-At level nine, a Veteran becomes nigh-impossible to put down. They regain a number of hit points at the start of their turn equal to their proficiency bonus-even if they are at zero HP. This means that, typically, the only way to kill a Veteran is to hit them a lot while they're still down.



3-You may Help as a bonus action, at a range of 30'.





3-You deal an extra die of damage with all weapons. Gain one Action Surge per short rest.

7-Increase your AC by 2. Gain two Action Surges per short rest.

13-You score a critical on a roll of 18-20, and deal triple damage rather than double on a critical. Gain three Action Surges per short rest.

17-You deal three extra dice of damage with all weapons. Gain four Action Surges per short rest.


Scars Of War-Add your Constitution modifier to your Armor Class.

Feat-Requires level 3 or greater. Gain any feat.

Magic Resistance-You have advantage on all saving throws against magic spells or effects.

Always Strike First-You act in the surprise round, always. In addition, you always count as having rolled a 20 for your initiative.

Animal Companion-You gain a loyal animal, who serves you to the end. This companion's CR is equal to or lower than your proficiency bonus, but their HP is equal to five times your Veteran levels, and they add your proficiency bonus to all their saves, their AC, their attack bonus, their damage, and any save DCs they have.

Armour Master-You take no penalties for wearing armour, no matter what.

Battlesense-You have blindsight out to 30'. This trick can be taken multiple times, and if so, the range increases by 30' each time.

Counterattack-Requires level 6. As a reaction, you may block any attack (causing it to miss or you to automatically pass its save) and immediately counterattack, maing a single attack against the attacker. You do not HAVE to make this attack-you can merely block the attack and choose not to respond in turn.

Flying Machine-Requires level 5. You create a contraption that allows for flight. This takes one hour and 100 GP to create, and can be folded into pocket size in three rounds, or unfolded to Large size in the same time. While using this machine, you have a fly speed equal to your land speed-however, if you are struck while flying, you must make a Concentration save (using Strength instead of Constitution, though) or lose control, falling 30' on your next turn.

Death Mark-Every time you strike an enemy successfully, you reduce their AC by 2. This stacks with itself, but can be removed by spending three rounds or more resting.

Disappearance-You can hide even while being observed, and may hide as a bonus action.

Escape Death-Requires level 9. If you're killed, you turn out not to be dead 3d6 minutes later. You wake up with 1 hit point, though your healing will quickly give you more. If you die three times before taking a long rest, your body finally gives up, and you die for real.

Great Reach-You can make attacks 5' further away in either direction-for instance, you can make attacks up to 15' away and at 5' away with a lance without disadvantage.

Headslam-As an action, you make a single attack, targeting the foe's head (or other thinking apparatus). If the Headslam hits, it is automatically a critical hit, and the target loses one use of every magical ability it has, as well as one spell slot of each level.

Incorporeal Bane-Your attacks strike incorporeal and ethereal creatures normally.

Instant Identify-You can instantly identify any item you see, determining its uses, charges remaining, and any other relevant details.

Iron Mind-You are immune to any magic that would affect your mind. You do not show up in any divinations, and divinations can learn nothing about you.

Jump Master-You never take fall damage.

Leopard Sprint-Requires Sudden Movement. As an action, you can sprint 10X your normal movement.

Martial Artist-You gain the Martial Arts ability, Ki, and Flurry Of Blows as a Monk of your level. You also add your Wisdom to your AC. Note that you can use Martial Arts and Flurry Of Blows when attacking with your main action with any weapon, though your bonus action strike must be made with your fists.

Mettle-You never take damage or effects on a successful save.

Mortal Wound-Your attacks always do full damage, regardless of resistance, immunity, or any other effects. In addition, any damage you do can ONLY be healed by natural rest. Note that this does not stop your attacks from just plain missing.

Perfect Aim-You ignore half and three fourths cover.

Skilled-You gain a +1 bonus to all skill checks, and gain proficiency in one skill you do not have proficiency in. Alternatively, you gain the +1 bonus and Expertise in one skill you are already proficient in. This can be taken multiple times.

Sneak Attacker-You gain Sneak Attack as a Rogue of your level. You can Sneak Attack with any weapon as well.

Sudden Movement-You land speed doubles. You can move half your speed as a reaction to anything.

Swimmer-You gain a swim speed equal to your land speed, and can hold your breath ten times as long as usual.

Terrain Master-Terrain never slows you down.

Terrifying Presence-Enemies within 120' take half your proficiency bonus as a penalty on all d20 rolls, and your proficiency bonus as a penalty on all damage rolls. Note that, despite the name, this is NOT the same as Frightened, and creatures immune to that are not immune to this.

The Speed Of Light-Requires The Speed Of Sound and level 13. You gain an extra bonus action every round.

The Speed Of Sound-Requires level 11. You gain an extra reaction every round.

FTL-Requires The Speed Of Light and level 16. You gain an extra action every round.

Untouchable-You may reroll any saves you make, once per save. You may also force an enemy to reroll their attacks, once per attack. The second result must be accepted, even if it's worse than the first.

Elusive-Requires Untouchable. Gain the Rogue's Elusive feature.

Wingclip-Any time your attack damages a flying creature (even magically flying ones) they are prevented from flying for a number of rounds equal to your proficiency bonus, and if they are airborne, they immediately fall.

Weapon Master-You gain Expertise in all weapons.

Sariel Vailo
2017-09-04, 12:03 PM
I like this class but what does tbd mean

2017-09-04, 12:14 PM
To Be Determined.

Also, be aware-this is not meant as a well balanced class. This is the prototype for a potential, higher powered system rewrite I might do. Even then, it's likely far too high powered for that.

2017-09-04, 04:09 PM
To Be Determined.

Also, be aware-this is not meant as a well balanced class. This is the prototype for a potential, higher powered system rewrite I might do. Even then, it's likely far too high powered for that.

Power aside, at high level this class has enough tricks that it gets completely unwieldy - there's no reason to have 40+ passive abilities, particularly when ability combinations can easily lead to routinely throwing four dice on a great many saves or otherwise slowing the game.

2017-09-04, 05:54 PM
Yeah... this isn't a very good idea. And I'm not just saying this because I think the Hypermundanes are kinda dumb and self-indulgent.

The problem is that you're taking a class concept designed for a game where magic items flow like water and are pretty much required to keep up, and dropping it with minimal edits into 5e, where magic items are gravy. It goes from "this is a pretty massive bonus, but there's a pretty big drawback involved" to "this is a massive bonus, and the drawback is inconsequential".

Heck, with the current wording, Righteous Desperation doesn't prevent you from benefiting from spells cast on you. It also makes just as little sense as it did back in 3.5 - why does drinking a potion make my flying machine fall apart?

But seriously, this is pure Lightning Warrior territory... except it isn't a parody.

2017-09-08, 07:22 PM
But seriously, this is pure Lightning Warrior territory... except it isn't a parody.

That's not necessarily a problem if it's part of several classes deliberately built as a separate baseline that fully replace existing classes (much like Gnorman's e6 project). The ridiculous number of tricks still is, particularly given that there were much fewer in the 3.x veteran, plus bonuses every level other than tricks which weren't there in 3.x.

2017-09-09, 07:44 PM
Also, be aware-this is not meant as a well balanced class. This is the prototype for a potential, higher powered system rewrite I might do.

Have you tried not playing 5e?

Okay, let's go through. For a start, not even the 3.5 veteran got more attacks than a fighter without paying for the extra attacks in tricks. But that's not the point: the point is that this breaks a lot of design principles of 5e. The 3.5 Veteran broke a lot of design ideas of 3.5 but that's because it accomodated how 3.5 turned out, not how it was designed.

For example, bounded accuracy. 3.5 doesn't have bounded accuracy, so it's okay if I say that you knock two AC off everyone you hit because it's expected that the numbers will fall onto and off the scale at varying points and it's completely okay if I end up hitting the same person on a 20 and on a 2 in the same combat. In 5e, bounded accuracy does exist, so you need to either take it off responsibly (which involves everyone having bigger proficiency bonuses and adding part of their proficiency bonus to their AC, say).

You say "This is part of a high-power system rewrite". What I hear is "I want to make a clone of my favourite 3.5 class in 5e" while forgetting that 3.5 is higher power than 5e to the point where the truenamer is totally OP in 5e without some modification, as I found out when I tried to convert it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495113-The-Truenamer-(3-5-to-5-conversion-PEACH)). If you want to play high-powered 5e, why in Mystra's name are you not playing 3.5 instead?

Of course, the fact that you butchered many of the tricks hasn't gone unnoticed - obviously you did this in such a rush that jump master no longer makes you good at jumping anywhere except off a cliff, for example, and Leopard Sprint is named specifically after the fact that leopards can sprint very fast for very short lengths of time, but of course you can now do it every round because reasons. A lot of the way the tricks are written seems exceptionally rushed and informal and generally plain naff - the sentence structure seems to be as though you threw your fingers at the keyboard as fast as you could get all the information down.

3.5's veteran was designed to address the horrific disparity between nonmagical and magical characters in 3.5. In 3.5, a veteran had a much higher floor than a wizard but had trouble keeping up with them at high optimisation levels. In 5e, a veteran will find the wizard, stomp on his face, and then be up for another few encounters today. If you want a wizard to compete, they're going to have to have spells taken over from 3.5 at which point remind me why you're not just playing 3.5 again?

Because, let's face it, 5e already has a veteran-equivalent which can fight off a wizard at low optimisation but struggles to keep up when the wizard starts whipping out a bit of the old phenomenal cosmic power. It's called the fighter.

5e doesn't need a veteran because it doesn't have a wizard; it has an adept on an ego trip. If you're gonna try to rewrite 5e's power level to fit 3.5's, then you're going to have to rewrite the entire game, not just the fighter.

2017-09-10, 12:49 PM
Jormengand's words are harsh, but I must agree.

I understand the appeal of high-powered characters, but this class puts Xefas' Swordbearer to shame. I'm all for flexible realism, but the power curve is so steep that it defies all attempts at comprehension or belief. It may be named a hypermundane, but its features are so arbitrarily powerful that it's indistinguishable from magic.

The big question is, why would you inflate the powerlevel to such a degree? You can achieve the feeling of a high-powered game without going this far, and then at least your game would retain a sense of grounding, and the creatures in the monster manual would still be reasonably usable. Again, see Xefas' Swordbearer.

The main thing that ticks me off about this class is that it seems purposely disrespectful to existing classes. It can get the bulk of the rogue, monk and ranger's class features at a cost of one or two tricks each, and it's usually a better version of those features too. This made sense in Jormengand's version because all those classes were weak in 3.5, so they had to be usurped into something vastly superior in order to compete with casters. But there was never a need for that in 5e, not to such a degree at least. This class seems designed to do everything better than anyone, which is going to make it really hard to make other equally-powerful classes.

Lastly, it runs roughshod over many of the mechanics that add depth or nuance to the game. Can't be surprised, ignores invisibility, can hide anywhere, ignores incorporeality, immune to mind-affecting effects, immune to divination, immune to falling damage, ignores resistance and healing, ignores all cover, ignores all terrain, immune to attacks with advantage, and immune to being killed by anyone who doesn't coup de grace you. Admittedly it would take a long time to amass all of these, but once you do there's hardly anything left of the game but pointing at a target and rolling dice, because your character ignores pretty much everything that would make for an interesting complication.

The class can be salvaged, but I would recommend you to think closely on the purpose of each class feature, and about how much power is too much. After all, adding basically anything they could think of is how WoTC created the god wizard in the first place.