Growing a new Elder Brain?

[atemu1234]

Is it possible to create an elder brain? If, say, one was a sufficiently motivated group of illithids?

Because if not, I'll homebrew one but I'd like to see what first party stuff has to say first.

[Nifft]

You read the section on Elder Brains in Lords of Madness right?

I think that gives the most authoritative info for 3.5e "first party".

[Psyren]

You read the section on Elder Brains in Lords of Madness right?

I think that gives the most authoritative info for 3.5e "first party".

Have you? LoM describes how one that's already there can persist, but no ways to create/birth a new one.

"How an elder brain comes to be is unknown. Even to the mind flayers, an elder brain is timeless and ageless. It is an amorphous, writhing bulk of tissue, the conglomeration of cast-off brain matter from deceased mind flayers. When a mind flayer dies, its brain is removed ceremonially and cast into the pool, whereupon it sinks to the bottom to be absorbed into the greater mass."

Given their smarts though, they probably have contingencies in place like Astral Seed. (Note that the sample Elder Brain in LoM does have Mind Seed, so presumably they can "reproduce" that way too.) The result would be humanoid, but you could get a powerful BBEG that way - one that would likely know whatever plot secrets would enable it to make a new EB body.

[daremetoidareyo]

That description leads me to believe that than Elder brain is a conglomerate organism derived from mindflayer brains themselves. Theoretically the best way to test this hypothesis is to make a giant vat and fill it with gross brine. Then send a Bard with illithid bloodline, kid Mastery, extra turning, and Empower turning feats. Command the Mind flayers into positions where you can kill them and Harvest their brains and toss them in the vat. We are going to assume to achieve a critical mass where in decaying mind flayer brain matter and fresh brains result in the Elder brain creature. So we are going to need a minimum mindflayer death toll of say a hundred Illithid. If it doesn't work we know the theory is ineffective.

If you pimp out your craft Alchemy skill you might be able to figure out what the brine consists of if you can get a sample, which might not be that difficult seeing as how you can command illithids to do what you want

[Nifft]

Have you? That's obnoxiously confrontational of you.


LoM describes how one that's already there can persist, but no ways to create/birth a new one.

"How an elder brain comes to be is unknown. Even to the mind flayers, an elder brain is timeless and ageless. It is an amorphous, writhing bulk of tissue, the conglomeration of cast-off brain matter from deceased mind flayers. When a mind flayer dies, its brain is removed ceremonially and cast into the pool, whereupon it sinks to the bottom to be absorbed into the greater mass."

Did you read the OP's post? He asks if a sufficiently motivated group of Mind Flayers could create an Elder Brain.

The text that I recommended does answer this question conclusively: nope.

In your quest for obnoxious confrontation, I guess you missed that?

[Psyren]

That's obnoxiously confrontational of you.



Did you read the OP's post? He asks if a sufficiently motivated group of Mind Flayers could create an Elder Brain.

The text that I recommended does answer this question conclusively: nope.

In your quest for obnoxious confrontation, I guess you missed that?

No need to be defensive, it was a genuine question. You asked if he'd read it, but the truth is that LoM is completely inconclusive on that topic, so referring to it isn't actually much help.

[Nifft]

No need to be defensive, it was a genuine question. You asked if he'd read it, but the truth is that LoM is completely inconclusive on that topic, so referring to it isn't actually much help.

There was need for you to have been rude, but there was need to tell you to stop being rude. Sorry if that makes you feel defensive, but the easy way to avoid that is for you to not be obnoxiously confrontational going forward. I genuinely wish you well in that.


Secondly, you're wrong: Lords of Madness is emphatically conclusive.

=> There's no known way to create an Elder Brain. The OP must homebrew.

=> Whatever the homebrew way is, it either does not involve Mind Flayers, since Mind Flayers don't know this process -- or it does, but all the Mind Flayers involved are consumed by the process, so they can't pass on their knowledge, except to the nascent Elder Brain.

There's also some good stuff about how Mind Flayers (and Elder Brains) might have come back in time from the end of the universe to ensure the rise of their interplanar empire.

It's a good chapter with a lot of answers, a lot of inspiring questions, and some good flavor text.

OP should absolutely read it.

[Bohandas]

IIRC I'm pretty sure they're made similar to the same way they grow, by grafting together the brains of dying or recently dead illithids. The specifics I don't think are ever covered but presumably it would be more fiddly than adding to an existing one (as they apparently have an in-built ability to absorb new brains) and presumably would require the graft flesh feat)

[Psyren]

There was need for you to have been rude, but there was need to tell you to stop being rude. Sorry if that makes you feel defensive, but the easy way to avoid that is for you to not be obnoxiously confrontational going forward. I genuinely wish you well in that.

Lol! Sure thing pal.



Secondly, you're wrong: Lords of Madness is emphatically conclusive.

It states that the method is "unknown" - not that there is no method. The Elder Brains themselves likely know how to propagate, as I suggested. You can (and have) labeled that "homebrew" but I view it more like creating an artifact - a product of plot rather than mechanics, even homebrewed ones.

[Bohandas]

IIRC I'm pretty sure they're made similar to the same way they grow, by grafting together the brains of dying or recently dead illithids. The specifics I don't think are ever covered but presumably it would be more fiddly than adding to an existing one (as they apparently have an in-built ability to absorb new brains) and presumably would require the graft flesh feat)

Found it. Illithiad pg.75. Elder Brains are initially constructed out of the brains of the first two generations of each illithid colony (it takes 2 generations to accumulate enough brains). (though it does not specify whether these brains are somehow preserved until they have enough or if there is instead some kind of mass sacrifice)

Granted that's a 2e supplement, but if I recall corectly one of the 3e Forgotten Realms supplements (Lost Empires, I think) also mentioned the process being successfully reverse-engineered by the Netherese arcanist Ioulaum

[ExLibrisMortis]

Granted that's a 2e supplement, but if I recall corectly one of the 3e Forgotten Realms supplements (Lost Empires, I think) also mentioned the process being successfully reverse-engineered by the Netherese arcanist Ioulaum
You are completely right. Ioulaum survives as elder brain lich wizard 31/archmage 5/Netherese arcanist 5, which has to be one of the most impressive lines to ever open a stat block (not that there is one, but in general). He made an undead elder brain from alhoon (illithid lich) "minds", according to the text, which I'm guessing might involve brains, also. The alhoon were destroyed by the ritual.

Trouble is, Ioulaum was both an epic spellcaster and a caster of level 10+ spells, which makes it somewhat likely that even a group of mind flayers can't emulate him.

[Buufreak]

If nothing comes up conclusive, could the process be emulated by the use of illithid savant shenanigans?

[Bohandas]

You are completely right. Ioulaum survives as elder brain lich wizard 31/archmage 5/Netherese arcanist 5, which has to be one of the most impressive lines to ever open a stat block (not that there is one, but in general). He made an undead elder brain from alhoon (illithid lich) "minds", according to the text, which I'm guessing might involve brains, also. The alhoon were destroyed by the ritual.

Trouble is, Ioulaum was both an epic spellcaster and a caster of level 10+ spells, which makes it somewhat likely that even a group of mind flayers can't emulate him.

Didn't he pad it out with human brains too. It might work better using illithids for all the brains. And it probably also helps if the creator has psionic abilities

[Zanos]

Found it. Illithiad pg.75. Elder Brains are initially constructed out of the brains of the first two generations of each illithid colony (it takes 2 generations to accumulate enough brains). (though it does not specify whether these brains are somehow preserved until they have enough or if there is instead some kind of mass sacrifice)

Granted that's a 2e supplement, but if I recall corectly one of the 3e Forgotten Realms supplements (Lost Empires, I think) also mentioned the process being successfully reverse-engineered by the Netherese arcanist Ioulaum
Not sure that jives with 3e lore, where Elder Brains are more like unknowable gods to the illithids.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Didn't he pad it out with human brains too. It might work better using illithids for all the brains. And it probably also helps if the creator has psionic abilities
Not that I can see. He did have human apprentices at the time, but the text mentions only illithid apprentices being used for the elder brain.

[Bohandas]

Have you? LoM describes how one that's already there can persist, but no ways to create/birth a new one.

"How an elder brain comes to be is unknown. Even to the mind flayers, an elder brain is timeless and ageless. It is an amorphous, writhing bulk of tissue, the conglomeration of cast-off brain matter from deceased mind flayers."


I think you've parsed your reading of that slightly wrong, you copied it correctly but may be reading it wrong. You must keep in mind that the period comes before the comma, thus:

""How an elder brain comes to be is unknown.
Even to the mind flayers, an elder brain is timeless and ageless."

And NOT

""How an elder brain comes to be is unknown, even to the mind flayers.
An elder brain is timeless and ageless."

And it states rather clearly in the next sentence that it's made from cobbled-together mindflayer brains

[Zanos]

And it states rather clearly in the next sentence that it's made from cobbled-together mindflayer brains
That's what it is, but that's not how it's created. You can't just mash together a bunch of dead mindflayer noggins in some saltwater and get an Elder Brain.

[daremetoidareyo]

That's what it is, but that's not how it's created. You can't just mash together a bunch of dead mindflayer noggins in some saltwater and get an Elder Brain.

That's why you use science! Craft alchemy to determine the brine, and then start illithid hunting. Legend lore the specifics. It will be costly, but we can do this!

[Nifft]

Hmm, let's see, who created an Elder Brain in first-party material... it looks like THOON did.

So, you could always just go to the Far Realms and ask THOON how.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hmm, let's see, who created an Elder Brain in first-party material... it looks like THOON did.

So, you could always just go to the Far Realms and ask THOON how.

This is exactly what contact other plane the Spells are made for

[Thurbane]

I'm sure an Epic Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm) made for the purpose could do it, or maybe a high level custom Icantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) cast by a bunch of Mind Flayers?

[Zanos]

I'm sure an Epic Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm) made for the purpose could do it, or maybe a high level custom Icantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) cast by a bunch of Mind Flayers?
Creating a new creature is within the capabilities of an epic spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm)

Couple issues I'm noticing now though:
Casters take epic spell backlash damage every round of the spells duration, so caster of this spell takes 50d6 unmitigated damage every round forever unless the spell ends.
There's a lot of mitigation in there. An Elder Brain is going to be an expensive undertaking considering the very substantiation costs of the Archaeis mediocre abilities.

[Thurbane]

I'm not overly familiar with epic spells, but what if the caster has regeneration: would it convert the damage to nonlethal? If so, use some shenanigans (Crimson Scourge 8 etc.) to be immune to the nonlethal damage?

As I said, epic isn't my area of expertise, not sure if backlash damage overcomes regeneration...

[edit] OK, probably wont work...


The caster cannot somehow avoid or make him or her self immune to backlash damage.

...although, if you have regeneration, you're still taking (nonlethal) damage, so maybe (if you drop the immunity to nonlethal damage)?

[Fouredged Sword]

It makes perfect sense to me. Get a bunch of mind flayers together, cast huge epic spell ritual, suddenly die as the epic spell backlash deals fists full of d6's in damage. The spell continues and the Elder Brain continues. All the illithids who cast the spell are sacrifices to the survival of the race.

It's a weird self parasidic relationship. Mindflayers are made from and eat humanoids and tadpoles. The elder brain is made from and eats mindflayers and produces tadpoles.

[atemu1234]

Found it. Illithiad pg.75. Elder Brains are initially constructed out of the brains of the first two generations of each illithid colony (it takes 2 generations to accumulate enough brains). (though it does not specify whether these brains are somehow preserved until they have enough or if there is instead some kind of mass sacrifice)

Granted that's a 2e supplement, but if I recall corectly one of the 3e Forgotten Realms supplements (Lost Empires, I think) also mentioned the process being successfully reverse-engineered by the Netherese arcanist Ioulaum

Yes! This is the kind of thing I was looking for. For the record, I have read LoM. Cover to cover, actually. It's one of my favorite books.

I was hoping there was information elsewhere, or from an earlier (or, possibly even later) edition.

In truth, I didn't even realize the Illithiad existed. It'll probably be another of my favorites, given time.

[Bohandas]

Yes! This is the kind of thing I was looking for. For the record, I have read LoM. Cover to cover, actually. It's one of my favorite books.

I was hoping there was information elsewhere, or from an earlier (or, possibly even later) edition.

In truth, I didn't even realize the Illithiad existed. It'll probably be another of my favorites, given time.

They also had a beholder sourcebook entitled I, Tyrant.

(I think there were also one or two more in that series but I'm not sure)

[Buufreak]

The elder brain is made from and eats mindflayers and produces tadpoles.

You were right on most all counts, apart from this. Once in a lifetime, a mindflayer barfs up tadpoles by the crap ton, and they have to survive for 10 years before they can be implanted. The only thing that naturally feeds off the tadpoles is the elder brain, not the flayers.

[Bronk]

In 3.0/3.5, epic magic can create new forms of life, and you can get a new elder brain just by casting Wish, using the rules in Savage Species.

Elder Brains could have another way of procreating, but considering how tightly they keep their illithid communities on a leash - lying about incorporating their minds into their own upon death, keeping them linked to psionics and ostracizing those that become arcane or divine casters, and keeping them all within range of their own psionic control - and considering that their biology doesn't make all that much sense...

My take on it is that the first elder brain could have been made using epic magic, and the rest could be made from rogue arcane illithids changing themselves with the wish spell. Once they've become an Elder Brain themselves, it would make sense for them to keep up the farce, and keep their own herd of tasty illithids in check by brainwashing them the same way they all are, so that none of them ever even think of divining their secrets and heading off to learn enough magic to become a rival.

[BWR]

They also had a beholder sourcebook entitled I, Tyrant.

(I think there were also one or two more in that series but I'm not sure)

"Sea devils" for the sahuagin.

[Bohandas]

Not sure that jives with 3e lore, where Elder Brains are more like unknowable gods to the illithids.

3e lore explicitly says that Ioulaum made one

[DarkSoul]

"Sea devils" for the sahuagin.Along with an adventure trilogy for each book. The one for the illithids involves a plot to put out the sun. If I remember the specifics correctly, they've already started doing so when the adventures begin.