Assorted 3.5 Psionic, Mind Flayer, and Epic questions

[Tyrant]

I have a few somewhat unrelated questions for anyone that can help. I didn't want to clutter things with 3 different threads so they are all here. I will also link to a previous question that I had about a Psionic item in case this question attracts someone that can help with it.

Torc of Power Preservation. This would apply to either version of it. It says that it reduces the standard cost of using a power by 1 point, minimum 1. Does this mean that it reduces the cost before any additional points are put into it to modify it? As in, a first level power sees no real benefit as the cost can't be reduced below 1? Also, does this effectively increase the number of power points you can spend on a power by 1? As in, if my Manifester Level is 6 and if I manifest a second level power and add 4 points to somehow modify it, does the cost reduce to 5 and I can in fact add 5 points raising it to 7 (which is now 6 thanks to the reduction)?

Mind Flayers and Voidminds. Is there any indication of how long it takes to make a Voidmind? What is the distance where they can still be controlled by their creators? The MM3 entry mentions them moving beyond that range but I don't see where that range is actually clarified.

The Voidmind also mentions the controlling Illithids being able to use their Psionic abilities through the Voidmind creature. Is this strictly their native Psionic abilities or is this any Psionic powers they have (such as through Psionic class levels)?

Epic Feats. Do you use a character's actual level or their ECL for determining eligibility of Epic Feats (and any other benefits I guess)? Like is you have a creature with an ECL over 20 but less than 20 Class Levels. Does anything Epic apply to it or only after it has 20 actual Class Levels?

Old questions about Mind Seed Pearls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534691-Mind-Seed-Pearl-question) If you have anything on this one please respond here.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[The Viscount]

The Pearl of Mind Seed is a simple enough question. The target only receives one save. The DC 22 will save presented is derived from the base formula for casting the power, assuming a 15th level manifester with an 18 in the relevant ability score. That one save the target receives is the save against Mind Seed. It's the same as if you used a dorje.
The second question can be answered again, using an important line from the item's description: "The target is affected as if by a mind seed power, with the pearl’s wielder acting as the manifester."
This means that the game will treat it as if you manifested the power. So using mind seed before this finishes germinating either from your own powers or with another pearl would be treated the same, and end the effect on the first target.

As for the Torc, the poor wording is the cause for confusion here. When manifesting a power, you apply cost reducers after you've done everything else. It means that it does nothing to 1st level powers unless you augment them. In the case you used, a 2nd level power costs 3 pp to manifest. Thus the character could spend 3 points to augment it, hitting the cap for augmentation, and then the cost would be reduced to 5 points. I don't have a rule to refer you to, but a simple statement like this keeps things balanced. If it applied to the base cost before augmentation, it would allow you to spend 4 points augmenting, effectively giving you the next level's augment. It matters especially for powers that have costly augments for large leaps, like psionic charm or ego whip.

They describe the process of creating a Voidmind creature as just eating the brain, pouring in the goo, and plugging the holes, so the process seems fairly quick overall. Assuming they have the resources prepared, I'd say an hour or so. The range of mind flayers control is given in "Mind Flayer Host" as 5 miles. Because the description calls out their "innate psionic abilities" this refers to their racial psionics.

For the purpose of qualifying as epic, ECL of 21 or more is sufficient. However, many epic feats have requirements such as skill ranks that are only possible with having more than 20 hd, so your selection is limited.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I personally rule that a torc of power preservation, like similar effects, allows you to augment further than your ML would allow. The reason is simple: the rule limiting augments talks about spending PP, not augmenting to a certain level. You don't check whether you meet the limit until you have calculated the final pp cost. The torc cuts down on spending, et voilà.

When it comes to qualifying for epic feats, it's fairly straightforward: you get your first one at 21 HD, or whenever your class would grant one, whichever comes first (hint: it's 21 HD). ECL is not sufficient; you need real CL.

[Tyrant]

Thanks for the replies. I have another Epic related question. What about BAB and Saves? Do they progress normally until above level or do they start using Epic progression before that point if you exceed 20 HD?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Thanks for the replies. I have another Epic related question. What about BAB and Saves? Do they progress normally until above level or do they start using Epic progression before that point if you exceed 20 HD?
Based on character level (HD), except that RHD always carry their relevant bab/saves. (I think.)

Monsters keep their full base attack past 20 RHD, but if I'm reading this right, a tarrasque taking fighter levels gets epic bab/saves.

Which kind of makes you wonder why epic dragon PrCs have a chassis at all, but okay.

[ShurikVch]

Epic feat access: from the 210000 xp (HD or LA - doesn't matter)

You start to use [epic] BAB and Save progression from the 21st level, unless it's by racial HD (they're, apparently, doesn't work by Epic rules), or some Dragon PrC (they're, apparently, have their own progressions)

[Tyrant]

Just to make sure I understand, if a character has 12 RHD and 8 Class Levels when they take their 9th Class Level they will qualify for Epic Feats but Epic Saves and BAB don't kick in until actual level 21?

Also I have a few more Mind Flayer/Void mind questions.

1) Is the Voidmind still the same person? I know their brain is mostly devoured but the write up says their thinking ability actually improves (which to me means improves over what it was which is probably only relevant if they are still themselves). The description doesn't say they die or lose memories, though I suppose they may have considered that obvious with the brain eating part.

2) If it is the same person, could a Mind Flayer (with 2 others for help) use Mind Seed on someone and then transform them into a Voidmind to create a loyal copy of themselves (at the lower power level caused by Mind Seed)?

3) Can Mind Flayers generally be counted on to uphold an agreement? For instance, if 3 Mind Flayers agree to help one another make some Voidminds to split up between the 3 of them. If they each agree to not interfere with the Voidminds of the other 2 can each one be reasonably sure that the other 2 won't try to take control of any beyond their's?

4) Could a Mind Flayer be turned into a Voidmind? If so, could it then be used as 1 of the 3 required to create more?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Just to make sure I understand, if a character has 12 RHD and 8 Class Levels when they take their 9th Class Level they will qualify for Epic Feats but Epic Saves and BAB don't kick in until actual level 21?
No? Class level 21 means nothing, it's all character level/HD-based. At 21 total HD, you have a character level of 21, you get an epic feat, and you start using epic saves/bab on your class levels.

If your example was a dragon, and gained another age category, it'd go up to 15 RHD/9 class levels, giving it another epic feat. It would get the full benefits from its new RHD, including base attack/saves. Whether that means it loses the benefits from its last three class HD... I have no idea. I'd say no, but that'd get some odd results. Epic rules don't seem to work so well with RHD in the picture.

[DrKerosene]

3) Can Mind Flayers generally be counted on to uphold an agreement? For instance, if 3 Mind Flayers agree to help one another make some Voidminds to split up between the 3 of them. If they each agree to not interfere with the Voidminds of the other 2 can each one be reasonably sure that the other 2 won't try to take control of any beyond their's?
With other Mindflayers in the same Elder Brain Community? Yes.

Will free, in the "wild", and elder-brain-less? Probably, assuming no extraneous circumstance.

With Drow, or other races? Only as long as it is somehow convenient.

Mindflayers of Thoon? I'm not so sure.

Lords of Madness explains illithid communities use emotion-affecting spheres to help condition (brainwash?) newly transformed illithids. Also, the Elder Brain probably does all sorts of mind-reading, memory-editing, and other such psionics things to make illithid communities how they see fit.


4) Could a Mind Flayer be turned into a Voidmind? If so, could it then be used as 1 of the 3 required to create more?

I believe such a pyramid scheme should work, technically mechanically.

[Tyrant]

No? Class level 21 means nothing, it's all character level/HD-based. At 21 total HD, you have a character level of 21, you get an epic feat, and you start using epic saves/bab on your class levels.

If your example was a dragon, and gained another age category, it'd go up to 15 RHD/9 class levels, giving it another epic feat. It would get the full benefits from its new RHD, including base attack/saves. Whether that means it loses the benefits from its last three class HD... I have no idea. I'd say no, but that'd get some odd results. Epic rules don't seem to work so well with RHD in the picture.
Okay I believe I have it now. So now a follow up question. Is there any reason to hold off jumping to Epic Feats and Attack/Save progression if the character got there via some number of RHD and not purely Class Levels?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Okay I believe I have it now. So now a follow up question. Is there any reason to hold off jumping to Epic Feats and Attack/Save progression if the character got there via some number of RHD and not purely Class Levels?
Nope, don't hold off, go for the epic feats! Creatures of 21+ RHD get epic feats, and in fact, that's a common way of improving the tarrasque.

[Tyrant]

On the topic of Voidminds, could an Illithid make a pair of similacrums of himself to act as the other 2 Illithids?

[Tyrant]

I have an Illithid lore question if anyone can help. I thought I remembered reading that they keep slaves/thralls of notable psionic talent and train/enslave them to serve their purposes. I thought it mentioned that they try to use belief in the Illithid god as one tool for keeping them in line. Now I can't find where I read that and I am starting to wonder if I am not mistaking them for something else like the Yuan-Ti.

I have looked through Lords of Madness and I don't see it in there. Does anyone have any idea where that might be or if it's another race I am thinking of?

[The Viscount]

If it's an illithid god, that probably means it's Thoon. Thoon is some weird deity that only a faction of Illithids worship, the information about them is about 20 pages of MMV.

[Tyrant]

If it's an illithid god, that probably means it's Thoon. Thoon is some weird deity that only a faction of Illithids worship, the information about them is about 20 pages of MMV.
I think it is their main deity, Ilsensine. That is assuming I am remembering it correctly as I still can't find it after looking through all of the books I would think it would be in.

[Remuko]

I don't have and haven't seen the 3.5 update for the epic level handbook but in the original copy it says monsters keep following standard progression until/unless they take a class level, then they use epic progression (not sure how the dragon classes interact, specific trumping general i guess?). Also the Epic level handbook definitely shows things below 21 levels (class/RHD) taking epic feats from being ECL 21+ even below 21 actual levels, so that's a thing.

[Telonius]

One thing on the Dragon tangent - Dragons in particular are weird since they get more Racial Hit Dice as they get older, regardless of whether or not they got class levels in the meantime. The process for PCs is described in Draconomicon pages 142-144. The tables there actually have the year-by-year breakdown. On each of the years listed (on its birthday presumably) the dragon gets a new hit die (except a couple where it doesn't, and just has its LA go up one). The hit die adds everything a Dragon hit die would usually give to a creature. It doesn't negate the bonuses given from existing class levels, just adds to them. This does mean that the Dragon's ECL is going to go up quickly, so if a dragon is going to get class levels he'd better do it quickly, and when he's young. Otherwise he's going to have to eat an awful lot of adventurers to meet the XP requirement for leveling up a class.

[Nifft]

Mindflayers of Thoon? I'm not so sure.

As with all questions about such beings, the answer is: THOON.


"Can we negotiate a mutually beneficial treaty?" -- THOON.

"How do you feel about the local pantheon?" -- THOON.

"How many fingers am I holding up?" -- THOON.

"What's your favorite color?" -- THOON.


(They might be just a tad mad.)