True Polymorphing into a Pentadrone/Quadrone

[Renduaz]

Since True Polymorph allows me to transform into Constructs, I can choose a Pentadrone or Quadrone ( Pentadrones oversee the worker populace of Mechanus while Quadrones are the army field officers, although a Pentadrone is the highest rank ), and due to retaining my personality which supersedes all other creature traits when you transform, as well as not being "compelled" to do anything, I still have the "Axiomatic Mind" trait granted RAW by True Polymorph, except for me it means, no one can compel me to act against my nature and instructions which translates to my retained personality.

Hypothesis A - I effectively have Charmed/Suggestion immunity?

In the MM, under "Absolute Law and Order" and "Absolute Hierarchy", Modrons communicate with the ranks directly above or below them, and obeys commands from a superior with total obedience and no sense of self, amorphously doing so under the "direction" of their leader Primus ( In previous edition he was a God, here it doesn't say ). The means of this direction, it's communication ( Is Primus just at the top of the chain of command an instructs those directly below him, or those he direct everything at once? ) and it's reach ( Does Primus have control into the Prime Material too at all places, or just in Mechanus and possibly the Outer Planes? Since in many settings even Gods are barred from direct influences over affairs in the PM except in localized places or when prayed to/whatever )

Hypothesis B - As a superior ranking Modron could I command lesser ones below my rank, and if so, where?

In the absence of two factors, there is no question that I would. Those factors are 1. Primus, and 2. Variant rule on "Rogue Modrons".

1. How does the leadership and direction of Primus manifest in this edition? If it is a chain of command, then I would be able to infiltrate it. If it is omniscience, then I will probably not. However, the fact that an Hierarchy between Modrons is needed in the first place implies differently, or else it would simply be left to Primus alone. Or maybe he can "override" orders but doesn't keep track all the time unless something goes wrong? Up to the DM, I guess. If the latter, would this omniscience extend into the Prime Material, or be limited much like Divine Influence in the Gods respective planes, or an Elder Brain's telepathic reach? If limited, then the plan would possibly be to "kidnap" through trapping as many Modrones as possible from Mechanus and plant them on the Prime Material, where in the absence of Primus, they'd take their commands from me.

2. Am I a "Rogue Modron"? It's a variant. I did not specifically transform into one. By RAW I still have "Axiomatic Mind" so it would be contradictory, and I am not in fact a Modron unit which became defective through natural decay or exposure to chaotic forces, I was never non-defective, I was never created by Primus, and never under his direction. If Primus can detect when someone true polymorphs into a Modron on the Prime Material and also controls Modrons everywhere telepathically as a deity and bypasses all wards, then it doesn't matter, but if he can't, then the only question is whether other Modrons would identify and hunt me down as a "Rogue", even though when outside of Mechanus, I'm their only source of command, so they should not even be aware?

What do you think?

[Blacky the Blackball]

Hypothesis A - I effectively have Charmed/Suggestion immunity?

Not to the spells, no.

Suggestion can only compel you to do things that sound reasonable to you - so it can't compel you to do things against your nature anyway.

Charm simply makes you treat people as your friends. It doesn't compel you to do anything.

So neither of those is blocked by an immunity to being compelled to do things that are against your nature.

However, you would get immunity to certain specific non-spell charm/dominate effects such as those of vampires or harpies; since those effects can compel you to do things that are against your nature.


Hypothesis B - As a superior ranking Modron could I command lesser ones below my rank, and if so, where?

Given the lack of telepathic abilities and the listed language, the implication seems to be that Modrons communicate by a standard chain of command with verbal (and/or written?) instruction.

So you could command lesser Modrons one rank below you by talking to them and they would (assuming they believe you to be a genuine Modron of higher rank) obey.

If they are given reason to suspect that you're an imposter (for example because of the nature of your commands - but we're into DM interpretation and roleplaying territory there, rather than rules) then they'd probably assume you to be a Rogue Modron and try to kill you - or at the least refuse to accept you as a designated authority.

[Renduaz]

Not to the spells, no.

Suggestion can only compel you to do things that sound reasonable to you - so it can't compel you to do things against your nature anyway.

Charm simply makes you treat people as your friends. It doesn't compel you to do anything.

So neither of those is blocked by an immunity to being compelled to do things that are against your nature.

However, you would get immunity to certain specific non-spell charm/dominate effects such as those of vampires or harpies; since those effects can compel you to do things that are against your nature.



Given the lack of telepathic abilities and the listed language, the implication seems to be that Modrons communicate by a standard chain of command with verbal (and/or written?) instruction.

So you could command lesser Modrons one rank below you by talking to them and they would (assuming they believe you to be a genuine Modron of higher rank) obey.

If they are given reason to suspect that you're an imposter (for example because of the nature of your commands - but we're into DM interpretation and roleplaying territory there, rather than rules) then they'd probably assume you to be a Rogue Modron and try to kill you - or at the least refuse to accept you as a designated authority.

In the Modron MM entry it's listed that only the Pentadrone can improvise/adapt to new situations while the lesser Modrons are more like a CMD prompt command line who hardly have the capacity to "assume" anything. The only way they would conceivably recognize that is probably through information given by Primus. The "Rogue Modron" variant prefaces with saying that Rogue Modrons "Do not follow the direction of Primus", and most Rogue Modrons probably break down in Mechanus, where Primus would be able to pass down orders through the chain of command himself or communicate through some other means.

I'd also disagree on Charm ( though perhaps not Suggestion ), because charm can make you stop attacking it, and it magical compels you to regard them as a friendly acquaintance regardless of disposition and nature. If you Charm Person a Gnoll, it is blatantly a magical compulsion against it's nature to make it quit attacking and see you as a fiend, and likewise it will be against my nature when it comes to something I hate or want to attack as well.

[Blacky the Blackball]

In the Modron MM entry it's listed that only the Pentadrone can improvise/adapt to new situations while the lesser Modrons are more like a CMD prompt command line who hardly have the capacity to "assume" anything.

Precisely, so if you give commands to them that result in the Modron equivalent of *DOES NOT COMPUTE* (which is quite likely, since you've retained your own personality which won't be as ordered and logical as that of an actual Modron) then they'll react in whatever way the DM decides; which is likely to be that their instincts - or inbuilt programming if you prefer - will make them treat you as being defective/rogue.


I'd also disagree on Charm ( though perhaps not Suggestion ), because charm can make you stop attacking it, and it magical compels you to regard them as a friendly acquaintance regardless of disposition and nature.

Charm doesn't compel you to stop attacking. It just fools you into thinking the caster is your friend. Now in most cases your nature is likely to be such that you wouldn't attack your friend, so this results in you doing that - but there's nothing in the spell that compels you to do so. If your nature was such that you'd be okay with killing your friends then when charmed you might continue to attack.

There's nothing in the Charm Person spell that compels any kind of behaviour that goes against your nature, so Axiomatic Mind won't make you immune to it.

[Renduaz]

Precisely, so if you give commands to them that result in the Modron equivalent of *DOES NOT COMPUTE* (which is quite likely, since you've retained your own personality which won't be as ordered and logical as that of an actual Modron) then they'll react in whatever way the DM decides; which is likely to be that their instincts - or inbuilt programming if you prefer - will make them treat you as being defective/rogue.



Charm doesn't compel you to stop attacking. It just fools you into thinking the caster is your friend. Now in most cases your nature is likely to be such that you wouldn't attack your friend, so this results in you doing that - but there's nothing in the spell that compels you to do so. If your nature was such that you'd be okay with killing your friends then when charmed you might continue to attack.

There's nothing in the Charm Person spell that compels any kind of behaviour that goes against your nature, so Axiomatic Mind won't make you immune to it.

It would not be in my nature to regard something which just attacked me or some Arch-lich or anyone that I'm at odds with as my "friendly acquaintance" in the first place. "Charm person" magically compels this to happen. I'm not sure how it can get any clearer than this.

[Unoriginal]

If you turn into a Modron but conserve your personality and alignment (as well as your independence and sense of self), then you do not fit this description:


Absolute Law and Order.
Under the direction of their leader, Primus, modrons increase order in the multiverse in accordance with laws beyond the comprehension of·mortal minds. Their own minds are networked in a hierarchal pyramid, in which each modron receives commands from superiors and delegates orders to underlings. A mod ron carries out commands with total obedience, utmost efficiency, and an absence of morality or ego. Modrons have no sense of self beyond what is necessary to fulfill their duties. They exist as a unified collective, divided by ranks, yet they always refer to themselves collectively. To a modron, there is no "I," but only "we" or "us.

Ergo, you would be a rogue modron, since "rogue modrons don't act in accordance with Primus's wishes and directives", and by consequence "A rogue modron loses the Axiomatic Mind trait and can have any alignment other than lawful neutral."

The Axiomatic Mind is entirely dependent on the intense law and order they have as an interconnected whole, and an individualistic modron would lose it.

[Renduaz]

If you turn into a Modron but conserve your personality and alignment (as well as your independence and sense of self), then you do not fit this description:



Ergo, you would be a rogue modron, since "rogue modrons don't act in accordance with Primus's wishes and directives", and by consequence "A rogue modron loses the Axiomatic Mind trait and can have any alignment other than lawful neutral."

The Axiomatic Mind is entirely dependent on the intense law and order they have as an interconnected whole, and an individualistic modron would lose it.

I would not fit it, but that doesn't necessarily make me a "Rogue Modron" either. It's a Variant first of all, And i'm not a Modron unit that malfunctioned due to time or chaotic forces, nor by RAW would I be deprived of Axiomatic Mind due to True Polymorph, I can only be designated as such through the DM rulings on other Modron's recognition. Then the question remain, even if you were to call me a "Rogue Modron", you ought to ask yourself how the lower units even know, and can they they know outside of Mechanus and the Planes too without Primus, and so on that I've posted.

If your rulings on Modron communication/Primus lead to such a designation, be my guest, but you seem to state it like RAW. By Raw I polymorphed into a Modron, not the variant creature "Rogue Modron", much like if I true polymorph into a Djinni but not one with wishes, or a Mind Flayer and not a Mind Flayer Arcanist. Secondly I was never a "Modron unit", and I never broke direction ( I had none to begin with ) , and not as a result of time or chaotic forces. All of these would disqualify me from being a "Rogue Modron" inherently. However, based on Modron programming, Primus and a variety of ruling dependent factors, I could merely be perceived as such by real Modrons. Or if the ruling is that the lower Modrons are dependent for this information on higher, decision-making Modrons or on the guidance of Primus ( Which may be absent outside of the Upper Planes ), then it is also possible that they will not designate me as such.

[Blacky the Blackball]

It would not be in my nature to regard something which just attacked me or some Arch-lich or anyone that I'm at odds with as my "friendly acquaintance" in the first place. "Charm person" magically compels this to happen. I'm not sure how it can get any clearer than this.

I know you keep using the word "compel" in order to try to make it fit the immunity, but the immunity is more than just about that word. It's specifically about being compelled to act in a particular way. Charm makes you percieve someone differently, but your actions are not controlled by the spell at all. You still act naturally based on what you percieve. Ergo you are not being compelled to act in a way that is against your nature.