Fastball special mechanic

[Seth1221]

Hi all,

I came up with a mechanic for the fastball special (from X-Men) for a game I play. I'm not sure if it should be a feat and if so if both participants should take it. Let me know what you think.

Fastball special

You trained very hard to become a human cannonball.

This manoeuvre needs two participants: a thrower and a throwee.

Thrower can forego one of his attacks to initiate a fastball special. If he is adjacent to throwee he may try to throw him at a target. Thrower Rolls athletics check (DC is enemy’s AC). Maximum range is equal to thrower’s strength modifier multiplied by 10. Throwee is considered an improvised weapon and as such proficiency is not added to the athletics check.

The target must make a wisdom saving throw to realise the nature of incoming projectile. If he fails he is startled by the bravado and throwee gains advantage on further manoeuvre checks. DC is dependent on both thrower and throwee and equals 8 + thrower’s str modifier + throwee’s con modifier.

As part of the manoeuvre throwee makes an attack roll. If he hits he deals normal damage and may add one of below additional effects:
• He adds proficiency bonus to damage of the attack
• He tries to knock down/shove the target (DC 8 + proficiency + str/con modifier)
• He moves in the initiative order right after the thrower
• He tries to confuse the target (disadvantage on target’s attacks during target’s next round) (WIS saving throw DC 8 + proficiency + cha modifier) (available level 4)
• He tries to stun the target (CON saving throw DC 8 + proficiency + str/con modifier) (available starting lvl 6)

After the throw throwee must make an acrobatics check to see if he is able to stand. DC is target’s AC. If he fails he ends the manoeuvre prone.

This manoeuvre may be performed up to thrower’s str modifier/throwee’s con modifier (whichever is lower) per long rest.

[Quoxis]

My personal opinion: your feature is the next form of grappling, an overly complicated mechanic that would better be handled by the DM improvising.

See, feats that offer something that's not covered by the rules seem to be great as they give you access to something new, but only until you realize you did the exact opposite:
You restrict others from doing it without the feat.
Ask your GM on the fly whether you can throw your teammate into the opponent's face. A good GM will probably allow it and come up with some makeshift ruling (and here, you can offer your ideas, so don't scrap them entirely!).

Also: if your rulings have sub-options, are entire paragraphs long and require multiple different skill checks and rolls as well as MATH, you're doing it wrong. Combat becomes significantly less fun if two players have to prepare half an hour until they can roll their attack.

[Seth1221]

Thanks for your feedback.

As I mentioned I'm not sure if this should actually be a feat. The idea is to set ground rules for the manoeuvre so we do not need to think about it everytime. If we have a set ammount of things we can do it becomes easier for the DM than to think on the spot. A DM has a lot to think about, my intention is to take something from him and not to burden him with the "good DM will think of something" syndrome.

Once we learn the mechanic there really is no additional math than usual, no? But I don't have troubles with many rolls/ counting on the fly during games so maybe it's just my biased perception.

[Quoxis]

Thanks for your feedback.
Thanks for taking it without taking it personally.



As I mentioned I'm not sure if this should actually be a feat. The idea is to set ground rules for the manoeuvre so we do not need to think about it everytime. If we have a set ammount of things we can do it becomes easier for the DM than to think on the spot. A DM has a lot to think about, my intention is to take something from him and not to burden him with the "good DM will think of something" syndrome.

Once we learn the mechanic there really is no additional math than usual, no? But I don't have troubles with many rolls/ counting on the fly during games so maybe it's just my biased perception.

Well... I'm not sure.
First the thrower needs to know his throwing distance and measure whether the target is within reach.
Actually, what they first need to know is if and how often they can do this, as it's dependent on two different ability scores.
Then the thrower makes an athletics check.
Then thrower and throwee must calculate the first (!) DC.
Then the target rolls a save against that DC.
Then the throwee decides which effect he wants.
Based on that, there's either an attack roll OR another DC to calculate as well as a save to roll OR an initiative change OR yet another DC to calculate and a save to roll OR yet another DC and save.
But wait, there's more, as the throwee has to make an acrobatics check (yet another skill that didn't come up so far) against the AC of the target.

If it wasn't clear until now: this takes time. There are plenty of rolls and DCs to calculate, and it's realistic to assume nobody will learn the entirety of this mechanic by heart.
"Wait, do i need Con or Str for this?" will result in re-reading the mechanic, then checking the character sheet, quickly calculating... And now you lost 5 minutes just for ONE of multiple DCs and rolls to make.

My advice: if you want to keep this, make it one consistent save DC (8+con+str/dex should be ok) that gets used in all saves. Make the first and second effect "You [throwee] can take a free attack action, to which the "multiattack" feature doesn't apply. Add your proficiency bonus to the damage. If you choose to take the shove action instead, you get advantage".
The confusion effect is nice until you realize the bard's "vicious mockery" or one of the frost cantrips (i keep forgetting the name) do the same, but with damage added and without a level requirement. Take it out or add damage.
Same goes for the stunning. A monk gets stunning strike at a lower level with less trouble and still deals damage.

[Azgeroth]

how about, thrower makes an improvised ranged attack using strength (no proficiency, unless its a tavern brawler)

if the attack exceeds the targets AC by more than 2 he is knocked prone, more than 5 he is stunned untill his next turn.

if the attack fails the throwee lands 10 ft from the thrower, prone.

if you meet the AC or exceed by no more than 2, the target takes damage, throwee and target must make a dex save or fall prone (DC is 8+prof+strength of throwwer)

much simpler, only 1 or 2 rolls. remember the throwee can choose to hold there action for a turn, or if DM permits can delay his turn untill that action, so no need for that as an option, you mentioned this is a manoeuvre so will it use Sup Dice?? if so, you could have that added to the attack roll in place of prof. or, have it spent to force the target to make a save against being prone instead of the
if greater than x, then x,
else x

[Seth1221]

Thanks for taking it without taking it personally.

Why should I? I asked for feedback and you provided it. I'm grateful.




Well... I'm not sure.
First the thrower needs to know his throwing distance and measure whether the target is within reach.
Actually, what they first need to know is if and how often they can do this, as it's dependent on two different ability scores.
Then the thrower makes an athletics check.
Then thrower and throwee must calculate the first (!) DC.
Then the target rolls a save against that DC.
Then the throwee decides which effect he wants.
Based on that, there's either an attack roll OR another DC to calculate as well as a save to roll OR an initiative change OR yet another DC to calculate and a save to roll OR yet another DC and save.
But wait, there's more, as the throwee has to make an acrobatics check (yet another skill that didn't come up so far) against the AC of the target.


When you put it that way it indeed look complicated. One DC calculatng mechanic my indeed be a better option.




The confusion effect is nice until you realize the bard's "vicious mockery" or one of the frost cantrips (i keep forgetting the name) do the same, but with damage added and without a level requirement. Take it out or add damage.
Same goes for the stunning. A monk gets stunning strike at a lower level with less trouble and still deals damage.

This is actually intentional. As I wanted it just to be a thing that both players can do (like grapple) I thought that it shouldn't be as powerful as a class trait. E.G. a barbarian would have all his barbarian stuff + ability to stun on top of that. It shouldn't be aspowerful as stunning strike in this example. But I have a feeling that you misread - the throwee deals damage if he hits + can try to stun or trip etc.



how about, thrower makes an improvised ranged attack using strength (no proficiency, unless its a tavern brawler)

if the attack exceeds the targets AC by more than 2 he is knocked prone, more than 5 he is stunned untill his next turn.

if the attack fails the throwee lands 10 ft from the thrower, prone.

if you meet the AC or exceed by no more than 2, the target takes damage, throwee and target must make a dex save or fall prone (DC is 8+prof+strength of throwwer)

much simpler, only 1 or 2 rolls. remember the throwee can choose to hold there action for a turn, or if DM permits can delay his turn untill that action, so no need for that as an option, you mentioned this is a manoeuvre so will it use Sup Dice?? if so, you could have that added to the attack roll in place of prof. or, have it spent to force the target to make a save against being prone instead of the
if greater than x, then x,
else x


This is neat but it takes away things to do from throwee. I intend for both participants to have some fun with it. Throwee is more than a projectile, he's a friend! ;)

[Joe the Rat]

So this is what I've done:

Throwing bodies: Nonproficient STR (athletics). Can be opposed. You have to be able to Lift the creature to have a hope of Throwing it. Base success is 5' (Hey, it's a shove!), with the score difference adding feet, limited by your strength score. Disadvantage for throwing like-sized creatures (first die determines basic maneuver success, 2nd may lower throw range).

"Greivous harm with a body" mode (mooks as weapons): No proficiency Str attack, 1d6 + Str, standard Str DC knockdown/back for target. Cannot multiattack unless your dance partner is smaller. Ranged: 1d6 damage per 10' of potential distance (a potential 20' throw does 2d6 damage regardless of how far you actually flew). Both may Dex Acro to avoid prone landing, take 1/2 damage. This comes up far more often from Warlocks than bruisers.

Fastball (Willing participants): This is an Aid with a booster. Since you are coordinating, this is a readied action/reaction event for one of the participants. I prefer to make it a reaction on the part of the throwee, but you may season to taste. Athletics check for distance, and attacker (projectile) gets Advantage on their attack. Extra damage per throwing bodies. You may substitute your attack for other actions (grapple, shove, readied spell, etc.), but the throw damage will still happen. If you opt to allow the pitcher to use their reaction, then extra attack / bonus actions are available as ususal.

If you really wish to encourage such shenanigans, A willing ersatz canadian takes 1/2 thrown damage and prone at the end, or none on a successful Dex (acro) check.

Potential wiggles:
If you like flying bodies, you can adjust throw range by carrying capacity (so Bearbarians and Goliaths and Bearbarian Goliaths... and Large+ sized creatures) can throw people to at actual ranged attack ranges.
You could remove the STR cap, so high results makes for high flyers.
Height: Throwing someone upward is half as far.
Goose and Gander: While swinging goblins like a kid sister and tossing halflings is all good fun, keep in mind that Giants would enjoy doing this as well.

[Bastian Weaver]

There's a pretty simple description of Fastball Special in Marvel Super Heroes game books. Should I quote?

[Seth1221]

There's a pretty simple description of Fastball Special in Marvel Super Heroes game books. Should I quote?

Sure if you have it on you :)

[Quoxis]

There's a pretty simple description of Fastball Special in Marvel Super Heroes game books. Should I quote?

<raises hand as inactive Comic enthusiast>

Please do.

[Bastian Weaver]

Here goes.


Fastball Special: A special form of Charging
attack developed by Messrs. Logan and
Rasputin of Westchester County. New York,
which involves the more powerful of the two
using the less powerful as a Missile weapon.
The attack supposes the throwing character
can lift and throw the thrown character. The
attack uses the thrower's Agility to hit, or the
thrown's Fighting ability. whichever the
players involved choose. Damage is done
by the thrown character as determined by
Endurance, or by a normal Slugfest attack,
with the thrown character gaining benefits as
for a Charging attack. (Plusses for Speed.)