Favorite OOTS Character Tournament: #8 HALEY v #1 VAARSUVIUS

[alwaysbebatman]

THE CRACK PAIRING!

VOTING IS NOW CLOSED

http://i.imgur.com/994LK4L.png

(Smuggling slaves is not a euphemism for ANYTHING! REALLY!)

Winner takes on Belkar or Roy next round. Go!

[Laurana]

This is tough even though I easily know who to vote for.
Haley Starshine.

[Fincher]

Haley. I'm hoping for some upsets in the quarterfinals, because I want the lower seeded one to win in all four.

[Drakilian]

Vaarsuvius, who else?

[Euclidodese]

Vaarsuvius is a lot like Mewtwo: Doesn't have a gender, is purple, can explode things with their mind, reeks of awesomeness.

[Arkku]

This is the most difficult choice for me so far, but based on the soul splice storyline I vote Vaarsuvius.

[Hamste]

I vote V as well.

[Zaclock]

V for Vote, V for Victory. Sorry Haley.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I vote for Vaarsuvius.

[Rogan]

V

Disintegrate! Gust of Wind! Can we please continue this tournament?

[L8r]

Haley, I don't like V.

[Dr.Zero]

Vaarsuvius.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tough one, as there is much to like and to dislike about both.

I'll pick V, because V's character growth arc was far better. Also due to V's more deadpan style of humor.
It's a touch call, given how many rogues and thieves I've played over the years.

Vaarsuvius!

[littlebum2002]

I love Haley, but V's humor is just so on point.

:vaarsuvius: Not if my index finger has anything to say about it. And, as it turned out, it had quite the stirring dissertation prepared on that very subject.

[martianmister]

Sorry Haley, but my choice is VAARSUVIUS, V should face Roy and take sweet revenge on him.

[Potatomade]

V. This was even easier than Tsukiko vs Redcloak. I actively dislike Haley. I wasn't fond of any of the storylines where she was front and center. V has better storylines and is funnier, so gets my vote easily.

[Chei]

There's no wrong answer. I pick V.

[drazen]

I vote Vaarsuvius.

Both can be irritating, but I usually find the way V is irritating to be the funnier one, by a country mile. Also, V seems to learn and grow a bit more. Haley's not bad, but she just isn't built for this fight.

[2D8HP]

:haley:

vs.

:vaarsuvius:

?

The Chaotic redhead has my heart, and has given me much laughter, but V's loss of Inkyrius and their kids got my eyes misty, so

I nod for:

Vaarsuvius.

[Joerg]

Vaarsuvius.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Haley is my favorite member of the OotS, up against possibly the member I dislike the most (tough call between V and Elan).
So of course she's getting blown out. :smallannoyed:

[zimmerwald1915]

Haley, on every ballot prior and since.

[Bob_McSurly]

'I...I must succeed. '

Vs.


To quote Belkar, 'The redhead can't lead anyone out of a wet paper bag'.


My vote goes to
Vaarsuvias

[Torzini]

Most definitely Vaarsuvius. Without any question.

[The Curt Jester]

Vaarsuvius gets my vote. Haley is my least favorite main character.

[Potatomade]

I like how the Roy v. Belkar thread is tied, but this one is a vicious stomping (so far). I guess the Haley voters are all in hiding until they can SNEAK ATTACK!

[Ruck]

V is the #1 seed, right?

[alwaysbebatman]

V is the #1 seed, right?

I'm all "Yes, why do you ask?... Oh, wait, I see why..."

Fixed. Thank you.

[martianmister]

I like how the Roy v. Belkar thread is tied, but this one is a vicious stomping (so far). I guess the Haley voters are all in hiding until they can SNEAK ATTACK!

It's surprising, indeed.

[alwaysbebatman]

I don't see why it would be surprising that 4 seed vs 5 seed is very close, while #1 seed vs 8 is not.

Vaarsuvius is much more popular than Haley, this is well established at this point.

[robbie374]

Haley. But V is cool, too.

[Peelee]

I don't see why it would be surprising that 4 seed vs 5 seed is very close, while #1 seed vs 8 is not.

Vaarsuvius is much more popular than Haley, this is well established at this point.

It's almost like ranked choice voting gives a pretty good representation of what the majority of people favor. Weird, that.

[Potatomade]

Not to complain or anything, but that's always been kinda weird to me about these kinds of contests. For every one of these vs matches, there was already a clear winner in the original "list your 10 favorites, in order" thread. You can always hope for an upset, but by definition you'll mostly be disappointed.

EDIT: I don't wanna be a downer, though. This is fun, and it's giving us a chance to talk about why we like particular characters more than others.

[alwaysbebatman]

Well, the whole idea of seeding is that upsets shouldn't be common ... It wouldn't be much of an upset if it wasn't surprising... But I have been surprised how little drama has been in this thing so far.

Maybe that will change in the semifinals.

[Hamste]

Not to complain or anything, but that's always been kinda weird to me about these kinds of contests. For every one of these vs matches, there was already a clear winner in the original "list your 10 favorites, in order" thread. You can always hope for an upset, but by definition you'll mostly be disappointed.

Yeah, essentially you need enough folks like me who were pretty meh to most of the top votes or who gave low points to one contender but even lower points to the other for an upset to happen. For example, I gave 4 points to Daigo and 3 to Elan. If 20 people voted like that but 10 people put Elan at 10 points and Daigo at zero then Elan would be a top pick and Daigo not but Elan would lose in a straight vote off vs Daigo. In.practice this appears to not happen nearly enough in the top picks for there to be that much variation. At least there were some upsets in the wild card votes.

[Potatomade]

Or the formation of political parties. But nobody wants that.

"Elan Bloc will support the Haley Bloc to ensure that they are the last two standing!"

[Liquor Box]

I vote for Hayley Starshine

[Mandor]

I would not be sad at all if Haley were to win. Between her whole losing-speech arc, the feud with Sabine, reading Belkar the riot act after his Mark of Justice was activated (even if she can't remember doing that...), etc. Haley is just awesome.
And I still love the Potion of Bluff. "INTRUDERS!" "Nope" "FALSE ALARM!!!" Pure gold.

But Vaarsuvius continues to get my vote. Sure V went off the deep end, and V's not always 100% successful at doing better now, but I love V's sense of humor, I don't mind V's verbosity, and I love V's mix of just cutting to the chase with magic, and sometimes having a subtler, Cat-Lifting Hand. V is how I hope I would play a mage if I ever did a pen and paper game of D&D ever again.

[137beth]

My two favorite characters are up against each other:smalleek:
Ultimately though I've gotta go with Vaarsuvius.

[martianmister]

Vaarsuvius is much more popular than Haley, this is well established at this point.

I thought that the opposite is true. Haley is second-in-command of Roy and was one of three characters that gets most of focus and character development. I guess it's no longer the case.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I thought that the opposite is true. Haley is second-in-command of Roy and was one of three characters that gets most of focus and character development. I guess it's no longer the case.

That doesn't necessarily have much bearing on popularity. I doubt MitD or Wrecan, for example, were voted for due to the focus on them or their character development.

[alwaysbebatman]

I thought that the opposite is true. Haley is second-in-command of Roy and was one of three characters that gets most of focus and character development. I guess it's no longer the case.

The seedings are based on 60 top-10 character ballots. It is safe to say that a #1 seed is a lot more popular than a #8 seed, and if the one-on-one voting were even close, that would be a heck of an upset. (Which we are not seeing.)

[LadyEowyn]

I like both characters a lot, but I'm voting for Vaarsuvius. I love a good tragedy and a good redemption story, and V's is a mix of both.

I like Haley as a character, bit most of the plotlines that have focused on her have involved romance or her Greysky City past, which are not as compelling to me. Though she and Elan are a good couple.

[Sylian]

Vaarsuvius got the number 1 seed for a reason.

[zimmerwald1915]

good redemption story
There's no indication that V's story is one of redemption. We have the elements of that from Soon's mouth, and as V herself points out, she's missing a crucial one: there remains no one to whom she could make restitution. Even if there was, the remaining scope and duration of the comic is so limited, and it's direction so set, that it's doubtful she'd have the opportunity.

For the remainder of this story, her role, such as it is, is to stick in the background and do no further harm.

[Peelee]

There's no indication that V's story is one of redemption. We have the elements of that from Son's mouth, and as V herself points out, she's missing a crucial one: there remains no one to whom she could make restitution. Even if there was, the remaining scope and duration of the comic is so limited, and it's direction so set, that it's doubtful she'd have the opportunity.

For the remainder of this story, her role, such as it is, is to stick in the background and do no further harm.

That's assuming redemption requires restitution to an aggrieved party. In the event of this not being available, I feel no compunction against redemption still being on the table so long as there exists actual contrition (and willingness to make actual contrition, if possible). I understand that you dont feel that way.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's assuming redemption requires restitution to an aggrieved party. In the event of this not being available, I feel no compunction against redemption still being on the table so long as there exists actual contrition (and willingness to make actual contrition, if possible). I understand that you dont feel that way.
If all you want is actual contrition, you got that at the end of the last book and nothing more remains to be said. But we've been told there are more elements, and while the same character also said redemption is rare and special, not for everyone, I am not inclined to believe that the requirements are relaxed for PCs.

[Peelee]

If all you want is actual contrition, you got that at the end of the last book and nothing more remains to be said. But we've been told there are more elements, and while the same character also said redemption is rare and special, not for everyone, I am not inclined to believe that the requirements are relaxed for PCs.

Soon listed three things. V's hit two of them so far. The third is difficult, and I think will be worked towards though the end of the comic.

I have no reason to believe the requirements are any different fire PCs than NPCs, and i have no idea where that idea came from.

[Jasdoif]

....there remains no one to whom she could make restitution.Tiamat might disagree.

[alwaysbebatman]

Soon isn't talking about "redemption for NPCs," he is blatantly and specifically talking about redemption for a fallen paladin.

Now, Soon's words are, generally speaking, a pretty good idea for someone who has done something terribly wrong and wants to make it right. But it's not a damn recipe. If you cause harm to someone (and even more so if it's a LOT of someone's) it's usually not possible to make up for it. There is no sufficient apology for murder. At the same time, the answer isn't "well, I guess I'm a villain, now, oh well. Mwahaha, I guess."

If you can just balance your crimes with good deeds, is it okay to commit a bunch of terrible crimes now, if, say, you save the world first? Or after?

No. It's not about balance. It's about realizing you need to become a better person and trying to do that.

[KarlMarx]

Vaarsuvius is, to me, everything a D&D character should be: both fully and totally absorbed and enveloped by the fantasy setting, seamlessly practicing magic and parleying with demons, but still deeply tied to personal development and ethical ideas extremely relevant to the world of not-dice. Their story arc forced me to consider a lot of points about means vs. ends, responsibility to family vs. responsibility to civilization as a whole, personal responsibility, and redemption.

That's not to say that V is the best example of a character who does this in all literature ever, but V doing so in the context of D&D is everything I think the game should aspire to be.

[zimmerwald1915]

At the same time, the answer isn't "well, I guess I'm a villain, now, oh well. Mwahaha, I guess."
Isn't it? Self-awareness is a good quality to have.

Much better that the kind of delusion that says you can make up for your bad acts, your failures, and your disappointments. You can't. You can only flatline, or fall further.

[Ruck]

I'm shocked, shocked, that zimmerwald is once again taking an opportunity to grind their axe against Vaarsuvius.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm shocked, shocked, that zimmerwald is once again taking an opportunity to grind their axe against Vaarsuvius.
It has been a few years.

[Peelee]

Isn't it? Self-awareness is a good quality to have.

Much better that the kind of delusion that says you can make up for your bad acts, your failures, and your disappointments. You can't. You can only flatline, or fall further.

If one can only flatline or fall further, then once damned, why bother ever trying to be better? Why not just go all in, because you've already lost, remaining time to change be damned? Even when a literal embodiment of Good has explicitly told us that trying counts?

[alwaysbebatman]

Isn't it? Self-awareness is a good quality to have.

Much better that the kind of delusion that says you can make up for your bad acts, your failures, and your disappointments. You can't. You can only flatline, or fall further.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Do you mean to say that someone who forgives themselves too readily can be insufferable? That much is certainly true. (And NOT descriptive of Vaarsuvius, who seems willing to continue on despite the crushing guilt only because the stakes are too high to roll up in a ball and quit.)

You cannot "make up for your bad acts." Time's arrow moves only ever forward, and no matter how much good you do, it does not erase the evil you did. But "what you did" and "who you are" are not the same.

"Knowing" that you were a bad person yesterday and will therefore be a bad person tomorrow isn't "self awareness," it's an excuse to not try. It's Belkar's (oddly adorable) denial of his rapidly expanding capacity for empathy.

Real self awareness is knowing the character flaws that led to mistakes and bad acts, and making an effort to restrain and change ones bad impulses even though they know that can never truly make up for what they did in the past. That's Vaarsuvius.

[Ruck]

If one can only flatline or fall further, then once damned, why bother ever trying to be better? Why not just go all in, because you've already lost, remaining time to change be damned? Even when a literal embodiment of Good has explicitly told us that trying counts?

Yeah, I categorically reject the assertion that "one can only flatline or fall further" after one has done wrong.

[Porthos]

Isn't it? Self-awareness is a good quality to have.

Much better that the kind of delusion that says you can make up for your bad acts, your failures, and your disappointments. You can't. You can only flatline, or fall further.

Huh.

Some might argue that striving to make the world a better place, in large acts or small, is its own reward. 'Make up for' ain't got nothing to do with it.

===

As a side note: Haley. :smallsmile:

[aurilee]

This is really, really, really hard.

Haley and V are both great characters.

They've both had dramatic story arcs (although V's was a lot darker obviously) and they've both done some pretty cool stuff.

I like Haley's attitude and V's verbosity.

In the end though, I think I'll be voting for Vaarsuvius. Their recent development (ie, after the familicide melodrama) and in particular their interactions with Blackwing have made me like them even more.

Haley has been a little...flat lately. Not that there's anything wrong with that, the story simply isn't focused on her. But, it does mean that I have more +1s for V fresher in my mind.

I think also, V was one of the first characters (aside from Belkar) that really stood out to me in the early strips. Because of that, I'm probably a bit biased towards him.

[alwaysbebatman]

It is NOT too late. There are over 24 hours left in this poll.

I'll add a tally soon.

ETA: Okay, yes, it's too late. For Haley to win. But your vote can still go for the moral victory of "not losing to Vaarsuvius by more than the Wildcard did."

Maybe.

Or contrariwise, you can kick Haley while she's down.


16 vs 1 Nods
#1) http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.png Vaarsuvius 24
#8) :haley: Haley Starshine 8

[Dr.Zero]

16 vs 1 Nods
#1) http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.png Vaarsuvius 24
#8) :haley: Haley Starshine 8


Fascinating.
Elan vs Redcloak ended 22-24.
So there are out there at least 14 voters who have not voted here (yet).
And anyway who voted for Elan hasn't felt compelled to vote for Haley (yet).

[Potatomade]

Fascinating.
Elan vs Redcloak ended 22-24.
So there are out there at least 14 voters who have not voted here (yet).
And anyway who voted for Elan hasn't felt compelled to vote for Haley (yet).

Or voted V over her. Elan is awesome, Haley is just cool. She lacks the raw awesome factor of V.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yeah, my allegiance isn't to Elan-and-Haley as a couple. I totally voted both for Elan and for Vaarsuvius in every race they've been in.

But there is another aspect to your point that's more valid: a lot less people have voted in this one. Not enough to put Haley in striking distance, but...

If someone were to make a strong case, there are potential votes out there.

[zimmerwald1915]

If one can only flatline or fall further, then once damned, why bother ever trying to be better?
Don't. Live out the rest of your years as a hermit rather than touch more things and turn them to **** too.


Why not just go all in, because you've already lost, remaining time to change be damned?
Takes entirely too much effort.

[Potatomade]

So you think redemption is completely impossible?

[Sylian]

Don't. Live out the rest of your years as a hermit rather than touch more things and turn them to **** too.That's not how it works in D&D (and arguably not in real life either, but let's not go there). Redemption is a thing in D&D, even someone like Xykon could potentially be redeemed (in theory, though it is quite unlikely). Redcloak is, perhaps, a more likely candidate for redemption, and his actions might be worse than V's (and he is Evil while V is probably still Neutral).

Will V be able to fully compensate for what was done? Probably not, unless V can find a way to resurrect all victims (somewhat unlikely). V could do their best to set things right, or at least do as much as possible before dying. V hiding as a hermit? That would be a waste of V's magical potential to do Good.

[zimmerwald1915]

V hiding as a hermit? That would be a waste of V's magical potential to do Good.
Such potential does not exist. And even if it did, before one can do good one must first do no harm.

[Potatomade]

No, V could do good at any time, no matter what's happened before. It may not turn out a net positive, but that doesn't justify not helping the Order stop Xykon (and I'd argue that'd DEFINITELY make it a net positive).

[pearl jam]

I feel like zimmerwald is engaging in intentional self parody/caricature at this point. :P

[Peelee]

Such potential does not exist. And even if it did, before one can do good one must first do no harm.

So If any harm is done, no good can ever be done after. Gotcha.

[Sylian]

Such potential does not exist. And even if it did, before one can do good one must first do no harm.So by this logic, if a person worked as a robber or thief for a few years and later became a defender of justice, that person would be wrong to do so because they did harm first?

[zimmerwald1915]

So by this logic, if a person worked as a robber or thief for a few years and later became a defender of justice, that person would be wrong to do so because they did harm first?
Of course! All their later actions are tainted by their prior actions, become worse in themselves because of their doer.

[Peelee]

I feel like zimmerwald is engaging in intentional self parody/caricature at this point. :P
I dunno, I feel like...

Of course! All their later actions are tainted by their prior actions, become worse in themselves because of their doer.

...nevermind, pearl jam, I now fully agree with you.

[Present 2.0]

So O-Chul shoul be dead?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html

[zimmerwald1915]

So O-Chul shoul be dead?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html
O-Chul was never in danger. He hadn't provoked death by harmatia, and had a plot role to play yet.

[Sylian]

O-Chul was never in danger. He hadn't provoked death by harmatia, and had a plot role to play yet.O-Chul used to rob people. I suppose he,
too, should live as a hermit?

Oh, and let's not forget all the morally ambiguous actions Roy has done, such as abandoning Elan or lying to his employees in order to get them to work for him. He, too, should become a hermit?

What are you basing this on, anyway? Redemption is a major theme in many fantasy stories, including D&D.

[zimmerwald1915]

O-Chul used to rob people. I suppose he,
too, should live as a hermit?
Of course.


Oh, and let's not forget all the morally ambiguous actions Roy has done, such as abandoning Elan or lying to his employees in order to get them to work for him. He, too, should become a hermit?
Likewise.


What are you basing this on, anyway? Redemption is a major theme in many fantasy stories, including D&D.
The whole fantasy genre is backwards-looking and morally suspect.

[Ruck]

I feel like zimmerwald is engaging in intentional self parody/caricature at this point. :P

When your moral system is defined as "Anything that allows me to condemn Vaarsuvius as irredeemable," you're gonna come across as silly from time to time.

[Potatomade]

Ok, yeah, this is a joke, got to be.

[drazen]

There's no indication that V's story is one of redemption. We have the elements of that from Soon's mouth, and as V herself points out, she's missing a crucial one: there remains no one to whom she could make restitution. Even if there was, the remaining scope and duration of the comic is so limited, and it's direction so set, that it's doubtful she'd have the opportunity.

For the remainder of this story, her role, such as it is, is to stick in the background and do no further harm.


Not to do no further harm. To do the right thing, even though there's no possible way to make up for committing an atrocity. This type of character has been covered in sci-fi/fantasy before.

Specifically, I was thinking of the following exchange when having a discussion in the O-Chul vs. Redcloack contest. From Stargate: The Ark of Truth:




Teal'c: Nothing I have done since turning against the goa'uld will make up for the atrocities I once committed in their name. Somewhere deep inside you you knew it was wrong, a voice you did not recognize screamed for you to stop. You saw no way out, it was the way things were, they could not be changed. You're trying to convince yourself the people you're hurting deserved it. You became numb to their pain and suffering, you learned to shut out the voice speaking against it.

Tomin: There's always a choice.

Teal'c: Indeed there is.

Tomin: I chose to ignore it.

Teal'c: Yet you sit here now.

Tomin: I sit here, and I cannot imagine the day when I will forgive myself.

Teal'c: Because it will never come. One day others may try to convince you they have forgiven you, that is more about them than you. For them, imparting forgiveness is a blessing.

Tomin: How do you go on?

Teal'c: It is simple. You will never forgive yourself. Accept it. You hurt others, many others, that cannot be undone. You will never find personal retribution, but your life does not have to end. That which is right, just and true can still prevail. If you do not fight for what you believe in all may be lost for everyone else. But do not fight for yourself, fight for others, others that may be saved through your effort. That is the least you can do.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not to do no further harm. To do the right thing, even though there's no possible way to make up for committing an atrocity.
The right thing is surely to spare others your presence? To not impose yourself upon them?

[Present 2.0]

The whole fantasy genre is backwards-looking and morally suspect.

This might not be untrue, but it is definitely not as morally suspect as your weird moral system.

[Sylian]

The right thing is surely to spare others your presence? To not impose yourself upon them?That strikes me as fairly Neutral, not Good.

[zimmerwald1915]

That strikes me as fairly Neutral, not Good.
How is intruding on someone's personal space with your questions and your interest and your demands not antithetical to "respecting the dignity of sentient beings?" The best thing to do for another person is to leave them alone.

[aurilee]

How is intruding on someone's personal space with your questions and your interest and your demands not antithetical to "respecting the dignity of sentient beings?" The best thing to do for another person is to leave them alone.

Well okay sure, if that person doesn't want you there.

But the Order here are still V's friends. You're making it sound like no one should ever want to hang out with anyone else ever.

Sorry, I was following your logic (although not agreeing with it) until this point, but I'm unsure of how you made this leap from "once someone's done something bad they can never truly do good again" to "no one should ever be near anyone else".

Or do you mean that once you've done something bad, you shouldn't be around other people because you believe that by doing so, they're making those around them uncomfortable/some how hurting them?

Again, I don't agree with your argument here, but I am trying to understand it.

[zimmerwald1915]

You're making it sound like no one should ever want to hang out with anyone else ever.
That's the position, yes. Initiating human contact is tantamount to assault, because you can never know without initiating contact whether it will be welcome or not. The violation can only be forgiven after the fact.

[Sylian]

How is intruding on someone's personal space with your questions and your interest and your demands not antithetical to "respecting the dignity of sentient beings?" The best thing to do for another person is to leave them alone.Personal space does not have an intrinsic value (value in itself), only an instrumental value (value in the sense that it might lead to something good). Sometimes a person would be better off if their personal space were violated. Saving a temporarily depressed person from suicide would be an act of paternalism, but most moral philosophers and Good D&D characters would argue that it would be a justified act. Therefore, sometimes intruding on someone's personal space can be morally Good.


That's the position, yes. Initiating human contact is tantamount to assault, because you can never know without initiating contact whether it will be welcome or not. The violation can only be forgiven after the fact.That's not assault. You could argue that unwanted attention is bad, and that might be true, though it could also be good. If everyone were afraid to initiate contact with each other then society would collapse.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's not assault. You could argue that unwanted attention is bad, and that might be true, though it could also be good. If everyone were afraid to initiate contact with each other then society would collapse.
Eh, society is slowly collapsing anyways. Might as well get it over with.

As for "unwanted attention being good," that's entirely down to the person receiving the attention deciding to forgive the person giving it. Deciding to grant the grace of not feeling violated by what is objectively a violation. It is not determined by effects. And it certainly isn't determined by the intentions of the attention-giver.

[Aasimar]

I cast my vote for Haley

[aurilee]

That's the position, yes. Initiating human contact is tantamount to assault, because you can never know without initiating contact whether it will be welcome or not. The violation can only be forgiven after the fact.

Ok...so it can be forgiven? Even though using your logic, by initiating contact with someone an previously "good" person has done something "bad" so forgiveness is irrelevant because now they are irredeemable and should go live as hermit.

I don't think I'd like your world very much...

Or...do you mean it can be forgiven if you find out that they are otherwise someone who has never done anything terrible?

[Potatomade]

Can we go back to talking about OotS characters yet?

[littlebum2002]

That's the position, yes. Initiating human contact is tantamount to assault, because you can never know without initiating contact whether it will be welcome or not. The violation can only be forgiven after the fact.

Using this rule, though, no one would ever have a Good alignment because they would constantly be assaulting other people. Every Paladin would fall the second they talked to one person.

Claiming "No one can ever be good unless they never communicate with another person", even if correct, doesn't really contribute anything to the conversation. It's like going into an argument about whether the dress is white and gold or black and blue and saying "well, there is no such thing as color, it's an illusion caused by the physiology of our eyes". Even though it's true, it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

[zimmerwald1915]

Every Paladin would fall the second they talked to one person.
Gee, it's almost like Paladins are an impossible literary ideal!

[Peelee]

Using this rule, though, no one would ever have a Good alignment because they would constantly be assaulting other people. Every Paladin would fall the second they talked to one person.

You should stop assaulting Zimmerwald. Also, I apologize deeply for assaulting you just now.

[Ruck]

This might not be untrue, but it is definitely not as morally suspect as your weird moral system.

You're talking to someone who thought Belkar remembering to rescue Bloodfeast in the desert was an example of how morally empty Vaarsuvius was.

Any moral system built around "Everything this fictional character does is automatically evil and exemplifies evil behavior," then works backward to justify it, is bound to a be a little, as you say, weird.

[alwaysbebatman]

Okay, is anybody actually VOTING in here?

Nope, doesn't look like it. Okay, (unlike Belkar vs Roy, which I'm leaving open another hour, because it's still on a razor's edge,) I'm putting this out of its misery.

VOTING IS NOW CLOSED

Vaarsuvius wins, and will face either Belkar or Roy in the semifinals. That match begins in about an hour.