torn over an AT choice (Easy_Lee please chime in if you see this!)

[Chugger]

Will be starting an AT (arcane trickster) lvl 5. Want to go varHu and am pretty sure I'm going to stick w/ rogue/AT at least til he gets that mage hand bonus (adv to attack) somewhere in the teens. Maybe not multi at all (unless someone talks me out of this).

Am torn between taking a Crossbow Expertise as the varHu pick so I have a choice of shooting twice in a round, or shooting once and then taking a cunning action. The double shot option lets me land a sneak attack, if I read the rules right, if I miss my main hand attack - then my bonus action attack, if it then hits, can get in the sneak attack dice. Or, if I hit on the main hand, I can hide or dodge or w/e.

This also keeps my damage fairly high while being a sniper type and generally farther from combat/melee.

But I could go Lucky for feat and take booming blade and GFB and go more melee. I could use Lucky (or my familiar) to help me get advantage w/ my one attack. This does more damage _if_ the BB goes off or _if_ the GFB can strike a second target.

Or I could go xbow expertise and take one or both of the damage cantrips (bb and/or gfb) and be flexible. I wouldn't have Lucky but would be able to pick whether I go ranged or melee.

I just have no significant experience playing rogue and can't tell which of these options to pick. They may be so close to each other that it's hard to see a clear advantage - but if I'm missing something please tell me. Thanks much.

Oh yeah, and then there's the whole light thing. If I go bb and gfb I lose light cantrip for several levels. Til I get 4th cantrip. May not be a big deal in the campaign. But might.

[mephnick]

Or! You could take 2 wizard levels for bladesinger and take Spell Sniper for your feat. Choose whip as your bladesinger weapon and go to town. Ranged booming blade sneak attacks that save your cunning action for other things. Take Thorn Whip as your spell sniper cantrip for some battlefield control (extends it to 60 feet). Then go pure AT afterwards if you like. Extra spell slots and a bunch more known low level spells AND ritual casting. AND INT to AC.

[scalyfreak]

Are you always going to use crossbows and nothing else for your ranged attack? Just tossing that out there.

I get the impression from the tone of your post, that you're undecided what kind of rogue you want to play. Start by deciding that. Are you a sniper or a melee specialist? Are you the kind of melee specialist that kites your opponent by always taking advantage of cunning action to disengage after dealing devastating damage with your sneak attack? Are you a buffing caster or a damage dealing caster? What exactly does your arcane trickster use magic for?

Once you settle on a character concept, the feats tend to pick themselves.

[Lawful Good]

From your description, it sounds like you'd be happiest with a hybrid melee/ranged rogue. I would agree with the above posters and dip 2 Wizard. Take a couple of ranged cantrips, take Spell Sniper/X-Bow Expert, and take GFB/BB. Boom. On your turn, decide whether you want to go melee or ranged, and attack with magic accordingly (GFB or Fire Bolt or what have you).

I do like Mephnick's suggestion of using Spell Sniper to extend Thorn Whip, but it's important to remember that you CAN'T GFB or BB from range. Yes, even with a whip. You have to pick an enemy within 5 feet of you.

Hope this helps!

[Chugger]

From your description, it sounds like you'd be happiest with a hybrid melee/ranged rogue. I would agree with the above posters and dip 2 Wizard. Take a couple of ranged cantrips, take Spell Sniper/X-Bow Expert, and take GFB/BB. Boom. On your turn, decide whether you want to go melee or ranged, and attack with magic accordingly (GFB or Fire Bolt or what have you).

I do like Mephnick's suggestion of using Spell Sniper to extend Thorn Whip, but it's important to remember that you CAN'T GFB or BB from range. Yes, even with a whip. You have to pick an enemy within 5 feet of you.

Hope this helps!

Thanks much. I don't think we're allowed Bladesingers. Maybe. Will look into that but am pretty sure they're no-go.

I do want to get some of the rogue stuff asap - it's pretty good. So dips ... would be painful.

There is the lucky feat plus wiz div dip for _five_ heavy influences on die rolls per long rest - 3 rerolls and 2 pre-known rolls. That is pretty darn heavy-duty.

But xbow expertise feat w/ hand crossbow (hand xbow earlier, if I forgot that part) is sweet and can pair with SS feat and even Haste later on (I've been taught how to use haste to get 2 sneak attacks per round). With haste that would be 3 shots, and while -5 to hit is bad visaviz tough ACs, not all things have tough ACs.

Will think about thorn whip and the other advice.

But maybe what I'm having trouble getting my head around is do I want - or need - to commit to one or the other? If I get at least, say, GFB, I can do respectable melee damage w/ rapier. And I can use owl familiar to get adv if I'm not stealthed - it's much easier to stealth and shoot than to stealth, move in, and stab - the moving in part probably requires another roll and often gives you away. But I could have xbow exp. feat for fights when hand xbow is required. Normally I just know what I want - here I'm ambivalent and worried I'm failing to see something obvious.

As to dips...

Fighter is something I was thinking about dipping. At one I get +2 to hit ranged, +1 ac, or +2 damage w/ rapier and the heal. At two there is action surge. And at 3 BM. Oh, and shield with rapier, meaning ac is 12 + 5 (at 8) Dex + 2 shield + 1 (fight style) = 20 ac - which is outrageous. But ... I'm supposed to stealth, hide, sneak, cunning dodge, dodge my way out of combat damage. Should put resources into more damage, probably.

But other dips are good, too. A cleric dip does some interesting things (as I think someone mentioned). But if I'm dipping I'm doing that in the teens, most likely.

For now I'm just thinking about being happy and successful from lvl 5 to 10.

[DracoKnight]

remember that you CAN'T GFB or BB from range. Yes, even with a whip. You have to pick an enemy within 5 feet of you.

This is wrong. With the Spell Sniper feat, you absolutely CAN use GFB and BB from 10 feet away. It doubles the range of your spells, and the range of GFB/BB is 5 feet.

[Citan]

Will be starting an AT (arcane trickster) lvl 5. Want to go varHu and am pretty sure I'm going to stick w/ rogue/AT at least til he gets that mage hand bonus (adv to attack) somewhere in the teens. Maybe not multi at all (unless someone talks me out of this).

Am torn between taking a Crossbow Expertise as the varHu pick so I have a choice of shooting twice in a round, or shooting once and then taking a cunning action. The double shot option lets me land a sneak attack, if I read the rules right, if I miss my main hand attack - then my bonus action attack, if it then hits, can get in the sneak attack dice. Or, if I hit on the main hand, I can hide or dodge or w/e.

This also keeps my damage fairly high while being a sniper type and generally farther from combat/melee.

But I could go Lucky for feat and take booming blade and GFB and go more melee. I could use Lucky (or my familiar) to help me get advantage w/ my one attack. This does more damage _if_ the BB goes off or _if_ the GFB can strike a second target.

Or I could go xbow expertise and take one or both of the damage cantrips (bb and/or gfb) and be flexible. I wouldn't have Lucky but would be able to pick whether I go ranged or melee.

I just have no significant experience playing rogue and can't tell which of these options to pick. They may be so close to each other that it's hard to see a clear advantage - but if I'm missing something please tell me. Thanks much.

Oh yeah, and then there's the whole light thing. If I go bb and gfb I lose light cantrip for several levels. Til I get 4th cantrip. May not be a big deal in the campaign. But might.
Hi!

I honestly think you got the good grasp of how to go, although, if you were really adamant on going the ranged way, a Fighter dip somewhere may be worth because the Archery +2 (especially if you pick Sharpshooter).

A few notes though...
1. You cannot "Dodge" with your bonus action whatever happens, it's not in Cunning Action. And Crossbow's Expert bonus action is dependent on using the Attack action, so you cannot start with bonus action and adapt either.

2. You will have many ways to gain advantage, one of it being to Hide behind a natural cover or one made with Minor Illusion / Mold Earth, both cantrips being learnable.
Don't forget you don't need advantage either for SA if you have an ally close to target (which should happen fairly often imo).
So I'd say don't worry too much about gaining additional features related to advantage, but rather worry about to make the most of all you have already.

3. IF you want versatility (and you probably want to, in spite of being able to use crossbows in melee thanks to the feat), since you will probably get Sharpshooter somewhere along the way, you could very well dual-wield a dagger and a hand crossbow.
That way, you can...
- Still make 2 ranged attacks although at a fairly reduced range (throw dagger, use crossbow).
- And still get potential OA (draw another dagger with your free interaction).
- Or use your dagger on weapon cantrips.
I think it's really the best way to go as soon as things get hecty and you don't know what's your next turn is gonna be.
Note though that if you have both hands full, you won't be able to reload the hand crossbow so once you go gack on full ranged mode you'll have to sheathe your dagger.

4. Why ditch Light? GreenFlameBlade is honestly not worth it for you at that level, especially since you don't plan on sticking in melee. Pick Booming Blade, which is always useful for a Rogue (especially when chased by an enemy: Booming Blade as an action, Disengage as an action, move away, grin sarcastically at the enemy) even at low level. And pick Light... Although I'd say Minor Illusion is more versatile, but I understand your need to have a non-material light source. With that said, if there is someone else in party with Light you could do without. Or you could make your familiar carry a torch (it does make it a great target though ^^) ;)

Or! You could take 2 wizard levels for bladesinger and take Spell Sniper for your feat. Choose whip as your bladesinger weapon and go to town. Ranged booming blade sneak attacks that save your cunning action for other things. Take Thorn Whip as your spell sniper cantrip for some battlefield control (extends it to 60 feet). Then go pure AT afterwards if you like. Extra spell slots and a bunch more known low level spells AND ritual casting. AND INT to AC.
Guys... OP specifically told he wanted to stay single-class as most as possible?
Agreed that Wizard dip brings much to the table, but it does also delays progression, especially 2 levels.
If just going for extra cantrips, Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate is enough.
By the way, telling a Rogue to pick Thorns Whip as your feat cantrip is VERY BAD ADVICE. Thorns Whip is a Druid cantrip, so it would use WIS.
An AT usually wants to have decent to good INT for its spell, so at best the WIS score would be 12/14. Largely insufficient to make it a worthy attack.

@OP: honestly there are many many great dips to take, but Rogue is a very good class at core, bringing interesting goodies each level. So sticking with it is a very legitimate decision. I'd just consider a Fighter dip, in fact even a Fighter starting dip because...
- During the first few levels where you are the most vulnerable, you could actually wear heavy armor (loss of speed is annoying, but you will use ranged attacks and Cunning Action to compensate). And switch to medium/light once you got the hang on using hiding tactics with Minor Illusion + Cunning Action (because heavy armor obviously doesn't help with that ^^).
- You would immediately get a +2 bonus to hit with your xbow, which is ime invaluable at low level.
- You would get proficiency in Constitution saves, meaning much better chance to stick those concentration buffs (Invisibility, Blur, Haste) without having to grab Resilient or Warcaster feat (which is good, because you already want -probably- Sharpshooter, as well as bumping DEX and maybe Magic Initiate, so your ASIs are very crowded as is).

Then again, even a one-level dip will weight on your progression once you reach 7ish character level, and the primary factor in surviving is and will always be player's mind, so you can perfectly do without it if even 1 level is too much for you. ;)

EDIT: Just reread, I forgot you were "bootstrapping" the character at level 5. So, well, forget me, you can seriously do without any dip. You already get a decent amount of HP, you also get a few slots for Shield (when you are overwhelmed for whatever reason), you have Uncanny Dodge (which is a great tool for survival when dueling an enemy), you could also use a Blur once you get level 7 for improved defense. Fighter starting dip is very useful at low levels (help to hit, survivability), and at much higher levels when you start using good spells on self (Haste) or paired with Magical Ambush (Hold Person, Slow) (to keep concentration). But at higher level, you get an extra feat to spend on Resilient: Constitution (so here goes one of the big benefits of the dip), and you have enough tools to your disposal to get advantage consistently (making the +2 much less relevant -here goes the other big benefit of the dip).
Also, you get so many great features at level 9 (Magical Ambush), 11 (Reliable Talent) and 13 (Improved Mage Hand) that during these times you would feel very heavily the increased wait due to the dip.
>> Stick Rogue, at the very least until...
- You get Magical Ambush (IF someone else is the party's skillmonkey AND you don't care about using your own expertise)
- You get Reliable Talent (any other case. Reliable Talent is too great to put it aside). ;)

[Contrast]

Snip - crossbow or melee

Personally, I would pick up GFB or BB (one, not both - I recommend BB as it works well with disengaging) regardless of if you want to focus in ranged or not.

Also, I don't know if it helps with the decision but compare the feat to what you could do without it with a shortbow. Shortbow has better range (very relevant if you're not getting sharpshooter) and instead of using your bonus action to make an attack you will be hiding. Assuming you pass you get advantage (effectively two attempts to hit like the crossbow) and can shoot whoever you like with sneak attack, whereas with the crossbow you're locked into shooting someone standing next to an ally. There is a marginal upside to the crossbow in that some turns you will get three attempts to hit if you hid last turn and it isn't reliant on hiding which isn't always going to work, plus the extra plink damage from secondary hits.

I would say sharpshooter is generally more useful for a ranged character in terms of ignoring range and cover penalties. There's also an upside at low levels where the +10 can tip you over the limit to OHKO people but the -5+10 generally has some anti-synergy with the rogue. Have a chat with your DM about how they are going to rule on hiding and if they are likely to use cover bonuses much.


Oh yeah, and then there's the whole light thing. If I go bb and gfb I lose light cantrip for several levels. Til I get 4th cantrip. May not be a big deal in the campaign. But might.

Again, have a chat with your DM about how they're going to handle lighting. Generally speaking my personal approach is that if I don't have darkvision, I'm not going to try and play a stealthy character but I'm playing in a campaign at the moment where we have literally never gone anywhere dark or done anything at night so the human rogue is fine *shrugs*

[Azgeroth]

just like to point out that with Xbow expert you can melee, with a crossbow, as you ignore the disadvantage of being in melee, and can then SS the attack, and get sneak attack.

so irrelevant of if they are 5 or 120 ft away, you can still shoot ur xbow, go for SS, and sneak attack.

personally, i would take the hand crossbow, get a rapier, BB, stick with the xbow for action attacks, rapier with BB for OA's

obviously you will need to take Combat Casting for this, so it might be a later option,

assuming you take XB Expert as your lvl 1 feat, SS at level 4, then ASI for 8, Combat Casting for 10th?

or xb-e 1st, ASI 4th, CC 8th, SS 10th.. whatever floats your boat :)

[mephnick]

By the way, telling a Rogue to pick Thorns Whip as your feat cantrip is VERY BAD ADVICE. Thorns Whip is a Druid cantrip, so it would use WIS.

Eh it will be a difference of a like..2 modifier. Big deal. If you have an 8 WIS even as an AT you're doing your job wrong.

[Citan]

Eh it will be a difference of a like..2 modifier. Big deal. If you have an 8 WIS even as an AT you're doing your job wrong.
In practicality, most Rogues won't have anymore than 12 WIS at most, unless they really want to multiclass, sometimes going with just a 10 to avoid any negative stat.

Meanwhile, they will most always max DEX.
- Starting difference is at least 2 (4 IF Archery from Fighter dip), possibly 3. Ending difference is 4-5 (or 7).
- Plus it doesn't work with Sneak Attack.
- AND it's an attack, not a save, so it scales lesser as you progress.
- PLUS it doesn't even work with Magical Ambush.
- And it prevents bonus action weapon attack, and will end redundant with Sharpshooter.
- And it's only of limited utility since a Rogue can always Dash as a bonus action if range really is a problem.

So basically you are saying "grab a feat to get a good opportunity of wasting a full action trying to deal minor damage and pull (because very low chance of success) instead of doing what you are good at, which is killing quickly".

That is just real bad advice to give however way you look at it, sorry.*

If OP really wanted a pull effect, either pump WIS up to 16 (in which case might as well embrace a multiclass), or grab Lightning Lure from Wizard with Spell Sniper: that's a lame solution because range would be only 30 feet and you wouldn't deal damage, but at least you have a very high chance to apply the forced move (STR save, INT-based DC, will work with Magical Ambush).
Or pump WIS/CHA to at least 14, multiclass in a caster providing Command spell once you are char level 9 or so to apply disadvantage on save, thus ensuring a pretty decent (or high) chance of success.

Or just ask DM if he would accept STR contests based on a rope, then grab Expertise in Athletics, buy a grappling hook and Grapple the enemy from the length of the rope (I don't think it's RAW but would totally allow it up to 30 feet ;)).

* Don't misunderstand, I love Thorns Whip, and it's in the top 5 of the cantrips I recommend for many builds. It's just not good for most Rogues, because anti-synergy with all their features (high damage weapon attack, mobility, hiding), so only if very few niche cases would it be good. Pull/Push control is just not their shtick.

[Quoxis]

Or just ask DM if he would accept STR contests based on a rope, then grab Expertise in Athletics, buy a grappling hook and Grapple the enemy from the length of the rope (I don't think it's RAW but would totally allow it up to 30 feet ;)).


Yeehaw, you built a cowboy rogue, lasso-ing these herd-stealing kobolds right off their pony.

[Finieous]

I have a 9th-level variant human AT as an AL character I play with my buddies at conventions. Hard to do it wrong, but here's what he looks like:

* Magic Initiate as 1st-level feat for booming blade, light, and find familiar. From 2nd-level, I'm using owl for advantage, booming blade, and bonus action Disengage.

* Shield as out-of-school spell at 3rd level. Otherwise, mage hand, minor illusion, disguise self, silent image, etc.

* Invisibility and mirror image as in-school 2nd-level spells; misty step out-of-school at 8th level.

* Dex bumps at 4th and 8th level (to 20).

* Now that I have Magical Ambush, I'll get situational use out of offensive spells such as phantasmal force and hideous laughter.

* I got a cloak of the bat and can trade for goggles of night, so I'll probably take Skulker at 10, then max Int at 12, 16 and 19 if we keep playing in AL. Otherwise I'd just max Int first. Thus far, "light management" has been a lot of fun. I'll cast light on a ball bearing and roll it down a corridor or into a room, cast it on a seed and let my owl carry it around, or just use the owl's senses to scout ahead.

The character has great exploration skills and is lethal in combat: attack with advantage and maxed attack stat with +1 rapier for 2d8+5d6+6, then bonus action Disengage and +2d8 more if the opponent moves. The owl has gotten vaped once by an AOE in nine levels (we got a short rest I didn't need, so I was immediately able to re-summon him).

I'm a fan of the bladesinger dip, too, if it's allowed and you go elf or half-elf.

[mephnick]

.

So basically you are saying "grab a feat to get a good opportunity of wasting a full action trying to deal minor damage and pull (because very low chance of success) instead of doing what you are good at, which is killing quickly".

That is just real bad advice to give however way you look at it, sorry.*
.

No. The feat advice is to get BB and GFB on a whip. The extra cantrip choice is just gravy because you likely have BB/GFB already. I didn't say "take Spell Sniper so you can take Thorn Whip for no reason"

[Easy_Lee]

Chiming in since I was asked.

Is this an AL game or a home game? Something to consider with an AL game is that there's a possibility that you won't get a magic hand crossbow. A melee rogue has far more weapon options, and can take what's available. This tends to be less of a problem in home games.

Booming Blade / Greenflame Blade are close contenders (not quite there, but close) for damage compared to CE (unless the CE user also picks up Sharpshooter and Archery). Crossbow experts get up to two chances to land sneak attack. However, Arcane Tricksters have many ways to get advantage (Familiar, also see the level 13 feature). Having advantage on the attack means it's reasonably assured to land.

Crossbow experts have a range advantage, but melee rogues can still attack at range by using the free hand to draw and throw a dagger or dart. The damage for these is comparable on rogues, who make the best throwers due to sneak attack.

I'm in the BB/GFB with a rapier camp. The reason why is because you don't need to spend a feat to get these. In my opinion, a BB / GFB rogue with Lucky is better than a crossbow expert without Lucky. And there are plenty of good uses for your ASI as an arcane trickster. For example, ask your DM if your mage hand can use a first aid kit. If so, taking the Healer feat allows you to bring people back from unconscious to one HP at range with an infinitely repeatable bonus action.

BB vs GFB is a matter of taste. Remember that these cantrips have a verbal component. Don't use them when sneaking.

Finally, rogues shine when they get reaction attacks. Ranged rogues get fewer opportunities.

In conclusion, I'd go with GFB and Lucky.

[djreynolds]

Crossbow expert ties you to 3 weapons.

Lucky is good for attack, skills, and saves 3 times a day. It is always a great choice.

IMO unless your dexterity is 20, I would focus on maxing it out. For a rogue... attack, damage, skills, AC are all affected.

If you fight 3 times a day for 1 minute a battle. That's 30 rounds. That's +1 to hit, +1 dmg, +1 to stealth, +1 A.C.

[Chugger]

This is wrong. With the Spell Sniper feat, you absolutely CAN use GFB and BB from 10 feet away. It doubles the range of your spells, and the range of GFB/BB is 5 feet.

First, thanks much to all! Lots to go over and think about here.

As to this - is this a "hole" in the rules? If something doubles a spell's range but in this case I can't reach the target because I also need to stab it, and my rapier does not have 10' range ... ?

Okay gotta go find my phb and do some reading - gonna study these more too - thanks again!

[Contrast]

First, thanks much to all! Lots to go over and think about here.

As to this - is this a "hole" in the rules? If something doubles a spell's range but in this case I can't reach the target because I also need to stab it, and my rapier does not have 10' range ... ?

Okay gotta go find my phb and do some reading - gonna study these more too - thanks again!

Hence people discussing the whip - the only finesse weapon with reach.

[Easy_Lee]

First, thanks much to all! Lots to go over and think about here.

As to this - is this a "hole" in the rules? If something doubles a spell's range but in this case I can't reach the target because I also need to stab it, and my rapier does not have 10' range ... ?

Okay gotta go find my phb and do some reading - gonna study these more too - thanks again!

It works. A dragon sorcerer with a reach weapon and spell sniper can potentially twin it and add charisma to the damage as well for convincing AoE from a safe place. Some disagree over whether Greenflame Blade can be twinned due to the rider - the spell has a single target but can affect a second, so there's some debate.

But this isn't related to your build. Suffice it to say that if you gain proficiency with the whip and pick up spell sniper on a rogue, you can pull off this trick. However, I wonder why you wouldn't just take Mobile for effectively the same benefit.

[Chugger]

Oh, okay. Now it makes sense - I thought they were referring to Thorn Whip! hah. Man, I may never get all this data firmly loaded into my brain...

Thanks again. It's a nice trick and I'm glad I understand it.

At this point my main choice - well I can swap spells in and out, but once I pick a varHu feat it is locked in.

And yes as I think Easy pointed out (and maybe others - I'm also thinking about earlier discussions on other threads too) my lvl 4 and 8 ASIs probably really should go to getting Dex to 20.

Once that's done I could go SS at lvl 10 if I picked xbow Exp at lvl one - and I'd already have dex 20 from the earlier asi's.

I could pick up Lucky too at 10 or 12, so if I don't start with Lucky it wouldn't be forever to get it.

An interesting vector on this choice is that if I go Lucky I'm pretty much committing to melee. Sure I could take a crossbow shot instead of meleeing any time, but having that second shot in my hip pocket is very nice. And I can take it or not depending on whether I need to get those sneak attack dice rolled or not, based on first one hitting or missing (and then cunning action).

But even if I take xbow mastery I can do GFB and use my fam to get advantage - and still be pretty good at melee. But Lucky is really good ... well I got a while to choose.

Maybe I should playtest these styles just to see. Thanks again!

[Chugger]

Oh ... this probably isn't complex for some of you (for me it is) ... was totally forgetting. If I go Lucky at lvl 1 and miss with my main hand attack, I can always two weapon attack w/ a dagger in my off hand just to get another shot at landing the sneak attack dice. That leaves me in melee of course ... but it is an option.

And if I go Lucky at lvl 1 I could go xbow exp at lvl 10 and SS at 12. So there are options. Not truly locked in based on this choice.

[Citan]

And yes as I think Easy pointed out (and maybe others - I'm also thinking about earlier discussions on other threads too) my lvl 4 and 8 ASIs probably really should go to getting Dex to 20.

Once that's done I could go SS at lvl 10 if I picked xbow Exp at lvl one - and I'd already have dex 20 from the earlier asi's.

Maybe I should playtest these styles just to see. Thanks again!
Hey ;)
Truthfully, I'd say if you are set with going crossbow and potential melee weapon to go with, getting Sharpshooter earlier would be a much wiser choice.

IF, by the time you reach level 4, you find yourself often in the situation where...
- You must attack at range targeting enemies behind cover,
- You have trouble getting effective range to target enemies you want,
- You often find yourself in a tight spot because you had to come a *tad* too close to the front line...
Sharpshooter should be your priority.

Not only would it give a great damage boost when you just know you will hit, it also gives you such an increase in range (20>60, 30>120) and efficiency (ignore most covers meaning ignore -2 or -5 penalty, otherwise said much better to-hit than plain DEX bumps) that you will be much more effective whatever the situation: just keep your whip rolled up on your left thig, a cluster of daggers on your right, your bolt quiver on your back.
Start encounters with hand crossbow (you don't need to rush in anymore). When closing in, attack with crossbow then draw a dagger (if you don't know what to expect next round or want to use Booming Blade) or whip (if you want to engage at close range or if/once you get Spell Sniper).

Improved range also means that in larger areas, you can more easily find or create a safe place to pop from to attack, and much lesser distance to cover on foot (so more often, no need to use Cunning Action to Dash, meaning free bonus action for another chance to Sneak Attack thanks to Crossbow Expert). And consequently less exposure to enemy attacks in general and crowds in particular, which are deadly to Rogues, compensating far more than enough the fact you didn't improve your AC (yet).

Otherwise, you should still imo take it when getting 8th level at most, because at that time the situations described above should be getting fairly common.

[Lawful Good]

This is wrong. With the Spell Sniper feat, you absolutely CAN use GFB and BB from 10 feet away. It doubles the range of your spells, and the range of GFB/BB is 5 feet.

Thanks for the correction. Oooh, I'm totally using a whip for my AT now.


Start encounters with hand crossbow (you don't need to rush in anymore). When closing in, attack with crossbow then draw a dagger (if you don't know what to expect next round or want to use Booming Blade) or whip (if you want to engage at close range or if/once you get Spell Sniper).

This is good. In this circumstance, Spell Sniper becomes even better. With a full ranged character, having a whip+BB is a good "don't touch me" character. If they get close, whip them and run away.

[Gignere]

Oh ... this probably isn't complex for some of you (for me it is) ... was totally forgetting. If I go Lucky at lvl 1 and miss with my main hand attack, I can always two weapon attack w/ a dagger in my off hand just to get another shot at landing the sneak attack dice. That leaves me in melee of course ... but it is an option.

And if I go Lucky at lvl 1 I could go xbow exp at lvl 10 and SS at 12. So there are options. Not truly locked in based on this choice.

If you have lucky you can do the whole disadvantage cheesy crit fishing, by self imposing disadvantage (close eyes) and use lucky to roll third die and get 3 chances to roll a 20.

[Gignere]

Thanks for the correction. Oooh, I'm totally using a whip for my AT now.

Unfortunately unless you dip or burn a feat rogues doesn't get whip proficiency. It is a martial weapon.

[bid]

3. IF you want versatility (and you probably want to, in spite of being able to use crossbows in melee thanks to the feat), since you will probably get Sharpshooter somewhere along the way, you could very well dual-wield a dagger and a hand crossbow.
You need your offhand to grab ammunitions, so the dagger can't stay in hand.

[Citan]

You need your offhand to grab ammunitions, so the dagger can't stay in hand.
See the detailed post I made above (22): you just have to either draw after you attacked with the crossbow, or sheathe the dagger away at start of the next turn, or just throw it as you attack and pick another at the end of the turn (my personal choice).

Since using Booming Blade prevents you from getting a bonus action attack whatever happens, on the turn you use Booming Blade you don't care about your hand crossbow.

In any other turn, with one free interaction per turn and a thrown weapon, it's really not difficult to cope with the loading thing. Sure, there probably be a few turns in which you are bothered because the "flow" of draw/sheathe/throw is not currently in a perfect state to anticipate next turn, but honestly these should not happen often, and become fairly rare once you get the hang of it. :)

That's why I prefer the dagger to the whip, much easier to adapt tactics, whether Booming Blade is concerned or not.

@OP: while I see the value of a "Spell Sniper Booming Whip" I really think it's an overrated investment (either two feats, or Spell Sniper AND Fighter dip) for a Rogue someone that will usually stay at range in the first place, considering how many other great feats there is to get, + stats bumps. ;)
PLUS, as I said, you won't ever get a bonus action attack if you cast BB anyways, so while having a 10 reach does free your bonus action to Dash (instead of having to Disengage), again, for a "mainly ranged" character it shouldn't make a difference more than, like, 1-2 turns on a day. After all, it's the enemy coming to you because you are pesky with your arrows, not the reverse. ;)

Hence why I personally wouldn't bother, unless *maybe* if you ultimately change opinion and decide to take a starting dip into Fighter for Constitution proficiency and Archery Fighting Style.

[mephnick]

Unfortunately unless you dip or burn a feat rogues doesn't get whip proficiency. It is a martial weapon.

Which is why you take a couple levels of bladesinger, they get a martial weapon proficiency.



@OP: while I see the value of a "Spell Sniper Booming Whip" I really think it's an overrated investment (either two feats, or Spell Sniper AND Fighter dip)

Or Spell Sniper and two levels of Bladesinger (which will make you better than a straight AT in every single way).

[Gignere]

Which is why you take a couple levels of bladesinger, they get a martial weapon proficiency.



Or Spell Sniper and two levels of Bladesinger (which will make you better than a straight AT in every single way).

I think my post said unless you dip. Certainly dipping two levels of bladesinger can work for elven and half elf ATs it doesn't work for every race unless DM waives racial requirements.

[Finieous]

Or Spell Sniper and two levels of Bladesinger (which will make you better than a straight AT in every single way).

I love AT/Bladesigners, but that's overstated to the point of being flatly untrue.

[Citan]

Which is why you take a couple levels of bladesinger, they get a martial weapon proficiency.
Or Spell Sniper and two levels of Bladesinger (which will make you better than a straight AT in every single way).
Wow. Impressive. Seriously?

*Pulling back the thread (bolding the important parts for you since you apparently didn't take any time reading)...*


Will be starting an AT (arcane trickster) lvl 5. Want to go varHu and am pretty sure I'm going to stick w/ rogue/AT at least til he gets that mage hand bonus (adv to attack) somewhere in the teens. Maybe not multi at all (unless someone talks me out of this).

Am torn between taking a Crossbow Expertise as the varHu pick so I have a choice of shooting twice in a round, or shooting once and then taking a cunning action. The double shot option lets me land a sneak attack, if I read the rules right, if I miss my main hand attack - then my bonus action attack, if it then hits, can get in the sneak attack dice. Or, if I hit on the main hand, I can hide or dodge or w/e.

This also keeps my damage fairly high while being a sniper type and generally farther from combat/melee.

But I could go Lucky for feat and take booming blade and GFB and go more melee. I could use Lucky (or my familiar) to help me get advantage w/ my one attack. This does more damage _if_ the BB goes off or _if_ the GFB can strike a second target.

Or I could go xbow expertise and take one or both of the damage cantrips (bb and/or gfb) and be flexible. I wouldn't have Lucky but would be able to pick whether I go ranged or melee.

I just have no significant experience playing rogue and can't tell which of these options to pick. They may be so close to each other that it's hard to see a clear advantage - but if I'm missing something please tell me. Thanks much.

Oh yeah, and then there's the whole light thing. If I go bb and gfb I lose light cantrip for several levels. Til I get 4th cantrip. May not be a big deal in the campaign. But might.


Thanks much. I don't think we're allowed Bladesingers. Maybe. Will look into that but am pretty sure they're no-go.

I do want to get some of the rogue stuff asap - it's pretty good. So dips ... would be painful.

There is the lucky feat plus wiz div dip for _five_ heavy influences on die rolls per long rest - 3 rerolls and 2 pre-known rolls. That is pretty darn heavy-duty.

But xbow expertise feat w/ hand crossbow (hand xbow earlier, if I forgot that part) is sweet and can pair with SS feat and even Haste later on (I've been taught how to use haste to get 2 sneak attacks per round). With haste that would be 3 shots, and while -5 to hit is bad visaviz tough ACs, not all things have tough ACs.

Will think about thorn whip and the other advice.

But maybe what I'm having trouble getting my head around is do I want - or need - to commit to one or the other? If I get at least, say, GFB, I can do respectable melee damage w/ rapier. And I can use owl familiar to get adv if I'm not stealthed - it's much easier to stealth and shoot than to stealth, move in, and stab - the moving in part probably requires another roll and often gives you away. But I could have xbow exp. feat for fights when hand xbow is required. Normally I just know what I want - here I'm ambivalent and worried I'm failing to see something obvious.

As to dips...

Fighter is something I was thinking about dipping. At one I get +2 to hit ranged, +1 ac, or +2 damage w/ rapier and the heal. At two there is action surge. And at 3 BM. Oh, and shield with rapier, meaning ac is 12 + 5 (at 8) Dex + 2 shield + 1 (fight style) = 20 ac - which is outrageous. But ... I'm supposed to stealth, hide, sneak, cunning dodge, dodge my way out of combat damage. Should put resources into more damage, probably.

But other dips are good, too. A cleric dip does some interesting things (as I think someone mentioned). But if I'm dipping I'm doing that in the teens, most likely.

For now I'm just thinking about being happy and successful from lvl 5 to 10.

So, OP is saying he REALLY DOES WANT many Rogue features, including high-level ones, wants to play a ranged Rogue, is very reluctant to dip because he knows how much of a "waiting snowball" it creates later, and expressly said that Bladesingers are not allowed (also, by the way, even if it were, it would require elfish ancestry, so one less feat for OP)...



Or Spell Sniper and two levels of Bladesinger (which will make you better than a straight AT in every single way).
And you come and "smash him in the face" telling that a Bladesinger dipped Rogue is plain better than pure Rogue in every single way, which is, also, atrociously false if you compare both at some levels, like 5 (no Uncanny Dodge), 9 (no Magical Ambush), 11 (no Reliable Talent) and 13 (no Versatile Trickster, which is the goal of OP by the way), but that's another matter...

All for the sake of a combo that is more risky to pull off (come into close range so bigger threat so more attacks sustained -even if you get improved AC in case of good INT-), only one chance to deal damage) for basically no more damage (or so little more) until level 11?

Excellent example of non-constructive advice which amounts to "I push my own theorycraft archetype based solely on personal taste, without any regards to OP's context and goals" instead of "I try to provide as useful advice as I can to help someone realize his character concept".

*slow*.*clap*.
I don't like being this annoying nor direct, but seriously, you earned this one.
If you are that much in love with your build, feel free to open a thread to brag about how awesome it is (although it will expose you to feedback you may not like indeed, but you will also meet other Bladesinger/AT lovers -including me ^^-), instead of trying to shoehorn it into other people's concepts.

[mephnick]

Wow. Impressive. Seriously?

*Pulling back the thread (bolding the important parts for you since you apparently didn't take any time reading)...*

Don't worry, I won't read this one carefully either. A poster (not OP) was interested in BB + whip rogue and I was clarifying the best way to get it. I'm sorry multiple dialogues confuse you.