So where the Hel is Hurak now?

[Mad Humanist]

In 1007 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) Durkon curses Hurak (and the church) to Hel. Hurak is now dead. Did he die an honourable death? Or did he die sipping warm beer, too cowardly to attack so much as a Christmas tree?

[Peelee]

There's no way to tell yet.

Huh, that was a quick thread.

[Unoriginal]

Given that the Brewmaster is looking up, he seems to think Hurak went to Thor's heavenly realm despite thinking that the priest wronged Durkon.

Now, as Peelee said, there is no way to know if it's true.

[Mad Humanist]

There's no way to tell.

Huh, that was a quick thread.

Well Firuk ought to know. They played cards every week. He may not have finished talking.

[Peelee]

Well Firuk ought to know. They played cards every week. He may not have finished talking.

Yeah, that's a good point. Fixed.

[Quebbster]

Alcohol related illnesses count as a heroic death, right? Maybe Firon is absolutely certain Hurak died honorably.
(also, are only the good afterlives located in the sky?)

[The MunchKING]

In 1007 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) Durkon curses Hurak (and the church) to Hel. Hurak is now dead. Did he die an honourable death? Or did he die sipping warm bear, too cowardly to attack so much as a Christmas tree?

Sipping a bear? Even for a Combat-class Dwarf that has to be a heck of a way to go...

I was going to say we were told how he died in the letter on 375 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html). But then I remembered that was Durkon's Uncle.

EDIT: Then when I looked it up to give the link, I saw it was in fact his grandfather. So shoddy memory all the way for me. :D

[Mad Humanist]

Sipping a bear? Even for a Combat-class Dwarf that has to be a heck of a way to go...

I'll fix that.


Maybe Firon is absolutely certain Hurak died honorably.
(also, are only the good afterlives located in the sky?)

I am sorry to admit that we know Thor lives in the sky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html). I really want to see Garmr using him as a chew toy. Perhaps a very worn chew toy, as Hel said he needs a new one.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Garmr would break his teeth on the greatness that is the magnificent, the splendid, the tree-wrecking Hurak. He drinks bears and eats dragons. His heart is stone, his livers are steel, and his beard is soaked in ale, rather than vomit.

We all know the truth: Hurak died in a fight with Sigdi Thundershield. It was too awesome to be drawn. The Snarl itself wept in terror. Most of the debris still hasn't landed.

[Mad Humanist]

Garmr would break his teeth on the greatness that is the magnificent, the splendid, the tree-wrecking Hurak. He drinks bears and eats dragons. His heart is stone, his livers are steel, and his beard is soaked in ale, rather than vomit.

We all know the truth: Hurak died in a fight with Sigdi Thundershield. It was too awesome to be drawn. The Snarl itself wept in terror. Most of the debris still hasn't landed.

You could just be right. I am really looking forward to the scene where Seargent Sigdi drives a stake through her son's heart. I suppose she'll hold him down with her feet, hold the stake in place with her teeth and push it down just with her bare hand.

[martianmister]

Hurak is my new favourite character. :smallamused:

[Mad Humanist]

Hurak is my new favourite character. :smallamused:

Any particular reason?

[Keltest]

Any particular reason?

Anybody who drinks bears gets to be a favorite.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Anybody who drinks bears gets to be a favorite.

Even of the bears? Damn.

GW

[Peelee]

Even of the bears? Damn.

GW

They would respect the difficulty better than others, I'd imagine.

[littlebum2002]

Alcohol related illnesses count as a heroic death, right? Maybe Firon is absolutely certain Hurak died honorably.
(also, are only the good afterlives located in the sky?)



I am sorry to admit that we know Thor lives in the sky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html). I really want to see Garmr using him as a chew toy. Perhaps a very worn chew toy, as Hel said he needs a new one.

Do we know that Thor is Good, though? Durkon is Lawful Good, which means Thor can be Lawful Good, Lawful neutral or Neutral Good.

[Keltest]

Do we know that Thor is Good, though? Durkon is Lawful Good, which means Thor can be Lawful Good, Lawful neutral or Neutral Good.

Thor is served by celestials of some kind, so it stands to reason he is Good aligned.

Also, the thought of Thor being the lawful, uncompromising standard for just about anything makes me a little nauseous.

[Elanasaurus]

I Googled and it says Thor is CG. Asgard is a CG/CN plane.

[2D8HP]

...the thought of Thor being the lawful, uncompromising standard for just about anything makes me a little nauseous.


Another use for Dwarven poison resistance!

[alwaysbebatman]

I Googled and it says Thor is CG. Asgard is a CG/CN plane.

Yeah, Thor is normally CG. Usually that would mean he would only have CG, NG, or CN clerics. I'm guessing that there is an exception in the Stick-verse, likely related to the bet with Hel.

[Peelee]

I Googled and it says Thor is CG. Asgard is a CG/CN plane.

In standard D&D, yes. In OotS, maybe not; Thor wouldn't be in the one-step rule for ol' LG Durkon. We don't know if the one-step rule isn't enforced, or if Thor is one of the three alignments that fit the rule.

Google can't help you now.

Well, at least I got ninja'd by an actual ninja.

[Mad Humanist]

I Googled and it says Thor is CG. Asgard is a CG/CN plane.

I thought we had seen the LG Northern Pantheon afterlife. It's where Roy went. I am not sure if Asgard as such plays a role.

[martianmister]

Any particular reason?

Pity love.

[Gift Jeraff]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html
OOTS Thor is in Valhalla (CG afterlife), not Asgard. Durkon goes into a bit more detail about it in BRITF's preface. Presumably the line about returning to Asgard in #73 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html) has been retconned.

[Crusher]

Thor is served by celestials of some kind, so it stands to reason he is Good aligned.

Also, the thought of Thor being the lawful, uncompromising standard for just about anything makes me a little nauseous.

I can see him being the strict standard-setter for alcoholism, violent weather appreciation and drunken bar fights.

Edit - If you throw in "pawing drunkenly at goddesses", that covers pretty much everything we've ever seen him do.

[h0m3st4r]

I would've thought that he was killed by Vampire!Durkon and his minions at the gate...or was that somebody else?

[Riftwolf]

I could imagine Thor being NG easily enough. The dwarven temples probably skew hard to the LG side of things because that's how Dwarves are, and how they stay out of Hels grasp. It's an interesting idea that when the Gods travelled to Ootsverse, they chose their alignments just as PCs do, rather than having their alignment foregone conclusions like outsiders.

[wumpus]

I Googled and it says Thor is CG. Asgard is a CG/CN plane.

Rich might think him less chaotic, or simply be allowed all dwarves. Of course, AD&D has Odin at CG, and I'd put him at CN, and probably have him reside on Pandamonium if he wasn't grouped together with the rest of the Norse. Odin was the "betrayer of warriors", never Thor.


Alcohol related illnesses count as a heroic death, right? Maybe Firon is absolutely certain Hurak died honorably.
(also, are only the good afterlives located in the sky?)

Norse Hel is a cold place, and in a mountain range you know the really cold parts are up.

[Gift Jeraff]

I would've thought that he was killed by Vampire!Durkon and his minions at the gate...or was that somebody else?

He died years ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) If he was alive he would've been present at the Godsmoot.

[Mad Humanist]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html
OOTS Thor is in Valhalla (CG afterlife), not Asgard. Durkon goes into a bit more detail about it in BRITF's preface. Presumably the line about returning to Asgard in #73 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html) has been retconned.

That strip also mentions the River Styx, though I suppose that could simply have been a turn of phrase. In fact that's interesting. River Styx is from Greek mythology which was destroyed by the Snarl. How would Durkon even know about it?


Norse Hel is a cold place, and in a mountain range you know the really cold parts are up.

In the pictures we have seen, Hel is in Caves. I suppose they could be in caves in mountains above the sky. But still they could also be below the ground and that would be more traditional.

[Gift Jeraff]

The River Styx is part of standard D&D cosmology. Similarly, the names Hades and Tarterus are known in the second world because they are the names of the NE and NE/CE Outer Planes:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0356.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0868.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html

Also, I think I made a mistake earlier. Valhalla and Asgard are both part of the CG/CN afterlife.

[Quebbster]

In the pictures we have seen, Hel is in Caves. I suppose they could be in caves in mountains above the sky. But still they could also be below the ground and that would be more traditional.

The god's domains are on other planes though. Can they really be said to be "up" or "down" in relation to the prime material plane?

[Peelee]

The god's domains are on other planes though. Can they really be said to be "up" or "down" in relation to the prime material plane?
Yes.Wheeee!

[Quebbster]

Yes.Wheeee!

...I guess that's settled then.

[Ironsmith]

So, getting back to the original subject, I'd like to posit a third theory that Hurak is in something of a similar situation to Eugene Greenhilt right now: as a cleric who didn't seem to fall out of Thor's favor and possibly still dying an honorable (possibly liver-failure-related) death, he made it to whatever afterlife Thor favors, but due to his actions, he's barred from actual entry (by means of second thoughts on Thor's part, or because he failed his celestial review, etc.) This is especially likely if the process by which someone is put into the position of High Priest requires an oath on par with a Blood Oath, which Hurak then broke by tossing one of his own out into the snow in the manner he did.

[Mad Humanist]

So, getting back to the original subject, I'd like to posit a third theory that Hurak is in something of a similar situation to Eugene Greenhilt right now: as a cleric who didn't seem to fall out of Thor's favor and possibly still dying an honorable (possibly liver-failure-related) death, he made it to whatever afterlife Thor favors, but due to his actions, he's barred from actual entry (by means of second thoughts on Thor's part, or because he failed his celestial review, etc.) This is especially likely if the process by which someone is put into the position of High Priest requires an oath on par with a Blood Oath, which Hurak then broke by tossing one of his own out into the snow in the manner he did.

I think I both like and dislike this theory. I like it because the in text evidence points to Hurak having died an honourable death. I dislike it because some horrible part of me really wants Hurak to be Garmr's discarded chew-toy. I'm getting the feeling I don't like Hurak very much.

[Kish]

I thought we had seen the LG Northern Pantheon afterlife. It's where Roy went. I am not sure if Asgard as such plays a role.
Not just Northern Pantheon; worshipers of the Twelve Gods were shown climbing there along with Roy.

[Mad Humanist]

I think we can definitely conclude the following:

Firuk believes Hurak died an honourable death. This is part of the injustice and stupidity of Hurak's actions:


An' ye couldnar e'en stick around to see wha ye wrought, could ye, Hurak?

Of course this does not actually prove Hurak's afterlife. But it is the strongest evidence we have. It would seem very Burlevian for there to be some plot twist. For example that Hel's comment that Garm needs a new chew toy is foreshadowing of a more just fate for Hurak. But that does not qualify as actual evidence from the text.

[Ironsmith]

I think I both like and dislike this theory. I like it because the in text evidence points to Hurak having died an honourable death. I dislike it because some horrible part of me really wants Hurak to be Garmr's discarded chew-toy. I'm getting the feeling I don't like Hurak very much.

I think it's worth noting that Hurak was the high priest of Thor, and likely didn't end up in that position without being an otherwise good-ish person. It seems sort of cruel on a cosmic level to have him thrown to Hel just for the transgression of getting scared when handed a doom prophecy, far-reaching though the consequences might be. As Eugene's established, being barred from the afterlife is already an unpleasant experience, and we know Eugene was something of a jerk but ultimately still judged to be bound for the LG afterlife if not for the Blood Oath... it wouldn't be surprising for Hurak to end up in a similar situation.

[2D8HP]

...I'm getting the feeling I don't like Hurak very much.


I'm kind of surprised how few in the Stickverse I really dislike.

The only one I really want to see get comeuppance is that boney bastard Xykon.

:xykon:

[ti'esar]

I think it's worth noting that Hurak was the high priest of Thor, and likely didn't end up in that position without being an otherwise good-ish person. It seems sort of cruel on a cosmic level to have him thrown to Hel just for the transgression of getting scared when handed a doom prophecy, far-reaching though the consequences might be. As Eugene's established, being barred from the afterlife is already an unpleasant experience, and we know Eugene was something of a jerk but ultimately still judged to be bound for the LG afterlife if not for the Blood Oath... it wouldn't be surprising for Hurak to end up in a similar situation.

Honestly, while we've admittedly seen very little of the latter, Eugene seems like a way worse person than Hurak.

[Mad Humanist]

Honestly, while we've admittedly seen very little of the latter, Eugene seems like a way worse person than Hurak.

Quite frankly Eugene seems like a fairly normal human being to me. Not perfect by any stretch, mediocre by most measures in fact but not evil. His wife seemed to express a similar judgement if I recall.

With Hurak it is not so much that he chose to exile Durkon. It is the utter callousness and thoughtlessness with which he did it. Moreover I am not convinced he even had the authority to do it. Such a matter should have been a question for the highest executive, intelligence, military and judicial authorities of the state.

[Peelee]

Moreover I am not convinced he even had the authority to do it. Such a matter should have been a question for the highest executive, intelligence, military and judicial authorities of the state.

I don't think that high priests in dwarven society are all that low on the totem pole, here.

[Quebbster]

I don't think that high priests in dwarven society are all that low on the totem pole, here.

The high priest of Thor is probably the dwarven equivalent of the Pope...

[alwaysbebatman]

Quite frankly Eugene seems like a fairly normal human being to me. Not perfect by any stretch, mediocre by most measures in fact but not evil.

This is a terrible indictment of the human race. Not a false one, but pathetic all the same.

[Mad Humanist]

I don't think that high priests in dwarven society are all that low on the totem pole, here.


The high priest of Thor is probably the dwarven equivalent of the Pope...

If Dwarven society is literally a theocracy then this would be fair. But the fact that the Dwarven parliament meets in a different city to the Most important temple of Thor would suggest it is not a theocracy.

[Peelee]

If Dwarven society is literally a theocracy then this would be fair. But the fact that the Dwarven parliament meets in a different city to the Most important temple of Thor would suggest it is not a theocracy.

You are correct. Durkon, however, is a cleric of Thor. The church of Thor, then, does have some authority over Durkon. We don't know how much, but it's reasonable to assume enough that he could exile Durkon, since he did without objection by others.

[martianmister]

Quite frankly Eugene seems like a fairly normal human being to me. Not perfect by any stretch, mediocre by most measures in fact but not evil. His wife seemed to express a similar judgement if I recall.

With Hurak it is not so much that he chose to exile Durkon. It is the utter callousness and thoughtlessness with which he did it. Moreover I am not convinced he even had the authority to do it. Such a matter should have been a question for the highest executive, intelligence, military and judicial authorities of the state.

If it's up to him, Eugene would pressure Durkon into commit suicide so the prophecy would never come.

[Mad Humanist]

I'm kind of surprised how few in the Stickverse I really dislike.

The only one I really want to see get comeuppance is that boney bastard Xykon.

:xykon:

I like all the OOTS characters at least as characters. But we really don't seem to know much about Hurak. From a textual point of view, Xykon has more flesh on his bones than Hurak does.


This is a terrible indictment of the human race. Not a false one, but pathetic all the same.

This is so ironic. When I talk to apologists, they always claim the human race is depraved and that humanists have a Mary Sue view of humanity.


You are correct. Durkon, however, is a cleric of Thor. The church of Thor, then, does have some authority over Durkon. We don't know how much, but it's reasonable to assume enough that he could exile Durkon, since he did without objection by others.

Imagine we were talking about the United States. The Head of the Southern Baptists kidnapped a church organist and dumped them over the border in Mexico. Surely in this case noone would say that the head of the Southern Baptists was well within his rights.

[Emanick]

Imagine we were talking about the United States. The Head of the Southern Baptists kidnapped a church organist and dumped them over the border in Mexico. Surely in this case noone would say that the head of the Southern Baptists was well within his rights.

I suspect the dwarves in OOTS may have a different relationship between church and state than the United States does.

[Mad Humanist]

I suspect the dwarves in OOTS may have a different relationship between church and state than the United States does.

I don't think I can answer that without breaking the rules of the forum even more than I have already. Also we don't know very much about the Dwarven state.

[goodpeople25]

Imagine we were talking about the United States. The Head of the Southern Baptists kidnapped a church organist and dumped them over the border in Mexico. Surely in this case noone would say that the head of the Southern Baptists was well within his rights.
While the implications may be pretty close I don't think the actual acts taken are at all equivalent with what happened. I'd say the booting out was being thrown out the backdoor of the church into empty land and then being told to go to Mexico and don't come back. (And some of the issues in our world are likely less so in the dwarves/Durkon's case, physicality, borders, self sufficiency away from civilization, ect.) Also the likely different relationship with the church on all fronts. (From the reach of the religion being quite less in your example to the exile's faith.)

I guess the point is that (afaik) the exile is and was intended to be self-imposed and maybe that's hard to translate to our world but I think that part would hold up to the dwarves.

[Manty5]

Thor can't be CG. He's a beer drinker and it's been firmly established that the official drink of CG is single-malt scotch.

[Peelee]

Imagine we were talking about the United States. The Head of the Southern Baptists kidnapped a church organist and dumped them over the border in Mexico. Surely in this case noone would say that the head of the Southern Baptists was well within his rights.

Ignoring the differences between the US and the Dwarven.... municipal organization? It's a much closer analogy to the Southern Baptists telling a church organist they need to go on a missionary trip to the middle of Australia and booting him out the Church compound (which they have in this scenario). And I think that no one would be able to say boo, at least legally.

[Ruck]

I don't think I can answer that without breaking the rules of the forum even more than I have already. Also we don't know very much about the Dwarven state.

That's true, so why not make the assumption that fits the story as told, instead of the one that doesn't?

[dps]

That's true, so why not make the assumption that fits the story as told, instead of the one that doesn't?

Yeah, I don't even think we have to make any particular assumption about Dwarven society and the relationship between church and state there.

We know that Durkon is extremely lawful. When the head of his faith had him thrown out to go on a mission and told him not to return, he didn't like it (in fact the throwing out part had to be done literally), but he didn't try to go back without permission, either. He followed orders and did his duty, even though he didn't understand why he was given that duty.

The high priest probably had authority to assign Durkon to go on a mission. Whether that authority extended to being legally able to force Durkon to go against his will and to keep him from returning if he tried, we don't know. For purposes of the story, it doesn't really matter, but the default would be to assume that he acted legally. If he didn't, then it doesn't need to be addressed unless/until it becomes plot-relevant.

[Snails]

I could imagine Thor being NG easily enough. The dwarven temples probably skew hard to the LG side of things because that's how Dwarves are, and how they stay out of Hels grasp.

I was thinking along similar lines, too. Thor himself might not be the most natural fit for an LG church, but his church is very Lawful as a practical consequence of that stupid bet Thor agreed to while drunk. It is not at all impossible for a NG to have a church that is very LG under D&D rules -- it is just not what would be our first guess.