Should Monsters be Frightened of Humanity?

[Scalenex]

Are monsters afraid of humans (and demi-humans or maybe monstrous humanoids)? I’m going to refer to human-like creatures as humans for simplicity.

Most humans in D&D worlds are pretty unimpressive, but a small number of them are extremely formidable. What counts as formidable varies from monster to monster. A Goblin would be terrified by a fifth level fighter. A typical Frost Giant is hopelessly outclassed by a 15th level fighter.

I think most creatures in the Monstrous Manual would look on humans as vague terrifying legends. For the majority of monsters, it would be difficult to tell the difference between a group of 3rd level warriors and a pack of 13th level adventurers.

I’m sure animal behavior is fun to discuss and speculate on, so I’ll leave out monsters with animal intelligence, everything from wolves to the Terrasque. They are going to seek food when they are hungry and seek the most vulnerable food you can find. They are going to avoid risks most of the time but take more chances to hunt when they are especially hungry. Animal intelligence creature are not going to have lore on humans. We’ll skip them.

I figure any monster that used to be human (ghosts, lycanthropes, vampires) and retains most of their memories would be pretty good at spotting a group of non-disguised adventurers in a crowd and make intelligent choices about fight or flight. I figure highly intelligent monsters would like Mindflayers can probably figure this out. We’ll skip them.

Outsiders are probably okay. They are generally highly intelligent and many of them used to be human. They don’t have normal drives and concern for mortality as other creatures. We’ll skip them.

Goblins, orcs, gnolls, kobolds and whatnot have cultures and teach their young. They know what humans are but they don’t interact with humans a lot. Unless the humanoid has some PC classes and a few years of practical experience, they probably can barely tell the difference between male humans and female humans, or between humans and elves. Even if adventurers are fairly rare, it’s probable that a given tribe or clan of monstrous humanoids ran across adventurers at some point and they probably suffered terrible losses. If anything, human adventurers would be even more terrifying if your only knowledge of them comes from tales of your great-great grandfather being plugged full of Magic Missiles. Would monstrous humanoids still make a lifestyle raiding and pillaging humans when they have the understanding that hidden among the soft human masses are demigods that can slaughter them easily?

You get to large monsters like giants it gets even weirder. They would surely have some stories about powerful humans. Some giants might lie about being bested by a creature so much smaller than they, but giants are generally at least moderately intelligent and they are pretty long lived as a rule, so they should retain memories and history. The closest parallel I can manage is what would human society be like if one out of every 200 rabbits was the Monty Python rabbit? No one would step foot outside.

Dragons are probably a strange case. A young dragon is fairly formidable compared to most people, but they can be killed by adventuring parties and many monsters (as well older dragons) fairly easily. Depending on how many close calls a dragon has in her youth, an elder dragon is likely to either be cautious with a “I didn’t live this long by taking foolish chances” or they would be arrogant and lord it over puny humans “I’ve bested worse than you 1000 times!”

What’s the point? Humans are what monsters consider to be monsters. Whether in the deep wilderness or bottom of a dungeon, I think if a monster is intelligence and has enough sense of history to at least have passed down oral lore, monsters would be a lot more likely to hide, flee, or negotiate when encountering strange humans than most games use monsters. It’s not exciting if most random encounters don’t fight back.

Can you have realistic intelligent monsters and lots of cool random encounters in the same setting?

[Kane0]

The answer is Don't Think About it Morty.

But you are pretty much right, a lot of the time monsters would be very wary of humans if they knew a small percentage of them could wipe the tribe out in an afternoon.
That's not to say all monstrous races all think and act like humans, hell humans don't have a very good track record of consistency. Humans have historically had a broad range of reactions to threats and the unknown, so it wouldn't be hard to believe that each monstrous population might have the curious, the paranoid, the adrenaline junkies, the vengeful, etc amongst them. Then again they might actually be all similarly minded along one of those paths and treat humans uniformly. For example all Hobgoblins will respond to humans like 300's Spartans do to Persians without exception. It can be difficult for humans to understand.

[Cluedrew]

OK, now I'm interested in a more social implications than how to reconcile this with the random encounter chart.

Still I think you can reconcile this easily if you want. In a low adventurer setting, you may have heard a tail of your great-grandfather being hit with a spear from 300 yards, but you have been raiding caravans your whole life without issue.

[Frozen_Feet]

Can you have realistic intelligent monsters and lots of cool random encounters in the same setting?

Yes.

The weird part is that you seem to believe that "cool random encounters" with "realistic intelligent monsters" have to be about fighting, rather than hiding, fleeing, negotiating etc.. Or that a fleeing or hiding monster is synonymous with "not fighting back". I suggest taking a look at real-life hunting expeditions. An encounter can be interesting even when humans are the ones with power.

More generally, the answer to "should monsters fear humans?" depends on many factors, from human population density, to technology level, to the monster's habitat. A powerfull dragon living in the bottom of the ocean, or peak of Mt. Everest, has zero things to fear from medieval peasants and is unreachable to even most "adventuring" parties. Meanwhile, a solitary vampire, werewolf or such has good reason to disguise itself best it can, lest it be overwhelmed by locals.

In D&D, things are somewhat skewed in favor of humanity, because, to paraphrase Gygax, "humans are the greatest heroes and the worst monsters". You can do away with this assumption, and the artefacts of D&D adventures and level system, to examine the question from more realistic premises easily enough. That will give you more general answers.

[Kallimakus]

My opinion?Adventurers are rare. They would be scary campfire legends for monstrous races, for sure, much like fictional monsters on our world. Things like orcs and goblins have their own chieftains, heroes and warlords that are just as superhuman as adventurers (to their eyes). In my view, monsters that do raid are likely to meet so many weaker heroes that the stories of terrifying humans seem untrue.

[Doorhandle]

I imagine giants would react to humans like we do to spiders: sure, spiders/humans are tiny, and just want to be left alone, but the majority of humans/giant is still fear them, and even if only one spider/humanoid in a hundred is fatally poisonous you don't know if this one is.

edit: Plus they feel all creepy when they crawl over you. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ9Q34MZkRw)

As for goblins, I like the idea that they're like pathfinder goblins: dangerously insane lunatics that would throw themselves against anything, especially if it out-matches them.

[Pugwampy]

Hoomuns are a tasty foods on legs . Just need to stay away from them three or four that can eats you . must not confoos hoomuns with peepels , very very big flava difference. Peepels use too much soaps .

Dont stay in one hidey hole for too long and always must eats up all the evidence and dont walk in the middle of their village when big yellow thing is in sky . If they go one by one , they donts care very fast BUTS if they sees yous ugly mug , then out comes pointy sticks and magic red flower and its poo time for yoos

Dont eats pretty ones , eats the ugly and lame and old and stinky and annoying ones first . Hoomuns likes that . Peepel mights not likes that but hoomuns certainly likes dat .

[Darth Ultron]

Can you have realistic intelligent monsters and lots of cool random encounters in the same setting?

The trick of looking at something like this is to not get caught up in the game rules. To be blunt the ''rules'' make no sense when applied to even fictional reality. Even the rules are just crazy stupid between ''everyone is a low level nobody and people with levels and monsters are rare'' and ''adventure is everywhere for the player characters." Not to mention the silly challenge rules where the group of 3rd level humans will only encounter a monster that is a ''fair and balanced'' challenge for them.

I think giants would see humans as more like humans see vermin. The vast majority of giants are not afraid of the ''human vermin'', but they know enough to be a bit careful. Like humans are with vermin. A human can swat spiders, flies and mice all day long with no worry.....but they do perk up around the dangerous, poisonous spiders, bees/wasps/hornets and rats.

[CharonsHelper]

I think this is mostly a setting question.

How common are adventurers? Is it Forgotten Realms where groups of mid-level adventurers are scattered everywhere? Is it a setting where any NPC above level 6 is rare? Do many gnolls/orcs/goblins have class levels? That badass level 6 human isn't as scary when your goblin clan is led by a level 8 alchemist.

How common are various monsters for that matter? Many of them might never visit the material plane, so they don't really think about them much at all.

[FreddyNoNose]

I think this is mostly a setting question.

How common are adventurers? Is it Forgotten Realms where groups of mid-level adventurers are scattered everywhere? Is it a setting where any NPC above level 6 is rare? Do many gnolls/orcs/goblins have class levels? That badass level 6 human isn't as scary when your goblin clan is led by a level 8 alchemist.

How common are various monsters for that matter? Many of them might never visit the material plane, so they don't really think about them much at all.

Although, it would be an idea for a game centered around players as "monsters".

Also, it a normal game, the monsters might be just trying to live their lives until the PCs come along and spoil things. So they decide to send humanity a message by attacking those villages, towns and caravans. Perhaps there was a long standing co-existence going on until the PCs messed that up. So the adventurers are to blame for what is going on. Now the people demand the PCs fix the problem or get out of town....

[War_lord]

Leaving aside "humans are the real monsters" rubbish. You're making the classic mistake (which really should have a fancy name) of assuming that every town is full of level 5 adventuring parties. The player party is the exception to the rule. Most people are farmers and simple workers, the town guard (if the town has one) is a bunch of farm boys and retired soldiers with spears, shields and maybe an old helmet. Not a real threat to an Orc band, or even a particularly sneaky and vicious tribe of Goblins. Only a few humans are trained warriors, every adult Orc is a trained warrior.

As for something bigger like a Giant. Humans are surrounded by spiders, some spiders are dangerous to humans. But we see being terrified of all spiders as irrational, because only a few rare spiders actually represent a genuine threat, and they don't tend to run like the others.

[Darth Ultron]

. But we see being terrified of all spiders as irrational, because only a few rare spiders actually represent a genuine threat, and they don't tend to run like the others.

Though plenty of humans are terrified of all spiders (I live with two of them...lol). So you can see intelligent monsters having much the same reaction to humans...

[War_lord]

Though plenty of humans are terrified of all spiders (I live with two of them...lol). So you can see intelligent monsters having much the same reaction to humans...

But a phobia is by definition an irrational fear of something. And a phobia of spiders is often encouraged by our cultural views on spiders, particularly in women. There's a lot going on in a phobia of spiders that might not apply to a sentient monster fearing a human. A fear and a phobia are different things.

[Tanarii]

He looked over the still smoking ruins of the encampment. His patrol had been sent to find out why the daily report hadn't been dispatched. 100 warriors, slaughtered like pigs, strung up on tree branches, nailed to the few walls still standing. An important outpost, wiped out like it was nothing.

Damn 'venturers had taken out two this month alone. Grog turned to his second. "Krunk. Boss gotta know 'bout this. 'sides ... sure don't wanna meet 'em ou'self. Move 'em out."

Depends on your campaign of course. :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

No.

Very few humanoids ever could personally challenge monsters in that way. Fewer go outside the human-hives for long. Fewer still will actually seek out monsters lairs. And 99.99% of those poor fools' bodies will wind up decorating the lairs of said monsters, whether as a gory pile outside of a carnivore's cave, as a skeleton in a necromancer's horde, or as furniture in a Lich's room. The smart ones retire while they still have their lives and some baubles, before the dungeon drags them to hell.

And do bear in mind that even our beloved PCs' lives are measured in game sessions, not years. Even for the several PCs who exist in the world, it's only a matter of time before they succumb to poor die rolls, bad decisions, or gamer disinterest.

[Beneath]

Orcs have high-level leaders, too. In 3e even giants have class levels, and in TSR D&D nothing stops the DM from giving certain elite giants (jarls, kings, priests) special abilities beyond regular giants of their kind, like using e.g. stone giant elders as an example.

[Scalenex]

All the talk of spiders and arachnophobia. I applaud the attempt at creating a real world parallel to my question, but I am not convinced this metaphor works.

Most spider bites include someone rolling over a spider in their sleep and triggering a defense mechanism, or not checking one's outdoor toilet and triggering the spiders defense mechanism.

There are no spiders that will consciously decide to seek a human out, track a human across great distances, then kill the human and take his treasure.

[Bastian Weaver]

Are we talking specifically about D&D or fantasy in general?

[Darth Ultron]

There are no spiders that will consciously decide to seek a human out, track a human across great distances, then kill the human and take his treasure.

Well, there are other humans that do that. So are humans afraid of humans?

[AMFV]

Well, there are other humans that do that. So are humans afraid of humans?

I'm definitely worried about some of them certainly.

[BaconAwesome]

It's a little bit like anime, where the living gods look pretty much like all the other ninja or bodyguards or shinigami or whatever.

1) For monsters who aren't smart enough to think tactically, I guess it comes down to their motivations. A skeleton is going to do what it's programmed to do; a wolf is probably going to be careful of anything it doesn't recognize unless it's desperate.

2) For tactical monsters, including other humans, I would assume they're on the lookout for enemies with class levels. Those will be the biggest challenge, but they also have the best loot. In a poor environment, the chance to bag a couple magic items and a spellbook must be pretty tempting.

Logically, relatively intelligent monsters should retreat and regroup whenever it looks like adventurers are more powerful than they look, and it wouldn't be stupid to have some cannon fodder ready to use to test any group of 4-8, especially if they're all reasonably well equipped but in drastically different styles, include a few demi-humans, and are scrupulous about taking long rests. ;)

[icefractal]

The player party is the exception to the rule. Most people are farmers and simple workers, the town guard (if the town has one) is a bunch of farm boys and retired soldiers with spears, shields and maybe an old helmet. Not a real threat to an Orc band, or even a particularly sneaky and vicious tribe of Goblins. Only a few humans are trained warriors, every adult Orc is a trained warrior..Is that really the case though? Most settings don't bear that out, having plenty of higher level sages, priests, etc that the PCs can turn to for help, magic craftsmen to sell them things, moderately leveled guards to keep them in line, higher level kings and guild leaders that aren't easily tricked, and so forth.

Sure, that's still relatively small as a percentage of the total population, but again, if even 1/1000 squirrels could slice someone in half, people would be a lot more wary around them.

[Drakevarg]

I'm definitely on the absolutely not side of things. There are badass heroes, sure. But I've always held that any intelligent creature that isn't their equivalent of a civilian has class levels. Giants, dragons, anything. If it can think and it's not a farmer, it trains just as hard as you do. As for everything else, well... most people aren't legendary heroes, and apex predators the size of barns are a thing that exists. Outside of the biggest cities where you can hide behind walls and wizards, you're on the food chain as a fact of life.

Humans as the dominant species in a fantasy setting has always struck me as a contrivance, usually waved away as a combination of numbers and adaptability. It's not setup that holds up very well to close observation, and quite frankly the alternative is just more interesting to think about.

[Grim Portent]

I would expect most monsters to be at least cautious of anyone wearing armour and wielding a weapon, but fairly nonchalant about confronting random peasants. Even then most would learn to be somewhat stealthy while in human lands because humans bring more humans.

Imagine you're an ogre, now the guy with halfplate and a halberd guarding the storehouse is probably not a real threat to you, but he might get lucky and a big heavy blade smashing into your shoulder is never nice. It's probably more sensible to grab the farmboy working near the woods and eat him, or steal some sheep while the shepherd is napping. Really though if you do too much a bunch of guys with dogs, bows, spears and torches are going to come and try and drive you away or kill you, so it's best to keep harassing the humans to a minimum so you don't have to move again too soon.

Now in monster controlled lands the balance of power is different but most of them will still learn to respect the threat of armour and weapons when it's demonstrated by the smarter monsters. An ogre would learn to fear armoured orcs as easily as armoured humans, and is probably smart enough to figure out it's the armour and weapons that are the problem.


Actual terror levels of fear are unlikely except in specific cases. It's unusual to really fear random people but there could be wisdom in fearing Robierre the Bandit King and the same would apply to monsters, fearing specific people with widespread reputations.

[Pugwampy]

If monsters are afraid of my hero , then I want my automatic intimidation bonus .

[Hopeless]

Yes aren't we all?

Humanity is very monstrous at times!

[Slipperychicken]

If monsters are afraid of my hero , then I want my automatic intimidation bonus .

Also this. If they were so scared to death of humans, they probably would run away or parley once in a while instead of battling us to the death (even while very badly outnumbered!) the instant they see us wandering in the opposite direction of their lair.

[CharonsHelper]

Also this. If they were so scared to death of humans, they probably would run away or parley once in a while instead of battling us to the death (even while very badly outnumbered!) the instant they see us wandering in the opposite direction of their lair.

Not necessarily. If I'm scared of spiders and I see a spider in the house, that doesn't mean that I'm going to run out of my house screaming.

[Bastian Weaver]

Not necessarily. If I'm scared of spiders and I see a spider in the house, that doesn't mean that I'm going to run out of my house screaming.

Actually, yes, that's pretty much how arachnophobia works in most cases...

As to the original question: shouldn't monsters be afraid of other monsters? I'm not sure, but I think the percentage of soft, squishy and pretty much defenseless is somewhat higher in human society than it is among, say, dragons.
Also, as it was mentioned above, monsters probably don't consider the squishy softies and the badass sword-and-sorcery-wielding-champions to be the same species.

[Frozen_Feet]

Well, there are other humans that do that. So are humans afraid of humans?

Provably yes.


If monsters are afraid of my hero , then I want my automatic intimidation bonus .

In d20, humans as medium creatures get at least +4 bonus to intimidate checks against small or smaller creatures, including goblins, kobolds and house cats.

[Slipperychicken]

Not necessarily. If I'm scared of spiders and I see a spider in the house, that doesn't mean that I'm going to run out of my house screaming.

When I see a black bear wandering around in my path during a stroll (yes, this has happened), I know that some bears hurt people sometimes, and that black bears can be defeated by humans. I'm going to put distance between us in a non-threatening manner. I'm not going to charge at it with whatever I have on-hand.

[Kane0]

I think the biggest problem is that we humans can only speculate. Nobody has encountered an entirely different species as intelligent and dangerous as ourselves. I suppose the best reference point we have is historical encounters of foreign humans and our preparations for potential alien encounters. Taking those into account, size isn't the biggest factor so much as intelligence, behaviour and the unknown.

I think there was a thread a while ago about this actually, it ended up pretty much pointing to the Humanity, F*** Yeah reddit.

[Darth Ultron]

When I see a black bear wandering around in my path during a stroll (yes, this has happened), I know that some bears hurt people sometimes, and that black bears can be defeated by humans. I'm going to put distance between us in a non-threatening manner. I'm not going to charge at it with whatever I have on-hand.

Once Upon a Time I was fishing in a river....and a young bear came out of the woods and sat down beside me(like five feet away). So I slowly backed up and away.....and, of course, caught a nice bass right then. The bear noticed, so I let him have the fish, and the rod, and made my retreat as he ate.

[Doorhandle]

Once Upon a Time I was fishing in a river....and a young bear came out of the woods and sat down beside me(like five feet away). So I slowly backed up and away.....and, of course, caught a nice bass right then. The bear noticed, so I let him have the fish, and the rod, and made my retreat as he ate.

People talk much of Australia's super deadly wildlife, but we don't have to deal with bears, so I frankly feel we're better off than 80% of the north hemisphere.

As for the big discussion on my point, I guess what I'm getting at is that they'd be wary of humanoids, we give a lot more consideration and care to disposing of spiders than we do when disposing of, say, flies.
Although considering humans build towns and the like, termites is probably the better metaphor.

[Knaight]

I'm going to go with the probably not angle. Humans that pose a threat are generally incredibly rare, best measured in parts per million for even moderately nasty monsters. That's just not enough to be scary - eating a million meals is generally more dangerous than that for most animals, either due to predators jumping you during meal time or because prey can fight back at better than million to one odds. Just look at the ubiquity of pack hunters which will deliberately target dangerous herbivores that are bigger than them.

[Kami2awa]

We all have our entries in the Monster Manual. Ours is between Howler and Hydra.