Rogue(11)/Fighter(1) Multiclass options

[bbrown12]

EDIT:

Hey there,

I am playing a ranged rogue/fighter with the following stats.

My current build:

Race: Humant(variant)
Class: Rogue (11) / Fighter (1)
Archetype: Arcane Trickster with Familiar (Owl), giving me Advantage in Fights due Help Action.
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 20 | CON 14 | WIS 12 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Feats:Crossbow Expert (second attack with Bonus Action), Sharpshooter (-5 AT/+10 DMG)
Fighting-Style: Ranged combat with Hand-Crossbow using Bonus-Aktion for second attack with Sharpshooter (-5/+10).

Important to mention:
1.) We are playing the variant rule for resting now (short rest = 1 day; long rest = 7 days), so I won't take much advantage of "per short rest" stuff.
2.) My DM ruled that we are restricted to two classes for multiclassing. So, I am restricted to Rogue/Fighter in my further class options.


Possibilities:

Because I think the real high Rogue levels don't offer that good stuff, I am pretty sure to stop at Rogue 15-17. The question is more like when should I pick the fighter levels best? Both classes offer nice stuff. I want to find out, which suits best for the next levels[/U]. (I left out features that are not important for me or because of the rest variant rule.)

1.) Fighter (5) -> Rogue (15)


Fighter 2: Action surge (almost useless with variant resting rule)
Fighter 3: Battlemaster Superior Dice (Fighter 3) - Precision Attack to turn a miss into a hit. Pushing Attack(15 feet) to shove enemies from cliffs, etc.
Fighter 4: ASI
Fighter 5: Extra Attack
Rogue 12: Extra ASI - RP-Feat or Resilient: Constitution
Rogue 13: +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus + Level 3 spells
Rogue 14: Haste spell + Blindsight
Rogue 15: Slippery Mind (Proficiency with WIS saving throws) +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus


2.) Fighter (3) -> Rogue (15) -> Fighter (5) :


Fighter 2: Action surge (almost useless with variant resting rule)
Fighter 3: Battlemaster Superior Dice (Fighter 3) - Precision Attack to turn a miss into a hit. Pushing Attack(15 feet) to shove enemies from cliffs, etc.
Rogue 12: Extra ASI - RP-Feat or Resilient: Constitution
Rogue 13: +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus + Level 3 spells
Rogue 14: Haste spell + Blindsight
Rogue 15: Slippery Mind (Proficiency with WIS saving throws) +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus
Fighter 4: ASI
Fighter 5: Extra Attack


3.) Rogue (15) -> Fighter (5):


Rogue 12: Extra ASI - RP-Feat or Resilient: Constitution
Rogue 13: +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus + Level 3 spells
Rogue 14: Haste spell + Blindsight
Rogue 15: Slippery Mind (Proficiency with WIS saving throws) +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus
Fighter 2: Action surge (almost useless with variant resting rule)
Fighter 3: Battlemaster Superior Dice (Fighter 3) - Precision Attack to turn a miss into a hit. Pushing Attack(15 feet) to shove enemies from cliffs, etc.
Fighter 4: ASI
Fighter 5: Extra Attack


Final thoughts:

Extra Attack: Extra Attack let's me take more advantage out of Sharpshooter, simply because I have one more shot/round. Otherwise, I get a lot of cool stuff from the following Rogue levels in really late game (Haste, Slippery Mind, ...). It almost feels like the possibility to boost myself with Haste + the 2D6 extra damage would compensate the missing attack quite well.

Superior Dice: I really like the fact to turn a miss into a hit with Precision Attack or shove a creature 15 feet with Pushing Attack (down cliffs, etc.). The question is, when to go for those two levels. Now or until Rogue 15? We are doing a short rests at maximum once per dungeon. So, I won't be able to spam those shots.

Stop at Fighter (3): It sounds like a wasted ASI, but it really isn't, because both Rogue 12 and Rouge 16 offer an ASI. So, I will have the same amount of ASI + progress in the Rogue class.


I am interested in your suggestions! Thanks in advance!

[Spacehamster]

Would have gone the fighter levels before rogue but that's just me, out of the options I would say fighter levels offers the most, would go rogue 11, fighter 6, ranger 3 hunter for maximum damage. :)

[skaddix]

Yeah mix in some variant ranger.

[bbrown12]

Yeah mix in some variant ranger.

Would have gone the fighter levels before rogue but that's just me, out of the options I would say fighter levels offers the most, would go rogue 11, fighter 6, ranger 3 hunter for maximum damage. :)
I need to talk to my DM, if I am allowed to mix with UA Ranger. Because normally we don't incluce Unearthed Arcana.

The question is: How much damage increase does an Extra Attack really offer? Is it that much? Or might extra 2D6 Sneak Attack damage even compensate that? (Consider, that "normal" damage is only 1D6 + X. I need to hit with -5 Hit penalty to do extra +10 damage. That might be hard on upper levels, if NPCs have higher AC).

If I am going for Fighter (Extra Attack), I miss further spell levels from Rogue. That is a big deal that needs to be paid well.

If I go for Ranger (not UA!), I get some level 1 spells, but I also miss further spell levels from Rogue. And the damage increase that Ranger offers is not that great compared to increasing Sneak Attack.

[Chugger]

I need to talk to my DM, if I am allowed to mix with UA Ranger. Because normally we don't incluce Unearthed Arcana.

The question is: How much damage increase does an Extra Attack really offer? Is it that much? Or might extra 2D6 Sneak Attack damage even compensate that? (Consider, that "normal" damage is only 1D6 + X. I need to hit with -5 Hit penalty to do extra +10 damage. That might be hard on upper levels, if NPCs have higher AC).

If I am going for Fighter (Extra Attack), I miss further spell levels from Rogue. That is a big deal that needs to be paid well.

If I go for Ranger (not UA!), I get some level 1 spells, but I also miss further spell levels from Rogue. And the damage increase that Ranger offers is not that great compared to increasing Sneak Attack.

I think they're talking about the Hunter subclass you get at lvl 3 being a PHB Ranger, not UA. You just need to match the multi-class requirements (also in PHB).

Yes, there is always a price you pay for going multi.

Look at my post on AT and you might see some helpful stuff there.

I think you put the wrong feat. Aren't you going xbow expert then SS at 4? You repeat SS.

Have you considered melee w/ ScAG cantrips like booming blade or green flame blade?

If you use booming w/ a rapier at lvl 5 you do 1d8 + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 1d8 (booming) + 3 dex mod = average damage of 22.5 to main target plus 9 more or 31.5 if target moves.

You do 22.5 average plus 1d8 + int (in your case 1) to a second badguy 5' from your main target or closer or 27.5.

You do 1d6 + 3d6 + 3 with a hand xbow or 17.

If you then take a second shot with the xbow exp feat and your bonus action, you do 1d6 + 3 or 6.5 more for 23.4 for both shots, but you can't use a cunning action now (you used up your bonus action - your cunning action is a bonus action).

BUT if you take minus 5 to hit, you do 27 with the first shot and 16.5 with the bonus shot - but - what if the target is AC 17? You only have +6 to hit - +8 if you did the fighter dip. So instead of hitting on a roll of 9, you only hit on a roll of 14. You're going to miss a lot more often. At this point I am too tired to attempt to calc the DPR, but it's doable. If you wanna go hand xbow a lot of rogues do - it's a good way - but you're not going to be doing +10 all the time. Sometimes you'll not take that -5 because you really want to at least hit the thing. If you can fight for to-hit plusses (precision from BM, archery fighting style, bless and magic bows and so on) then SS becomes much more viable.

[smcmike]

Get to Fighter 6 for sure.

It isn't just about how much damage another attack does, it's also about being sure you land one attack for sneak attack damage.

As it is, I imagine you are sometimes nervous to use Sharpshooter, since you really want to land that big sneak attack hit. With six levels of Fighter, you'll have three chances to do so, and if all of those fail, you can throw in two more shots, or boost one with Precision Attack. This means that you can use sharpshooter all of the time against most enemies, which means that your potential damage goes way up, if the shots land.

[Spacehamster]

Those 3 ranger levels(hunter) would add access to healing spells, horde breaker for a possible extra attack on an adjacent foe, hunters mark, one additional skill, all in all worth it in my opinion. :) oh and another combat style which I would take as mariner(+1 AC when wearing no armor, light armor or medium and no shield, also gives you normal movement speed when climbing or swimming). :)

[Easy_Lee]

For a fighter dip on a rogue, the question is this: do you have a reliable means of gaining reaction attacks?

Extra attack is worth it if no one in the party is granting you consistent means of opportunity attacks (such as a BM using commanding strike, or someone casting haste on you so you can hold an action to attack and still make a haste attack). However, if you don't expect to get as many opportunity attacks, then extra attack is better than the extra sneak attack dice.

In your case, extra attack is probably better. You aren't a melee build and you have sharpshooter, both of which are good reasons to pick up an extra attack.

Both fighter and ranger are effective means of picking up extra attack. Fighter is better than ranger, but revised ranger is better than fighter.

[Specter]

Fighter 8/Rogue 12. Reasons:

1) 7 ASI's, more than any other class combination. You can those extra to boost INT, CON or grab generic feats like Ritual Caster or Tough.
2) If you take levels in Eldritch Knight, you can get up to 3rd-level spell slots, plus some other useful spells along the way.
3) Extra Attack is very nice with Sharpshooter.

[SharkForce]

i'll throw in my vote: Other.

11 rogue/6 fighter, plus 3 sorcerer levels for metamagic. choose subtle (because you're an arcane trickster, dangit!) and whatever else you like (but probably not quicken and almost definitely not heighten). put your sorcerer spells into things you'd like your rogue to have, but couldn't previously choose because you were mostly stuck with enchantment and illusion... for example, enlarge/reduce or enhance ability (which isn't on the wizard list, so you couldn't grab that even if you wanted to). if you're feeling *really* crazy, you could stop at fighter 4 and go 5 levels of sorcerer, but i think that extra attack really does offer a lot of value.

sorcerer archetype is largely irrelevant, since you're only getting one ability anyways. draconic sorcerer is arguably a very small amount better, i suppose.

[bbrown12]

I think they're talking about the Hunter subclass you get at lvl 3 being a PHB Ranger, not UA. You just need to match the multi-class requirements (also in PHB).
I think you put the wrong feat. Aren't you going xbow expert then SS at 4? You repeat SS.

Have you considered melee w/ ScAG cantrips like booming blade or green flame blade?
Yes, I have considered that. But beyond pure damage, Crossbow Expert with Sharpshooter offer me the advantage to be able to stay out of the "danger zone". I have played 8 levels with both feats now and it's really easy for me to avoid damage. It's definitely the "save variant" and we already have two frontliners.



Fighter 8/Rogue 12. Reasons:

1) 7 ASI's, more than any other class combination. You can those extra to boost INT, CON or grab generic feats like Ritual Caster or Tough.
2) If you take levels in Eldritch Knight, you can get up to 3rd-level spell slots, plus some other useful spells along the way.
3) Extra Attack is very nice with Sharpshooter.
Class order: I am Rogue(11)/Fighter(1) at the moment. WoiuSo, Feats would be the way to go. But do I need that much feats? I was thinking about Actor to mimic other persons with Disguise Self. That would be a nice one. I need to mention that our next Adventure is "Out of the Abyss" and our DM promised more social encounters, because "Princes of the Apocalypse" was so combat-based.

Concerning ASI: I have no need for CON, because I can stay out of the "danger zone" most of the time. And I am not quite sure, if INT is worth it. I only use my Spell DC for "Suggestion". That's it.

Eldritch Knight/Battlemaster: I believe, Battlemaster is the better choice. Eldritch Knight would offer me level 3 slots, but no level 3 spells. That's a problem. Battlemaster is really strong, because I can use precision attacks to hit my SA, if I have some really bad rolls.



i'll throw in my vote: Other.

11 rogue/6 fighter, plus 3 sorcerer levels for metamagic. choose subtle (because you're an arcane trickster, dangit!) and whatever else you like (but probably not quicken and almost definitely not heighten). put your sorcerer spells into things you'd like your rogue to have, but couldn't previously choose because you were mostly stuck with enchantment and illusion...
That sounds nice. But that might be an option for level 18-20, right?

[SharkForce]

Yes, I have considered that. But beyond pure damage, Crossbow Expert with Sharpshooter offer me the advantage to be able to stay out of the "danger zone". I have played 8 levels with both feats now and it's really easy for me to avoid damage. It's definitely the "save variant" and we already have two frontliners.



Class order: I am Rogue(11)/Fighter(1) at the moment. WoiuSo, Feats would be the way to go. But do I need that much feats? I was thinking about Actor to mimic other persons with Disguise Self. That would be a nice one. I need to mention that our next Adventure is "Out of the Abyss" and our DM promised more social encounters, because "Princes of the Apocalypse" was so combat-based.

Concerning ASI: I have no need for CON, because I can stay out of the "danger zone" most of the time. And I am not quite sure, if INT is worth it. I only use my Spell DC for "Suggestion". That's it.

Eldritch Knight/Battlemaster: I believe, Battlemaster is the better choice. Eldritch Knight would offer me level 3 slots, but no level 3 spells. That's a problem. Battlemaster is really strong, because I can use precision attacks to hit my SA, if I have some really bad rolls.



That sounds nice. But that might be an option for level 18-20, right?

well, you can put the sorcerer levels in whenever you feel like, but i would certainly agree that going fighter for the next 5 levels will give you a smoother progression. that's the main problem with dipping sorcerer... levels 1 and 2 are gonna be a bit boring. level 3 is where it finally gets interesting...

[Specter]

Class order: I am Rogue(11)/Fighter(1) at the moment. WoiuSo, Feats would be the way to go. But do I need that much feats? I was thinking about Actor to mimic other persons with Disguise Self. That would be a nice one. I need to mention that our next Adventure is "Out of the Abyss" and our DM promised more social encounters, because "Princes of the Apocalypse" was so combat-based.

Concerning ASI: I have no need for CON, because I can stay out of the "danger zone" most of the time. And I am not quite sure, if INT is worth it. I only use my Spell DC for "Suggestion". That's it.

Eldritch Knight/Battlemaster: I believe, Battlemaster is the better choice. Eldritch Knight would offer me level 3 slots, but no level 3 spells. That's a problem. Battlemaster is really strong, because I can use precision attacks to hit my SA, if I have some really bad rolls.

- Well, you got Actor in line. After that, feats are usually better than most class abilities. Even a generic feat like Tough makes you a mini-Barbarian. But of course you can pick something more specific, like War Caster (for Booming Blade opportunity attacks) or Mobile.

- CON is never enough. It may not be fundamental, sure, but it's always stay alive or not.
About INT: with Magical Ambush, you're missing out if you don't focus on debuffs like Suggestion, Hold Person or even Tasha's. Most enemies have average Wisdom saves, and imposing disadvantage on those can assure they fail, especially with a high INT.

- Battlemaster could work too.

[djreynolds]

Hey there,

I am playing a ranged rogue/fighter with the following stats.

Race: Human: Variant
Class: Rogue(11)/Fighter(1)
Ability Scores: ST 8 | DEX 15+1 | CON 13+1 | WIS 12 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Style: 1H-Crossbow, Bonus Action for bonus attack with Sharpshooter (-5 hit / +10 damage).

Level 1: Rogue (1) - Crossbow Expert (human variant), Sneak Attack 1D6
Level 2: Fighter (1) - Archery Style (+2 range attack bonus)
Level 3: Rogue (2) - Cunning Action
Level 4: Rogue (3) - Arcane Trickster, Sneak Attack 2D6,
Level 5: Rogue (4) - ASI: Sharpshooter (no cover, long range, -5 hit /+10 dmg)
Level 6: Rogue (5) - Sneak Attack 3D6, Uncanny Dodge
Level 7: Rogue (6) - Expertise
Level 8: Rogue (7) - Sneak Attack 4D6, level 2 spells (Invisibility, Mirror Image)
Level 9: Rogue (8) - ASI: DEX 18, spell: Darkvision
Level 10: Rogue (9) - Second Wind, Sneak Attack 5D6
Level 11: Rogue (10) - ASI: DEX 20
Level 12: Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent, Sneak Attack 6D6

1.) What would you prefer?
2.) How much damage increase is an Extra attack? Is it really that much? Are there any calculations about that? Consider that I am using my Bonus Action to shoot with Sharpshooter (-5 Hit / +10 Damage). Is anybody able to do calculations considering a) increasing Sneak, b) Sharpshooter c) with/without Extra Attack?


I would be happy about some inspiration and help!

Regards!

So you have an awesome build IMO. I would shoot for 16 rogue/ 4 fighter. If this puppy is going to level 20. Slippery mind is too good to pass up.

Here's the kicker for archer an using sharpshooter (SS).

1. You use cunning action after you shoot to hide and the next round emerge and shoot with advantage
So a ranger/rogue combo is nice because of pass without a trace coupled with expertise and terrain depending you can reliably hide. But just a rogue with expertise in stealth can use this effectively

2. You spam the precision maneuver and rest a lot
So this is why you want 7 levels of battle master (not lame) because at 7th they also get 1 more die bringing it to 5 SD a short rest and you also get know your enemy

3. Someone or you always have bless up and running
Magic initiate, a dip of cleric

4. Damage. Say you were an 11th level fighter, each strike you land is at least 16 DPH (+10+5+1d8), every round you are dishing out 48 DPR. Even versus beholders

The problem with rogue and crossbow expert is that bonus action is continually competed for. So since you are using your bonus action to attack and not for cunning action you need a way to ensure you hit.

So you could take 8 levels of battlemaster as suggested for 5 maneuvers a short rest... cough 7th level perk

You could also go 3 battlemaster for 4 SD, and 5 ranger. Ranger has good spells like hail of thorns for even extra damage or hunter's mark

But consider at 15th level rogue you get slippery mind and this class feature allows you to have 4 abilities with save proficiency if you also took.... cough... resilient con

__________________________________________________ ____________________

IMO take this rogue to level 16 because at this high of level, failing wisdom saves or con saves is deadly. So grab slippery mind at 15, and get resilient con at rogue 12 or rogue 16

I would then grab the remaining in battlemaster. 16 rogue/ 4 battlemaster

[JBPuffin]

This is actually something I really want to try, except dialing in on Dex and Con and going full-on fighter for Extra Attack III and IV. Oh, and dual-wielding crossbows since they're light weapons. Hail of bolts, engage! Although obviously, something like Horde Breaker and Volley would be pretty sweet, and sneak attack dice are cool (playing an AT atm who's enjoyed the extra 2d6), I kind of want to try something so straightforward.

[bbrown12]

The problem with rogue and crossbow expert is that bonus action is continually competed for. So since you are using your bonus action to attack and not for cunning action you need a way to ensure you hit.
Most of the time, I get Advantage due my Familiar. Furthermore, isn't using my Bonus Action to hide somehow the same than shooting two times? Sure, if I am hidden, I cannot be attacked. But beyond that I throw two dice. The advantage with Crossbow Expert is: If if hit the first one, I can go for SS for the second. If I hide, I throw both dice at the same time (advantage) and have no second attack. I need to mention that we have two "frontliners", so I get my SA almost anytime.



So you could take 8 levels of battlemaster as suggested for 5 maneuvers a short rest... cough 7th level perk

You could also go 3 battlemaster for 4 SD, and 5 ranger. Ranger has good spells like hail of thorns for even extra damage or hunter's mark
Going for a 3rd class (Ranger) somehow feels like a bad trade. Sure, Hunter's Mark and some spells are nice. But I miss extra SA damage + 3rd level spells from AT for that. And that just seems not to be worth it.


But consider at 15th level rogue you get slippery mind and this class feature allows you to have 4 abilities with save proficiency if you also took.... cough... resilient con

__________________________________________________ ____________________

IMO take this rogue to level 16 because at this high of level, failing wisdom saves or con saves is deadly. So grab slippery mind at 15, and get resilient con at rogue 12 or rogue 16

I would then grab the remaining in battlemaster. 16 rogue/ 4 battlemaster
Would you really leave the Extra Attack (Fighter 5) for another ASI (Rogue 16)?

What's about the following build:

Race: Human: Variant
Class: Rogue(11)/Fighter(1)
Ability Scores: ST 8 | DEX 15+1 | CON 13+1 | WIS 12 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Style: 1H-Crossbow, Bonus Action for bonus attack with Sharpshooter (-5 hit / +10 damage).

Level 1: Rogue (1) - Crossbow Expert (human variant), Sneak Attack 1D6
Level 2: Fighter (1) - Archery Style (+2 range attack bonus)
Level 3: Rogue (2) - Cunning Action
Level 4: Rogue (3) - Arcane Trickster, Sneak Attack 2D6,
Level 5: Rogue (4) - ASI: Sharpshooter (no cover, long range, -5 hit /+10 dmg)
Level 6: Rogue (5) - Sneak Attack 3D6, Uncanny Dodge
Level 7: Rogue (6) - Expertise
Level 8: Rogue (7) - Sneak Attack 4D6, level 2 spells (Invisibility, Mirror Image)
Level 9: Rogue (8) - ASI: DEX 18, spell: Darkvision
Level 10: Rogue (9) - Second Wind, Sneak Attack 5D6
Level 11: Rogue (10) - ASI: DEX 20
Level 12: Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent, Sneak Attack 6D6
Level 13: Rogue (12) - ASI: Actor (for Social Encounters)
Level 14: Rogue (13) - +1D6 SA damage, level 3 spells Versatile Trickster
Level 15: Fighter (2) - Action Surge
Level 16: Fighter (3)- Achetype: Battlemaster (Superior Dice)
Level 17: Fighter (4) - ASI: Resilient (CON saving throw proficiency)
Level 18: Fighter (5) - Extra Attack
Level 19: Rogue (14) - Blindsense, Haste
Level 20: Rogue (15) - +1D6 SA damage, Slippery Mind (WIS saving throw proficiency)

Would you go for Extra Attack earlier?

[SharkForce]

using your bonus action to hide potentially has a rather nice advantage; you could be hidden on the enemy's turn, which means they're gonna have a heck of a time targeting you :)

[djreynolds]

Most of the time, I get Advantage due my Familiar. Furthermore, isn't using my Bonus Action to hide somehow the same than shooting two times? Sure, if I am hidden, I cannot be attacked. But beyond that I throw two dice. The advantage with Crossbow Expert is: If if hit the first one, I can go for SS for the second. If I hide, I throw both dice at the same time (advantage) and have no second attack. I need to mention that we have two "frontliners", so I get my SA almost anytime.


Going for a 3rd class (Ranger) somehow feels like a bad trade. Sure, Hunter's Mark and some spells are nice. But I miss extra SA damage + 3rd level spells from AT for that. And that just seems not to be worth it.


Would you really leave the Extra Attack (Fighter 5) for another ASI (Rogue 16)?

What's about the following build:

Race: Human: Variant
Class: Rogue(11)/Fighter(1)
Ability Scores: ST 8 | DEX 15+1 | CON 13+1 | WIS 12 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Style: 1H-Crossbow, Bonus Action for bonus attack with Sharpshooter (-5 hit / +10 damage).

Level 1: Rogue (1) - Crossbow Expert (human variant), Sneak Attack 1D6
Level 2: Fighter (1) - Archery Style (+2 range attack bonus)
Level 3: Rogue (2) - Cunning Action
Level 4: Rogue (3) - Arcane Trickster, Sneak Attack 2D6,
Level 5: Rogue (4) - ASI: Sharpshooter (no cover, long range, -5 hit /+10 dmg)
Level 6: Rogue (5) - Sneak Attack 3D6, Uncanny Dodge
Level 7: Rogue (6) - Expertise
Level 8: Rogue (7) - Sneak Attack 4D6, level 2 spells (Invisibility, Mirror Image)
Level 9: Rogue (8) - ASI: DEX 18, spell: Darkvision
Level 10: Rogue (9) - Second Wind, Sneak Attack 5D6
Level 11: Rogue (10) - ASI: DEX 20
Level 12: Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent, Sneak Attack 6D6
Level 13: Rogue (12) - ASI: Actor (for Social Encounters)
Level 14: Rogue (13) - +1D6 SA damage, level 3 spells Versatile Trickster
Level 15: Fighter (2) - Action Surge
Level 16: Fighter (3)- Achetype: Battlemaster (Superior Dice)
Level 17: Fighter (4) - ASI: Resilient (CON saving throw proficiency)
Level 18: Fighter (5) - Extra Attack
Level 19: Rogue (14) - Blindsense, Haste
Level 20: Rogue (15) - +1D6 SA damage, Slippery Mind (WIS saving throw proficiency)

Would you go for Extra Attack earlier?

Like I said before, I really like the build. It works just fine. Also I did not know you had a familiar for advantage.

How I normally get advantage for my archer thief is I shoot and then BA hide, and the next round I get advantage when I shoot again. Then rinse and repeat. That's why I like ranger because you can get pass without a trace for +10 to stealth along with your expertise... its almost like you cannot fail.

5 Fighter for the extra attack works. 2 attacks is nice, as it 1 extra chance to land your sneak attack and it leaves you your Bonus action free if you need to hide, help, or disengage, or dash or to land sharpshooter once again

I just don't care about the extra attack, I'd rather have the lucky feat or mage slayer, I know its 15 points of damage if you land it but I'd rather a feat.

But for your build I would grab the extra attack now so you can get more use of out sharpshooter instead of 18th level

Also, it was mentioned before eldritch knight could be a nice addition instead of battlemaster

Great build, good luck

[bbrown12]

using your bonus action to hide potentially has a rather nice advantage; you could be hidden on the enemy's turn, which means they're gonna have a heck of a time targeting you :)
Yes, I mentioned that. Otherwise, attacking twice has often a highter damage output. To be honest, it's not that rare that I hit twice and deal 1D6 + 10 + 6 = 19.5 dmg on top. Extra Attack would give me that opportunity twice.

[bbrown12]

Thanks for your answers. I considered your suggestions, but am still not quite sure about the next levels.

Meanwhile, our DM ruled the following:
1.) We are playing the variant rule for resting now (short rest = 1 day; long rest = 7 days), so I won't take much advantage of "per short rest" stuff.
2.) My DM ruled that we are restricted to two classes for multiclassing. So, I am restricted to Rogue/Fighter in my further class options.


My current build:

Race: Humant(variant)
Class: Rogue (11) / Fighter (1)
Archetype: Arcane Trickster with Familiar (Owl), giving me Advantage in Fights due Help Action.
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 20 | CON 14 | WIS 12 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Feats:Crossbow Expert (second attack with Bonus Action), Sharpshooter (-5 AT/+10 DMG)
Fighting-Style: Ranged combat with Hand-Crossbow using Bonus-Aktion for second attack with Sharpshooter (-5/+10).


Possibilities:

Because I think the real high Rogue levels don't offer that good stuff, I am pretty sure to stop at Rogue 15-17. The question is more like when should I pick the fighter levels best? Both classes offer nice stuff. I want to find out, which suits best for the next levels[/U]. (I left out features that are not important for me or because of the rest variant rule.)

1.) Fighter (5) -> Rogue (15)


Fighter 2: Action surge (almost useless with variant resting rule)
Fighter 3: Battlemaster Superior Dice (Fighter 3) - Precision Attack to turn a miss into a hit. Pushing Attack(15 feet) to shove enemies from cliffs, etc.
Fighter 4: ASI
Fighter 5: Extra Attack
Rogue 12: Extra ASI - RP-Feat or Resilient: Constitution
Rogue 13: +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus + Level 3 spells
Rogue 14: Haste spell + Blindsight
Rogue 15: Slippery Mind (Proficiency with WIS saving throws) +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus


2.) Fighter (3) -> Rogue (15) -> Fighter (5) :


Fighter 2: Action surge (almost useless with variant resting rule)
Fighter 3: Battlemaster Superior Dice (Fighter 3) - Precision Attack to turn a miss into a hit. Pushing Attack(15 feet) to shove enemies from cliffs, etc.
Rogue 12: Extra ASI - RP-Feat or Resilient: Constitution
Rogue 13: +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus + Level 3 spells
Rogue 14: Haste spell + Blindsight
Rogue 15: Slippery Mind (Proficiency with WIS saving throws) +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus
Fighter 4: ASI
Fighter 5: Extra Attack


3.) Rogue (15) -> Fighter (5):


Rogue 12: Extra ASI - RP-Feat or Resilient: Constitution
Rogue 13: +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus + Level 3 spells
Rogue 14: Haste spell + Blindsight
Rogue 15: Slippery Mind (Proficiency with WIS saving throws) +1W6 Sneak Attack Bonus
Fighter 2: Action surge (almost useless with variant resting rule)
Fighter 3: Battlemaster Superior Dice (Fighter 3) - Precision Attack to turn a miss into a hit. Pushing Attack(15 feet) to shove enemies from cliffs, etc.
Fighter 4: ASI
Fighter 5: Extra Attack


Final thoughts:

Extra Attack: Extra Attack let's me take more advantage out of Sharpshooter, simply because I have one more shot/round. Otherwise, I get a lot of cool stuff from the following Rogue levels in really late game (Haste, Slippery Mind, ...). It almost feels like the possibility to boost myself with Haste + the 2D6 extra damage would compensate the missing attack quite well.

Superior Dice: I really like the fact to turn a miss into a hit with Precision Attack or shove a creature 15 feet with Pushing Attack (down cliffs, etc.). The question is, when to go for those two levels. Now or until Rogue 15? We are doing a short rests at maximum once per dungeon. So, I won't be able to spam those shots.

Stop at Fighter (3): It sounds like a wasted ASI, but it really isn't, because both Rogue 12 and Rouge 16 offer an ASI. So, I will have the same amount of ASI + progress in the Rogue class.


I am interested in your suggestions! Thanks in advance!

[SharkForce]

if you're doing 1 day short rests (which are iirc *actually* supposed to be 8 hours... as in, sleeping overnight counts), that is supposed to mean that the encounter rate should be reduced accordingly. if you do 8 hour short rests and you still have 6+ encounters per adventuring day, then it doesn't really matter which direction you go. you stay stealthed for everything and never do a damned thing unless you can one-shot the entire encounter, because you're not going to be able to handle the attrition of 8 fights per day without any rests ever. just wait for everyone else to die and build completely stealth-focused characters as well, because seriously... the situation you are describing, all that matters is that you be really really good at never actually getting into a fight, anything else is going to lead to helplessly watching everyone die gradually.

or, in other words... you should either expect to get access to short rests at a reasonable rate.

[Chugger]

For a fighter dip on a rogue, the question is this: do you have a reliable means of gaining reaction attacks?

Extra attack is worth it if no one in the party is granting you consistent means of opportunity attacks (such as a BM using commanding strike, or someone casting haste on you so you can hold an action to attack and still make a haste attack). However, if you don't expect to get as many opportunity attacks, then extra attack is better than the extra sneak attack dice.

In your case, extra attack is probably better. You aren't a melee build and you have sharpshooter, both of which are good reasons to pick up an extra attack.

Both fighter and ranger are effective means of picking up extra attack. Fighter is better than ranger, but revised ranger is better than fighter.

What he's saying ^^^ is very important for the mid-to-later game. Every higher level rogue who is competent (that I know) has told me this or something very close to this: find a way to get a second sneak attack done in the round (and it's via a reaction).

[bid]

Final thoughts:

Extra Attack: Extra Attack let's me take more advantage out of Sharpshooter, simply because I have one more shot/round. Otherwise, I get a lot of cool stuff from the following Rogue levels in really late game (Haste, Slippery Mind, ...). It almost feels like the possibility to boost myself with Haste + the 2D6 extra damage would compensate the missing attack quite well.

Superior Dice: I really like the fact to turn a miss into a hit with Precision Attack or shove a creature 15 feet with Pushing Attack (down cliffs, etc.). The question is, when to go for those two levels. Now or until Rogue 15? We are doing a short rests at maximum once per dungeon. So, I won't be able to spam those shots.

Stop at Fighter (3): It sounds like a wasted ASI, but it really isn't, because both Rogue 12 and Rouge 16 offer an ASI. So, I will have the same amount of ASI + progress in the Rogue class.


I am interested in your suggestions! Thanks in advance!
Extra attack is very important when it gives you a 2nd chance at SA. If you use the hand crossbow, you already have 2 attacks. That makes it "good" instead of "imperative".

BM's riposte is melee only, which kills your main out-of-turn SA. Precision attack is the next best thing, correcting near misses from SS.

That being said, don't stop half way in: extra attack is easily worth 2d6 SA. Go for fighter 5 before resuming rogue's progression.

[Citan]

Hey there,

I am playing a ranged rogue/fighter with the following stats.

Race: Human: Variant
Class: Rogue(11)/Fighter(1)
Ability Scores: ST 8 | DEX 15+1 | CON 13+1 | WIS 12 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Style: 1H-Crossbow, Bonus Action for bonus attack with Sharpshooter (-5 hit / +10 damage).

Level 1: Rogue (1) - Crossbow Expert (human variant), Sneak Attack 1D6
Level 2: Fighter (1) - Archery Style (+2 range attack bonus)
Level 3: Rogue (2) - Cunning Action
Level 4: Rogue (3) - Arcane Trickster, Sneak Attack 2D6,
Level 5: Rogue (4) - ASI: Sharpshooter (no cover, long range, -5 hit /+10 dmg)
Level 6: Rogue (5) - Sneak Attack 3D6, Uncanny Dodge
Level 7: Rogue (6) - Expertise
Level 8: Rogue (7) - Sneak Attack 4D6, level 2 spells (Invisibility, Mirror Image)
Level 9: Rogue (8) - ASI: DEX 18, spell: Darkvision
Level 10: Rogue (9) - Second Wind, Sneak Attack 5D6
Level 11: Rogue (10) - ASI: DEX 20
Level 12: Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent, Sneak Attack 6D6

1.) Would you prefert continueing Rogue oder Fighter?
2.) How much damage increase is an Extra attack? Is it really that much? Are there any calculations about that? Consider that I am using my Bonus Action to shoot with Sharpshooter (-5 Hit / +10 Damage). Is anybody able to do calculations considering a) increasing Sneak, b) Sharpshooter c) with/without Extra Attack?


I would be happy about some inspiration and help!

Regards!
Hi!
Well, I won't do the maths for you you lazy man. :smalltongue:

I'd definitely take the Extra Attack though, simply because...
- As a Rogue, the extra chance to apply my Sneak Attack damage the better
- As any Sharpshooter, the extra chance to land an attack the better.
So for you who gamble by being the two at the same time? I'd definitely pick it up.
Also consider what you can get on the way by picking Battlemaster: Precision attack will help even more landing those attacks when it counts. Or Eldricht Knight: a few more spells available, including some AOE that you can make work thanks to Magical Ambush.

As for final split, since you won't get 3rd attack anyways, I'd aim for a Rogue 15 / Fighter 5: you can get 3rd level spells as Rogue, including Haste, you also get naturally Wisdom proficiency which in turns frees Resilient for something else (Dexterity or Constitution), and a close-to-maximum Sneak Attack.

So, if you want Reliable Talent as soon as possible, I'd go Fighter 1 > Rogue 11 > (Battlemaster) Fighter 5 > Rogue 15.
If you want to play with Magical Ambush as soon as possible, I'd go Fighter 1 > Rogue 9 > (EK) 5 > Rogue 15.
If you don't care that much about Magical Ambush (you will use mainly buffs such as Shield / Mirror Image) or Reliable Talent, I'd go Rogue 1 > Fighter 5 > Rogue 11 to be extra good at Dex saves and get better sustained damage as early as possible.

[bbrown12]

Thanks all for your answers!


if you're doing 1 day short rests (which are iirc *actually* supposed to be 8 hours... as in, sleeping overnight counts), that is supposed to mean that the encounter rate should be reduced accordingly. if you do 8 hour short rests and you still have 6+ encounters per adventuring day, then it doesn't really matter which direction you go.
You are absolutely right. I expressed myself wrong. We just switched, because we usually only had between 2-4 encounters. So, it will be a change for our group (more for the casters than for me).



What he's saying ^^^ is very important for the mid-to-later game. Every higher level rogue who is competent (that I know) has told me this or something very close to this: find a way to get a second sneak attack done in the round (and it's via a reaction).


I'd definitely take the Extra Attack though, simply because...
- As a Rogue, the extra chance to apply my Sneak Attack damage the better
- As any Sharpshooter, the extra chance to land an attack the better.
So for you who gamble by being the two at the same time? I'd definitely pick it up.
Also consider what you can get on the way by picking Battlemaster: Precision attack will help even more landing those attacks when it counts. Or Eldricht Knight: a few more spells available, including some AOE that you can make work thanks to Magical Ambush.

As for final split, since you won't get 3rd attack anyways, I'd aim for a Rogue 15 / Fighter 5: you can get 3rd level spells as Rogue, including Haste, you also get naturally Wisdom proficiency which in turns frees Resilient for something else (Dexterity or Constitution), and a close-to-maximum Sneak Attack.
Thanks for your advices. You absolutely convinced me. I am going to go for Rogue (15) / Fighter (5).




So, if you want Reliable Talent as soon as possible, I'd go Fighter 1 > Rogue 11 > (Battlemaster) Fighter 5 > Rogue 15.
If you want to play with Magical Ambush as soon as possible, I'd go Fighter 1 > Rogue 9 > (EK) 5 > Rogue 15.
If you don't care that much about Magical Ambush (you will use mainly buffs such as Shield / Mirror Image) or Reliable Talent, I'd go Rogue 1 > Fighter 5 > Rogue 11 to be extra good at Dex saves and get better sustained damage as early as possible.
Consider that I am already Rogue (11) / Fighter (5). The main decision problem is which class I am going to finish first.

1.) Getting Extra Attack first means that I am going to get Haste at 19 and Slippery Mind at 20 (we won't play much sessions on that level).
2.) Going for Rogue (15) first means that I won't get much advantage out of the Extra Attack.

Either one means that I will get the advantages of the other class very late in the game. I think I will go for Fighter (5) first and buy myself a few Haste Scrolls. That's probably the best deal, I guess, even if I need to make a casting check.



Hi!
Well, I won't do the maths for you you lazy man. :smalltongue:
Haha...almost got ya, he? ;) Unfortunately I am not that good in math, so I am not able to do that. But to be honest, it's not that important, because it's more like a "gut feeling". Would just be interested in combining Xetheral's "GWM-Reference-Table" with Extra Attack. :)

Kind regards!

[PeteNutButter]

I'm not going to break out all the math, but suffice it to say that I've done it several times and the gist of it is get extra attack ASAP. Mathematically you should already have it.

To explain it, each additional D6 of sneak attack is marginally less helpful, as in it contributes a smaller percentage of damage to your overall damage. Going from 2d6 to 3d6 sneak attack dice is a 50% increase in SA damage, but from 7d6 to 8d6 is only 14% increase.

On the other hand with each D6 of sneak attack extra attack is more helpful, as it provides a second chance each round to do all those d6s. So to sum up, your rate of return on rogue levels is diminishing, while your return on acquiring extra attack is accelerating.

A typical rogue at level 10 does about 1d8+5d6+5 damage a round, hitting on average 65% of the time. That's a DPR of 17.55. A rogue 5/Fighter 5 does ((1d8+7)x2)*.65 + (3d6)*87.75 for a total DPR of 24.15.

In your situation you can see how having even more SA dice makes extra attack even more valuable, get it ASAP.

EDIT: I lied about not doing the math for you. I'm a nerd and like to do math, so here goes:
Fighter first route puts you at Rogue 11/Fighter 5 while Rogue first route puts you at Rogue 15/Fighter 1.

Rogue Build: Since you have archery style you should have a base of 75% hit chance so that's ((1d6+5)*2)*75% + 8d6*87.75%. That's 37.32 DPR. If you use SS it's ((1d6+15)*2)*50% + 8d6*75% for a DPR of 39.5.

Fighter Build: You now have 3 attacks so without SS that's ((1d6+5)*3)*75% + 6d6*98% so 39.7 DPR. But with SS it looks like ((1d6+15)*3)*50% + 6d6*87.5%. That's a DPR of 46.125.

[bbrown12]

I'm not going to break out all the math, but suffice it to say that I've done it several times and the gist of it is get extra attack ASAP. Mathematically you should already have it. [...]
EDIT: I lied about not doing the math for you. I'm a nerd and like to do math, so here goes: [...]
Haha...you are great! Thanks! ;)


Fighter first route puts you at Rogue 11/Fighter 5 while Rogue first route puts you at Rogue 15/Fighter 1.

Rogue Build: Since you have archery style you should have a base of 75% hit chance so that's ((1d6+5)*2)*75% + 8d6*87.75%. That's 37.32 DPR. If you use SS it's ((1d6+15)*2)*50% + 8d6*75% for a DPR of 39.5.

Fighter Build: You now have 3 attacks so without SS that's ((1d6+5)*3)*75% + 6d6*98% so 39.7 DPR. But with SS it looks like ((1d6+15)*3)*50% + 6d6*87.5%. That's a DPR of 46.125.
That's SS for all shots, right? I usually shoot without SS to land my SA for sure and use the Bonus Action for SS all the time (except, if I didn't land my SA on the first shot). But that's maybe, because two shots (without EA) is too much thrill to always shoot with SS. If I miss both (including my SA), I lose much more damage than I can win with SS in several rounds.

With three attacks (Extra Attack including) this changes. I can try to land my SA with SS on the first shot and if I miss, I have still two more shots to land it. The potential of "risking" SS is not only increasing by 50%, but even more that. Because I can risklessly shoot with SS + SA on the first shot.

Thanks for your great calculation and explanation! Rogue (11) / Fighter (1) --> Rogue (11) / Fighter (5) --> Rogue (15) / Fighter (5) is the way I am going to go on!

By the way: Which Battlermaster Maneuvers would you pick?

[PeteNutButter]

Haha...you are great! Thanks! ;)


That's SS for all shots, right? I usually shoot without SS to land my SA for sure and use the Bonus Action for SS all the time (except, if I didn't land my SA on the first shot). But that's maybe, because two shots (without EA) is too much thrill to always shoot with SS. If I miss both (including my SA), I lose much more damage than I can win with SS in several rounds.

With three attacks (Extra Attack including) this changes. I can try to land my SA with SS on the first shot and if I miss, I have still two more shots to land it. The potential of "risking" SS is not only increasing by 50%, but even more that. Because I can risklessly shoot with SS + SA on the first shot.

Thanks for your great calculation and explanation! Rogue (11) / Fighter (1) --> Rogue (11) / Fighter (5) --> Rogue (15) / Fighter (5) is the way I am going to go on!

By the way: Which Battlermaster Maneuvers would you pick?

Precision attack is the only one you should really use. You can take others to taste. Typically Riposte is the best for melee rogues, but since your ranged, stick to precision. Turning a miss into a hit adds 1d6+15 damage with potential to ensure sneak attack, while the others just add 1d8 damage.

So from a damage standpoint, the others only contribute as edge cases.

There is a breakpoint for when you should and shouldn't use SS. For the fighter build its enemy AC 20. Using SS against foes with an AC higher than 20 is a decrease in DPR.

As for if you should use SS after missing, perhaps its best to understand your chance of not landing sneak attack is the chance of missing all of your attacks multiplied by each other. So if you have a 50% miss chance 3 times, that's .5*.5*.5 or 12.5% chance to miss all 3 and miss your SA. If you have a 25% miss chance the chance you miss all 3 times is .25^3 which is about 1.6%.

My point is there is no clear rule, as it depends heavily on what your opponent's AC is, which as PCs we don't often know. I'd base the decision on whether to use SS or not on things like how important it is to do damage NOW vs the risk of missing on a case by case basis.

[Citan]

By the way: Which Battlermaster Maneuvers would you pick?
Agreed with PeteNutButter that Precision will be the one you will use most frequently.
For the two others, I'd suggest by order of preference...
- Menacing Attack: what's not to love? Defense for everyone (frightened so disadvantage on attacks) and safe distance for a turn (frightened so can't willingly move closer to you).
- Pushing/Disarm/Trip attack: can help you help allies with some kind of soft control at times.
- Evasive Manoeuvers: not mandatory by far on a character that has Cunning Action: Disengage and plan on staying at range most of the time. Can be great though if you get swarmed for some reason and want to Dash away.

Others are either not enough compared to what you have (Parry, Feinting), unusable (Lunging, Commander's Strike, Sweeping, Riposte) or imo inferior to other manoeuvers options (Goading, Manoeuvering, Distracting)...

[Snowbluff]

Okay, so my brother runs trusty Monty, a juggernaut. He's made it to 11 in AL handsomely with this build.

Max Dex, Con, int for Magic.

Fighter FIRST, use HEAVY ARMOR and a SHIELD. Cunning action to Dash move more if you're worried.
Use Shield (spell) and Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage taken (substantial).

Booming Blade Cantrip (that is to say, extra attack was not a damage increase) and Sentinel feat for lockdown.

Swapping in a Crossbow should work handsomely, but not as great for Arcane Trickster. I still prefer trickster for the spells, though.

[bbrown12]

Okay, so my brother runs trusty Monty, a juggernaut. He's made it to 11 in AL handsomely with this build.

Max Dex, Con, int for Magic.

Fighter FIRST, use HEAVY ARMOR and a SHIELD. Cunning action to Dash move more if you're worried.
Use Shield (spell) and Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage taken (substantial).

Booming Blade Cantrip (that is to say, extra attack was not a damage increase) and Sentinel feat for lockdown.

Swapping in a Crossbow should work handsomely, but not as great for Arcane Trickster. I still prefer trickster for the spells, though.
Of course, thanks for your reply. But what's actually the point? This is a totally different build/play style. Btw: Heavy armor gives you disadvantage on Stealth (for a Rogue?!) and doesn't let you put your DEX modifier to your armor.



Precision attack is the only one you should really use. You can take others to taste. Typically Riposte is the best for melee rogues, but since your ranged, stick to precision. Turning a miss into a hit adds 1d6+15 damage with potential to ensure sneak attack, while the others just add 1d8 damage.
So from a damage standpoint, the others only contribute as edge cases.

Agreed with PeteNutButter that Precision will be the one you will use most frequently.
For the two others, I'd suggest by order of preference...
- Menacing Attack: what's not to love? Defense for everyone (frightened so disadvantage on attacks) and safe distance for a turn (frightened so can't willingly move closer to you).
- Pushing/Disarm/Trip attack: can help you help allies with some kind of soft control at times.
- Evasive Manoeuvers: not mandatory by far on a character that has Cunning Action: Disengage and plan on staying at range most of the time. Can be great though if you get swarmed for some reason and want to Dash away.
Thanks for your suggestions. I think, I will take Precision, Menacing and Pushing attack.

Precision Attack for the reasons you already explained. I will mainly use them.

Menacing Attack can be really helpful, if the group is taking heavy damage. "When you hit a creature with a weapon attack" allows to fear up to three(!) targets (one per shot) on one turn. And with DEX 20 the DC is 18! That's a hard one.

Pushing Attack is something I always wanted to have. It's very situational, but very nice when fighting near cliffs, lava, gorges...



There is a breakpoint for when you should and shouldn't use SS. For the fighter build its enemy AC 20. Using SS against foes with an AC higher than 20 is a decrease in DPR.

As for if you should use SS after missing, perhaps its best to understand your chance of not landing sneak attack is the chance of missing all of your attacks multiplied by each other. So if you have a 50% miss chance 3 times, that's .5*.5*.5 or 12.5% chance to miss all 3 and miss your SA. If you have a 25% miss chance the chance you miss all 3 times is .25^3 which is about 1.6%.

My point is there is no clear rule, as it depends heavily on what your opponent's AC is, which as PCs we don't often know. I'd base the decision on whether to use SS or not on things like how important it is to do damage NOW vs the risk of missing on a case by case basis.
Thanks for your calculation. I always used the GWM Reference Table (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373572-GWM-Reference-Table).

Assuming:


attack bonus of +13 (Prof. = +5; DEX = +5; Archery Style = +2; weapon = +1)
SA damage of 29,5 (weapon= 3,5; SA = 6 x 3,5, DEX = 5)
normal attack damage of 8,5 (weapon = 3,5; DEX = 5)

the breakpoints for Sneak Attack are: RK 15 (normal) and RK 21 (with Advantage).
the breakpoints for normals attacks are: RK 25 (normal) and RK 26 (with Advantage).




One last question:

The only thing that somehow feels like a pity is that I can't get WIS saving throw proficiency until level 20. To be honest, I am not quite sure if we even play until that, because my table wants to treat that flexible. Maybe we stop at level 18/19. If we do that I would never get WIS proficiency.

So, I thought of taking resilient WIS (instead of CON) on Fighter (4) (total 15), because it feels like WIS is much more important in fights. WIS often takes creatures completely out of fight due Paralyze, etc. In contrast CON often only means damage, right?

The disadvantage is that if we play until level 20, Slippery mind is wasted and Rogue 15 "only" offers +1D6 SA damage. Then I could probably switch to Rogue (14) / Fighter (6) and pick up another Feat instead.

What do you think about that?

Kind regards!

[Citan]

One last question:

The only thing that somehow feels like a pity is that I can't get WIS saving throw proficiency until level 20. To be honest, I am not quite sure if we even play until that, because my table wants to treat that flexible. Maybe we stop at level 18/19. If we do that I would never get WIS proficiency.

So, I thought of taking resilient WIS (instead of CON) on Fighter (4) (total 15), because it feels like WIS is much more important in fights. WIS often takes creatures completely out of fight due Paralyze, etc. In contrast CON often only means damage, right?

The disadvantage is that if we play until level 20, Slippery mind is wasted and Rogue 15 "only" offers +1D6 SA damage. Then I could probably switch to Rogue (14) / Fighter (6) and pick up another Feat instead.

What do you think about that?

Kind regards!
Well... Didn't manage to understand yet if you intended to go Arcane Trickster or anoter archetype, but it woulnd't change things much.

The fact is that DEX, CON and WIS are all three important.
- DEX for the many direct-damage spells, and some restraining spells.
- CON for the many (many many) effects that creature can add to their melee attacks (among which being poisoned, unable to restore HP, paralyzed, debilitated for a turn, losing HP regularly etc).
- WIS for the many spells that can make you much less of a threat against one enemy (charmed) or several (frightened), or even worse turning on your friends.

With that said, you are already a level 12 character, so unless it was a bootstrapped character (like, starting at high level) you probably have a solid experience about how consistently you manage to keep at a good enough distance to avoid most of these threats...
- CON effects usually trigger on melee attacks, there are some nasty range spells but shouldn't be commonly used by enemies except big boss or lieutenants.
- WIS effects are for a majority, coming from spells having 60 feet range max (although from what I remember there are some spells with high range, and high-CR creatures may have abilities too).
- DEX effects, well, even DEX spells will rarely go over 90 feet and anyways you have max DEX+proficiency+Evasion so it's not like these are any real threat to you in the first place.
(Note that I'm putting aside most of CR 10+ creatures, which I don't know enough from memory, so my evaluations may be corrected as inaccurate by other people here more used to high-CR enemies).

If you feel rarely threatened in melee and don't plan on using concentration spells, you could safely grab Resilient:Wisdom. Should you finally get to that level 20, you could just grab something else than Rogue 15 if you feel that was a waste... Like Fighter 6 to grab yet another feat for fun...
Or you could instead take a level in Cleric "earlier" to profit from Bless all the remaining of your life, or Druid to have roleplay/exploring fun with Wild Shape...

If you plan on using concentration spells frequently or feel you face CON-targeting enemies often, being proficient in Constitution is definitely a good option.

Just pick whatever feels best for you based on your experience so far and what you can reasonably expect to face later (with as little metagaming as possible). :)

[bbrown12]

Well... Didn't manage to understand yet if you intended to go Arcane Trickster or anoter archetype, but it woulnd't change things much.

The fact is that DEX, CON and WIS are all three important.
- DEX for the many direct-damage spells, and some restraining spells.
- CON for the many (many many) effects that creature can add to their melee attacks (among which being poisoned, unable to restore HP, paralyzed, debilitated for a turn, losing HP regularly etc).
- WIS for the many spells that can make you much less of a threat against one enemy (charmed) or several (frightened), or even worse turning on your friends.

With that said, you are already a level 12 character, so unless it was a bootstrapped character (like, starting at high level) you probably have a solid experience about how consistently you manage to keep at a good enough distance to avoid most of these threats...
- CON effects usually trigger on melee attacks, there are some nasty range spells but shouldn't be commonly used by enemies except big boss or lieutenants.
- WIS effects are for a majority, coming from spells having 60 feet range max (although from what I remember there are some spells with high range, and high-CR creatures may have abilities too).
- DEX effects, well, even DEX spells will rarely go over 90 feet and anyways you have max DEX+proficiency+Evasion so it's not like these are any real threat to you in the first place.
(Note that I'm putting aside most of CR 10+ creatures, which I don't know enough from memory, so my evaluations may be corrected as inaccurate by other people here more used to high-CR enemies).

If you feel rarely threatened in melee and don't plan on using concentration spells, you could safely grab Resilient:Wisdom. Should you finally get to that level 20, you could just grab something else than Rogue 15 if you feel that was a waste... Like Fighter 6 to grab yet another feat for fun...
Or you could instead take a level in Cleric "earlier" to profit from Bless all the remaining of your life, or Druid to have roleplay/exploring fun with Wild Shape...

If you plan on using concentration spells frequently or feel you face CON-targeting enemies often, being proficient in Constitution is definitely a good option.

Just pick whatever feels best for you based on your experience so far and what you can reasonably expect to face later (with as little metagaming as possible). :)
Thanks man! You are a great help!

I am an Arcane Trickster. Starting with Rogue, I already have DEX save proficiency. The reason I didn't push INT ist that I mostly use Buffs and spells without save DC.

I can mostly avoid close combat and therefore don't get much melee damage. But my DM just started to use more spells for his encounters. And he prefers to target me with spells like "Hold Person" (WIS save or paralysed). Last night I missed the WIS save twice and therefore missed two turns completely. Pretty annoying...

At the moment, I intend to go with Resilient: WIS on Fighter (4) (like you suggested as well). Depending on my further experience I would maybe go for Resilient: CON on Rogue (12). Otherwise, maybe there will be some nice Feats in Xanathar's Guide to Everything or I could push CON/INT.

Kind regards!

[PeteNutButter]

Thanks man! You are a great help!

I am an Arcane Trickster. Starting with Rogue, I already have DEX save proficiency. The reason I didn't push INT ist that I mostly use Buffs and spells without save DC.

I can mostly avoid close combat and therefore don't get much melee damage. But my DM just started to use more spells for his encounters. And he prefers to target me with spells like "Hold Person" (WIS save or paralysed). Last night I missed the WIS save twice and therefore missed two turns completely. Pretty annoying...

At the moment, I intend to go with Resilient: WIS on Fighter (4) (like you suggested as well). Depending on my further experience I would maybe go for Resilient: CON on Rogue (12). Otherwise, maybe there will be some nice Feats in Xanathar's Guide to Everything or I could push CON/INT.

Kind regards!

You can only take resilient feat once. Both are important. For non-spell-casting archers I'd value wisdom over con, but since con saves are also concentration for spells, they are about equal. Rogue 15 is probably the best if you get to 20, as you still want haste.

[Citan]

You can only take resilient feat once. Both are important. For non-spell-casting archers I'd value wisdom over con, but since con saves are also concentration for spells, they are about equal. Rogue 15 is probably the best if you get to 20, as you still want haste.
Does he though?
Couldn't find that in the thread flow...

Of course, there are some goodness in both ways...
Basically, if OP already intended to use Haste, then it may in fact be better to rush Rogue first, because you can get Resilient:CON, then Haste, then Resilient:Wisdom.
The drawback is that you would only have 2 uses of Haste per day (read: only two encounters in which you get one more attack per round) for a very long time.

Now the true question is, does OP really want/need Haste?
Haste gives...
- double movement: apparently OP is managing fine so far to keep away.
- advantage on DEX saves: always nice, but OP already has pretty strong save.
- +2 AC: mostly useless since OP manages to avoid threads (although it obviously helps against ranged attacks).
- extra action on Disengage (mostly useless), Dash (mostly overkill), Attack (default choice).
- and a full turn paralyzed when effect ends, which should be not that dangerous unless enemy forces manage to anticipate it.
Plus the extra 1d6 SA from getting up to that level.

Compared to that, Fighter's Extra Attack is every turn all day long, does not use concentration (so he can use Blur for example) and also bring manoeuvers and feat along the way.

I don't think there is one option objectively better than other, just a matter of taste and gambling on which one would be the most useful in practice...
If OP had been a "classic" melee Rogue, I would totally have recommended the Haste way... From what he says, I have the feeling only the Attack part would really benefit him in all situations.
Now, people here tend to focus on Haste as a combat buff, but it can also be put to good use in exploration/infiltration situations, so there is that too. :)

[PeteNutButter]

Does he though?
Couldn't find that in the thread flow...

Of course, there are some goodness in both ways...
Basically, if OP already intended to use Haste, then it may in fact be better to rush Rogue first, because you can get Resilient:CON, then Haste, then Resilient:Wisdom.
The drawback is that you would only have 2 uses of Haste per day (read: only two encounters in which you get one more attack per round) for a very long time.

Now the true question is, does OP really want/need Haste?
Haste gives...
- double movement: apparently OP is managing fine so far to keep away.
- advantage on DEX saves: always nice, but OP already has pretty strong save.
- +2 AC: mostly useless since OP manages to avoid threads (although it obviously helps against ranged attacks).
- extra action on Disengage (mostly useless), Dash (mostly overkill), Attack (default choice).
- and a full turn paralyzed when effect ends, which should be not that dangerous unless enemy forces manage to anticipate it.
Plus the extra 1d6 SA from getting up to that level.

Compared to that, Fighter's Extra Attack is every turn all day long, does not use concentration (so he can use Blur for example) and also bring manoeuvers and feat along the way.

I don't think there is one option objectively better than other, just a matter of taste and gambling on which one would be the most useful in practice...
If OP had been a "classic" melee Rogue, I would totally have recommended the Haste way... From what he says, I have the feeling only the Attack part would really benefit him in all situations.
Now, people here tend to focus on Haste as a combat buff, but it can also be put to good use in exploration/infiltration situations, so there is that too. :)

I said rogue 15 if you get to 20... :P. As in rogue 15/fighter 5 is better than rogue 14/fighter 6.

I’m the one that proved out extra attack is better. Haste and another d6 in SA are probably better than another ASI as a capstone.

[Citan]

I said rogue 15 if you get to 20... :P. As in rogue 15/fighter 5 is better than rogue 14/fighter 6.

I’m the one that proved out extra attack is better. Haste and another d6 in SA are probably better than another ASI as a capstone.
But that was exactly the point: OP was asking himself if it was worth securing WIS saves now, at the risk of making Rogue 15 redundant.

That's what this was all about: whether to take Resilient: CON because you plan on using Haste very often, or better take Resilient: WIS?
Hence the analysis on Haste benefit.
And if he takes Resilient: Wisdom, then Fighter 6 is much better because the only net gain would be 1d6.

You seem to have posted from memory for some reason so let me refresh it for you: Haste you can get with Rogue 14. So OP will get Haste anyways if he so wishes...

But Haste is the only real reason to go with Constitution saves for a character that actively avoids melee attacks, especially considering OP feedback on DM tactics, unless...

1. DM decides to metagame and stops using WIS-targeting spells (because OP would have taken Resilient:Wisdom) to switch and start actively using CON-targeting ones. But then I'd argue there is probably a DM-player relationship problem. The only low-mid level one that could be really annoying for OP is Blindness, but casting range is 30 feet.
2. Or there is a high chance party is gonna face soon high-CR creatures which tend to have more CON-targeting effects than WIS-ones (as I said, I don't know all high-level creatures so feel free to bring your own knowledge on this).

And if you get it at level 19 (because you went up to Fighter 5 first), it means you managed very well without it so far, so, really, why learn and use it when you have so better spells at your disposal? Especially with Magical Ambush: Slow, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern will be much more potent uses of those two slots than just one more attack per turn... Plus the fact that if you "block" yourself from Resilient: Constitution, you can still greatly improve your concentration saves with Warcaster.

Hence the logic: if you take Resilient: Constitution now, since it would be mostly useful for Haste, it makes it logical to up Rogue first to at least use it as soon as possible, so first go Rogue up to 14 (then might as well go up to 15) before going Fighter.
If otherwise you don't care about Haste, Resilient: Wisdom will bring a much greater benefit for all adventures to come (barring bad DM mindset)...
Thus making Rogue 15 mostly useless...
Thus making Fighter 6 much better, especially for OP character: Mage Slayer or Warcaster would be the obvious feats, but there is also Martial Adept, Healer, Tough, Skulker, Alert that can be very useful for OP build.

Also, you should not conflate yourself with expressions such as "I'm the one that proved out extra attack is better", it's disserving you. :)

[bbrown12]

Thanks for your replies again!

@PeteNutButter: For a moment I was also confused. Thought you changed your mind. Glad you didn't, because the question, "Should I go for Rogue or Fighter first?" was the one I was unable to decide. ;)


I said rogue 15 if you get to 20... :P. As in rogue 15/fighter 5 is better than rogue 14/fighter 6.

I’m the one that proved out extra attack is better. Haste and another d6 in SA are probably better than another ASI as a capstone.
Haste is on Rogue (14). The extra +1D6 Sneak Attack damage comes togehter with Slippery Mind on Rogue (15).

The question was, whether or not it would be worth it to go for WIS save proficiency undependently from Slippery Mind (with an ASI from Righter/Rogue), because spells like Hold Person, etc. suck and my DM likes them casting on me. But that would be a total waste of Slippery Mind. For that reason and because I don't know if I will ever hit level 20 (Rogue 15) I was thinking of going for Rogue 14 / Fighter 6, knowing that I would lose +1D6 Sneak Damage (on level 20!). In contrast I would have another ASI to spend (and I hope there will be nice ones with the new Rulebook that is coming in november).

Do think that would be a reasonable deal?

[Citan]

Thanks for your replies again!

@PeteNutButter: For a moment I was also confused. Thought you changed your mind. Glad you didn't, because the question, "Should I go for Rogue or Fighter first?" was the one I was unable to decide. ;)


Haste is on Rogue (14). The extra +1D6 Sneak Attack damage comes togehter with Slippery Mind on Rogue (15).

The question was, whether or not it would be worth it to go for WIS save proficiency undependently from Slippery Mind (with an ASI from Righter/Rogue), because spells like Hold Person, etc. suck and my DM likes them casting on me. But that would be a total waste of Slippery Mind. For that reason and because I don't know if I will ever hit level 20 (Rogue 15) I was thinking of going for Rogue 14 / Fighter 6, knowing that I would lose +1D6 Sneak Damage (on level 20!). In contrast I would have another ASI to spend (and I hope there will be nice ones with the new Rulebook that is coming in november).

Do think that would be a reasonable deal?
Well, see my edited post just above.
Unless you believe your DM is a jerk that would instantly switch tactics to target the last "strong" save you are not proficient into (provided he manage to target you in the first place), taking Resilient: Wisdom and go Fighter immediately is the best choice since you seem much more focused on weapon damage than on mass debuffs. Unless you feel that Haste's extra movement would really help you, even if only two times a day. Or you decide to switch focus and start using Magical Ambush for some nasty tricks, in which case getting 3rd level spells and either Warcaster or Resilient: Constitution should be your priority. :)

[bbrown12]

Now the true question is, does OP really want/need Haste?
Haste gives...
- double movement: apparently OP is managing fine so far to keep away.
- advantage on DEX saves: always nice, but OP already has pretty strong save.
- +2 AC: mostly useless since OP manages to avoid threads (although it obviously helps against ranged attacks).
- extra action on Disengage (mostly useless), Dash (mostly overkill), Attack (default choice).
- and a full turn paralyzed when effect ends, which should be not that dangerous unless enemy forces manage to anticipate it.
Plus the extra 1d6 SA from getting up to that level.


Well, see my edited post just above.
Unless you feel that Haste's extra movement would really help you, even if only two times a day.
Hey Citan! Thanks again for your great explanation and help!

Have you also considered that Haste allows two Sneak Attacks a round? That's because Sneak Attack is possible "once per turn" (in contrast to some abilities that are restricted "on your turn"). You take the "Haste attack" for the first Sneak Attack and use your "normal action" for a Ready Action to attack on an enemy's turn. That's actually a big benefit - but only two times a day. Actually, this is part of the reason, why it felt/feels so hard to decide between Fighter/Rogue.

Fighter 5 BIG Pros:
- Superior Dice (4x/Short Rest)
- ASI
- Extra Attack (always)

Rogue 15 BIG Pros:
- Extra ASI
- +2D6 Sneak Attack Damage
- Haste
- Slippery Mind

Though we are using A-flexible-vendor-system-for-magic-consumables (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?516785-DM-Help-Faer%FBn-s-Vendors-A-flexible-vendor-system-for-magic-consumables&p=6996510#post6996510), so I can relatively easy buy some Haste scrolls. But I have to roll DC13 to cast them succesfully.

Btw: I don't want to reject the things, we already discussed. I just wanted to explain, why I was pointing out Haste so much.

[djreynolds]

I think you need to ask yourself 2 things

What do I need now, versus what do I need in the future.

If your DM is targeting you with certain spells to keep the game a challenge, that's okay.

Can you get by til level 15 slippery mind

Do you need precision now to land sharp shooter consistently?

Who else is in your party? Clerics have lesser restoration, bless, protection from evil.

It is a tough decision to make because you know slippery mind is right there at 15, but resilient wisdom is there at 12.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you grab resilient wisdom now, perfectly fine as it is the game making you, it does seems pointless to try to go past rogue 12. IMO

So you could grab resilient con and just suck it up and lean on your party

You could grab magic initiate wizard and get the resistance cantrip and protection from evil

You could grab resilient wisdom now, and after just begin your career as a fighter

_____________------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would grab the lucky feat now. You can reroll saves and attack die 3xs a day. This should, IMO, act as a very good stop gate that will allow you some space to achieve the character you want.

[Citan]

Hey Citan! Thanks again for your great explanation and help!

Have you also considered that Haste allows two Sneak Attacks a round? That's because Sneak Attack is possible "once per turn" (in contrast to some abilities that are restricted "on your turn"). You take the "Haste attack" for the first Sneak Attack and use your "normal action" for a Ready Action to attack on an enemy's turn. That's actually a big benefit - but only two times a day. Actually, this is part of the reason, why it felt/feels so hard to decide between Fighter/Rogue.

Fighter 5 BIG Pros:
- Superior Dice (4x/Short Rest)
- ASI
- Extra Attack (always)

Rogue 15 BIG Pros:
- Extra ASI
- +2D6 Sneak Attack Damage
- Haste
- Slippery Mind

Though we are using A-flexible-vendor-system-for-magic-consumables (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?516785-DM-Help-Faer%FBn-s-Vendors-A-flexible-vendor-system-for-magic-consumables&p=6996510#post6996510), so I can relatively easy buy some Haste scrolls. But I have to roll DC13 to cast them succesfully.

Btw: I don't want to reject the things, we already discussed. I just wanted to explain, why I was pointing out Haste so much.
True you are right I definitely forgot about that smart use of Haste... Definitely a big improvement in potential damage per round.

Dont know if this would be big enough to pick Haste first instead of Extra Attack (because still 2 per days)... I suppose YMMV...
To be honest I personally would go Rogue 15 first but more because I love Magical Ambush paired with Slow than for Haste... : )
For a martial though having Action Surge (another Sneak Attack or opening Blur) and Precisions on short rest would probably be better...

[Asmotherion]

Hey there,

I am playing a ranged rogue/fighter with the following stats.

Race: Human: Variant
Class: Rogue(11)/Fighter(1)
Ability Scores: ST 8 | DEX 15+1 | CON 13+1 | WIS 12 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Style: 1H-Crossbow, Bonus Action for bonus attack with Sharpshooter (-5 hit / +10 damage).

Level 1: Rogue (1) - Crossbow Expert (human variant), Sneak Attack 1D6
Level 2: Fighter (1) - Archery Style (+2 range attack bonus)
Level 3: Rogue (2) - Cunning Action
Level 4: Rogue (3) - Arcane Trickster, Sneak Attack 2D6,
Level 5: Rogue (4) - ASI: Sharpshooter (no cover, long range, -5 hit /+10 dmg)
Level 6: Rogue (5) - Sneak Attack 3D6, Uncanny Dodge
Level 7: Rogue (6) - Expertise
Level 8: Rogue (7) - Sneak Attack 4D6, level 2 spells (Invisibility, Mirror Image)
Level 9: Rogue (8) - ASI: DEX 18, spell: Darkvision
Level 10: Rogue (9) - Second Wind, Sneak Attack 5D6
Level 11: Rogue (10) - ASI: DEX 20
Level 12: Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent, Sneak Attack 6D6

1.) Would you prefert continueing Rogue oder Fighter?
2.) How much damage increase is an Extra attack? Is it really that much? Are there any calculations about that? Consider that I am using my Bonus Action to shoot with Sharpshooter (-5 Hit / +10 Damage). Is anybody able to do calculations considering a) increasing Sneak, b) Sharpshooter c) with/without Extra Attack?


I would be happy about some inspiration and help!

Regards!

Well, you already have a very good Archer/Arcane Trickster on your hands. Not only are you a Crossbow Expert, but you are also a very good Dagger Thrower. I'd say to stay rogue or multiclass into a pure caster for one reason only: Spell Progression.

With 13 Charisma we are probably looking at Sorcerer if you want a caster, and Dragon Sorcerer would actually do wonders to your AC with a permanent Mage Armor-like effect. You'd also be able to pick 4 more cantrips, and a couple more 1st level spells.

Otherwise, a couple of Warlock Levels for a permanent Darkvision through the Devil Sight Invocation (since I saw it as a spell in your spell list, and it's a pitty to use a spell slot on) that works in magical darkness, and then casting Darkness on one of your arrows could be a very great combo for you (that said, you will eventually have blindsence, but Magical Darkvision is still superior, especially for a Ranged Attacker). However, avoid it if most of your other party members are melee combatants that relly on not being blinded (medieval logistics show that 90% of melee combatants do so :P). You can also grab Mask of Many Faces and coupled with Expertese in Deception (if you went for it) you can be a master spy... just some suggestions :P

Finally, what would do wonders to this already great Archer is to buff his Dexterity... and I mean a lot. Aim for a minimum of 18, if not 20. If you are constantly Sharpshooting, you will be usually sharpmissing with a Dexterity like that :P

PS: my bad, I though the scores listed were the final scores, and then saw that your Dex score was already 20. Sorry for that XD

[bbrown12]

Well, you already have a very good Archer/Arcane Trickster on your hands. Not only are you a Crossbow Expert, but you are also a very good Dagger Thrower. I'd say to stay rogue or multiclass into a pure caster for one reason only: Spell Progression.
Hey Asmotherion! Thanks for your suggestions, but unfortunately I am restricted to Fighter and Rogue by my DM. I guess, you didn't read my latest update, right? Sorry for that!



True you are right I definitely forgot about that smart use of Haste... Definitely a big improvement in potential damage per round.

Dont know if this would be big enough to pick Haste first instead of Extra Attack (because still 2 per days)... I suppose YMMV...
To be honest I personally would go Rogue 15 first but more because I love Magical Ambush paired with Slow than for Haste... : )
For a martial though having Action Surge (another Sneak Attack or opening Blur) and Precisions on short rest would probably be better...
Yeah, Slow really is a nice one. The problem is that I only have 12 INT, so my spell DC is 14 and won't rise, if I don't spend ASI's for pushing INT. So, even with disadvantage there is quite a good chance for creatures to succeed the WIS save.


Going half way:

To be honest, I have never had such problems deciding between two classes. Both have things I don't want to miss. And I want them both early (Rogue = 3rd Level Spells. Fighter = Superior Dice). That's why I thought of stopping fighter on half way with Superior Dice (Level 14) and going for Rogue afterwards without Extra Attack. But I absolutely understand that from a damage perspective this doesn't make sense. But talking from Superior Dice and Haste we somehow also speak of a "damage perspektive". So my former idea was to mix both.

The big advantage is that I can buy scrolls like Haste/Slow in our campaign, although I need to make a DC 13 check to successfully cast them. On the other hand, if I can cast level 3 spells, I don't even have to make that check what makes Rogue 13 even more useful.

The Superior Dice are important to me, because I like to have more flexibility and possibilities in fighting. It's not just the hit chance percentage. There might not be dozens of situations in that you need Menacing Shot (Fear) or Pushing Shot (15 feet push), but IF I find yourself in such a situation, I will absolutely celebrate that. Furthermore, if you can combine Precision Shot with the optional rule of Disarming (DMG 271) in which a creature that has been hit by an attack (Precision attack included) must make a STR/DEX save or is being disarmed. That means a theoretically very high disarming success chance and gives you a potentially fourth maneuver for free.

You guys must be on the best way of becoming crazy with me. Glad you didn't yet. Thanks for that! ;)

[Citan]

Hey Asmotherion! Thanks for your suggestions, but unfortunately I am restricted to Fighter and Rogue by my DM. I guess, you didn't read my latest update, right? Sorry for that!



Yeah, Slow really is a nice one. The problem is that I only have 12 INT, so my spell DC is 14 and won't rise, if I don't spend ASI's for pushing INT. So, even with disadvantage there is quite a good chance for creatures to succeed the WIS save.


Going half way:

To be honest, I have never had such problems deciding between two classes. Both have things I don't want to miss. And I want them both early (Rogue = 3rd Level Spells. Fighter = Superior Dice). That's why I thought of stopping fighter on half way with Superior Dice (Level 14) and going for Rogue afterwards without Extra Attack. But I absolutely understand that from a damage perspective this doesn't make sense. But talking from Superior Dice and Haste we somehow also speak of a "damage perspektive". So my former idea was to mix both.

The big advantage is that I can buy scrolls like Haste/Slow in our campaign, although I need to make a DC 13 check to successfully cast them. On the other hand, if I can cast level 3 spells, I don't even have to make that check what makes Rogue 13 even more useful.

WUT?????
If that bit about having a potential regular supply of Haste scrolls is true, then your choice has been made for you (unless you tell me that each scroll would be like 1000 gp ^^).
Grab Resilient: Constitution (or Warcaster if you wield a shield, I don't remember) ASAP as Rogue 12, go Rogue 13 then hack away as you switch back Fighter up to 3, then Rogue 15 for that Wisdom proficiency, then back Fighter for another ASI and finish.
That is definitely the best way to go, unless you expect not being able to sustain a steady amoung of scrolls because its too expensive or it's actually hard to get to the shop that sells them (like, there is ONE place in the whole country, and you don't have safe place to hide your stock during travel).
Otherwise? Decide from now on you will keep enough of your earnings to keep a stock of Haste scrolls at the ready on yourself, enough to last two weeks of adventuring days with an expected 5 encounters per day.

This is like having an improved version of Extra Attack feature. Plus you will have Action Surge if you really want to cast Haste and still "get your normal full turn".

As for Slow...
Honestly I don't know of many creatures having more than +2 bonus to WIS saves.
Against your DC (expected when you get Slow: 8+2+5 = 15) creatures with no better bonus will need a roll of at least 13, so have only ~15% chance to avoid the effect with Magical Ambush. Seems good enough to me to risk it. :) So in your place I'd also grab a good stock of it too.
Chances to affect nobody are extremely low. Worst case (you didn't affect the creatures you really wanted, although you affected others)? You lost an action and a decent amount of GP, for a lackluster effect. On next turn, you can still decide to keep it active at least until affected creatures are dead, or ditch it to instead cast Haste (if you still have Action Surge even better, you can "swap" on the fly).

[djreynolds]

Grab the lucky feat, it will fill 2 rolls

Save buffer and attack buffer... this way you are not pressured to grab battlemaster for precision rightnow or resilient whatever.

You cannot cover all the bases, you have friends for that

Lucky is a great feat, slippery mind is a few levels away... suck it up. Someone has lesser restoration, heroism calm emotions.

Seriously. Lucky can cover help for now, and still 3xs a day can be useful to you

Put those teammates to work

[Citan]

Grab the lucky feat, it will fill 2 rolls

Save buffer and attack buffer... this way you are not pressured to grab battlemaster for precision rightnow or resilient whatever.

You cannot cover all the bases, you have friends for that

Lucky is a great feat, slippery mind is a few levels away... suck it up. Someone has lesser restoration, heroism calm emotions.

Seriously. Lucky can cover help for now, and still 3xs a day can be useful to you

Put those teammates to work
Seriously? OP has a way to get proficiency in the three most important attributes, with one (Resilient: Constitution) being especially important for someone that wants to self-Haste on a regular basis, and you'd rather advise him "super-advantage" three times per day?

I fail to see the logic really (not about raw benefit of Lucky, of it being overall better than proficiency in one save, in the particular context of OP build). ;)
Now taking it Lucky as the last feat, yeah, why not? I'd argue there are much better options, but Lucky has versatility.

[djreynolds]

Seriously? OP has a way to get proficiency in the three most important attributes, with one (Resilient: Constitution) being especially important for someone that wants to self-Haste on a regular basis, and you'd rather advise him "super-advantage" three times per day?

I fail to see the logic really (not about raw benefit of Lucky, of it being overall better than proficiency in one save, in the particular context of OP build). ;)
Now taking it Lucky as the last feat, yeah, why not? I'd argue there are much better options, but Lucky has versatility.

I hear you loud and clear.

Here's the thing. Is this campaign going to level 20? How often is he targeted with hold person?

But the issue is playing in the moment, and playing in the future. What does the OP need right now?

Perhaps he needs resilient wisdom right now. But grabbing it now ruins a possible future of getting slippery mind and changes his build totally

Grabbing resilient con is awesome and good idea but it seems the OP also wants BM maneuvers

IMO grabbing lucky allows the OP to sit back and say.

Do I really need fighter in this build? Do really need precision to augment sharp shooter

Do I really need resilient con now?

Do I need this or that?

Lucky could possibly fix the little issues and give the OP that little edge.

And lucky is always useful.

It seems the OP is playing in that higher tier where saves are very important and its tough to decide between help for con or wisdom saves. And ACs are getting higher, so having precision is nice also.

Its tough to ask that cleric to spam bless just for you all the time.

Lucky might be more beneficial. The op may select resilient con, but he's still running away from the dragon

[PeteNutButter]

I hear you loud and clear.

Here's the thing. Is this campaign going to level 20? How often is he targeted with hold person?

But the issue is playing in the moment, and playing in the future. What does the OP need right now?

Perhaps he needs resilient wisdom right now. But grabbing it now ruins a possible future of getting slippery mind and changes his build totally

Grabbing resilient con is awesome and good idea but it seems the OP also wants BM maneuvers

IMO grabbing lucky allows the OP to sit back and say.

Do I really need fighter in this build? Do really need precision to augment sharp shooter

Do I really need resilient con now?

Do I need this or that?

Lucky could possibly fix the little issues and give the OP that little edge.

And lucky is always useful.

It seems the OP is playing in that higher tier where saves are very important and its tough to decide between help for con or wisdom saves. And ACs are getting higher, so having precision is nice also.

Its tough to ask that cleric to spam bless just for you all the time.

Lucky might be more beneficial. The op may select resilient con, but he's still running away from the dragon

The effects of Lucky as a stand-in for resilient aren't able to keep up with end game DCs. We are talking about a character who is going to be fighting monsters in the mid-high teens in CR, trying to make a check at DC 17-20 with Plus 2. Advantage just doesn't help all that much. Adding your proficiency is much more effective at higher levels.

As for the haste trick, remember that haste action does not allow the ready action. Haste is much better on a rogue that does NOT have extra attack as you have to use your main action to ready, and thus only get one attack. With haste ready strategy, you forgo your reaction (no uncanny dodging) and trade your two attacks on your turn for 1 shot at sneak attack again. Is it worth it? Usually, but it isn't without it's drawbacks.

To correct my statement before, I was AFB, and thinking ATs got level 3 spells at level 15. Since it's level 14, it's a bit of a toss up what you do with your last level.

[djreynolds]

But he may never live to those higher levels.

He might get eaten by a dragon, because though he passed his con save...... he failed his wisdom save

That's an aspect of character building and design we all forget. What do I need to just survive? Its an exciting part of the game the OP might be missing out on.

For example, HAM is great at lower levels but considered useless at higher levels..... but one has to get to those higher levels

So right now this player needs con save help as much wisdom save help and help landing his attacks.

IMO, play now in the moment and enjoy it.

If you sit around planning for the next level up and the next feat... you will miss out.

The thing about lucky is it never goes out of favor, you can use it.

Yes he needs resilient con and later resilient wisdom or slippery mind........ but right now it seems the OP needs help with both.

This what I love about the game, choices.

What will benefit me now,

what will benefit me later,

how can I work around this

Here is my advice, and it may or may not make sense: "Do not count your chickens before they hatch."

And good luck

[bbrown12]

Just again: Thanks for all your replies! I am happy being able to discuss my character in such detail!


Grab the lucky feat, it will fill 2 rolls [...]
So right now this player needs con save help as much wisdom save help and help landing his attacks.

IMO, play now in the moment and enjoy it.

If you sit around planning for the next level up and the next feat... you will miss out.

The thing about lucky is it never goes out of favor, you can use it.
I understand your arguments and I am grateful to you for offering just another perspective. You are somehow right, but to be honest the possibility to reroll one dice three times per long rest (what is almost a level in our campaign) doesn't sound like fun. It's something I would only pick in the later levels to be honest. But again, thanks for that. It's just think there are stronger feats. And I like planning my character to perfectly meet my requirements/ideas of playstyle.



WUT?????
If that bit about having a potential regular supply of Haste scrolls is true, then your choice has been made for you (unless you tell me that each scroll would be like 1000 gp ^^).
Grab Resilient: Constitution (or Warcaster if you wield a shield, I don't remember) ASAP as Rogue 12, go Rogue 13 then hack away as you switch back Fighter up to 3, then Rogue 15 for that Wisdom proficiency, then back Fighter for another ASI and finish.
That is definitely the best way to go, unless you expect not being able to sustain a steady amoung of scrolls because its too expensive or it's actually hard to get to the shop that sells them (like, there is ONE place in the whole country, and you don't have safe place to hide your stock during travel).
Otherwise? Decide from now on you will keep enough of your earnings to keep a stock of Haste scrolls at the ready on yourself, enough to last two weeks of adventuring days with an expected 5 encounters per day.

This is like having an improved version of Extra Attack feature. Plus you will have Action Surge if you really want to cast Haste and still "get your normal full turn".

Buying scrolls:

Hehe...sounds like you are a fan of it. ;) Well, as I said we are using Faerûn's Vendors - A flexible vendor system for magic consumables (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/202047/Faerns-Vendors--A-flexible-vendor-system-for-magic-consumables). Spell scrolls of the 3rd level cost 200G what is somehow nothing to worry about. But it's not possible to buy as much as you want to. I think, I will be able to buy 1-2 per level. But it somehow depends on getting into the next town, because chances of availability of magic consumables depend on the settlement size (item availability depends on rarity and settlement size). In addition, for each settlement you can only buy items up to a a specific amount of gold per level. But regardless of that, I am pretty sure that my DM will limit that to 1-2 scrolls/level.


Group setup:

Just for your information. Our group consists of a Barbarian, a Cleric and a Monk. Until last time, we had a Sorcerer that used to buff myself with Haste. But he died and has been replaced by the monk. So, I am the only character that is able to cast arcane magic! For the end game, the Monk and the Cleric are definitely going to stay. Maybe we will get another arcane caster. But that's not for sure.



As for the haste trick, remember that haste action does not allow the ready action. Haste is much better on a rogue that does NOT have extra attack as you have to use your main action to ready, and thus only get one attack. With haste ready strategy, you forgo your reaction (no uncanny dodging) and trade your two attacks on your turn for 1 shot at sneak attack again. Is it worth it? Usually, but it isn't without it's drawbacks.

To correct my statement before, I was AFB, and thinking ATs got level 3 spells at level 15. Since it's level 14, it's a bit of a toss up what you do with your last level.

Geting 3rd level spells:

No worries, you offer a lot of reasonable perspectives which I most didn't even think of. Thanks for that, man! Level 3 spells are even earlier on Rogue 13. But I get the next "non-illusion/enchantment spell" on Rogue 14 where I can pick up haste.

Now for the Haste variant: The drawbacks you describe are not that little. I didn't even think of losing a possible third attack. I just treated haste like a "pure buff". And as you showed me, it is definitely not. The question is, if it would make sense to get 3rd level spells for the Rogue, so I can use scrolls - especially, because there is no other arcane caster for the moment.


Considering 3 options:

Concerning group setup, flexibility, playstyle and damage output there are actually three options to go on:


Fighter 5 --> Rogue 15:
This is the one that offers Extra Attack asap (character level 16). The downside is, that I won't be able to cast 3rd level spells. That means no "Slow" (combined with Magical Ambush) and no Haste, because we have no arcane caster.
Rogue 13 --> Fighter 3/6 --> Rogue 15 (afterwards: rest of Fighter):
a) Like @Cital suggested, going Rogue 13 to get CON proficiency, 3rd level spells and +1d6 damage on total character level 14. Afterwards Fighter 3 for Battlemaster Maneuvers (level 16). Then Rogue 14 for Haste/Slow (level 17) and maybe Slippery Mind (level 18). And at last, Fighter 5 for Extra Attack.
b)There also would be the option to still go straight foward to Fighter 6 (getting Resilient: WIS on Fighter 4 and Extra Attack on Fighter 5 -> total level 18). Otherwise, if I decide to go Rogue (15) instead, it somehow leaves out Extra Attack, because I will get it only for the very last part of the game (level 20).
Rogue 15 --> Fighter 5:
This variant gets CON proficieny, 3rd level spells, +2D6 SA damage and Slippery Mind until character level 16. Afterwards Superior Dice (18) and Extra Attack (20).

Again, you totally convinced me, that Extra Attack is the strongest damage output regarding raw damage. So, Fighter 5 / Rogue 15 is definitely the way to go. But like @djreynolds said, it should be considered, which class offers the most fun in short-term.

Extra Attack only makes sense, if I get it by now (level 16), otherwise I am getting it on level 18/20. So, the question is "How much fun do I get from Extra Attack compared with the other Rogue abilities?" I like Spellcasting, Magical Ambush and we have no arcane caster anymore. I also like the Superior Dice Maneuvers, because I hope being able to use them in a cool way (and of course turn misses into hits). I can't have anything, so I am considering to go for Extra Attack later (picking it on level 18/20), because it makes everything just so damn difficult. And to be honest, without multiclassing the Rogue wouldn't even get Extra Attack anyway. And the class also works fine and is quite strong, because of its consistent damage.


Conclusion:

Combining your advices all together leads me to the following conclusion: Another breakpoint on the Rogue class is Rogue 13 (3rd level spells + SA damage).Taking the 2nd option (see above) would enrich my character with cool extra features from Fighter 3/4/5 at a point, on that the Rogue class is going to get "boring" and misses cool features:

- Rogue 13 offers 3rd level spellcasting, what is HUGE, because I can buy scrolls.
- Fighter 3 offers Superior Dice, what is also a BIG advantage for my class.
- Afterwards I can decide, whether or not I want to go for Rogue 14/15 (picking Haste/Slow + Slippery Mind) or Fighter 4+5/6 (Resilient: WIS + Extra Attack + ASI). The last option would still offer Extra Attack on a bearable point (level 18).

This build would be all-time flexible. I could react to changes within our group (maybe another caster joining) and the cool features would be distributed evenly.


Doestn that sound like a perfect compromise? :)

[djreynolds]

Are you allowed to use UA material?

The monster hunter fighter archetype can use superiority dice to augment mental saves... and extra 1d8

Might be worth a glance at

I'm living vicariously through your build, its looks very fun.

[bbrown12]

Are you allowed to use UA material?

The monster hunter fighter archetype can use superiority dice to augment mental saves... and extra 1d8

Might be worth a glance at

I'm living vicariously through your build, its looks very fun.
Thanks! But unfortunately our DM doesn't allow it. That would offer even more powerful options.

[Citan]

Conclusion:

Combining your advices all together leads me to the following conclusion: Another breakpoint on the Rogue class is Rogue 13 (3rd level spells + SA damage).Taking the 2nd option (see above) would enrich my character with cool extra features from Fighter 3/4/5 at a point, on that the Rogue class is going to get "boring" and misses cool features:

- Rogue 13 offers 3rd level spellcasting, what is HUGE, because I can buy scrolls.
- Fighter 3 offers Superior Dice, what is also a BIG advantage for my class.
- Afterwards I can decide, whether or not I want to go for Rogue 14/15 (picking Haste/Slow + Slippery Mind) or Fighter 4+5/6 (Resilient: WIS + Extra Attack + ASI). The last option would still offer Extra Attack on a bearable point (level 18).

This build would be all-time flexible. I could react to changes within our group (maybe another caster joining) and the cool features would be distributed evenly.


Doestn that sound like a perfect compromise? :)
So for now go Rogue 13 then Fighter 3 then take a step back and ponder the next move?
Yeah, since you are not that much into Haste, it seems the perfect move. :)
Just note that you will still have a "defining choice" to make on your Rogue 12 ASI: if you pick a Resilient at that time, you condemn the other, pulling you back in the "last level" conundrum. ^^
If you have another use for that ASI than improving your saves with a proficiency (like, Mage Slayer for example? Or Ritual Caster: Wizard maybe ^^), then it may be best to take it now so you still have full choice on Resilient later...

Glad we did help you clear up your thoughts and draw a clear direction to follow. Have fun ;)

[bbrown12]

editing post...

[bid]

Rogue 12 (13) - Resilient: CON
Fighter 4 (17) - Resilient: WIS

Woah! Slow down!

You can't get the same feat twice.

[Citan]

Woah! Slow down!

You can't get the same feat twice.
Yeah, and he knows that too in fact, since that was basically the whole point of the last 15 posts...:smallbiggrin:

My guess is that he wrote too fast, or he spent so much time on this that his brain short-fused for a time... XD

[bbrown12]

You can't get the same feat twice.
Ugh...you are totally right. Damn. Forgot about that.


Yeah, and he knows that too in fact, since that was basically the whole point of the last 15 posts...:smallbiggrin:

My guess is that he wrote too fast, or he spent so much time on this that his brain short-fused for a time... XD
Hehe...to be honest, I am at the hospital at the moment with a tonsillitis. So, I have time... ;-)

Well, maybe I misunderstood you due to language problems. I already noticed @PeteNutButter telling that, but you answered him the following, so I thought this would be wrong and I can pick Resilient twice. But no offense! I guess, I misunderstood you.


Does he though?
Couldn't find that in the thread flow...

Of course, there are some goodness in both ways...
Basically, if OP already intended to use Haste, then it may in fact be better to rush Rogue first, because you can get Resilient:CON, then Haste, then Resilient:Wisdom.

Anyway, thanks for your comments! :)

[SharkForce]

you could go warcaster instead of resilient con. obviously, it only improves your con saves to keep concentration, and not, say... resisting poison, plus it doesn't allow for the same high difficulty checks (you won't have even a theoretical chance of making a DC 26 save, should it come up, for example - like if a dragon breath hits you or something), but it will help. also, it'll give you one heck of an opportunity attack if you have a weapon cantrip...

[bid]

My guess is that he wrote too fast, or he spent so much time on this that his brain short-fused for a time... XD
Prolly brain fart yeah.

Also because slippery mind (rogue 15) does the same as resilient(Wis).

[bbrown12]

Maybe, I ran was a bit obsessed with my build. ;) But - as I said - I have time at the moment and it's a tough decision. So, thanks for your patience!

I guess, the questions are:


Do I want to get 3rd level spells? (Rogue 13, then Fighter6)
Pro: I can buy scrolls (e.g. Haste)
Con: Very late Extra Attack with Rogue 15 (level 20). "Only" two saving throw proficiencies with Rogue 13.
Do I want to collect the three main saving throws (DEX, CON, WIS)? (Rogue 15, then Fighter 5)
Pro: Awesome survival abilities on high levels. +2D6 SA damage. 3rd level spells included.
Con: Very late Extra Attack with Rogue 15 (level 20). Late Superior Dice on Level 18.
Or do I prefer dealing consistent damage wirh Extra Attack at an early/mid level? (Fighter 5, then Rogue 15)
Pro: Good damage output early on with Rogue 11/Fighter 5. Compromise: Rogue 13/Fighter 5.
Con: Getting 3rd level spells very late (level 18). "Only" two saving throw proficiencies.


I rethought the idea of my build. What do I want to be good in? The answer was: "I want to be a stealthy skill monkey with good martial fighting abilities and some spells as the cherry on the cream topping."

Haste: Spells are cool, but I cannot be good at anything. And I will never be a full caster - not weven half way. I'm a Rogue! So, there is no room for a "self buffing Haste machine". That's not my job. And the reality is, that the job is not done with getting Haste. There is a whole rat's tail coming with it. I would need to avoid damage in combat more than ever to make sure not to break Haste (what means sitting out one round). My DM would try to break it as much as possible. And to be honest, I would do so as well, because a self-buffing Haste-Rogue that can even buy scrolls will outdo the other classes on our table. That somehow would make CON save proficiency a must. And at last, there are other downsides like not having the reaction ready for Uncanny Dodge (half Damage). In conclusion: Spells are cool, but not mandatory. So, Rogue 13 is set for sure, because I really want those 3rd level spells, but I won't go for Haste and I can wait for the spells. I take Slow instead and make sure to avoid damage for those situations that I slow the enemy encounter down, what is quite easiert than attacking three times + losing Uncanny Dodge + not being able to move out of sight (because of the reaction attack of Haste).

Fighting Style: So, The priotity lies on fighting and therefore Fighter 5 is the best way to go, because the Rogue class doesn't offer much for that. There are no cool class features or fighting maneuvers. So, this seems like the ideal point for going Fighter 5 immediately to get Action Surge (2/13), Superior Dice (3/14), ASI (4/15), Extra Attack(5/16). Because CON is less useful I will take Resilient: WIS on Fighter 4 (level 15) what gives me the same advantage than Slippery Mind even earlier on total level 15.

After that I will continue Rogue 12 and get the Lucky feat (or something else) + Rogue 13 for spells. Then Fighter 6/7 for another ASI.

Special thanks to @PeteNutButter, @Citan and @djreynolds. It was fun doing character creation in such detail!

[Citan]

So, this seems like the ideal point for going Fighter 5 immediately to get Action Surge (2/13), Superior Dice (3/14), ASI (4/15), Extra Attack(5/16). Because CON is less useful I will take Resilient: WIS on Fighter 4 (level 15) what gives me the same advantage than Slippery Mind even earlies on total level 15.

After that I will continue Rogue 12 and get the Lucky feat (or something else) + Rogue 13 for spells. Then Fighter 6/7 for another ASI.

Special thanks to @PeteNutButter, @Citan and @djreynolds. It was fun doing character creation in such detail!
Glad you finally were able to draw a definite line.
Godspeed to your character, and I wish you the best health-wise, go back up on your feet as fast as your character runs. :)