OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Basement Cat]

Roy's right. He's so right it hurts. This kind of maneuver never works where prophecies are concerned. But if the High Priest had simply told Durkon he would indeed have stayed away. Moreover Durkon would have been spared decades of loneliness and pain. :smallfurious:

It will be interesting how this revelation will effect Durkon when he learns of it. Ironically I can see Durkon rejoicing at the news once he gets it: "There was a reason? Thor be praised!" :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Roy does make a very good point here.

[Auburn Bright]

Aw, this one's kind of sweet. In a weird way.

[endiku]

No surprise.

But good to get it out in the open...

[DecimalPoint]

Yep, 1 point to Roy

[GudBelkarIsGud]

Oh wow. I don't know why, but just a few lines of dialogue from Roy seemed to better highlight Durkon's anguish for me better than the flashbacks shown to us so far. It's a pretty good testament to how well Durkon's onscreen stoicism and overall positive attitude has been portrayed. I mean, it makes sense that he'd be torn up inside, but I always got the feeling that he'd long ago made genuine peace with it. Maybe he hadn't.

This little bit of dialogue also made me realise the depths of Roy's friendship with Durkon; it's pretty clearly on a much deeper level than the other friendships in the group.

Damn. I love this writing!

[Doctor West]

No surprise.

But good to get it out in the open...

Well, no surprise to the maybe 10% of readers who bought and read On The Origin of PCs or hang around on the forums enough to pick up spoilers.

[Alaska Fan]

Roy's last observation is as poignant as anything the Giant has written so far. Well played.

[Peelee]

I really like how Roy has grown a distaste for prophecies.

[ironkid]

Roy's right. Durkon would've obliterated himself, just to make it zero chance for the prophecy ever be fulfilled. Whether that would count as a honorable death would be unconsequential to Durkon.

But *WE* know that.

You know how a liar expects everyone to be a liar, and a traitor expects everyone to be a traitor? That tells you who the former high priest of thor was. He probably would've expect for Durkon to blackmail the city, threatening it with simply returning, or something like that.

Here's to hoping he dies in disgrace, Thor strips him of his powers, and that Garm gets a former high priest of thor as chewing toy after all.

[dude123nice]

Roy's right. Durkon would've obliterated himself, just to make it zero chance for the prophecy ever be fulfilled. Whether that would count as a honorable death would be unconsequential to Durkon.

But *WE* know that.

You know how a liar expects everyone to be a liar, and a traitor expects everyone to be a traitor? That tells you who the former high priest of thor was. He probably would've expect for Durkon to blackmail the city, threatening it with simply returning, or something like that.

Here's to hoping he dies in disgrace, Thor strips him of his powers, and that Garm gets a former high priest of thor as chewing toy after all.

Pretty sure he is already dead.

[CoffeeIncluded]

The old high priest already died, several hundred comics ago. But yes, this was the worst possible way to go about things.

[Coliumbos]

Here's to hoping he dies in disgrace, Thor strips him of his powers, and that Garm gets a former high priest of thor as chewing toy after all.
I suppose this is all meant to be past tense, given that the current High Priest is different.

Still, yeah, revelations that are only revelations to people who don't know the character. Roy's right - Durkon would have done it all to himself anyway, if it would protect someone. But that's always the greatest tragedy about these things - the naturally good have to be forced away, but the naturally evil must be kept close to stop prophecies from occurring. And they're always set in motion by those who seek to stall them.

[Mr_Ratatosk]

What's funny about this comic is that it more or less reiterated what everyone has been saying on the forum for a few weeks now. Though I think Roy put it in much better terms.

"Break his own leg kicking his butt out the door." I might have to find an excuse to use that one day...

[Seto]

That's a wonderful character-driven strip.

[Gnome Alone]

Even Belkar's expression is a little miffed here.

[Knick]

I call this the "Wheel of Time problem", whereby good characters mess up by not sharing important information until it is too late.

[Antonok]

That last line made me laugh a bit too hard.

So been thinking this for a while, but the prophecy said when he returns home, why didn't they just forbid him from ever leaving in the first place? Never leave, never have to return.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I always thought Hurak's reasoning was faulty-- if you know Durkon is lawful enough to never come back if you tell him, you ought to know that that would hold true even if you told him the truth. (Especially as Good as he is, too, not just Lawful.)

Anyway, I love how this is all coming together-- that the party finally knows the real story of why Durkon was exiled. I am sure it will come up again once the Order confronts the vampire.

[hamishspence]

So been thinking this for a while, but the prophecy said when he returns home, why didn't they just forbid him from ever leaving in the first place? Never leave, never have to return.

Hurak had concluded at the time that something would have eventually forced Durkon to leave, no matter how much they tried to prevent it.

[MReav]

I disagree with Roy.

Durkon breaking his leg to kick himself out the door would impede his ability to leave faster.

[IDrankWHAT]

I'm akin to believe that this new evidence will come about during Roy VS Durkula and Roy will tell him, if my buddy Durkon is in there and can hear me, yadda yadda yadda. Durkon will hear this inside and Durkula is gonna be pretty much up that one creek without a paddle.

[IDrankWHAT]

I disagree with Roy.

Durkon breaking his leg to kick himself out the door would impede his ability to leave faster.


Then again, even if he did break it, he would probably just heal it back anyway! :smallbiggrin:

[HandofShadows]

And Roy has no idea that the real Durkon is still in there fighting as best he can. :smalleek:

[KishouTheBadger]

Personally makes me wish that Hurak is in Hel's Hell, because of what he did. I get he was trying to delay the prophecy, but it was still such a poor way to handle things, especially towards someone as devout and lawful as poor Durkon.

The bastard got lucky dying before the rest of the dwarven lands were doomed, so I expect a punchline where all the afterlife dwarves stare at him in contempt as he says something sheepish like "Uh... opps?"

[Chei]

It's really nice to see Roy speak up for the Durkon-that-was. And terribly painful for him to come to the conclusion that Durkon's life was "exactly as unfair as he always feared it was."

Last time the issue of resurrecting Durkon came up, Roy made the painful but necessary determination that they can't prioritize Durkon over the world. I kind of hope that this story nudges Roy to decide that he's going to get his friend back, one way or the other.

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, I always thought Hurak's reasoning was faulty-- if you know Durkon is lawful enough to never come back if you tell him, you ought to know that that would hold true even if you told him the truth. (Especially as Good as he is, too, not just Lawful.)

Anyway, I love how this is all coming together-- that the party finally knows the real story of why Durkon was exiled. I am sure it will come up again once the Order confronts the vampire.Now we just need Roy to tell everyone what The High Priestess of Thor told him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html) about Durkon no longer being banished.

Great strip, Giant. Thanks!

[HUMVEE Driver]

LOL Great title for this one! That's a first!

[gamingfreak10]

Durkon's a better man than I. He'd exile himself; I'd just say "k, then I won't leave".

So maybe not necessarily better as much as less lazy...

[Ron Miel]

"What gets me is that he never just told Durkon what was going on"

An apparent plot hole that many people have commented on before. Are we about to get an explanation that removes the hole?

[schmunzel]

Roy's right. Durkon would've obliterated himself, just to make it zero chance for the prophecy ever be fulfilled. Whether that would count as a honorable death would be unconsequential to Durkon.

But *WE* know that.

You know how a liar expects everyone to be a liar, and a traitor expects everyone to be a traitor? That tells you who the former high priest of thor was. He probably would've expect for Durkon to blackmail the city, threatening it with simply returning, or something like that.

Here's to hoping he dies in disgrace, Thor strips him of his powers, and that Garm gets a former high priest of thor as chewing toy after all.

Why this hate towards the former High Priest of Thor (fHPT) ???
I am reasonable sure that he didnt expect Durkon to be a lowlife and Im reasonably sure he wasnt one himself.
What he did want is to keep knowledge of the prophecy limited in order to PREVENT it from becoming a self fulfilling prophecy - and I dont blame him for that.

Apart from that he DID die already and for all we can infer likely DID NOT end up as chewing toy for canine god companions.

sch

[Ron Miel]

LOL Great title for this one! That's a first!

How so? Are you saying great titles are rare in the strip?

[unbeliever536]

It's really nice to see Roy speak up for the Durkon-that-was. And terribly painful for him to come to the conclusion that Durkon's life was "exactly as unfair as he always feared it was."

Last time the issue of resurrecting Durkon came up, Roy made the painful but necessary determination that they can't prioritize Durkon over the world. I kind of hope that this story nudges Roy to decide that he's going to get his friend back, one way or the other.

I'd guess it's a question of when, not if. Roy's decision was that they couldn't delay their trip to the last gate just to get Durkon back. Presumably, though, he'd seek a way to revive him after dealing with the final gate. Personally, I'm betting that some priests of Thor are going to be the ones to revive him at the end of this book, since Durkon was in many ways the vampire's first victim.

[SaintRidley]

Durkon's a better man than I. He'd exile himself; I'd just say "k, then I won't leave".

So maybe not necessarily better as much as less lazy...

They weren't sure how literal it was. For all they knew if he went out for groceries it could trigger the prophecy.

[LtPowers]

I had to actually break out my copy of OOPC to figure out how Blackore knew of the prophecy.

Also, if Blackore's statement of 20 years isn't just an estimate but an actual duration, it means the OotS has been adventuring together for 3 years.


Powers &8^]

[schmunzel]

That last line made me laugh a bit too hard.

So been thinking this for a while, but the prophecy said when he returns home, why didn't they just forbid him from ever leaving in the first place? Never leave, never have to return.

Probably because *home* is a little ambiguos in its meaning.
Will he return *home* to his mother from the temple, or *home* to his dwarven city after having been exiled?

sch

[aurilee]

Every once and a while there's a line that just perfectly sums up a character.

That's what Roy's final line is for Durkon.

So selfless and caring it's ridiculous and sad at the same time.

Takes a lot of skill to write lines like those, especially when it's the punchline of a comic.

I think this might be one of my favourite strips now, just because of that punchline.

[Forikroder]

"What gets me is that he never just told Durkon what was going on"

An apparent plot hole that many people have commented on before. Are we about to get an explanation that removes the hole?

high priest prob assumed durkon was or was going to be an agent of hel/demons/other evil entities to didnt want to tell him

[PH7]

"A prophecy? I already do not like where this is heading."
Roy perfectly captures the reason I stop reading most fantasy books after the first 100 or so pages.

And yeah, it's bad when even Belkar seems to realize the unfair nature of Durkon's banishment. Can't wait to hear his take on this.

[Pampukin]

Man a lot of people are mad about the former high priest of thor, even wishing him an afterlife of suffering. He did what he tought best, its not his fault his logic was flawed, int is such an easy dump stat for clerics.:smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

He did at least show some remorse at the time:

"I hope Thor forgives me someday for doing this"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html

[littlebum2002]

I like the exposition in this comic, but I feel it should have been delayed to pair up with the next one for one double-length strip.

[Anarion]

Man a lot of people are mad about the former high priest of thor, even wishing him an afterlife of suffering. He did what he tought best, its not his fault his logic was flawed, int is such an easy dump stat for clerics.:smalltongue:

It is his fault though. He acted with incredible recklessness. He didn't consult with anyone, we've seen in the flashbacks that he didn't even let Durkon say goodbye to his mother. Prophecy almost never means you have to instantly panic, and it's practically always self-fulfilling because people try and mess with it in ways exactly like this one. Hurak was just a complete idiot about the whole thing.

What I'm really curious about is why the brewmaster knows, but the current high priest of Thor does not.

[hroþila]

Maybe Blackore should have been this vehement back when it happened.

[zester]

Also, if Blackore's statement of 20 years isn't just an estimate but an actual duration, it means the OotS has been adventuring together for 3 years.

How do you calculate this?

[hamishspence]

What I'm really curious about is why the brewmaster knows, but the current high priest of Thor does not.

From Origin of PCs

Hurak has a conversation with the brewmaster on that subject (he was there when Hurak gave Durkon the "mission".)

[ManuelSacha]

Not even Varsuuvius figured out the obvious yet?
That's disappointing.
The best way to make sure someone does not return home... is NEVER LETTING HIM LEAVE in the first place. :smallmad:

[schmunzel]

He did at least show some remorse at the time:

"I hope Thor forgives me someday for doing this"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html

"dam ye, man! at least let me get home ta say goodby ta-" ...

sch

[Peelee]

"What gets me is that he never just told Durkon what was going on"

An apparent plot hole that many people have commented on before. Are we about to get an explanation that removes the hole?

I'm sorry, how is this a plot hole?

[ackmondual]

Will the gods get more involved? I for one and itching to see some hard Thor action! :smalltongue:

[Windscion]

Y'all dummies are ignoring the real revelation here. Durkon's mother IS STILL ALIVE.

Durkon's.
Mother.
Is.
Alive.

Can no one think of a way in which this fact will affect the plot?

[Ironsmith]

Even Belkar's expression is a little miffed here.

Yeah, but knowing Belkar, it could just as easily be "Why does he get to be the subject of a doom prophecy?" as it could "What the hell, guys? Why would you do that to Durkon?" Assuming, of course, it's not both.

[Goblin_Priest]

"What gets me is that he never just told Durkon what was going on"

An apparent plot hole that many people have commented on before. Are we about to get an explanation that removes the hole?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging

Bonus: the description even references this comic!

[theNater]

Oh wow. I don't know why, but just a few lines of dialogue from Roy seemed to better highlight Durkon's anguish for me better than the flashbacks shown to us so far. It's a pretty good testament to how well Durkon's onscreen stoicism and overall positive attitude has been portrayed. I mean, it makes sense that he'd be torn up inside, but I always got the feeling that he'd long ago made genuine peace with it. Maybe he hadn't.
He definitely had not. See: the dwarven way for handing inconvenient feelings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html).

And now Durkula is the undead embodiment of that anguish, after it has had years and years to fester.

[JumboWheat01]

I would almost pay money to watch someone take their own leg and kick their own backside.

[Quibblicious]

I would almost pay money to watch someone take their own leg and kick their own backside.

You can heel kick your own backside.

If you do it right it can really hurt, too.

Q

[Ironsmith]

You can heel kick your own backside.

If you do it right it can really hurt, too.

Voice of experience: it can really hurt if you do it wrong, too.

[Pampukin]

It is his fault though. He acted with incredible recklessness. He didn't consult with anyone, we've seen in the flashbacks that he didn't even let Durkon say goodbye to his mother. Prophecy almost never means you have to instantly panic, and it's practically always self-fulfilling because people try and mess with it in ways exactly like this one. Hurak was just a complete idiot about the whole thing.

Thas easy for us, we know the tropes, we have seen countless profecys on books, tv, movies, etc.
Plus we are seeing it from the outside, without the context Hurak had. Its one thing to see it after the fact and point, thats dumb, another to be there and assume the responsability for it.
(Sorry if i misspell something, my phone is on spanish and marks everything as wrong.)

[dtilque]

Also, if Blackore's statement of 20 years isn't just an estimate but an actual duration, it means the OotS has been adventuring together for 3 years.]

Blackore does say "almost". The OoPCs section was 17 years ago (counting from the beginning of the strip) plus about two years adventuring together equals 19 years. That' "almost twenty" in anyone's book.


Probably because *home* is a little ambiguos in its meaning.
Will he return *home* to his mother from the temple, or *home* to his dwarven city after having been exiled?

That's not the only ambiguity in the prophesy. What about the word "us"? This is one dwarf cleric talking to another, so it could be that only the dwarven clerics will all get death and destruction. And so far, we only know of a few clerics that have gotten death from Durkula & Co.

[Aquillion]

Even Belkar's expression is a little miffed here.Belkar has indicated that he feels guilty that Durkon sacrificed his life to save him (that was why he was so suspicious of the vampire.) So it's no surprise that he'd side with Durkon here.

[Syncrogti]

So my question is: once Durkon learns of this, will it change the story somehow? Will he have enough power to overpower the spirit controlling his body? Will it change the outcome in some way, and how?

[Ron Miel]

I'm sorry, how is this a plot hole?

"Why didn't anyone simply tell Durkon why he's being exiled? " People have been saying that for years, and calling it a plot hole.


Now, it looks like a good answer will be given shortly, so it wasn't a plot hole after all.

[schmunzel]

He definitely had not. See: the dwarven way for handing inconvenient feelings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html).

And now Durkula is the undead embodiment of that anguish, after it has had years and years to fester.

Funny what someone can find when reading all these old comics

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html
"Umm, maybe he'll come back as a Vampire or something"

...

sch

[Chei]

I'd guess it's a question of when, not if. Roy's decision was that they couldn't delay their trip to the last gate just to get Durkon back. Presumably, though, he'd seek a way to revive him after dealing with the final gate. Personally, I'm betting that some priests of Thor are going to be the ones to revive him at the end of this book, since Durkon was in many ways the vampire's first victim.

If it were a question of when, not if, then I don't think Roy and Haley would have discussed it as a question of if. Haley and Roy both approached the question as if it would seriously hurt their chances of raising Durkon if they spent the money on their passage north. Their argument was too charged for the answer to be as simple as "we'll roll back around and raise Durkon after we save the world."

Durkon getting raised by the church of Thor would be poetic, indeed, but I doubt they have a spare priest capable of casting Resurrection. I suppose they could have a scroll.


Yeah, but knowing Belkar, it could just as easily be "Why does he get to be the subject of a doom prophecy?" as it could "What the hell, guys? Why would you do that to Durkon?" Assuming, of course, it's not both.

He could also still be chewing on that beer he's got. Dwarven beer must be so thick you could eat it with a fork and knife.

[The MunchKING]

Y'all dummies are ignoring the real revelation here. Durkon's mother IS STILL ALIVE.

Durkon's.
Mother.
Is.
Alive.

Can no one think of a way in which this fact will affect the plot?

Not necessarily. They just talk like they know of her. She could be dead, and they knew her kid was important for some reason.

[dude123nice]

"Why didn't anyone tell Durkon why he's being exiled? People have been saying that for years, and calling it a plot hole.


Now, it looks like a good answer will be given shortly, so it wasn't a plot hole after all.

Probably be cause they were afraid he wouldn't be willing to go along with it? because the high priest was definitely not a paragon of morallity, and Durkon is a pretty nice guy, even from lawful good standards, and so the high priest couldn't imagine Durkon willingly going along with it?

[elros]

What strikes me about Durkon is that, even at his worst, all he does is curse the sky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html), and does not actually do something harmful to others. Other than Elan, which member of OOtS can say that? Even Roy did worse when he abandoned Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html).

[Peelee]

"Why didn't anyone simply tell Durkon why he's being exiled? " People have been saying that for years, and calling it a plot hole.


Now, it looks like a good answer will be given shortly, so it wasn't a plot hole after all.

Let me rephrase: How is that a plot hole? In what way is that a hole in the plot? What, specifically, makes something with a plethora of possible answers, a plot hole?

If others have been calling it that for years, good for them. The question is also directed at them, and they are free to answer. But "people say it is" is a poor response to "how is this a plot hole?"

[King of Nowhere]

I made the same comment as roy myself. durkon is not only lawful, he is also good, and if told him coming back home would help people, he would have stayed out.

of course, he would have been vampirized and come back home as a vampire anyway; but at least he'd have known why he was ssupposed to stay away.

[Morquard]

"What gets me is that he never just told Durkon what was going on"

An apparent plot hole that many people have commented on before. Are we about to get an explanation that removes the hole?

There might actually be a reason for it, even if its a little far fetched.

Durkon always considered the Dwarven Lands and Firmament his "home", even while exiled. He always held up hope that he would eventually be recalled and be allowed to return "home".
Now if he had known, sure he would never have willingly returned to the Dwarven Lands or Firmament. I agree with that. But... he would have known that he can never return. Ever. Eventually he might have met a nice dwarf woman and settled down somewhere, had a bunch of little kids and he would suddenly consider that his "home". And eventually he'd leave it to go to the marketplace and return there...

[alwaysbebatman]

@Ron Miel: Just cause people call it a plot hole does not make it so. And the brewmaster has now explicitly weighed in in favor of the least explanation: Hurak was a fool.

[Sapphire Guard]

Possibly he didn't want Durkon to blame himself or live in fear of destroying his homeland? "Hate me, not yourself."

Durkon is a cleric of Thor, cursing in Thor's name. It may be that his curse has actual weight.

Telling him wouldn't have averted the fate, but it might have made D suffer more.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not necessarily. They just talk like they know of her. She could be dead, and they knew her kid was important for some reason.

Well, we know she was alive just before the Siege of Azure City.

[Fyraltari]

Y'all dummies are ignoring the real revelation here. Durkon's mother IS STILL ALIVE.

Durkon's.
Mother.
Is.
Alive.

Can no one think of a way in which this fact will affect the plot?

More than alive : She is the kind of person that kids born years after she quit the military still call "sergeant" and not "Ms Thundershield". It has been around 50 years since she was a soldier but her time there is still remembered even by the young generation ; she must have been quite the hero.
I ma more and more thinking that there is more to the death ofDurkon's father that we have been told.


So my question is: once Durkon learns of this, will it change the story somehow? Will he have enough power to overpower the spirit controlling his body? Will it change the outcome in some way, and how?

Well Durkon will learn that his banishment was not due to any fault of his neither was it a random act of cruelty. It certainly will help healing his emotionnal wound. I strongly believe that Durkon will be raised at the end of this book and that the revelations about the nature of his exile (especially that it is over), the reunion with his mother (pretty please) and his experience in absolute powerlessness and being forced to act on his own initiative combined with being confronted with all the parts of him he refused to acknowledge will make him a better man... err dawrf. So yeah I think it will change the outcome if you consider character arc resolutions to be part of the outcome.


There might actually be a reason for it, even if its a little far fetched.

Durkon always considered the Dwarven Lands and Firmament his "home", even while exiled. He always held up hope that he would eventually be recalled and be allowed to return "home".
Now if he had known, sure he would never have willingly returned to the Dwarven Lands or Firmament. I agree with that. But... he would have known that he can never return. Ever. Eventually he might have met a nice dwarf woman and settled down somewhere, had a bunch of little kids and he would suddenly consider that his "home". And eventually he'd leave it to go to the marketplace and return there...

Wooooo, I never thought of that. Maybe Hurak, does not deserve all these accusations of stupidity after all. Frankly, faced with a prophecy like that there are no good responses. It is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of deal. Even if had had Durkon's throat slit in his sleep, you can bet someone would have tried to resurect him (therefore returning him home to the material plane) and accidentally unleash a zombie plague or something.

[Zeekar]

Dumb question: Durkon still doesn't know why he was banished, right?

As a side note, it has now been 4.5 years of real time (exactly, as of yesterday) since Durkon was Vampirized.

[The_Weirdo]

The only thing missing from the strip was Haley (Chaotics ARE good for that part) going "You deserve it. You deserve a bunch of vampires knocking on your door, you, as a society, deserve it." and proceeding to lambast the dwarves on Durkon's rights as an individual. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Weirdo]

He did at least show some remorse at the time:

"I hope Thor forgives me someday for doing this"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html

Not really enough. Not nearly enough.

[Sapphire Guard]

You, as a society deserve collective punishment for one dead man's individual choice?

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm not sure which I like more - the fact that Vaarsuvius is as horrified as their more emotionally open human companions, or the fact that even Belkar appears to be a little miffed.

[The_Weirdo]

I'm not sure which reaction I like more - the fact that Vaarsuvius is as horrified as their more emotionally open human companions, or the fact that even Belkar appears to be a little miffed.

Belkar is Chaotic. Chaotics hate to see an individual's rights being eschewed "for the sake of the group".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Again, the poor Dwarves. :smallfrown:

Also, I feel like we're being set up for a good double reveal of dramatic irony when Roy figures out how Durkon's vampirism works and Durkon figure out why his exile occurred.

[Doug Lampert]

You, as a society deserve collective punishment for one dead man's individual choice?
Haven't read whatever you're responding to. But, societies are always punished or rewarded collectively for the choices of their leaders. That's just a natural part of how the world works. Consequently, members of a group have at least a limited responsibility to police their leaders.

Hurak ordered Durkon exiled. The priest of Odin knew this, the brewer knew it, the two dwarfs who threw him out knew it. Presumably eventually his mother knew it. The reason was a secret (and I don't object to that), but the fact of the exile was not.

Did anyone make a big fuss in dwarven society about this? We have no evidence of it if they did.

Thus dwarven society was at least somewhat complicit in the action and gets some of the blame. And dwarven society is where the crows come home to roost.

This isn't fair, especially not to those who were children or not even born at the time, the acolytes in the temple (for example) have done nothing wrong. But then life isn't fair, and if you insist on punishing someone, dwarven society is as good a target as you're going to find (the actual perpetrator being dead and all).

[FireJustice]

I got the worst feeling that the High Priest of Odin was really dumb.

Yeah, the prophecyis WHEN HE IS BACK HOME YADDA YADDA DESTRUCTION DEATH.

so you go and sent him away? Already half of the prophecy thanks to you, for thor's sake.

Its the opposite: He was never to be allowed LEAVE home. So he can't return back.

Maybe if they thought he would be always homeless: "you have no home to return"- except in his heart that would never be true (and to everyone, his home is with the dwarves... so no....dumb)

Would be clever to make a loophole "Your home is inside you, your body, anything else is the world" or something metaphisic.

Or, you know, be like the civil-war-to-die-honorably people, just kill him while he sleeps, ultra good.

Well
this one is for 99% half assed ways to stop a prophecy will actually serve to fulfill it

[factotum]

I got the worst feeling that the High Priest of Odin was really dumb.

As already pointed out, Intelligence isn't a required stat for clerics, so them not possessing a lot of it isn't too surprising. :smallsmile:

[KishouTheBadger]

I guess Hurak can't take all of the blame as he's a symptom of a very screwed up race culture. Hell, a dwarven king demi-god could have avoided the whole Godsmoot and derailed all of Dark Durkon's plans (as well as Hel's) if he had just voted yes (as it's been stated very clearly that if he voted no, HEL WOULD HAVE ALL OF HIS PEOPLE), but wanted council from his dwarven people for no other reason than tradition.

[Morquard]

I got the worst feeling that the High Priest of Odin was really dumb.

Yeah, the prophecyis WHEN HE IS BACK HOME YADDA YADDA DESTRUCTION DEATH.

so you go and sent him away? Already half of the prophecy thanks to you, for thor's sake.

Its the opposite: He was never to be allowed LEAVE home. So he can't return back.

Maybe if they thought he would be always homeless: "you have no home to return"- except in his heart that would never be true (and to everyone, his home is with the dwarves... so no....dumb)

Would be clever to make a loophole "Your home is inside you, your body, anything else is the world" or something metaphisic.

Or, you know, be like the civil-war-to-die-honorably people, just kill him while he sleeps, ultra good.

Well
this one is for 99% half assed ways to stop a prophecy will actually serve to fulfill it

The whole "Why doesn't he just stay at home" has been adressed in OtOoPCs right when the prophecy was made:
Blackore: And you sent him on a trip??? Ye've doomed us all!
Hurak: Nay, ye fool, I've saved us. He would have left home eventually, to get food or visit his uncle. Even if he was imprisoned, he'd eventually escape and then disaster would surely follow.

As for killing him. A) that's pretty evil and b) who says he then wouldn't finally get to go "home to his god"?

[The MunchKING]

I guess Hurak can't take all of the blame as he's a symptom of a very screwed up race culture. Hell, a dwarven king demi-god could have avoided the whole Godsmoot and derailed all of Dark Durkon's plans (as well as Hel's) if he had just voted yes (as it's been stated very clearly that if he voted no, HEL WOULD HAVE ALL OF HIS PEOPLE), but wanted council from his dwarven people for no other reason than tradition.

Not Tradition OATHS!

[Concept]

I call this the "Wheel of Time problem", whereby good characters mess up by not sharing important information until it is too late.

Hah, I call it the "all fictional works of drama ever written" problem.
There's probably an exception or two out there.

[Seto]

Yeah, I'm on the "Hurak isn't such a fool" side. He sent Durkon away in a way that he thought would prevent his return, and sure, it ended up ruining the day - but prophecies are tricky, it probably would have found a way to happen anyway, and the guy did his honest best to oppose it. It's not like he should really shoulder all the blame.

Now to be sure, the way he went about it was cruel and unwise, and he totally could have told Durkon what was up.

[Peelee]

Hah, I call it the "all fictional works of drama ever written" problem.
There's probably an exception or two out there.

I'd say that in Back to the Future, all important information was given in a timely manner. Marty knew how to work the time machine, knew where to find Doc, knew how to get his parents together. Doc knew the time machine's power requirements, knew where and when lightning would strike, knew that he was going to get shot by the Lybians....

Quality movie, that.

[Unoriginal]

"What gets me is that he never just told Durkon what was going on"

An apparent plot hole that many people have commented on before. Are we about to get an explanation that removes the hole?

It's not a plot hole, Hurak just made a wrong assumption about Durkon. He probably thought Durkon would go "**** prophecies, I wanna go home" after a while or something similar



Wooooo, I never thought of that. Maybe Hurak, does not deserve all these accusations of stupidity after all. Frankly, faced with a prophecy like that there are no good responses. It is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of deal. Even if had had Durkon's throat slit in his sleep, you can bet someone would have tried to resurect him (therefore returning him home to the material plane) and accidentally unleash a zombie plague or something.

Actually, Hurak could just have had Drukon killed and his body destroyed, and it'd have made it basically impossible for him to come back (given how rare people with access to True Resurrection are, and how none of them would have any reason to care for a random dwarf traveler they never heard of).

As much as Hurak acted like a jerk, when faced between exiling Durkon and hoping it was enough (knowing it could fail) and killing one dwarf to guarantee the survival of all nearly at 100%, he still took the option that did not involve killing.

[Casimir-Ivanova]

Hah, I call it the "all fictional works of drama ever written" problem.
There's probably an exception or two out there.

And quite often there's another character who will bring the attention to the problem.
As in "That, right there, was when you should have said x."

Also, because it hasn't been said here yet.
"The road to Hel is often paved with good intentions." :P

[Psychronia]

Really glad to see Roy pointing out just how stupid and messed up this whole thing was. His lines were funny, but also quite heart-wrenching for poor Durkon.

His response to "there's a prophecy" is entirely on point as well. Prophecies never work out well for the mortals, and the gods have not given the Order any reason to trust them any more in the past few weeks.

...Wait. I'm not informed of how it all works, but if there was a prophecy that Durkon would bring death and destruction, then does that mean that Odin knew Hel's plan was happening ahead of time? Theologically, that would make sense because of his all-seeing eye thing, but then why did he let it happen anyway?

[eilandesq]

Sadly, if Durkon had voluntarily left home, it might just have been the case that he died in exactly the same time, place, and manner, and Durkula would have taunted Durkon's spirit with different specifics (say, the fact that Durkon undoubtedly would have harbored *some* inner bitterness even if he never uttered a syllable of protest.). It still would have been tragic, but it would have been a "Durkon sacrificed everything to protect his people, only to have it twisted into their doom in spite of his best efforts" tragedy.

[The_Weirdo]

Sadly, if Durkon had voluntarily left home, it might just have been the case that he died in exactly the same time, place, and manner, and Durkula would have taunted Durkon's spirit with different specifics (say, the fact that Durkon undoubtedly would have harbored *some* inner bitterness even if he never uttered a syllable of protest.). It still would have been tragic, but it would have been a "Durkon sacrificed everything to protect his people, only to have it twisted into their doom in spite of his best efforts" tragedy.

Still less dysfunctional than what they did to him.

[Unoriginal]

...Wait. I'm not informed of how it all works, but if there was a prophecy that Durkon would bring death and destruction, then does that mean that Odin knew Hel's plan was happening ahead of time? Theologically, that would make sense because of his all-seeing eye thing, but then why did he let it happen anyway?

In the myth, Odin wasn't all-seeing, he was just a powerful seer and had plenty of knowledge. But several myths involve him being surprised by events or asking other knowledgeable beings about what was happening or was going to happen.

In OotS, the prophets and seers seems to either not be aware of how their prophecies will happen more than what they say (ex: Odin saw Durkon would bring death and destruction, but now how), or they are aware of what will happen but won't try to disrupt it too much.

Both would explain, for exemple, why neither Tiamat nor the Oracle tried to have V removed from the equation after the prophecy about the chain of events directly leading to a good share of the evil Dragons' population to be killed was made

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, like...couldn't the dwarves have given Durkon two options, then?
1. Leave and never return
2. Never leave the village ever again

I mean, if he never leaves, he can't return "next time"...

[Lord Torath]

More than alive : She is the kind of person that kids born years after she quit the military still call "sergeant" and not "Ms Thundershield". It has been around 50 years since she was a soldier but her time there is still remembered even by the young generation ; she must have been quite the hero.
I ma more and more thinking that there is more to the death of Durkon's father that we have been told.We have been told of Durkon's father's death: A Sergeant and a Sapper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html). What other death were you thinking of?

[The MunchKING]

We have been told of Durkon's father's death: A Sergeant and a Sapper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html). What other death were you thinking of?

He said there was MORE to the story than we've been told, not that we haven't been told the story at all.

[Doug Lampert]

So, like...couldn't the dwarves have given Durkon two options, then?
1. Leave and never return
2. Never leave the village ever again

I mean, if he never leaves, he can't return "next time"...

He chooses (2) and he comes back from a shopping trip to his home with his mother and brings death and destruction to them all.

Home is ambiguous. You are assuming it means "homeland" exclusively, that's not how prophesies work.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

V's statement that there is a certain unfortunate logic to Hurak's actions is striking in it's simplicity and somber resignation.

[Shadowknight12]

...Wait. I'm not informed of how it all works, but if there was a prophecy that Durkon would bring death and destruction, then does that mean that Odin knew Hel's plan was happening ahead of time? Theologically, that would make sense because of his all-seeing eye thing, but then why did he let it happen anyway?

"I see worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)."

Odin knows a lot more about what's going on than he lets on.

[Gift Jeraff]

So Firak's hair got greyer between strips. Either that's a lot of stress or he was redesigned when Rich went back and saw the dialogue where he calls himself an old dwarf.

[Unoriginal]

Note that there could be no "correct" interpretation to any prophecy and that the events just happen in one of the multiple ways that fit the prophecies depending on everyone's choice.

Like, Malack hadn't decided to turn Durkon into an undead, it could have been that one of the people carrying his coffin to the tomb of Durkon's ancestors would have slipped and made the coffin fall the mechanism of a device protecting the whole town, causing enemies to exploit the opening. And if Hurak had ordered Durkon to stay in the temple forever, it could have been that the next day Durkon would have contracted a disease while healing someone by using his last spell slot of, then would have went to bed to his new "home", and after incubating the disease would have been transmitted to enough people to cause a plague.

[The MunchKING]

Note that there could be no "correct" interpretation to any prophecy and that the events just happen in one of the multiple ways that fit the prophecies depending on everyone's choice.

and the "let's go evil and secretly murder him" causes Thor to get mad enough that they sent one of his clerics to Hel, that HE brings Death and Destruction to them. :p

For Maximum prophecy fulfillment, right as they are taking him into his tomb to be buried with his forefathers.

Because yeah, secret murder is not only Evil, but causes the Dwarf you killed to miss out on an honorable Death and go straight to Hel.

[Unoriginal]

Because yeah, secret murder is not only Evil, but causes the Dwarf you killed to miss out on an honorable Death and go straight to Hel.

Well I'd say Thor can try to argue if the Dwarf at least had the time to attempt to defend themselves, even if it's just preparing to fight for a second before dying, it was still honorable.

Wonder if the Dwarves' poison resistance is linked to that, 'cause "death by hidden poisoning isn't honorable" vs "death by poison means the dwarf's body valiantly fought 'til the end against an unseen menace" would definitively I can see Hel and Thor argue about.

[IntelectPaladin]

And thus, his origin is told at last.
I don't envy the order, in all honesty.

[8BitNinja]

And now for a flashback arc...

Oh wait, they already kind of did that.

[KorvinStarmast]

I kind of hope that this story nudges Roy to decide that he's going to get his friend back, one way or the other. Yeah. Durkon is his best friend.
You can heel kick your own backside. If you do it right it can really hurt, too. Q True.


Dwarven beer must be so thick you could eat it with a fork and knife. Is there a problem here?
I like Roy's last line. Nice. :smallcool:

[Mandor]

well, decades of loneliness and exile can twist a person, make them bitter and resentful.
Perhaps Hurok feared if were specifically told returning would bring destruction he would eventually choose to return for that reason specifically, to deliberately bring it about.

Maybe not the Durkon he knew at time of exile.
But a Durkon plus decades of anger? There's grounds to wonder at it. Even if we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Hurok didn't.

Really, it needs exile plus suicide mission (to gain him an honorable death, at least.)

[Smoke_Rulz]

1096 comics and the party has now finally learned a big truth about Durkon. I wondered when it would happen. Now I wonder how the man himself will take it whenever he finds out. Though Roy seems to have the right idea.

And I wonder when they'll find out V's gender

[137beth]

Oedipus returns home at last.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Roy does make a very good point here.
He usually does. High Intelligence, high Wisdom, and a good understanding of the people involved are good for that. The old HPoT only had one of those things.



Roy's last observation is as poignant as anything the Giant has written so far. Well played.
It's one hell of a punchline.
Who says punchlines have to be comedic? That line punched me pretty hard in the feels.



Even Belkar's expression is a little miffed here.
He only likes misery when it's funny. This isn't funny, it's tragic. Decades of misery and ignorance, all for naught—if not less than that.
Also, he's tired of this sidequest.



Probably because *home* is a little ambiguos in its meaning.
Will he return *home* to his mother from the temple, or *home* to his dwarven city after having been exiled?
Just let him stay at the temple. Hopefully, this won't lead to some part of it being considered Durkon's home.[/url] He could be like Hagrid, except shorter and with a bushier beard.



I'm sorry, how is this a plot hole?
[color=blue]People not acting in their best interests, as determined by someone with large amounts of information not available to those people, is always a plot hole! Silly Peelee.



There might actually be a reason for it, even if its a little far fetched...
I like this explanation. It's a little paranoid, but entirely in-character for Hurak. Or, you know, any leader who hears that one person could bring death and destruction to their entire nation.



As a side note, it has now been 4.5 years of real time (exactly, as of yesterday) since Durkon was Vampirized.
Really? Geez. I wasn't even in college when that happened.
On a related note, it's been a bit over 500 strips since I first found OotS. (511, I believe.)



You, as a society deserve collective punishment for one dead man's individual choice?
Quoted for truth. I don't care if Hurak was a leader, his indiscretion does not mean dwarves who never knew him deserve punishment any more than [self-scrubbed Trump comment].

[Peelee]

People not acting in their best interests, as determined by someone with large amounts of information not available to those people, is always a plot hole! Silly Peelee.


Ha! Ya know, I was half expecting someone to say something close to that, but without the bluetext.

[SilverCacaobean]

There might actually be a reason for it, even if its a little far fetched.

Durkon always considered the Dwarven Lands and Firmament his "home", even while exiled. He always held up hope that he would eventually be recalled and be allowed to return "home".
Now if he had known, sure he would never have willingly returned to the Dwarven Lands or Firmament. I agree with that. But... he would have known that he can never return. Ever. Eventually he might have met a nice dwarf woman and settled down somewhere, had a bunch of little kids and he would suddenly consider that his "home". And eventually he'd leave it to go to the marketplace and return there...

Far-fetched? That's brilliant and totally possible. Hurak was paranoid about that prophesy at the expense of Durkon, after all. The only thing that makes me question if that's the reason he didn't inform Durkon, is I'm not sure if he was smart enough to think of this possibility, seeing how he didn't see a (practical) problem with how he handled the prophesy, didn't even consider that Durkon could return as an undead, or to be buried, or with permission from the new high-priest whom he failed to inform about this. (Ok, or the Giant hasn't thought of this, or there's a different reason. Still, that's a pretty good thought.)

ETA: I really liked everything about this strip.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

@SilverCacobean: Shhhhhhhhhh, the Giant reads these threads, and changes the plot to make the best speculation wrong.

This is, in fact, the reason why speculation is so rampant. If we have every idea ever, he can't make them all be wrong.

[SilverCacaobean]

@NihhusHuotAliro
Why, that's great. If he specifically avoids writing everything that is on these forums, the only thing that will be left for him to write, is a great coherent story! Wait, did I just figure out his writing technique?

EDIT: Two more things I noticed about the strip.

1) couldnar. Looks like someone's hand slipped :smalltongue:

2) After hearing the prophesy, the only two members who don't immediately comment, are Roy and Belkar which shows they have a different relationship with him compared to the others.

Roy is literally speechless which shows how close he is to Durkon, while Belkar, I think, isn't speechless, he just chooses not to speak. Unlike Roy, he could say something if he wanted to, but he probably doesn't see anything humorous about this situation. I'm not sure I understand what he's thinking about all that has happened between Durkon and himself and I'm not sure I can read his face, but he looks kind of... disappointed? sad? I think he didn't like what he heard.

[Bob_McSurly]

I guess Hurak can't take all of the blame as he's a symptom of a very screwed up race culture. Hell, a dwarven king demi-god could have avoided the whole Godsmoot and derailed all of Dark Durkon's plans (as well as Hel's) if he had just voted yes (as it's been stated very clearly that if he voted no, HEL WOULD HAVE ALL OF HIS PEOPLE), but wanted council from his dwarven people for no other reason than tradition.

I assume you're saying you think Dvalin's actions were wrong? Because I personally think that his actions were completely justifiable. Your free to your opinion, obviously, but just know that some people disagree with it.

[Svata]

Not even Varsuuvius figured out the obvious yet?
That's disappointing.
The best way to make sure someone does not return home... is NEVER LETTING HIM LEAVE in the first place. :smallmad:

Again, "home" is vague. Could have meant the next time he goes back to his house.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Again, "home" is vague. Could have meant the next time he goes back to his house.

Indeed, that would be the logical assumption upon hearing the prophecy. Home, on its own, is not the town in which you live (that'd be hometown), it's the house in which you live. The fact that the prophecy meant hometown is only obvious in retrospect now that we have seen the prophecy fulfilled. Not allowing Durkon to even go home to say good bye to his grandfather makes the hardest kind of cruel sense.

Hurak is a bastard who deserves to end in Hel for plenty of reasons, but the logic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_game) thread of getting Durkon out of the dwarven lands forever ASAP is solid.

GW

[Bob_McSurly]

Also, we're approaching 500 strips since strip #600, so we deserve another meta joke. (Read strip 600 if you don't understand)

[Ironsmith]

So, question, both in general and in terms of this comic... if presented with a prophecy, vaguely-worded, prone to double meanings and without any instructions on how to see it to completion or avert it, why do anything with it at all? More often than not, attempting to avert a prophecy results in its coming to fruition (such as the case with poor Durkon here), so wouldn't the best course of action be to basically just say "eh" and batten down the hatches should the worst happen?

[DougTheHead]

I enjoy how V's frame of mind is always slightly more pragmatic and less empathetic than the human members of the Order. It's not that s/he doesn't think what happened to Durkon is awful, it's that s/he just naturally thinks of the logical consistency of the scheme first.

[dtilque]

Oedipus returns home at last.

So it's going to get complex?


Again, "home" is vague. Could have meant the next time he goes back to his house.

"Home" has many definitions. Personally, I think the definition applicable here is "a 5-sided rubber slab placed at one corner of a diamond-shaped playing field." YMMV

[DougTheHead]

So, question, both in general and in terms of this comic... if presented with a prophecy, vaguely-worded, prone to double meanings and without any instructions on how to see it to completion or avert it, why do anything with it at all? More often than not, attempting to avert a prophecy results in its coming to fruition (such as the case with poor Durkon here), so wouldn't the best course of action be to basically just say "eh" and batten down the hatches should the worst happen?

It would be, but if the High Priest were the type of person to do that, the prophecy would never have been made, because it wouldn't have come true. The prophecy only comes true because the High Priest is the type of person who'd just kick Durkon out without an explanation.

The real question, I think, is why Odin chose to reveal this to his prophet in the first place, as its effect could only ever be to create a weapon aimed at the entire dwarven race. I wonder if Hel didn't somehow convince Loki to disguise himself as Odin and reveal it for a laugh.

[Occasional Sage]

Why do dwarves look toward the *SKY* for heaven?!

[dtilque]

Why do dwarves look toward the *SKY* for heaven?!

Because Thor is a lightning/thunder god?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, question, both in general and in terms of this comic... if presented with a prophecy, vaguely-worded, prone to double meanings and without any instructions on how to see it to completion or avert it, why do anything with it at all? More often than not, attempting to avert a prophecy results in its coming to fruition (such as the case with poor Durkon here), so wouldn't the best course of action be to basically just say "eh" and batten down the hatches should the worst happen?

Because then the prophecy would turn out to be the consequence of your inaction. Doing something can be worse than not doing anything, but when things go pear-shaped, it is easier on the mind to be able to tell yourself "at least I tried".

"We might as well run in the direction that makes us feel good about ourselves (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-07-24)"


Why do dwarves look toward the *SKY* for heaven?!
Because that's where Thor is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)

Grey Wolf

[Ironsmith]

It would be, but if the High Priest were the type of person to do that, the prophecy would never have been made, because it wouldn't have come true. The prophecy only comes true because the High Priest is the type of person who'd just kick Durkon out without an explanation.

Well, yeah, but you'd think Hurak would be more familiar with how these kinds of things tend to go, being a religious leader, serving the son of a god known for his visions and all of that.


The real question, I think, is why Odin chose to reveal this to his prophet in the first place, as its effect could only ever be to create a weapon aimed at the entire dwarven race. I wonder if Hel didn't somehow convince Loki to disguise himself as Odin and reveal it for a laugh.

Probably not, since that would demand quite a bit of forethought on Hel's part, but I could see Loki doing it just for the lols and Hel later taking advantage of the results.


Because then the prophecy would turn out to be the consequence of your inaction. Doing something can be worse than not doing anything, but when things go pear-shaped, it is easier on the mind to be able to tell yourself "at least I tried".

Just to be clear: I'm not saying "do nothing". I'm saying "take the prophecy coming true as fact and attempt to minimise the damages caused by it". Rather than attempt to avert it altogether, which never works, try to make it so that it coming true isn't as disastrous as it normally would be... kind of like the function of more mundane early warning systems.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just to be clear: I'm not saying "do nothing". I'm saying "take the prophecy coming true as fact and attempt to minimise the damages caused by it". Rather than attempt to avert it altogether, which never works, try to make it so that it coming true isn't as disastrous as it normally would be... kind of like the function of more mundane early warning systems.

Which is what Hurak tried to do. And it worked for him, too, the bastard. He managed to delay the prophecy long enough he was dead and presumably buried for years before it came true.

GW

[Psychronia]

So, question, both in general and in terms of this comic... if presented with a prophecy, vaguely-worded, prone to double meanings and without any instructions on how to see it to completion or avert it, why do anything with it at all? More often than not, attempting to avert a prophecy results in its coming to fruition (such as the case with poor Durkon here), so wouldn't the best course of action be to basically just say "eh" and batten down the hatches should the worst happen?

Personally, I feel like the best response to receiving a grim-as-sobriety prophecy is to try to "set it off" safely, as if it were a loaded gun that had to go off. In short, you try to fulfill the prophecy in an interpretation of it that's much more convenient for you. Taking the one we have with Durkon, for example:

[When he next returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.]

If I were the High Priest of Thor, I think my best bet would be to interpret "us" as myself and the Priest of Odin. At that point, I'd call Durkon over and order him to go out and draw in some sort of dangerous monster "home" where the two(3 if I want to include Durkon to be extra sure) of us meet great death and destruction on honorable enough terms. Raise Dead is optional, but Durkon might have to stay dead with his body cremated just to be extra sure.

Enlarge or rework it as necessary depending on the prophecy's conditions. It's essentially a more subdued version of Eugene's "civil war" proposal, with a hint of Tarquin's "death on my own acceptable terms".

[Keltest]

There is, of course, the completely unaccounted for possibility of Durkon redefining what he considers to be home due to his exile. Which would then suck for the Dwarves, as Durkon returns to his new home, has a sudden realization for his feelings for the place, and thus triggers the prophecy somehow.

Really, the stupid thing is so open ended that there isn't a course of action that can actually prevent it.

[Ironsmith]

Which is what Hurak tried to do. And it worked for him, too, the bastard. He managed to delay the prophecy long enough he was dead and presumably buried for years before it came true.

GW

That'd maybe fit in the same category, if he ever sent out orders for Durkon to return. What he did was basically "delay the prophecy until it's someone else's problem" without really preparing anybody else for the eventual consequences of these actions. And given that this was the "at least" of his actions and not the optimal goal, it's pretty clear he was trying to defy the prophecy, as opposed to preparing for it.


Personally, I feel like the best response to receiving a grim-as-sobriety prophecy is to try to "set it off" safely, as if it were a loaded gun that had to go off. In short, you try to fulfill the prophecy in an interpretation of it that's much more convenient for you. Taking the one we have with Durkon, for example:

[When he next returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.]

If I were the High Priest of Thor, I think my best bet would be to interpret "us" as myself and the Priest of Odin. At that point, I'd call Durkon over and order him to go out and draw in some sort of dangerous monster "home" where the two(3 if I want to include Durkon to be extra sure) of us meet great death and destruction on honorable enough terms. Raise Dead is optional, but Durkon might have to stay dead with his body cremated just to be extra sure.

Enlarge or rework it as necessary depending on the prophecy's conditions. It's essentially a more subdued version of Eugene's "civil war" proposal, with a hint of Tarquin's "death on my own acceptable terms".

This is closer to what I was suggesting. Basically, take it as fact that Durkon would indeed bring death and destruction home with him (intentionally or not) and be prepared to face death and destruction when it comes by (possibly even calling him back intentionally so you have the benefit of knowing when to expect said death and destruction). Hell, given the nature of the setting, just stocking up on scrolls of Raise Dead, Resurrection and Make Whole would probably have been an acceptable response. People die and stuff gets destroyed; we just bring them back and fix the damage.

[Wowlock]

I am not suprised to see another self-fullfilling prophecy. You would think people would stop trying to do things that actually CAUSE the damn prophecies to happen. Instead of talking about the issue and trying to come up with a solution...''Yea, exiling him will solve things...and probably won't cause any trouble in the future where he might come back as a vampire controlling his body ! ''

Vague prophecies are worst than not knowing anything.

[SaintRidley]

Why do dwarves look toward the *SKY* for heaven?!

Because the word heaven literally means sky.

[Draconi Redfir]

is this the first time the "durkon returning home" prophecy has been mentioned in comic? i know it was brought up in "the origin of PC's" or one of the other books, but i'm not sure if a reader who didn't get the books would be aware of it.

[unbeliever536]

If it were a question of when, not if, then I don't think Roy and Haley would have discussed it as a question of if. Haley and Roy both approached the question as if it would seriously hurt their chances of raising Durkon if they spent the money on their passage north. Their argument was too charged for the answer to be as simple as "we'll roll back around and raise Durkon after we save the world."

Durkon getting raised by the church of Thor would be poetic, indeed, but I doubt they have a spare priest capable of casting Resurrection. I suppose they could have a scroll.





"We'll try to collect the money again after we've successfully saved the world from an epic-level sorceror lich, who we'd be fighting without a key piece of our initial strategy, and who has epic or near-epic backup, assuming the gods don't decide to destroy it all anyway" is ... not exactly simple. It strikes me as an analog to Elan's "I guess we'll have to come back and deal with Tarquin's empire later" bit, which was very much a mixed victory for the heroes until Elan was able to hand off his strategy to Ian and the other rebels.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Possibly he didn't want Durkon to blame himself or live in fear of destroying his homeland? "Hate me, not yourself."

Durkon is a cleric of Thor, cursing in Thor's name. It may be that his curse has actual weight.

Telling him wouldn't have averted the fate, but it might have made D suffer more.

Actually, telling Durkon would have stopped the prophecy. Durkon brings Death and Destruction because the spirit crafted for him was based on Durkon's cursing of Hurak and the Church of Thor to Hel... He only cursed that because he was uninformed. A willing Durkon would have left and never returned, never been a suitable host, and sought contingencies (via the smarter Roy and V) to assure he never returned in any fashion.

But as we know, prophecies only work if you accept them. Defying a prophecy allows you to cheat it, loophole it, or twist it to your terms.

[Ruck]

I disagree with Roy.

Durkon breaking his leg to kick himself out the door would impede his ability to leave faster.

Durkon definitely treads just enough into Lawful Stupid territory for me to agree with Roy.


"What gets me is that he never just told Durkon what was going on"

An apparent plot hole that many people have commented on before. Are we about to get an explanation that removes the hole?

A character acting suboptimally isn't a "plot hole."


high priest prob assumed durkon was or was going to be an agent of hel/demons/other evil entities to didnt want to tell him

That's a generous assumption on your part; I don't see anything in the comic to suggest or support it. It's possible, but I'm not disposed to give Hurak a charitable reading myself. Indeed, if Hurak believed Durkon was Lawful enough to stay away when sent away, I'm inclined to think he would be Lawful enough to keep his word when he knows the actual reason.


His response to "there's a prophecy" is entirely on point as well. Prophecies never work out well for the mortals, and the gods have not given the Order any reason to trust them any more in the past few weeks.
I imagine it's also informed by the fact that he not only had to visit the Oracle a few times (I wonder if he ever realized he screwed up his question about the next gate once he was outside of the memory charm?), but that he also got to watch him in action and remember it afterward.


The only thing missing from the strip was Haley (Chaotics ARE good for that part) going "You deserve it. You deserve a bunch of vampires knocking on your door, you, as a society, deserve it." and proceeding to lambast the dwarves on Durkon's rights as an individual. :smallbiggrin:

That sounds more like a Britta Perry move.


"The road to Hel is often paved with good intentions." :P

I've been predicting this book will be titled To Hel With Good Intentions or some such.


Which is what Hurak tried to do. And it worked for him, too, the bastard. He managed to delay the prophecy long enough he was dead and presumably buried for years before it came true.

GW

Three years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html), to be exact. (Well, three plus the passage of time since the letter was written.)


Actually, telling Durkon would have stopped the prophecy. Durkon brings Death and Destruction because the spirit crafted for him was based on Durkon's cursing of Hurak and the Church of Thor to Hel... He only cursed that because he was uninformed. A willing Durkon would have left and never returned, never been a suitable host, and sought contingencies (via the smarter Roy and V) to assure he never returned in any fashion.

But as we know, prophecies only work if you accept them. Defying a prophecy allows you to cheat it, loophole it, or twist it to your terms.

I don't think any of your assumptions are necessarily true, and I think your conclusions certainly aren't.


So it's going to get complex?
I really hope this isn't where the hint that Durkon's mother is still alive is going. I've had enough fantasy incest for one year.


V's statement that there is a certain unfortunate logic to Hurak's actions is striking in it's simplicity and somber resignation.

:elan: Hurak's a genius! Don't you guys see? If he hadn't exiled Durkon, he never would have met up with the protagonists of the strip! And since we know this story has a happy ending, we can't lose! The Dwarves are saved!

[Quebbster]

:elan: Hurak's a genius! Don't you guys see? If he hadn't exiled Durkon, he never would have met up with the protagonists of the strip! And since we know this story has a happy ending, we can't lose! The Dwarves are saved!
Technically we only know Elan gets a happy ending. Everyone else may not be so lucky.

[Ruck]

Technically we only know Elan gets a happy ending. Everyone else may not be so lucky.

I don't think Elan would be happy with the death and destruction of the Dwarven race, whether or not it also includes destroying the world.

EDIT: Unrelated, I just looked at my copy of On the Origin of PCs again and notice that we've apparently retconned hair on the back of Hurak's head.

[M.A.D]

Looking back on this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html), I think Durkon's unfair treatment actually contributed to his lawfulness. I mean, the man got kicked out of his home, and despite that outburst of anger, he actually sucked it up and plowed forwards, even if it made him miserable. Especially if it made him miserable.


Funny what someone can find when reading all these old comics

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html
"Umm, maybe he'll come back as a Vampire or something"

...

sch

The Giant once drew a comic strip in Book 1 with a joke where Durkon became a vampire, and Roy thought he was just casting Turn Undead while the others were crying and saying that "Durkon turned undead". However, since he wanted continuity with the comic, that particular strip was never published, but Durkon was solidly planned to become a vampire eventually.


So, like...couldn't the dwarves have given Durkon two options, then?
1. Leave and never return
2. Never leave the village ever again

I mean, if he never leaves, he can't return "next time"...

In the context of Hurak's decision, he was defining "Durkon's home" as "his house, where him and his mother lives". That's why the exile order was carried out so swiftly and mercilessly, because Durkon was at the temple and already NOT at home by then, and they had to kick him out right away even without letting him go home to say goodbye to his mother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

Furthermore, I think Hurak did what he could with the prophecy while keeping his judgement of Durkon's character. From OtOoPC:

Hurak explained to the brewmaster Blackore that he can't risk Durkon going back to his house for some mundane thing like going shopping and then back.

That means Hurak had never expected Durkon himself to be the cause of their doom. He just probably assumed that the moment Durkon return home, some doom-ish thing might happen, like a meteorite dropped over the Dwarven Land or something. He already knew the lad to be a good, lawful one, so he did what he assumed to be the best solution, to send the good lad away with an order, trusting him to never violate it.

[Sinewmire]

I understand Hurak's reasoning.

Durkon has an elderly mother who he adores, who is getting arthritis in her one remaining hand. her house is Durkon's home.

Could Durkon really have stayed away, especially if he'd been given a chance to say goodbye?

Would Sigdi have let them exile her son?

He couldn't take that chance.

I still think he made a, what was it, "sub-optimal" choice, but I understand his reasoning.

[danielxcutter]

The exile part bites less than not even telling him why, IMHO. Because seriously, Roy's right. Heck, he might have even killed himself on the spot.

[Quebbster]

Hurak probably panicked too. His spontaneous reaction after hearing the prophecy is "But... [Durkon] is at home now!" to which the priest of Odin said "The prophecy says 'when he next returns home', not 'when he is home.". So basically Hurak knew the Clock was ticking and he needed to take immediate action - if he didn't, Durkon would have gone about his business when he woke up and at some Point he would have left his home and then returned to it.
By the way, the priest of Odin looks a lot cooler here. Yay for art upgrades!

[Goblin_Priest]

They could have arranged for him to meet with his family outside of dwarven lands, though, to say good-bye.

The prophecy seems somewhat clear, though. It starts with "when", not "if". Delaying the inevitable, if it means that all those concerned completely forget about it, is not a great way to deal with a threat. No matter how honorable Durkon is, relying on him keeping his word is foolish. Especially in a world with magic, where he can be forcefully returned home, either when dead, undead, teleported, enchanted, carried in the gut of a giant monster, etc. There are just so many ways he could have unwillingly returned home. Or be tricked to willingly return home.

Without telling him of the doom, and without telling anyone else of it, it just makes sure that when it does happen, no one will be prepared for it.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, only relying on his word is a bit stupid, for such reasons. Heck, who's to say that he ends up getting 'ported into his home because of Plane Shift or something?

That being said, I still think Hurak was an ass for not even letting him know why.

[Sinewmire]

They could have arranged for him to meet with his family outside of dwarven lands, though, to say good-bye.

The prophecy seems somewhat clear, though. It starts with "when", not "if". Delaying the inevitable, if it means that all those concerned completely forget about it, is not a great way to deal with a threat. No matter how honorable Durkon is, relying on him keeping his word is foolish. Especially in a world with magic, where he can be forcefully returned home, either when dead, undead, teleported, enchanted, carried in the gut of a giant monster, etc. There are just so many ways he could have unwillingly returned home. Or be tricked to willingly return home.

Without telling him of the doom, and without telling anyone else of it, it just makes sure that when it does happen, no one will be prepared for it.

Meeting with them, and seeing their suffering as age and infirmity creep up would have made Durkon determined to come home and help them, especially as Sigdi wouldn't have accepted money from him.

IIRC Hurak knew the prophecy couldn't be averted, but he hoped to at least delay it for as long as possible.

[2xMachina]

In hindsight, the best way to avoid the prophecy, was to make sure Durkon NEVER leaves the dwarven lands.

He can't return if he never leaves.

[Faramir]

Here's a defense of the old high priest. I think that he knew exactly how Durkon would react if he was told about the prophecy and he was trying to find a way to both spare Durkon's life and protect the dwarven lands.

Obviously it didn't work out but I'm betting his intentions were good.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

@Faramir:. Indeed.

For almost twenty years, Durkon and the Dwarven lands were spared. And Durkon at least got to keep the hope of an eventual return.

[Sir_Norbert]

The real question, I think, is why Odin chose to reveal this to his prophet in the first place, as its effect could only ever be to create a weapon aimed at the entire dwarven race.

That's a good question, though I don't agree about that being the only effect. Odin revealing the prophecy caused Durkon to be thrown out, causing him to join Roy and form the Order, which will eventually lead to the world being saved.

[endiku]

Y'all dummies are ignoring the real revelation here. Durkon's mother IS STILL ALIVE.

Durkon's.
Mother.
Is.
Alive.

Can no one think of a way in which this fact will affect the plot?

this in spades

[Grey_Wolf_c]

this in spades

I don't see what the big hoopla is about. We knew she was alive back when the High Priest of Thor's letter mentioned the passing of his grandfather but not his mother. Given she was alive about a year back, it would be really strange if she was now dead.

Now, what I find interesting is that she is well known to young acolytes of Thor. This suggests she has to be something more than a long-retired NCO. Going meta for a second, I would not be surprised if Durkon's unexplainable exile had pushed her out of retirement and into, say, politics, and has now risen to being the clan representative to the council, or some other position that means she will be involved in the coming festivities.

Grey Wolf

[Coolio Wolfus]

Can't wait to find out if Durkon eventually realises he's been to where his mother lost her arm and where his dad died already...

[Keltest]

Can't wait to find out if Durkon eventually realises he's been to where his mother lost her arm and where his dad died already...

He has? When? what?

[a_flemish_guy]

In hindsight, the best way to avoid the prophecy, was to make sure Durkon NEVER leaves the dwarven lands.

He can't return if he never leaves.

well like was already said, home is terribly abigious, it could be the dwarven lands, it could be his hometown, it could be his house

what I'd like to know though is why the hel didn't hurak tell his successor? or left her a memo? durkon is young for a dwarf and high priests are often already old so you'd have multiple ones in his lifetime so add a note in the "big book of high priests of thor" that durkon has a prophecy hanging above his head and he was never supposed to come back

also I think most people here have this notion that prophecies always have to come true (understandable with how it's mostly used), I don't think it's A will absolutely happen then B but rather if A happens then B will happen, if A never happens then B will also never happen

[AstralFire]

The joke has been that the old High Priest didn't have a good Int score, but I think it's worth noting that it's the highest Int party member who's most in agreement with the High Priest.

Also, dealing with prophecies strikes me more as a Wis talent than Int, though really high levels of Int can often substitute for other mental stats if given the opportunity.

It might be more a statement on the High Priest's amorality or abstract relationship to Durkon than on their wisdom.

[hroþila]

what I'd like to know though is why the hel didn't hurak tell his successor? or left her a memo?
Look, the trees don't warn you before attacking.

[Shining Wrath]

That final line - laugh and cry at the same time.

[Doug Lampert]

Just to be clear: I'm not saying "do nothing". I'm saying "take the prophecy coming true as fact and attempt to minimise the damages caused by it". Rather than attempt to avert it altogether, which never works, try to make it so that it coming true isn't as disastrous as it normally would be... kind of like the function of more mundane early warning systems.

Note that in comic that is the correct response, see the Oracle for an example. But he knows more about prophesy than any other character in the story.

[2D8HP]

They could have arranged for him to meet with his family outside of dwarven lands, though, to say good-bye....
well like was already said, home is terribly abigious, it could be the dwarven lands, it could be his hometown, it could be his house....


Hurak may have reasoned that if "Home is where the heart is", Durkon just meeting his family and friends may have triggered the prophecy.

I blame


The Norns,

Huginn and Muninn,

Odin

and,

Hurak

In that order.

:frown:

[Kardwill]

He chooses (2) and he comes back from a shopping trip to his home with his mother and brings death and destruction to them all.

Home is ambiguous. You are assuming it means "homeland" exclusively, that's not how prophesies work.

"And in his cell, Durkon found a new peace by looking in himself. And in the confine of his own soul, at last, he was Home"

"After a life feeling like a stranger, isolated from the other dwarves due to his curse, Durkon died, and in the cold confines of his ancestor's mausoleum, surrounded by the graves of his Mom and Dad, he was no longer a stranger. He was home again"

"That dwarven lead sarcophagus we found in the pit bears the arms of the Thundershield clan. Let's put in in the "Thundershield heroes from the 2nd millenia" exibition. Least we can do for the little guy is bringing him home"

"Welcome to Valhalla, my priest. Come and sit at my table among your brethren. Welcome to your new home"

Yeah, "Home" is a trap. At the instant the priest of Odin uttered that prophecy, they were doomed. Which is kinda obvious when you look at it : WHEN Durkon comes back home. Not "if", "when"
Best way to handle it could have been to accept the curse (Durkon will bring Death and Destruction to us all), and prepare for it, so that they are ready to fight back or mitigate the disaster when it happens. But it's a difficult choice when you've just learned everybody you know is in mortal danger and are panicking...

[Ruck]

In the context of Hurak's decision, he was defining "Durkon's home" as "his house, where him and his mother lives". That's why the exile order was carried out so swiftly and mercilessly, because Durkon was at the temple and already NOT at home by then, and they had to kick him out right away even without letting him go home to say goodbye to his mother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

Durkon was home when Hurak received the prophecy. Hurak went and got him out of bed and brought him to the temple.

[Coolio Wolfus]

Can't wait to find out if Durkon eventually realises he's been to where his mother lost her arm and where his dad died already...He has? When? what?
Note that if the Subtext1 fire breathing troll was actually the Scrawl defeating Kraggor2 and Durkon's father collapsed that part of the cave/dungeon to save the others, prior to having the rift sealed properly...

... It could quite easily be in the dungeon of Dorukan's Gate3 and it may also be why our dwarf was named Durkon5, but it would also mean Durkon had been to where his father 'died/went missing' etc.


The Subtext story fits if you remember they had all taken oaths not to discuss the gates.
One of the dwarves in the Subtext story looks a lot like Kraggor.
The dungeon was built by a company of dwarven contractors4 hired by Dorukan.
The contractors could easily include Sergeants and Sappers.
Since he wasn't born at the time, he may have been named after Dorukan6.
Durkon Allotrope is an anagram of Dorukan.
...

Bonus:The Subtext story is also color scribbled (Order of the Scribble) :smallwink:

[Reboot]

Look, everyone's missing the most important thing about this strip...

...someone's stolen Blackwing's leg-bauble! Which one of those greedy dwarfs dunnit?!

[SaintRidley]

Note that if the Subtext1 fire breathing troll was actually the Scrawl defeating Kraggor2 and Durkon's father collapsed that part of the cave/dungeon to save the others, prior to having the rift sealed properly...

... It could quite easily be in the dungeon of Dorukan's Gate3 and it may also be why our dwarf was named Durkon5, but it would also mean Durkon had been to where his father 'died/went missing' etc.


The Subtext story fits if you remember they had all taken oaths not to discuss the gates.
One of the dwarves in the Subtext story looks a lot like Kraggor.
The dungeon was built by a company of dwarven contractors4 hired by Dorukan.
The contractors could easily include Sergeants and Sappers.
Since he wasn't born at the time, he may have been named after Dorukan6.
Durkon Allotrope is an anagram of Dorukan.
...

Bonus:The Subtext story is also color scribbled (Order of the Scribble) :smallwink:


Minor snafu with your reasoning: the cave is near a dwarven village near Firmament. Which is not near Dorukan's dungeon.

[martianmister]

Look, everyone's missing the most important thing about this strip...

...someone's stolen Blackwing's leg-bauble! Which one of those greedy dwarfs dunnit?!

I bet it's the Brewmaster.

[Quebbster]

Note that if the Subtext1 fire breathing troll was actually the Scrawl defeating Kraggor2 and Durkon's father collapsed that part of the cave/dungeon to save the others, prior to having the rift sealed properly...

... It could quite easily be in the dungeon of Dorukan's Gate3 and it may also be why our dwarf was named Durkon5, but it would also mean Durkon had been to where his father 'died/went missing' etc.


The Subtext story fits if you remember they had all taken oaths not to discuss the gates.
One of the dwarves in the Subtext story looks a lot like Kraggor.
The dungeon was built by a company of dwarven contractors4 hired by Dorukan.
The contractors could easily include Sergeants and Sappers.
Since he wasn't born at the time, he may have been named after Dorukan6.
Durkon Allotrope is an anagram of Dorukan.
...

Bonus:The Subtext story is also color scribbled (Order of the Scribble) :smallwink:

A few problems with this theory...
1. Kraagor died when they were sealing the Gate at the North Pole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), beyond the Dwarven lands. Dorukan's Gate was in the Redmountain Hills, and while we do not know where that is it is at least safe to assume it was south of the Dwarven lands.
2. The Order of the Scribble's adventures happened around 65 years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), and Durkon is only 55 years old. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html) I don't know how long dwarves' gestation periods are, but I doubt they are pregnant for a full decade.
3.

It might work out better if you don't try to shoehorn Kraagor and the Snarl into it though. Durkon's parents may have been around when Dorukan was constructing his dungeon, and they may have accidentally released a half-dragon troll during the construction. Still, it's a stretch.

[Peelee]

Look, the trees don't warn you before attacking.

The thread can only go downhill from here.

[schmunzel]

...snip...

Hurak is a bastard who deserves to end in Hel for plenty of reasons, but the logic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_game) thread of getting Durkon out of the dwarven lands forever ASAP is solid.

GW

What exactly are the plenty of reasons for which he deserves to end in Hel??

sch

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What exactly are the plenty of reasons for which he deserves to end in Hel??

sch

Off the top of my head:

Exiling Durkon without an explanation
Not making allowance to have him say good bye to his family, of which he was sole support
Not making preparations for when the prophecy came to pass
Not informing his successor of the prophecy


Or, in short: being a cowardly git.

GW

[Chei]

Off the top of my head:

Not making preparations for when the prophecy came to pass
Not informing his successor of the prophecy


GW

Yeah, from what we can tell, he exiled Durkon and called it a day. That's the absolute worst way to handle a prophecy - literally doing nothing and letting events take their course is a better idea than taking one extreme measure and then forgetting about it.

It's clear, though, that this prophecy was intended to be self-fulfilling by Odin. Walk up to a jumpy old high priest and be all: "Hey, one of your new clerics will bring Death and Destruction when he returns home, SO DON'T EXILE HIM OR ANYTHING (wink wink, nudge nudge)." In a world where gods can legitimately see the future and effect change in mortal behavior, I have a hard time determining just how much agency Hurak really had in his choices.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's clear, though, that this prophecy was intended to be self-fulfilling by Odin.
I disagree. Odin delivered a warning of bad things to come. I chose to believe that he gave as much detail as he could, because I don't think Odin wanted this to happen. The yarn within yarn looked black or something and he delivered a warning. Hurak then chose to respond to said warning in a cowardly way.

As to whether it was truly self-fulfilling? Yes, by the very nature of the prophecy. But I can see Durkon being given the full story, and the choice to do something, and he would have still left, and would still have tried to save Belkar and ended up vampirized. And Greg would have still found a reason to come to the Dwarven lands to hurt those Durkon loved. Hurak doesn't get a free pass just because it's a prophecy. Death is also inevitable. No choice in your entire life is going to prevent the prophecy: "one day, you will die" from coming to pass, and yet the choices in the process count a great deal.

Grey Wolf

[alwaysbebatman]

Bringing up Hurak's agency really begs the question of exactly how does prophecy work, anyway?

Is it like a Xanatos Gambit, where you are free to make any choice, but no matter what you do, there's a different plan to take you to the prophecy coming true?

Or is it like a Batman gambit, where you are free to make any choice, and only one leads to the prophecy, but the prophecy knows in advance (because magic) that that's the one you're going to make?

Or is it like Longshot's probability power, where the prophecy actually rigs things to get to the foreordained results? And does that include decisions that are normally free-willed? Or are you free to make individual decisions, but the prophecy rigs other odds so it still comes to the foreordained result?

I think any if those options could make for an interesting system for prophecy magic, but (I may be biased but) the Batman gambit option seems simplest.

And in almost all of the options, Hurak is still morally responsible for his decisions. And in most, the "impossible to defuse bomb" strategy others have proposed is your best bet.

[Kish]

Belkar is Chaotic. Chaotics hate to see an individual's rights being eschewed "for the sake of the group".
Except for Chaotic Evils, who generally don't care in the least about the concept of rights, hate to see their own ability to act being curtailed for anything, but are perfectly happy to turn other people into their slaves. See: Xykon.

[factotum]

I disagree. Odin delivered a warning of bad things to come. I chose to believe that he gave as much detail as he could, because I don't think Odin wanted this to happen.

But the problem there is that prophecy--true prophecy, the stuff the Oracle comes out with and presumably what Odin gives--is unavoidable. This particular prophecy gives you no wiggle room as to the death and destruction, so all you can change about it is *when* it's going to happen--and even then that might not work; e.g. Hurak could have told Durkon to go on a mission to human society and come back in 25 years with what he learned, and the whole "being made a vampire" thing still means he comes back early before all the preparations have been made.

Frankly, this is why prophecy is never actually useful for the characters who get it in a story, because there's usually no way to tell exactly how and when the prophecy will happen; so all that people can ever do is look back after events and say, "So *that* was the fulfilment of that prophecy!". If Hurak had not exiled Durkon then the prophecy would have found some other way to come true and we'd probably be blaming Hurak for not avoiding that...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

we'd probably be blaming Hurak for not avoiding that...

I take exception to this. I am not blaming Hurak for failing to avoid a prophecy. I'm blaming him for the damage done to Durkon and his family as a consequence of his chosen course of action, and the lack of further actions regarding preparing for the inevitability of the prophecy.

Again: if I give you the prophecy "one day, you will die", I am not expecting you to come up with a way to evade said prophecy. But if you chose to borrow large amounts of money from your loved ones and use it to go on a binge, I will judge you far worse than if you instead work to make sure that they are prepared for your passing.

Grey Wolf

[Chei]

I disagree. Odin delivered a warning of bad things to come. I chose to believe that he gave as much detail as he could, because I don't think Odin wanted this to happen. The yarn within yarn looked black or something and he delivered a warning. Hurak then chose to respond to said warning in a cowardly way.
Grey Wolf

I mean I totally agree that Hurak, with the information provided to him, acted in a cowardly way. But I think you're kind of giving a really generous interpretation to this god here. He gave a prophecy to his own priest, who then told Hurak, who overreacted in, as V said, a somewhat logical way. We're not even sure if Durkon was ever supposed to hear the prophecy concerning him. We can't know the rules for gods/priests passing on prophecy to those of other religions, but it seems lax to the point of idiocy to not at least ensure the subject hears about it himself, if such is intended. Maybe it's a habeas corpus thing, where the last person who hears the prophecy has the duty to carry it on. What if Odin's priest had simply not told Hurak? Did Odin command him to tell Hurak? What if, hypothetically, Odin had said nothing?

We know, looking from above, that events worked out as Odin's prophecy stated because of Hurak's cowardice. I don't think that absolves him of blame, but it does make him a pawn in the game, not a player. Odin is definitely a player.

[Kish]

I don't think Rich really means prophecies to say something about the gods (I say after years of reading posts about how Belkar's death is only Tiamat's opinion, or even something Tiamat's going to try to cause).

For that matter, I don't get the impression he means gods to be moral entities except when they're being thoroughly evil; he may highlight Hel's cruelty or the Dark One's selfishness, but he's never shown anything highlighting any of the gods showing a virtue (unless one considers Thor's willingness to argue ridiculous loopholes with Hel as such, which I don't). But particularly where prophecies are involved, Tiamat/Odin seem more like handwave vessels for the prophecies to exist than actual players in them.

[Quebbster]

Frankly, this is why prophecy is never actually useful for the characters who get it in a story, because there's usually no way to tell exactly how and when the prophecy will happen; so all that people can ever do is look back after events and say, "So *that* was the fulfilment of that prophecy!". If Hurak had not exiled Durkon then the prophecy would have found some other way to come true and we'd probably be blaming Hurak for not avoiding that...

I want to point out that Haley said her prophecy did indeed help her overcome her speech impediment. It can also be argued Belkar's prophecy was helpful since killing the Oracle helped him overcome the Mark of Justice, though that's more of a stretch.
Durkon's and V's prophecies were pure foreshadowing that didn't help them at all. I presume the same will hold true for Elan's prophecy though that remains to be seen. Roy's question was just played for laughs (and Blackwing's too for that matter).

[Peelee]

I don't think Rich really means prophecies to say something about the gods (I say after years of reading posts about how Belkar's death is only Tiamat's opinion, or even something Tiamat's going to try to cause).

Tiamat having a vested interest in Belkar's death is certainly a new one for me. Kinda wish I'd been able to see the train of thought on that one.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I don't get why Roy calls it, "unfair". It's Durkon's proper duty as a cleric of Thor to fulfill his mission (a mission which Firuk conveniently forgets to mention in this strip), as given to him by the High Priest of Thor. The obligations came with the position and power of being a cleric.

Honestly, it's kinder of Hurak to give Durkon a meaningful mission and purpose, and a hope of returning, rather than a prophecy of horrible doom, or an unexplained banishment. Any missionary can tell you the difference between serving a mission and being banished for no reason.



By the prophecy's conditions, Durkon simply cannot be allowed to go home to say goodbye. The fewer people there are who know of the prophecy (an easy way to bring death and destruction to the Dwarves), the less risk there is of anyone trying to bring it about.

I'd compare it to discovering a functional, but not yet detonated, nuclear weapon. Secret removal, with as few people knowing as possible that there was even a risk at all, is best. Keep need-to-know information restricted to those who need to know. Any writing of it could be stolen or otherwise discovered. The fact that High Priestess Rubyrock did not know of the prophecy is a failure by both Firuk and Hurak, but mostly Firuk (because as long as Hurak is alive, Rubyrock does not actually need to know).

[hroþila]

Firuk probably failed to mention Durkon's "mission" because he knew the mission was poppycock and not actually a thing.

Anyway, as for the whole prophecy thing, I'm a lot less flexible than most: the prophecy already takes into account whatever anybody does or doesn't do to prevent it from coming true. If Hurak had been the type to just ignore prophecies and hope for the best, then there wouldn't have been a prophecy at all for Hurak to ignore.

[Ruck]

Belkar is Chaotic. Chaotics hate to see an individual's rights being eschewed "for the sake of the group".


Except for Chaotic Evils, who generally don't care in the least about the concept of rights, hate to see their own ability to act being curtailed for anything, but are perfectly happy to turn other people into their slaves. See: Xykon.

And as I think someone else said already, Belkar's reaction is probably rooted more in his feelings about Durkon and specifically the fact that Durkon sacrificed himself to save Belkar's life.

[8BitNinja]

Why do dwarves look toward the *SKY* for heaven?!

They don't, they look at the mountain hall ceiling.

[Valley]

I don't understand why they kicked him out in the first place. If death and blah-blah-blah happens if Durkon returns then just explain to him the issue and give him a permanent job at home. If he never LEAVES he can't RETURN. :smallsigh:

But I am sure somebody has already pointed this out years ago. :smallsmile:

[Svata]

Because while NOW it means "returns to his homeland" it could just have easily (at the time) meant "the next time he returns to his HOUSE".

[Goblin_Priest]

Hurak may have reasoned that if "Home is where the heart is", Durkon just meeting his family and friends may have triggered the prophecy.

I blame


The Norns,

Huginn and Muninn,

Odin

and,

Hurak

In that order.

:frown:

I find that to be an incredible stretch. If he'd apply that logic, it'd be countered by the fact that Durkon could make himself a new home to return to.

[Jasdoif]

I want to point out that Haley said her prophecy did indeed help her overcome her speech impediment.Hm. Doesn't ring any bells....When did that happen?

[Kish]

Because while NOW it means "returns to his homeland" it could just have easily (at the time) meant "the next time he returns to his HOUSE".
Yes, they would have needed to have Durkon spend the rest of his life in the temple, of course.

Still not seeing what the problem with that would have been, as long as Durkon knew why that was necessary and why he must never leave it again (for the dwarves; for Rich, of course, it would have meant no story).

Hm. Doesn't ring any bells....When did that happen?
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html).

[Jasdoif]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html).That looks like a lot like Haley saying the prophecy turned out to be correct, rather than saying the prophecy had anything to do with helping her overcome her speech impediment, though.

[Coolio Wolfus]

Minor snafu with your reasoning: the cave is near a dwarven village near Firmament. Which is not near Dorukan's dungeon.
The cave is completely unrelated to the actual location, it's a subtext that hints at the truth.


A few problems with this theory...
1. Kraagor died when they were sealing the Gate at the North Pole, beyond the Dwarven lands. Dorukan's Gate was in the Redmountain Hills, and while we do not know where that is it is at least safe to assume it was south of the Dwarven lands.

2. The Order of the Scribble's adventures happened around 65 years ago, and Durkon is only 55 years old. I don't know how long dwarves' gestation periods are, but I doubt they are pregnant for a full decade.

3. It might work out better if you don't try to shoehorn Kraagor and the Snarl into it though. Durkon's parents may have been around when Dorukan was constructing his dungeon, and they may have accidentally released a half-dragon troll during the construction. Still, it's a stretch.

Point conceded.
#276 Last panel - 'In time, they developed a design for a mystic gate...'
Even omitting Kraagor, it could still have been Snarl seeing that the rifts were not 'Locked' until the gates were built.

[Keltest]

That looks like a lot like Haley saying the prophecy turned out to be correct, rather than saying the prophecy had anything to do with helping her overcome her speech impediment, though.

Indeed. In the actual scene where she decided to go along with "Elan", the prophecy wasn't even brought up in her internal decision making process. In Haley's case, the prophecy was sufficiently vague as to be useless even if it was technically correct.

[M.A.D]

I want to point out that Haley said her prophecy did indeed help her overcome her speech impediment. It can also be argued Belkar's prophecy was helpful since killing the Oracle helped him overcome the Mark of Justice, though that's more of a stretch.
Durkon's and V's prophecies were pure foreshadowing that didn't help them at all. I presume the same will hold true for Elan's prophecy though that remains to be seen. Roy's question was just played for laughs (and Blackwing's too for that matter).

IMO, those are less prophecy and more like divination. As in asking for advice and receive counselling from the divine.. Haley specifically asked for it, so that's what she gets when following instruction. Belkar never asked for his MoJ removed, so it's just a bonus. These two cases are unrelated to another and neither of them are similar to Hurak's prophecy. In Hurak's case, a prediction of a predetermined event from God came to him, and it's up to his own decision to deal with it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

So, question, both in general and in terms of this comic... if presented with a prophecy, vaguely-worded, prone to double meanings and without any instructions on how to see it to completion or avert it, why do anything with it at all? More often than not, attempting to avert a prophecy results in its coming to fruition (such as the case with poor Durkon here), so wouldn't the best course of action be to basically just say "eh" and batten down the hatches should the worst happen?
Inaction is an action. Doing nothing is still choosing something. If the future is what it is, that choice would lead to it as surely as any other. The difference is that, when calamity comes, you will know that you did nothing to solve it.
Also, acting on limited information is better than not acting at all (or acting on no information).



I am not suprised to see another self-fullfilling prophecy. You would think people would stop trying to do things that actually CAUSE the damn prophecies to happen.
The problem is, if Fate's in a fickle enough mood, just about any course of action can set the prophecy in motion. Oedipus Rex is the classic example, and for good reason. "My son is going to kill me and screw my wife? Let's just kill him, corpses can't do that."


Instead of talking about the issue and trying to come up with a solution...''Yea, exiling him will solve things...and probably won't cause any trouble in the future where he might come back as a vampire controlling his body ! ''
Somehow, if that possibility did come up, I doubt anyone would take it too seriously. With the information they had at the time, where was no reason to think Durkon would become a vampire, nor that said vampire would want to attack the dwarven lands. It would probably be likelier that he angered some monster on the way south and accidentally lead it home while trying to fight it.



The real question, I think, is why Odin chose to reveal this to his prophet in the first place, as its effect could only ever be to create a weapon aimed at the entire dwarven race. I wonder if Hel didn't somehow convince Loki to disguise himself as Odin and reveal it for a laugh.
Whatever he tells you, the god ain't perfect. It's possible that he didn't look carefully enough at the future before warning his people. It's possible that he couldn't look carefully enough to see how the calamity came. Or, perhaps, the revelation slipped from divine energy to mortal followers quicker than he could think "Is this a good idea?" It's even possible that he's required to impart visions of the future to anyone who casts the spell, lest he break a covenant with his church and lose everything (including his standing among his family, which would really suck come Thanksgiving dinner).



Really, the stupid thing is so open ended that there isn't a course of action that can actually prevent it.
It's one of the cleverest kinds of prophecy out there. Though the first prize still goes to the kind of prophecy which is guaranteed to be true in one interpretation or another no matter what happens.



The exile part bites less than not even telling him why, IMHO. Because seriously, Roy's right. Heck, he might have even killed himself on the spot.
Don't be silly; he would have picked a fight with an ornery tree to die with honor.
And then when they brought his body home, the tree spores that got stuck in his wounds would blossom into something that caused death and destruction. Maybe orcwort.



I don't know how long dwarves' gestation periods are, but I doubt they are pregnant for a full decade.
No matter what the math says. (http://theglen.livejournal.com/282764.html)

[Snails]

In Hurak's case, a prediction of a predetermined event from God came to him, and it's up to his own decision to deal with it.

And that is the right way to look at the dilemma, IMO. His first duty to help his flock meet their fates with honor, not try and cheat a destiny that it is unclear even Odin can understand. Durkon passed his test in spite of carrying the added burden of Hurak's failure.

[Snails]

Inaction is an action. Doing nothing is still choosing something. If the future is what it is, that choice would lead to it as surely as any other. The difference is that, when calamity comes, you will know that you did nothing to solve it.
Also, acting on limited information is better than not acting at all (or acting on no information).

That is clear as mud reasoning. It matters whether and how much you believe the prophecy. If the foretold fate is unavoidable, then acting erratically in the vague hope that doing the wrong thing will save you somehow is not meaningfully more an action than inaction is. If the foretold fate is avoidable, then you must have a theory why a course of action really really makes sense when there is so much that is impossible to fathom.

In this case, Hurak trusted Durkon's honor (to stay away out of blind obedience) while not trusting Durkon's honor (that staying away to save the Dwarven nation was a worthy cause to suffer for). That is not defensible moral reasoning. It is the grasping of a panicked man.

That is one of the implied points Roy is making.

[F.Harr]

O.K., this feels like the setup for a greater revelation.

[Necris Omega]

I still think the wiser choice would have been to essentially sentence/assign Durkon to "you can never leave our homeland because Odin says we'll all die if you do." And I stick with the homeland interpretation.

Unless Durkon buys some tainted beer and cheese, takes it home, eats it, and farts the clanhold to death, I don't see how him returning back to his house would result in him bringing death and destruction. If he's to bring death and destruction, he has to go fetch it first, and baring the fantastically ridiculous, that's going to take more than a trip to the local tavern.

Make him stay put and invest the necessary means of researching the prophecy properly to deal with it beyond blindly shoving the Dwarf out the door and hoping he doesn't take it personally. And it isn't like the High Priest knew Durkon well enough to make that call, otherwise he would have known that the safer bet would have been to use Durkon's sense of duty and loyalty to ensure he stayed exiled.

Forget vampirism - what was done to everyone's favorite Dwarven Cleric is the sort of thing that kicks off a lot of Blackguard origin stories. Durkon's exile and how it was handled wasn't just tempting fate, but sitting in fate's lap in a skimpy dress making bedroom eyes at it.

[Lordchoculla]

Will the gods get more involved? I for one and itching to see some hard Thor action! :smalltongue:

I must admit that I have not yet read all the posts here for #1096. However, a few thoughts.

First of all, why are people angry with Hurak? While he may be the one who exiled Durkon, he was not the reciepient of the prophecy. The 'priest of Odin' was. So the anger should be directed to this ... so far... unknown priest.

Secondly, as for "will the gods get more involved"... what if they already are involved? What if the so far unknown 'prist of Odin' was in fact Odin himself initiating a series of events that are meant to save the world? Despite the pain it has caused Durkon it may have been necessary in order to save the world. A bittersweet thought if true.

So I ask of you all: Could the priest of Odin be in fact Odin himself? While not directly working against Hel or anybody else and thus not directly breaking any oaths or other limitations to the involvement of the gods, it still may be a way to do things. Zeus usually did that in Greek mythology, if I remember correctly. You may call it 'interference by proxy', perhaps. This, incidentally, would make Durkon the most vital player in this game!

[B. Dandelion]

Well, I'm glad at least some people aren't inclined to jump on board "Team Hurak Did Nothing Wrong". For a while it seemed the entire thread there was going to be nothing but defenses of him. I think the fact that he was (understandably) afraid of the prophecy is certainly a mitigating factor in evaluating his behavior, but at the very least it was needlessly cruel to keep Durkon out of the loop. He knew he wasn't doing right by him or by his family, or he wouldn't have had to hope that Thor forgave him someday (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

I also admittedly don't see the problem with just keeping Durkon confined to temple grounds, which is where he was sleeping when Hurak came to wake him in Origin. But even if you're determined to wrangle some definition of "home" out of there that makes exile look like the better option, what is the justification for literally throwing him out into the snow with hardly any money and no idea what he'd done wrong to deserve such treatment? And no reassurance that his aging mother would be cared for, just a vague "she means a lot to us" and a plea for forgiveness. Hurak wasn't really treating him like a loyal servant of Thor he had a responsibility towards, he was panicking and treating him like an immediate threat they had to get out the door ASAP. It's kind of understandable to freak out under those circumstances, but it's by no means the right thing to do, and it's certainly not behavior you want out of a leader. Just a smidgen more patience and compassion from Hurak would have gone an enormous way with Durkon, and I think it's perfectly fair to criticize Hurak for failing him. That he simultaneously failed to avert the prophecy is just the icing on top of that failure sundae.

[Ironsmith]

Well, I'm glad at least some people aren't inclined to jump on board "Team Hurak Did Nothing Wrong". For a while it seemed the entire thread there was going to be nothing but defenses of him. I think the fact that he was (understandably) afraid of the prophecy is certainly a mitigating factor in evaluating his behavior, but at the very least it was needlessly cruel to keep Durkon out of the loop. He knew he wasn't doing right by him or by his family, or he wouldn't have had to hope that Thor forgave him someday (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

I also admittedly don't see the problem with just keeping Durkon confined to temple grounds, which is where he was sleeping when Hurak came to wake him in Origin. But even if you're determined to wrangle some definition of "home" out of there that makes exile look like the better option, what is the justification for literally throwing him out into the snow with hardly any money and no idea what he'd done wrong to deserve such treatment? And no reassurance that his aging mother would be cared for, just a vague "she means a lot to us" and a plea for forgiveness. Hurak wasn't really treating him like a loyal servant of Thor he had a responsibility towards, he was panicking and treating him like an immediate threat they had to get out the door ASAP. It's kind of understandable to freak out under those circumstances, but it's by no means the right thing to do, and it's certainly not behavior you want out of a leader. Just a smidgen more patience and compassion from Hurak would have gone an enormous way with Durkon, and I think it's perfectly fair to criticize Hurak for failing him. That he simultaneously failed to avert the prophecy is just the icing on top of that failure sundae.

Agreed. Hurak's response, whether predicted by the prophecy or not, was certainly not the right response. Throwing the dwarf that's the subject of a doom prophecy out of the temple without a shred of compassion in regards to him and giving him a lot of reasons to resent the dwarven people, on top of being cruel, was still a stupid thing to do.

And frankly, claiming Hurak had no agency in the prophecy doesn't do much to absolve him. The prophecy worked out the way it did because Hurak behaved the way he did, so even if one wanted to argue that the concept of predestination robbed Hurak of any choice in the matter... not really. Hurak's actions were accounted for, but they were still his actions; Odin's priest passing on the prophecy didn't immediately obligate Hurak into a rigid series of events that led to him deciding to throw Durkon out, he made that decision himself.

EDIT: Also, additional point to this whole discussion... the prophecy actually hasn't come to fruition yet. Durkon's come home, yes, and he's certainly been responsible for the death of at least one named member of the clergy (brother Sandstone) and what looks to be three other clerics (unless one of them got ripped in two or something), but that's still a far cry from "death and destruction on us all". With that in mind, who's to say the prophecy (or the one delivering it, for that matter) was legitimate at all?

[a_flemish_guy]

I still think the wiser choice would have been to essentially sentence/assign Durkon to "you can never leave our homeland because Odin says we'll all die if you do." And I stick with the homeland interpretation.

Unless Durkon buys some tainted beer and cheese, takes it home, eats it, and farts the clanhold to death, I don't see how him returning back to his house would result in him bringing death and destruction. If he's to bring death and destruction, he has to go fetch it first, and baring the fantastically ridiculous, that's going to take more than a trip to the local tavern.

Make him stay put and invest the necessary means of researching the prophecy properly to deal with it beyond blindly shoving the Dwarf out the door and hoping he doesn't take it personally. And it isn't like the High Priest knew Durkon well enough to make that call, otherwise he would have known that the safer bet would have been to use Durkon's sense of duty and loyalty to ensure he stayed exiled.

Forget vampirism - what was done to everyone's favorite Dwarven Cleric is the sort of thing that kicks off a lot of Blackguard origin stories. Durkon's exile and how it was handled wasn't just tempting fate, but sitting in fate's lap in a skimpy dress making bedroom eyes at it.

well it's a prophecy, so normal logic doesn't apply here and A durkon returning home and B death and destruction needn't necesarily be logically linked

"when this stone falls it will start to rain" could be a prophecy but that doesn't mean that the stone falling does so in a way that gives rain

it could have been so that the next time durkon returned home a giant meteor were to fall on the city, the meteor has nothing to do with durkon except for the prophecy part

I do agree with your analysis though, they're lucky that beyond being just a dwarf durkon was also raised with a massive sense of duty

[Sapphire Guard]

For someone like Durkon, the knowledge that he is a walking time bomb would likely cause more suffering to him than believing he was exiled for no reason. He'd spend all his life wondering 'is this it?' every time something vaguely threatening happened, wouldn't allow himself to settle anywhere, would be terrified instead of overjoyed when the oracle told him he would go home 'posthumously, etc.


Note that in comic that is the correct response, see the Oracle for an example. But he knows more about prophesy than any other character in the story.]

That only works if you're an oracle that knows exactly what the prophecy means with no ambiguity. Having Durkon go to Azure City and buy dogs named 'Death' and 'Destruction' to donate to the temple doesn't mean that the other kind won't happen.

[B. Dandelion]

Hurak sent Durkon away to prevent the prophecy from coming to pass, so why should Durkon believe he was a walking time bomb because Hurak explained that? Wouldn't he just Lawfully defer to the knowledge of his superior and dutifully go out believing he was making a sacrifice for the good of all?

[Kish]

I must admit that I have not yet read all the posts here for #1096. However, a few thoughts.

First of all, why are people angry with Hurak? While he may be the one who exiled Durkon, he was not the reciepient of the prophecy. The 'priest of Odin' was. So the anger should be directed to this ... so far... unknown priest.
HUH?

Er...believe it or not, you do in fact need to explain the reasoning behind "exiling Durkon is not morally culpable, receiving a prophecy is," not merely assume it will be immediately obvious to everyone.

[hroþila]

Maybe "shoot the messenger" was always meant as a recommendation and we were not in the loop?

[factotum]

Er...believe it or not, you do in fact need to explain the reasoning behind "exiling Durkon is not morally culpable, receiving a prophecy is," not merely assume it will be immediately obvious to everyone.

Well, the high priest of Odin didn't actually need to pass the prophecy along to Hurak, so I suppose he gets the blame for that...although, logically, Durkon was a priest in Hurak's temple, so Hurak is the most logical person to be given this information? I don't see much blame attaching to the HPoO here, to be honest.

[Kardwill]

Unless Durkon buys some tainted beer and cheese, takes it home, eats it, and farts the clanhold to death, I don't see how him returning back to his house would result in him bringing death and destruction.

Yeah, the "next time" in the prophecy is tricky. But prophecies are fun to mess with, so let's do it ^^

Durkon learns about the prophecy, and it is decided he must never leave the town. Since Durkon is, well, Durkon, he decides to go one step further, and never go back to his mom's home. From now on, he'll live in the temple of Thor.
Flash-Forward to the great orc invasion, 23 years later. Firmament being close to the surface, its upper tunnels (including the temple and Sigdi's house) are lost, but the heroic defenders (Including Durkon, because, well, no way Durkon wouldn't grab a weapon and defend his hometown.) manage to slow the enemy long enough to get the civilians through the tunnel to the inner city. They prepare to close the Gate, count heads, and realize that Sigdi is not among the refugees.
In a moment of panic, Durkon decides to jump back into the burning city to go home and get her, and as many of the people still surviving in this mess. His comrades, inspired by his bravery, try to hold the gate long enough for him, and any other survivor, to come back, but they wait for too long. They are overrun by the dragon that lead the orcish horde, leading to the destruction of the inner city and the slaughter of the whole population.

Outsmarting a prophecy is hard. Those are always nebulous enough to come and bite you in the ass later. :P

[newcresty]

Have anyone thought that "Death and Destruction" may refer to Vampire Durkon domains?

[Windscion]

Have anyone thought that "Death and Destruction" may refer to Vampire Durkon domains?
This was suggested a while back. But in light of what we now know, it is of course considered absurd. Why do you ask?

[Kardwill]

It's been mentionned a few strips ago, yeah.

The "bring D&D to us all" sounds a little more ominous than simple clever wordplay about the D&D rules, though

[newcresty]

This was suggested a while back. But in light of what we now know, it is of course considered absurd. Why do you ask?

Well, the meaning of Home it's being discussed, as is, homeland, his house, his friends, his family, plenty of meanings for "Home", it could go one way or the other and the prophecy would be fullfilled

The wording of the prophecy can be tricky, but it also could be the meaning, Hurak could misinterpret what Home could be, but he could also misinterpret what Death and Destruction could be, just my two cents, probably not even close, but its a possibility

[Peelee]

Well, the meaning of Home it's being discussed, as is, homeland, his house, his friends, his family, plenty of meanings for "Home", it could go one way or the other and the prophecy would be fullfilled

The wording of the prophecy can be tricky, but it also could be the meaning, Hurak could misinterpret what Home could be, but he could also misinterpret what Death and Destruction could be, just my two cents, probably not even close, but its a possibility

Assume that his domains are indeed Death and Destruction. He's still bringing actual death and destruction. Making a distinction here is meaningless semantics.

[Ironsmith]

Assume that his domains are indeed Death and Destruction. He's still bringing actual death and destruction. Making a distinction here is meaningless semantics.

Not quite. If he's bringing magic of the Death and Destruction domains, then it's possible by the prophecy's terms that he'll bring it and then not (get a chance to) use it. Alternatively, if he's bringing death and destruction "to us all", it would imply that his plan succeeds, he causes a genocide, or some other much bigger form of devastation takes place.

[Kish]

I suppose if one thought the overt meaning of the prophecy requires the death of all dwarves rather than being satisfied with the death of a dozen or so priests of Thor and Odin as part of an ultimately-thwarted scheme to destroy the world, they could say the prophecy actually pointed to his domains to justify Greg being stoppable. But really, I think he's already done enough to justify the prophecy, and will kill more dwarves before he's stopped.

Edited: Ironsmith made what I was guessing at explicit while I was posting. And yes, I know Greg hasn't killed any priests of Odin on-panel.

[Peelee]

Not quite. If he's bringing magic of the Death and Destruction domains, then it's possible by the prophecy's terms that he'll bring it and then not (get a chance to) use it. Alternatively, if he's bringing death and destruction "to us all", it would imply that his plan succeeds, he causes a genocide, or some other much bigger form of devastation takes place.

I find it strange that the clause "to us all" only applies to actual death and destruction, but not the magical domains.

[Unoriginal]

Bringing up Hurak's agency really begs the question of exactly how does prophecy work, anyway?

Is it like a Xanatos Gambit, where you are free to make any choice, but no matter what you do, there's a different plan to take you to the prophecy coming true?

Or is it like a Batman gambit, where you are free to make any choice, and only one leads to the prophecy, but the prophecy knows in advance (because magic) that that's the one you're going to make?

Or is it like Longshot's probability power, where the prophecy actually rigs things to get to the foreordained results? And does that include decisions that are normally free-willed? Or are you free to make individual decisions, but the prophecy rigs other odds so it still comes to the foreordained result?

I think any if those options could make for an interesting system for prophecy magic, but (I may be biased but) the Batman gambit option seems simplest.

And in almost all of the options, Hurak is still morally responsible for his decisions. And in most, the "impossible to defuse bomb" strategy others have proposed is your best bet.

From what we see, in OotS world's, what a prophet or seer gives is an information that something has happened/is happening/will happen.

There is no plan to make the prophecy come true or not, on a cosmic level (on a mortal level, people do try to influence the results), and the prophecy doesn't "know" anything because it is not an entity.

A prophecy is just an indication that at some point in time, something that fits one of the possible interpretations of the wording will happen, so anything can happen as long as it eventually fits one of said interpretations.

For all we know, if Durkon had made it home rather than getting banished, he'd have won a lifetime supply of Death&Destruction Breakfast Cereals ("the best cereals to eat with beer!") and would have shared it with the whole town. Or he could have found two dead mages whose familiars were called Death and Destruction and would have brought them to tell the clergy of Odin how the mages died.

[Ironsmith]

I find it strange that the clause "to us all" only applies to actual death and destruction, but not the magical domains.

My apologies for the lack of a distinction. Let me try that again.

-If he brings Death and Destruction (magic domains) "to us all", he can just walk into a public place and get dusted on sight and it would still fit the prophecy, since he would have indeed brought Death and Destruction magic with him to the dwarven population.

-If he brings death and destruction (actual, physical devastation) "to us all", he causes a genocide, extinction event, or some event closely related, according to the prophecy.

[Quibblicious]

They don't, they look at the mountain hall ceiling.

So if a dwarf goes to the LG mountain after they die, do they climb the mountain from the inside?

Q

[Shining Wrath]

The problem with trying to avoid a prophecy is that each and every word has to be defined unambiguously.

For example, I've heard people who grew up in a religious tradition, left it, and then returned, refer to that return as "coming home".

So ...

You can do anything with the location of Durkon's body you care to imagine. If he loses faith in Thor, works through the loss of faith, and then regains his faith in his deity - by some readings of the word, he's "coming home" - even if the location of his body has not changed one millimeter.

If you take the reading that a faithful dwarf's eternal home is with Thor, and this world is not a permanent home, then killing Durkon while he retained his faith could in fact be described as sending him home. Ever hear someone use the expression "He was called home" to refer to a person who died?

There's literally no way to avoid a prophecy if that prophecy is expressed in natural language. In fact,
the whole plot of Harry Potter turns on Voldemort trying to prevent a prophecy from coming true - but the prophecy was ambiguous, and his choices drove how the prophecy was fulfilled.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The problem with trying to avoid a prophecy is that each and every word has to be defined unambiguously.

For example, I've heard people who grew up in a religious tradition, left it, and then returned, refer to that return as "coming home".

Heck, to many devoted priests, the church is their home. For all Hurak could know, "returning home" literally could have meant the temple itself, and he risked triggering the prophecy just by getting Durkon into his presence. The bottom line is that you can't stop a prophecy from happening. The best you can do is to prepare for its consequences the best you can.

GW

[georgie_leech]

I've been predicting this book will be titled To Hel With Good Intentions or some such.


If we stick to the plays on classic book titles with D&D related puns, I'm holding out hope for "Pair o' Dice Lost" myself:smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

The bottom line is that you can't stop a prophecy from happening. The best you can do is to prepare for its consequences the best you can.

That's not the issue here though. The issue is that Hurak has no idea how the prophecy plays out or what it means. He could have done literally anything else, and the prophecy would have been averted, because the foreseen scenario wouldn't have come to pass. He happened to choose the one way of dealing with it that still allowed it to come to pass, but had he, say, put Durkon under house arrest, it would have been fine. But Hurak doesn't know that. He doesn't know how Durkon will bring death and destruction, who "to us all" includes, why it would be Durkon or anything else.

[factotum]

-If he brings Death and Destruction (magic domains) "to us all", he can just walk into a public place and get dusted on sight and it would still fit the prophecy, since he would have indeed brought Death and Destruction magic with him to the dwarven population.


I think that interpretation is taking us over the edge of "clever wordplay" and into "sophistry", to be honest. If I say "I'm bringing cake to us all!" to a group of people, then just walk through the room with a cake that they're not allowed to touch and claim that fulfils my promise, I think they'd be justified in thinking they'd been hard done by.


But really, I think he's already done enough to justify the prophecy, and will kill more dwarves before he's stopped.


I don't think just killing a few dwarves fulfils the "destruction" part of the prophecy, especially since death is right there in the prophecy as well. Also, there's that pesky "to us all" clause again--no death or destruction has been visited upon clerics of Odin, for instance, yet they were the ones who issued the prophecy in the first place!

[Manty5]

I don't see what the big hoopla is about. We knew she was alive back when the High Priest of Thor's letter mentioned the passing of his grandfather but not his mother.

The big hoopla is that the author of this comic called attention to it right in the middle of the arc where he's home. Because he did so, it would be one heck of a Checkov's grandma if she weren't involved and probably pivotal to the upcoming confrontation.


That's not the issue here though. The issue is that Hurak has no idea how the prophecy plays out or what it means. He could have done literally anything else, and the prophecy would have been averted, because the foreseen scenario wouldn't have come to pass.

But if it didn't come to pass, then it wouldn't have been a prophecy.

That's the problem with the circular reasoning that a prophecy is: It goes both ways. Which is SO hot.

[Keltest]

But if it didn't come to pass, then it wouldn't have been a prophecy.

And? Is that... bad?

[Manty5]

*Puts on Jedi robes*

Prophecy, or do not. There is no lie.

Edit: And just a thought: "Death and destruction", not "damnation" was what Durkula was prophesized to bring to the dwarves. Hence, him effortlessly succeeding to sway the vote wouldn't technically fulfill the prophecy, as his role would have been to make sure that the death and destruction brought forth by the gods(not him) swelled Hel's realm. In fact, having a majority of the population die fighting a vampire would both fulfill the prophecy AND thwart Hel in a Eugene-like way. She might even force the vote the other way, once enough dwarves are out of her clutches to give her any kind of power in the new world.

Problem is, I don't think even a Durkula is capable of the magnitude of D&D necessary to save the day.

[Sapphire Guard]

Hurak sent Durkon away to prevent the prophecy from coming to pass, so why should Durkon believe he was a walking time bomb because Hurak explained that? Wouldn't he just Lawfully defer to the knowledge of his superior and dutifully go out believing he was making a sacrifice for the good of all?

Maybe, but he'd always have the knowledge hanging over him that if something went wrong he could be the trigger for destroying everything he held dear, and that would be constantly gnawing at him.

[Shining Wrath]

That's not the issue here though. The issue is that Hurak has no idea how the prophecy plays out or what it means. He could have done literally anything else, and the prophecy would have been averted, because the foreseen scenario wouldn't have come to pass. He happened to choose the one way of dealing with it that still allowed it to come to pass, but had he, say, put Durkon under house arrest, it would have been fine. But Hurak doesn't know that. He doesn't know how Durkon will bring death and destruction, who "to us all" includes, why it would be Durkon or anything else.

As I posted above, the word "home" admits of many interpretations in English vernacular, such as "returning to your faith" or "dying". We don't know for certain that the same vernacular applies in OotSverse, but it's the fewest-assumptions guess; they speak English, and it's the same English we speak.

Therefore, I strongly suspect that any possible series of actions or inactions by Hudak would have resulted in Durkon bringing Death and Destruction to the dwarves.

Anyone care to demonstrate a story written before 1800 or thereabouts where a prophecy was defeated or avoided?

[Peelee]

My apologies for the lack of a distinction. Let me try that again.

-If he brings Death and Destruction (magic domains) "to us all", he can just walk into a public place and get dusted on sight and it would still fit the prophecy, since he would have indeed brought Death and Destruction magic with him to the dwarven population.

-If he brings death and destruction (actual, physical devastation) "to us all", he causes a genocide, extinction event, or some event closely related, according to the prophecy.

Aha. I think I just misread it; your original post is much clearer now.

I still wish to rebut, though. Being in a public place still isn't really bringing the domains to them all. At least, not in the same way that genocide would.

[Ironsmith]

Aha. I think I just misread it; your original post is much clearer now.

I still wish to rebut, though. Being in a public place still isn't really bringing the domains to them all. At least, not in the same way that genocide would.

That's exactly the kind of point I was trying to make. There's a very wide gulf between "bringing magic of a certain domain in tow" and "bringing literal death and destruction". It's not really just semantics as you said...



Assume that his domains are indeed Death and Destruction. He's still bringing actual death and destruction. Making a distinction here is meaningless semantics.

...and if the prophecy is meant to be interpreted that way, the consequences don't necessarily have to be as severe as genocide would be.

[Peelee]

That's exactly the kind of point I was trying to make. There's a very wide gulf between "bringing magic of a certain domain in tow" and "bringing literal death and destruction". It's not really just semantics as you said...

Only if you take "to us all" to mean "to literally everybody, or nearly everybody" for one case, and "to an arbitrary number of people, irrespective of the totality" for another.

[Shining Wrath]

Only if you take "to us all" to mean "to literally everybody, or nearly everybody" for one case, and "to an arbitrary number of people, irrespective of the totality" for another.

Death and destruction sufficient that every dwarf was affected would meet one interpretation of those words.

Every dwarf being, even briefly, under the rule of a cleric with the Death and Destruction domains might also work.

The ambiguity of natural language will plague us even after the stake pierces Durkula's heart.

[sidhe3141]

Eh, prophecies. Everyone knows that all they're good for is an extra club to beat yourself up with after the fact. (http://diggercomic.com/blog/2007/08/03/digger-166/)

[Ruck]

Have anyone thought that "Death and Destruction" may refer to Vampire Durkon domains?


This was suggested a while back. But in light of what we now know, it is of course considered absurd. Why do you ask?


It's been mentionned a few strips ago, yeah.

The "bring D&D to us all" sounds a little more ominous than simple clever wordplay about the D&D rules, though

I don't think it's necessarily absurd. I mean, I'm operating under the Doylist assumption that Dwarven society will not actually be destroyed. But I do think Durkon brings "death and destruction for us all" in that the vampire and Hel's plan are those things-- but they don't necessarily have to succeed for the prophecy to now have been fulfilled. (Reading Kish's post now, I agree that the prophecy has been fulfilled already.)

Also, the prophecy is "for us all," not "to us all." It may just be a semantic difference, but to me the latter much more heavily implies that they succeed in doing it.

[Nomen]

Home can mean your hometown, your current house, or your former house especially if that house is your childhood home.
At the end of the day home is the place you feel most comfortable returning too. :smallamused:
Never having Durken return home at the end of the day either means house arrest in a new house or never letting him get used to a place being the place he goes to store his stuff or to relax.
Kicking him out of the city makes sense because otherwise he would either go back to his moms house, go back where ever he makes his new home, start to consider the temple his home or something similar without meaning to eventually.
Often in Greek and Roman mythology you can't prevent a prophecy and if you try you will likely directly cause it.
People killed a relatively innocent village wholesale to prevent anyone from that village from trying to destroy the world. Guess why the last remaining member is trying to destroy the world.
Durken was kicked out to prevent him from bringing death and destruction. Now his exile is motivating an over the top embodyment of his worst self to bring death and destruction.
Oedipus would never have knowingly married his mother but his "father's" attempt to kill him meant he never knew who his birth parents were.
Its not just I did nothing or I tried to prevent it. Its I did nothing, I tried to prevent it but I failed, or I tried to prevent it but I caused it.
If you know you live in one of these worlds by all means you can try to prevent a prophecy but don't break your moral code to do so.

[Peelee]

Death and destruction sufficient that every dwarf was affected would meet one interpretation of those words.

Indeed, and that is what I believe. Could be wrong, but odds seem better than ever.

[Snails]

I am also in the camp that believes Durkon has adequately fulfilled the terms of the prophecy. "Bringing death and destruction" need only be the realistic threat that anyone and everyone will die, not that actual killing is successfully inflicted on all souls within the realm.

[Necris Omega]

Yeah, the "next time" in the prophecy is tricky. But prophecies are fun to mess with, so let's do it ^^

Durkon learns about the prophecy, and it is decided he must never leave the town. Since Durkon is, well, Durkon, he decides to go one step further, and never go back to his mom's home. From now on, he'll live in the temple of Thor.
Flash-Forward to the great orc invasion, 23 years later. Firmament being close to the surface, its upper tunnels (including the temple and Sigdi's house) are lost, but the heroic defenders (Including Durkon, because, well, no way Durkon wouldn't grab a weapon and defend his hometown.) manage to slow the enemy long enough to get the civilians through the tunnel to the inner city. They prepare to close the Gate, count heads, and realize that Sigdi is not among the refugees.
In a moment of panic, Durkon decides to jump back into the burning city to go home and get her, and as many of the people still surviving in this mess. His comrades, inspired by his bravery, try to hold the gate long enough for him, and any other survivor, to come back, but they wait for too long. They are overrun by the dragon that lead the orcish horde, leading to the destruction of the inner city and the slaughter of the whole population.

Outsmarting a prophecy is hard. Those are always nebulous enough to come and bite you in the ass later. :P

That's not him bringing death and destruction, that's just him inspiring it. Death and destruction were already present, he just facilitates it. But that's besides the point.

The point is, even if you can come up with some kooky, ridiculous, nonsense way for the prophecy to "technically" come true after the fact, despite trying to prevent it, the problem here isn't kooky and ridiculous - it's that you need neither kooky nor ridiculous for the actions taken against this prophecy to backfire. Exiling someone without any justification, thought, or consideration is a surefire way to turn them against you, and a lot of people who aren't Durkon would be prone to taking it personally. If someone is "fated" to bring death and destruction then why would you ever do anything liable to add "--with gusto!" to that list?

This very easily could have embittered Durkon and inspired all that death and destruction and it wouldn't be even remotely circuitous or hard to see happening. Exchange Durkon's persona with Belkar's what do you think happens? Regardless of whether or not the prophecy could have been prevented, taking actions that would, in many cases promote or even cause it to happen, can't be defended.

[Ruck]

That's not the issue here though. The issue is that Hurak has no idea how the prophecy plays out or what it means. He could have done literally anything else, and the prophecy would have been averted, because the foreseen scenario wouldn't have come to pass.
But something else would have. That's the way prophecies work in these stories: The people who know of the prophecy and try to avert it bring about its fulfillment through their actions. Whatever Hurak had done with this knowledge would have brought the prophecy to fulfillment. I think Hurak handled it poorly-- Durkon deserved to know the truth; indeed, letting enough people in on the truth might have allowed the dwarves to prepare adequately for the inevitability-- but I also think that the motivation to delay it as long as possible is at least understandable.

[Lordchoculla]

Well, the high priest of Odin didn't actually need to pass the prophecy along to Hurak, so I suppose he gets the blame for that...although, logically, Durkon was a priest in Hurak's temple, so Hurak is the most logical person to be given this information? I don't see much blame attaching to the HPoO here, to be honest.

Also from KISH:

"Originally Posted by Lordchoculla View Post
I must admit that I have not yet read all the posts here for #1096. However, a few thoughts.

First of all, why are people angry with Hurak? While he may be the one who exiled Durkon, he was not the reciepient of the prophecy. The 'priest of Odin' was. So the anger should be directed to this ... so far... unknown priest.
HUH?

Er...believe it or not, you do in fact need to explain the reasoning behind "exiling Durkon is not morally culpable, receiving a prophecy is," not merely assume it will be immediately obvious to everyone. "


Well, The important thing I am trying to ask here is NOT whom to blame. That, IMHO, is not really important storytelling-wise. Moch more important is why Odin initiated this sequence of events that apparently will lead to the D&D of the dwarven realms.

The story tells us that Hel is in the Gate Game with the purpose of destroying the World because she was tricked by Loki - if I remember correctly it was a bet with Odin.

We also know that Hel is working through agents because she cannot interfere herself. The same must apply to Odin's side.

So maybe, just maybe, Odin plays a trick with Hurak in order to send Durkon out into the world so as to initiate the sequence of events that has led to this point.

Or maybe it was Hel who worked through an imposter Odin Priest in order to do exactly the same.

This, I find (if I am right in my guess that there is more to the Odin priest than meets the eye), is more important for the storyline, than blaming Hurak, however despicably he treated Durkon.

If I am wrong, then my apologies. If I am right, then the words "I see worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

assumes even more importance.

[Snails]

We also know that Hel is working through agents because she cannot interfere herself. The same must apply to Odin's side.

So maybe, just maybe, Odin plays a trick with Hurak in order to send Durkon out into the world so as to initiate the sequence of events that has led to this point.

Or maybe it was Hel who worked through an imposter Odin Priest in order to do exactly the same.

This, I find (if I am right in my guess that there is more to the Odin priest than meets the eye), is more important for the storyline, than blaming Hurak, however despicably he treated Durkon.

It is extremely likely that no one really understands the precise nature and limitations of prophecies in the OotSverse, including the gods, including those individual gods that specifically are known to grant prophetic powers.

In fact, I have my doubts that The Giant himself knows these rules. I have no doubt he has sufficient technical skill to weave together mechanics that work well enough to emulate common genre conventions about prophecy. Rather this is the exactly the kind of thing he would not bother to lift a finger to actually do, because OotS is an exercise in storytelling that uses certain game genre conventions as tools that are often useful to help tell the tale, not the other way round.

Odin himself is known for prophecy and known for granting prophetic insights. There is no evidence to doubt the presented facts about the HPoO telling the HPoT about a prophecy, beyond the plain fact of "wow, prophecies can be kinda of weird to think about".

Note that we have every reason to believe that Odin himself gained zero useful information from this prophecy, in spite of being somehow divinely involved, that he probably could not even understand it. Otherwise Odin could have had his followers prepare for this turn of events and not be one of many surprised gods at the Godsmoot.

[Lordchoculla]

It is extremely likely that no one really understands the precise nature and limitations of prophecies in the OotSverse, including the gods, including those individual gods that specifically are known to grant prophetic powers.

In fact, I have my doubts that The Giant himself knows these rules. I have no doubt he has sufficient technical skill to weave together mechanics that work well enough to emulate common genre conventions about prophecy. Rather this is the exactly the kind of thing he would not bother to lift a finger to actually do, because OotS is an exercise in storytelling that uses certain game genre conventions as tools that are often useful to help tell the tale, not the other way round.

Odin himself is known for prophecy and known for granting prophetic insights. There is no evidence to doubt the presented facts about the HPoO telling the HPoT about a prophecy, beyond the plain fact of "wow, prophecies can be kinda of weird to think about".

Note that we have every reason to believe that Odin himself gained zero useful information from this prophecy, in spite of being somehow divinely involved, that he probably could not even understand it. Otherwise Odin could have had his followers prepare for this turn of events and not be one of many surprised gods at the Godsmoot.


Interesting and intelligent thoughts, thanks.

However, as we see throughout Zeus' many shenanigans on Earth, he mostly works through proxy as he cannot himself interfere. This is what I see Odin doing here as well.

This, incidentally, is precisely living up to your excellent observation: "OotS is an exercise in storytelling that uses certain game genre conventions as tools that are often useful to help tell the tale, not the other way round"

[Porthos]

Am I the only one having nasty flashbacks to the debates over "four words" and "right person"?

[B. Dandelion]

Well, The important thing I am trying to ask here is NOT whom to blame. That, IMHO, is not really important storytelling-wise. Moch more important is why Odin initiated this sequence of events that apparently will lead to the D&D of the dwarven realms.

The story tells us that Hel is in the Gate Game with the purpose of destroying the World because she was tricked by Loki - if I remember correctly it was a bet with Odin.

Not with Odin. With Thor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html).

[Kantaki]

Am I the only one having nasty flashbacks to the debates over "four words" and "right person"?

Well, it's a prophecy. People will quibble about the smallest details with those things unless even if they are clearly spelled out.

[beyonddisbelief]

Devil's advocate here, but what if the high priest deliberately not told Durkon BECAUSE Durkon would make the ultimate sacrifice had he knew the truth, in order to keep him alive?