Villainous Competition XX​III: Two Heads Are Better Than One

[Inevitability]

Welcome to Round 23 of the Villainous Competition!

Previous Competitions
Round One: Leader of Armies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395046)
Round Two: Nature's Revenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400517)
Round Three: Double Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406015)
Round Four: Grave Keeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413480)
Round Five: Crime Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420704)
Round Six: Ultimate Predator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430650)
Round Seven: Wicked Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444478)
Round Eight: Master of the Tundra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461482)
Round Nine: The Power of Villainous Thinking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474230)
Round Ten: Henchman Are Villains Too (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478068)
Round Eleven: The Higher They Rise The Harder They Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483052)
Round Twelve: Power Comes at a Price (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488846)
Round Thirteen: The Gadgeteer - You Are Not Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491932)
Round Fourteen: The Thing That Should Not Be (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496091)
Round Fifteen: The Horsemen Are Drawing Nearer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500829)
Round Sixteen: Burn Baby Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503974)
Round Seventeen: It's Alive! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507768)
Round Eighteen: This is Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511933)
Round Nineteen: He Slimed Me! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516535)
Round Twenty: Elder Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521560)
Round Twenty-One: Yarr! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527415-Villainous-Competition-XXI-Yarr!)
Round Twenty-Two: I Am The Night! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?531199-Villainous-Competition-XXII-I-Am-The-Night!)

We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

Contestants:
You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Secret Laboratory:
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.
Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

Deadlines:
Contestants will have until 23:59 GMT Tuesday September 26th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 GMT Tuesday October 10th* to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. *Judging deadline is subject to extension as/if required.

Judging:
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
Originality - Is it unexpected?
Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

Presentation:
Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Note:
There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.


CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


Code immediately below (spoiler).

CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


You can use the table below for Spells.

Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code Immediately Below,
Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Speculation:
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:


Two Heads Are Better Than One!
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.



Limitations



Must have more than one head. The means by which this is accomplished is up to each individual chef.
As always, must be Evil in alignment


We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
So, start your evil plotting!

Submission:
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

PM: Inevitability
Subject: Villainous Competition 23, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 23 Questions in the header.

Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:


- Use capitalization and punctuation, correctly.
- Make good use of Spoilers, for cleanliness.
- Don't forget your sources. If it's something that can be found in the contents section, then book title seems to be fine. Obscure stuff, may want to include page number too.
- DeviantArt has about 9 billion pictures that you can reference, I can almost guarantee you can find one there to fit your character.
- Make good use of tables. In addition to the Build table and the Spells table, I like doing one for my Ability Scores, just to keep it neat.
- Do a build stub at the top of your Build Table, something like Wizard 2/Fighter 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10

As always: let's keep it nice.

I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.

New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

Novolin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?148361-Novolin)
Yklikt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?133435-Yklikt)

[Inevitability]

Clarifications

d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
- I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it! I tend to get quite a few messages of this nature each round.
- For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
- For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
- Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/39/b0/15/39b015bded79d89f1982c61f9aeac584.png


Everyone, have fun!

[Thurbane]

Woop woop! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Yeah, really been looking forward to this one!

Got a few ideas bouncing around...

[danielxcutter]

I have some sort of idea. Whether that will bear fruit without it being already done to death, however, remains to be seen.

[WhamBamSam]

Might actually have some thoughts for this one. We'll see if they congeal into anything palatable or just dive headfirst and headsecond down the TO rabbit hole.

[Technetium43]

Yay, competition is up! Glad to finally be able to do this one, I've had an idea percolating since the concept was proposed that I've wanted to try out. I also composed a list of all monsters that naturally have more than one head in every book, because I'm an obsessive. >_>

[Strigon]

Yay, competition is up! Glad to finally be able to do this one, I've had an idea percolating since the concept was proposed that I've wanted to try out. I also composed a list of all monsters that naturally have more than one head in every book, because I'm an obsessive. >_>

Any chance you could share this wealth of knowledge? I'm having a devil of a time coming up with something that isn't frighteningly obvious.

[Technetium43]

Any chance you could share this wealth of knowledge? I'm having a devil of a time coming up with something that isn't frighteningly obvious.

I actually got rid of it, since I decided on what I wanted to do, but if you want I can go back through, and anyone who wants it can PM me.

[The Viscount]

Ooh, good round. I'll see if I can cook up something interesting for this one.

[daremetoidareyo]

I am only coming up with mechanically-wild, squint-your-eyes builds. It's like the opposite of writer's block. Do you know how many ways there are to get two or more heads in this game? LOTZ. But what am I going to DO WITH ALL THESE HEADS!

We should make a podcast out of skyping this contest out. Just having a few people to discuss what the heck they are thinking, cuz I know I'm not the only giantitp corrupted optimizer here.

Rough format would be similar to a cooking show:
Announce the dish
Brainstorming with: 6-8 people planning on making a build discuss some of the tactics that they are tickling out and speculate wildly
The reveal:
The judges verdict:
Honorable mention
What was missing?

[Strigon]

Nevermind; I was sent a list!

[ArendK]

For once, I think I might become more than a lurker for this one. I have a few ideas for this one actually. I have to get used to using 3.5 again over Pathfinder; yay Hero Lab!

[Thurbane]

Wow. I've had one idea in my head all along for this. Now another has jumped into my mind and won't go away.

Maybe, just maybe, I'll do two entries (time permitting).

[Venger]

Wow. I've had one idea in my head all along for this. Now another has jumped into my mind and won't go away.

Maybe, just maybe, I'll do two entries (time permitting).

I mean if it was ever appropriate to do two dishes

[zlefin]

I can't think of anything :( anything decent that is. only something that's just terribly lame, and another thing that's too cheesy for my taste. ah well, guess I won't enter unless I can find some inspiration.

[White Blade]

I've got an idea. It won't be as Overkill as Akuza, but it should work out fine.

[Thurbane]

Man, I'm glad we get a longer cooking time than IC with VC.

Still nailing down the details of build one, not sure if I'll get build two done or not.

Does anyone else dread formatting and tables as much as I do? :smalltongue:

[daremetoidareyo]

Man, I'm glad we get a longer cooking time than IC with VC.

Still nailing down the details of build one, not sure if I'll get build two done or not.

Does anyone else dread formatting and tables as much as I do? :smalltongue:

You know about using google sheets to develop your build and copy pasting them into a 1 by 1 table using the WYSIWYG mode, right?

I hate the writing part. I want the reader to have mastery of all the build mechanics, cuz every round isn't judged by folks of the same mastery level. So I focus on that.

[WeaselGuy]

I have an idea. It might be stupid, and it should be painfully obvious, but I'm hoping it might be one of those "oh yeah, that'd work" kinda things instead.

[Thurbane]

You know about using google sheets to develop your build and copy pasting them into a 1 by 1 table using the WYSIWYG mode, right?

I hate the writing part. I want the reader to have mastery of all the build mechanics, cuz every round isn't judged by folks of the same mastery level. So I focus on that.

I usually use Excel...is Google Sheets easier?

[Ciolfire]

It's really similar, if you are used to excel you will find google sheets as easy/hard to use.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is certainly interesting. I know my first idea sadly is not great but if I come up with something spiffy I may try an entry.

[WeaselGuy]

Actually, I have a question. Adding the elite array to a creature gives it +1 CR. Do we factor this in to our builds? I know this was brought up in early rounds, but I haven't villainized in a while, so I don't know what came of it.

[Venger]

Actually, I have a question. Adding the elite array to a creature gives it +1 CR. Do we factor this in to our builds? I know this was brought up in early rounds, but I haven't villainized in a while, so I don't know what came of it.
the answer is no. you get 20 cr with the elite array.

[WeaselGuy]

the answer is no. you get 20 cr with the elite array.

Thank you. Just so I understand, let's say I have a 5CR creature, add the elite array on for free, and then 15 class levels, to get 20 CR. Correct?

[Venger]

Thank you. Just so I understand, let's say I have a 5CR creature, add the elite array on for free, and then 15 class levels, to get 20 CR. Correct?

yes, that is correct.

[Thurbane]

OK, I'm going to be that guy...

I have a wedding on Sat 23rd, and I'm going to be struggling to complete my entry by the deadline (through my own procrastination and insomnia/work issues driving me insane). :smallfrown:

Could we have an extension until Sunday or Monday?

[danielxcutter]

Oh right, I was wondering when the deadline was again...

I'd like an extension, but honestly I do feel slightly guilty about asking for one.

[Venger]

I wouldn't have a problem with that

[WhamBamSam]

I'm going to try entering this round, and would also likely benefit from an extension.

[Inevitability]

The deadline shall be extended by two days.

[GrayDeath]

YOu know, this round has too few limits to make me get a stringent concept.

All I have are 13 hairbrained Ideas (and no, making them all part of a thirteenheaded mosntrosity does not work^^)....

IF I manage to get something in it will probably be the most obvious thing to to.....although that Idea isn`t unfun, mind ^^

[LumenPlacidum]

I beg pardon, never done this before.

Does the entry for this have to be of any particular CR? If I build something which is a monster CR 10, then I don't need to supply a CR 5 option, right?

[Thurbane]

You are supposed to advance your entry up to CR 20, but it can have a CR starting point higher than 1. Starting at CR 5 or 10 would be fine, but the expectation is that you add class levels or RHD (or templates) to advance it to an ending point of CR 20.

Traditionally, entries that start close to CR 20 might score a little more poorly that entries that have a larger CR range.

[LumenPlacidum]

Sorry, one more question. I understand that power is one of the criteria, but a well-designed villain is one where the power is well-balanced against how hard it's supposed to be. Are we trying to optimize and create something with more might than its CR would indicate? If I can make a CR 4 villain who can throw around 800 damage a turn, is that a bad thing or a good thing?

[Thurbane]

Sorry, one more question. I understand that power is one of the criteria, but a well-designed villain is one where the power is well-balanced against how hard it's supposed to be. Are we trying to optimize and create something with more might than its CR would indicate? If I can make a CR 4 villain who can throw around 800 damage a turn, is that a bad thing or a good thing?

It all depends on the individual judge. Some just will mark well for TO (theoretical optimization) levels of power, while others would mark down if a monster was too powerful to be realistically used against characters of the appropriate ECL (effective character level) for its CR.

Same with every category - judges will mark according to their own criteria. A build that scores very well with one judge, might score poorly with a different judge.

My personal advice: build a villain that you would be happy to use at your own table - trying to guess what the judges might or might not mark you up or down for can sometimes harm your build.

[LumenPlacidum]

Thanks for the advice!

[Deadline]

Thanks for the advice!

To add to Thurbane's excellent info, I'd strongly encourage you to read the entries from past contests to see what sorts of things have worked well, and what sorts of things haven't. While it's true that each judge sees things differently, you'll often see a quality entry score well from every judge.

[Thurbane]

Some additional tips I'd offer for any competition:

- Try to make your entry as legible as possible. Judges can get frustrated if they don't understand your entry.
- Always try to list sources. Again, judges can get annoyed if they have no idea where some obscure feat or other item you have included comes from.
- Try to include a "build stub" somewhere early on in the entry. It helps the judges and spectators) understand what you are presenting without having to scrutinize all of the build tables. Something like "LE Male Half-Fiendish Hobgoblin Crusader 7/Mortal Hunter 10"...

[ZamielVanWeber]

So with moving my brain burnt out and I still do not have non phone Internet I am definitely not gonna get this in time. Can still judge though since I should be settled in in the new house enough by then.

[ArendK]

I don't have the time to sit down with the books and paw through and put pen to paper for my idea, and my hero lab is missing the useful stuff from Savage Species I was going to use for a few of my ideas.

[Technetium43]

So not only did I actually submit something two competitions in a row, THIS time it even has backstory! :smallbiggrin:

Very thankful for the extension, and I can't wait to see the rest of the builds.

[Thurbane]

So not only did I actually submit something two competitions in a row, THIS time it even has backstory! :smallbiggrin:

Very thankful for the extension, and I can't wait to see the rest of the builds.

I desperately needed the extension. I'm still a little hungover from my friend's wedding on the weekend.

By my reckoning we have just over 22 hours to the extended deadline?

[Thurbane]

Entry in...hopefully (got an odd error after sending, possibly a full inbox?)?

Won't get time for the second entry I was working on, so I'll keep the build stub for a future competition...

[daremetoidareyo]

Your inbox be full, yo!

[Macabaret]

The fullness continues.....

[Thurbane]

Your inbox be full, yo!

The fullness continues.....

To chime in to the chair, I'd like to submit an updated/fixed version of my entry. GMT is 10:39 pm by my reckoning.

[The Viscount]

Very glad I had that extension to finish up my build, I'll join the queue now.

[danielxcutter]

Eh, don't think I'll make this one either. Oh well, I'm not a real optimizer anyways.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Eh, don't think I'll make this one either. Oh well, I'm not a real optimizer anyways.

What is nice about these is the optimization is a bit different. Anyways I'll post some judging criteria tomorrow.

[Thurbane]

Eh, don't think I'll make this one either. Oh well, I'm not a real optimizer anyways.

You could always take a stab at judging. :smallwink:

...and while you mightn't get time to enter this comp, don't be discouraged to enter by optimization or a lack thereof. Sometimes an entry will capture the judges imagination without being overly optimized.


What is nice about these is the optimization is a bit different. Anyways I'll post some judging criteria tomorrow.

Always nice to have a judge stepping up!

[Seto]

Yeah, I was thinking about judging too... But seeing as I'm not very good with optimization and the more obscure rules, I've always doubted my capacity to do so. Let's say I'll wait to see the builds, read them, and if I get how they work, then I'll judge.

[Inevitability]

Inbox has been partially emptied, anyone who was unable to submit their entry can do so now.

[Thurbane]

Inbox has been partially emptied, anyone who was unable to submit their entry can do so now.

Thanks again for your efforts. I know being the chair can be a time consuming and sometimes difficult job.

[NontheistCleric]

I won't be able to submit anything, but I'm interested in judging. Unless there is an experience requirement of some sort (e.g. I must have participated X number of times)?

[Inevitability]

Inbox will be open for another 10 hours or so.

[Seto]

I won't be able to submit anything, but I'm interested in judging. Unless there is an experience requirement of some sort (e.g. I must have participated X number of times)?

Nope, willingness is the only requirement.

[Thurbane]

Nope, willingness is the only requirement.

...and also not being a sub account for someone previously banned from this competition. :smallamused:

Not implying this is the case, of course.

[GrayDeath]

Too late, ah well, my Idea was a bit Silly any ways (and due to not getting to my friends Savage Specias book early enough not feasable to finish).

Gonna post it after the reveal, as much as there is.

And since now, of course, I ahve normal free time, I am willing to judge once more, if you`ll have me. :)

[Inevitability]

Revealing builds now: better late than never! Don't post until reveals are complete and all that.

[Inevitability]

Starting off with a twinteresting build.



http://i67.tinypic.com/2hcn50l.jpg
Taman & Thoron


-~~~~~-
Taman and Thoron had always been...different. The others in their small Dvati community shunned the twins, for their strange abilities. From a young age, they could manifest spells that even some of the priests had not yet mastered, and their odd ability to resist magic unnerved most. The twins were never unduly bothered by this reaction, preferring their own company above all others.

From adolescence onward, they felt a strange compulsion to increase their magical and martial prowess. For many, the gaining of power is a means to an end - to right a wrong, to make a mark on the world, or similar motivations. For Taman and Thoron, the power was the end, in and of itself. Some theorized that the twins had been touched by some dark deity, who instilled in them a lust for power along with the gifts that no other Dvati possessed.

It was a simple matter for the twins to conveniently arrange "saving" some Elven peasants from a Fiendish Ape - none suspected the beast to have been summoned specifically for this purpose. They ingratiated themselves with the Elves to learn their ways, and improve his prowess with blade and spell. Once they learned all they could, they left the Elven community, taking along with them some choice scrolls from the library to inscribe into their spellbook.

As the years moved on, Taman and Thoron continued their mastery of the martial and spellcasting arts - proficiently summoning beasts and other effects, as well as uncanny prowess at defensive magicks.

All the while, the gnawing need to accumulate personal power consumed the twins. More and more they ignored all moral qualms while acquiring this power: if others had to suffer or perish to achieve their ends, so be it. All that mattered was the power, and their ability to wield it.

They believe that one day, whatever fell being set them apart from other Dvati will reveal itself, and then their ultimate purpose would be unveiled...
-~~~~~-


Neutral Evil Male Monster of Legend Dvati Conjuror 2/Ruathar 3/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5

Medium Outsider (native)

HD: 2d4+3d8+8d6+5d10+126 [163hp per twin - see special rules in Dvati racial traits (Dragon Compendium p.17)]

Languages: (automatic) Common, Dvati; (bonus) Abyssal, Draconic, Elven

Abilities Scores:


Level
Array
Template
4th
8th
12th
16th
Final


Str
10
+10
-
-
-
-
20


Dex
13
+6
-
-
-
+1
20


Con
14
+10
-
-
-
-
24


Int
15
+2
+1
+1
+1
-
20


Wis
12
+2
-
-
-
-
14


Cha
8
+4
-
-
-
-
12



Build Table:


CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


3
Enhanced Summoning Immediate Magic Conjuror 1
+0
+0
+0
+2
Concentration +4, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (local) +2, Knowledge (nature) +2, Knowledge (religion) +2, Knowledge (the planes) +2, Spellcraft +4
Augment SummoningB, Combat Casting, Improved InitiativeB, MultiattackB
Abrupt Jaunt, Spells


4
Enhanced Summoning Immediate Magic Conjuror 2
+1
+0
+0
+3
Concentration +5, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (local) +2, Knowledge (nature) +3, Knowledge (religion) +2, Knowledge (the planes) +2, Spellcraft +5, Tumble +1
-
-


5
Ruathar 1
+1
+0
+2
+5
Concentration +6, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (local) +3, Knowledge (nature) +2, Knowledge (religion) +3, Knowledge (the planes) +3, Spellcraft +6, Tumble +1
Knowledge Devotion
Word of friendship, gift of the elves


6
Ruathar 2
+2
+0
+3
+6
Concentration +7, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +3, Knowledge (religion) +3, Knowledge (the planes) +4, Perform (sing) +1, Spellcraft +7, Tumble +2
-
Low-light vision, elfwise


7
Ruathar 3
+3
+1
+3
+6
Concentration +8, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +4, Knowledge (religion) +5, Knowledge (the planes) +5, Perform (sing) +1, Spellcraft +8, Tumble +2
-
Star blessing, Arvandor's grace


8
Eldritch Knight 1
+4
+3
+3
+6
Concentration +9, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Knowledge (the planes) +5, Perform (sing) +2, Spellcraft +9, Tumble +3
Arcane Strike, Two Weapon FightingB
Bonus Feat


9
Eldritch Knight 2
+5
+4
+3
+6
Concentration +10, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Knowledge (the planes) +5, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +10, Tumble +4
-
-


10
Abjurant Champion 1
+6
+4
+3
+8
Concentration +11, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (religion) +5, Knowledge (the planes) +5, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +11, Tumble +4
-
Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration


11
Abjurant Champion 2
+7
+4
+3
+9
Concentration +12, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (religion) +5, Knowledge (the planes) +6, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +12, Tumble +4
Quicken Spell
Swift Abjuration


12
Abjurant Champion 3
+8
+5
+4
+9
Concentration +13, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (religion) +6, Knowledge (the planes) +6, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +13, Tumble +5
-
-


13
Abjurant Champion 4
+9
+5
+4
+10
Concentration +14, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (religion) +6, Knowledge (the planes) +6, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +14, Tumble +5
-
Arcane Boost


14
Abjurant Champion 5
+10
+5
+4
+10
Concentration +15, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (religion) +6, Knowledge (the planes) +7, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +15, Tumble +5
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Martial Arcanist


15
Eldritch Knight 3
+11
+5
+5
+11
Concentration +16, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Knowledge (the planes) +7, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +16, Tumble +5
-
-


16
Eldritch Knight 4
+12
+6
+5
+11
Concentration +17, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (religion) +8, Knowledge (the planes) +8, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +17, Tumble +5
-
-


17
Eldritch Knight 5
+13
+6
+5
+11
Concentration +18, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (religion) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +8, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +18, Tumble +5
Multivoice
-


18
Eldritch Knight 6
+14
+7
+6
+12
Concentration +19, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (religion) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +8, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +19, Tumble +5
-
-


19
Eldritch Knight 7
+15
+7
+6
+12
Concentration +20, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (religion) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +9, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +20, Tumble +5
-
-


20
Eldritch Knight 8
+16
+8
+6
+12
Concentration +21, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +9, Perform (sing) +3, Spellcraft +21, Tumble +5
Rapid Spell
-



Spells Per Day (including ability modifiers):



Conjuror










Cleric






CR
CL
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
CL
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd


3
1st
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


4
2nd
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


5
3rd
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


6
4th
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


7
5th
4+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


8
5th
4+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


9
6th
4+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


10
7th
4+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


11
8th
4+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


12
9th
4+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
1+1
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


13
10th
4+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


14
11th
4+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
1+1
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


15
12th
4+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
2+1
-
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


16
13th
4+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
2+1
1+1
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


17
14th
4+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
5th
5
4
3
1


18
15th
4+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
3+1
2+1
1+1
-
5th
5
4
3
1


19
16th
4+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
3+1
3+1
2+1
-
5th
5
4
3
1


20
17th
4+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
1+1
5th
5
4
3
1



Commonly Memorized Cleric Spells:
0: Cure Minor Wounds x2, Detect Magic x2, Read Magic x1
1st: Lesser Vigor, Protection From Good, Resurgence x2, Sign
2nd: Aid, Close Wounds, Guidance of the Avatar
3rd: Divine Retaliation

Recommended Conjuror Spells For Spellbook: [Conjuration spells are bolded, Abjuration spells are italicized]
0: all except Enchantment and Evocation
1st: Benign Transposition, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Lesser Orb of Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire/Sound, Mage Armor, Nerveskitter, Obscuring Mist, Protection From Good, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, True Strike
2nd: Alter Self, Baleful Transposition, Bladeweave, Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, Cloud of Knives, Detect Invisibility, False Life, Fox’s Cunning, Glitterdust, Heroics, Mirror Image, Protection From Arrows, Resist Energy, Rope Trick, Summon Swarm, Web, Wraithstrike
3rd: Blink, Dispel Magic, Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Magic Circle Against Good, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Protection From Energy, Sleet Storm, Steeldance, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Vampiric Touch
4th: Doom Scarabs, Enervation, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, Orb of Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire/Force/Sound, Polymorph, Shadow Conjuration, Solid Fog, Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV
5th: Break Enchantment, Cloudkill, Dismissal, Overland Flight, Shadow Evocation, Summon Monster V, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Zone of Respite
6th: Acid Fog, Disintegrate, Globe of Invulnerability, Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Binding, Repulsion, Summon Monster VI, Tenser’s Transformation, True Seeing, Wall of Iron,
7th: Bite of the Werebear, Energy Immunity, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport, Ironguard, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, Summon Monster VII
8th: Greater Planar Binding, Iron Body, Mind Blank, Polymorph Any Object, Protection From Spells, Maze, Summon Monster VIII
9th: Black Blade of Disaster, Foresight, Gate, Mordenkainen’s Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Shapechange, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Summon Monster IX, Summon Elemental Monolith, Time Stop

Racial/Template Traits:
Darkvision 60 ft, Echo Attack, Pair Link, Spell Conductor, Twins; Enhanced Attributes (+4 DC on spells, SLAs and special attacks), Spells (cast as a 5th level cleric plus 3 pseudo-domains), Reflective Hide (permanent Su spell turning effect); +5 natural armor bonus, +3 bonus on base saves (not shown on table above), Improved initiative and Multiattack as bonus feats, type changes to outsider (native)

Class Features:
Banned schools - Enchantment and Evocation; Abrupt Jaunt ACF replaces Summon Familiar, Enhanced Summoning ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enhancedSummoning) replaces Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat with Augment Summoning as a bonus feat

How It All Works:
Taman & Thoron are a set of arcane Gish twins. Early entry to Ruathar is possible through being able to cast 3rd level divine spells by virtue of the Monster of Legend Template. The Outsider type gives full martial weapon proficiency, allowing entry to both Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) and Abjurant Champion. Multivoice is what this entry is building to all along. The hefty reqs for this feat delay getting it until CR 17. Multiattack as a bonus feat from the template along with Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat from Eldritch Knight helps ease the feat tax.

CR 3-5:
The twins are a worthy encounter, even at these levels. With 5th level Cleric casting and 3rd level Conjuror casting, they are quite capable spell-slingers (the Cleric spells memorized should be tweaked at this CR to more aimed at attacking the party). Summoned creatures benefit from Augment Summoning. Abrupt Jaunt gives them solid defensive options to avoid attacks. Their AC and saves are boosted by the Monster of Legend template, which also offers Spell Turning. Grease and Glitterdust are effective de-buffs, with the DCs pumped up by Enhanced Attributes. Knowledge Devotion with an expenditure of Guidance of the Avatar can boost their melee potential, although the twins prefer to rely on spells to attack at this level. Alter Self opens up many useful Outsider forms. If they are really pressed, they can use their Echo Attack, but the payoff is quite underwhelming - if the move action could be put to better use elsewhere, they wouldn't bother with it.

CR 6-10:
Arcane Strike is a decent way to boost melee attacks - however due to the wording of the feat, it may be restricted to a single weapon of one twin. Stinking Cloud and Evard's Black Tentacles can be devastating de-buffs/area control, with high save DCs. Two Weapon Fighting, while mainly there as a req for Multivoice, can be effective when used in a Haste boosted full attack from both twins - I'd recommend a two-hander combined with armor spikes. Combos well with Knowledge Devotion. The twins can Gish it up with more confidence.

CR 11-15:
Automatic swift casting of Abjurations is a welcome addition, and helps with action economy against enemies - as does Quicken Spell. Cloudkill and Acid Fog are powerful area attacks. With an impressive Con modifier, the twins are well equipped to go toe to toe, and the above mentioned Arcane Strike and/or Knowledge Devotion combos can now utilize Improved Two Weapon Fighting as well, for an extra attack in a sequence.

CR 16-20:
This is what it's all been building to: Mutlivoice. Throwing two powerful spells per round can even the odds in any encounter. Three spells if a Quicken or swift abjuration is in the mix. Rapid Spell can bring summoned allies into a fight more quickly. Imagine facing down an Elemental Monolith while being hit with Sphere of Ultimate Destruction! Taman and Thoron hit BAB +16 and 9th level spells: the standard for any true Gish, but with added action economy. The DC of spells that allow a save (before any Enhancement or Inherent bonuses to Int) is spell level + 9. The sweet spot of CR 18 falls here (Multivoice and 8th level spells should challenge any party, even those with tier one casters).

Recommended Gear:
Ability boosters (Int and Con primarily); armor with 0 ASF and 0 armor check penalty (+1 twilight mithril chain shirt with armor spikes, for instance); some kind of two-hander melee weapons; a Blessed Book; wands/scrolls of favored spells.

Use In Campaign:
The backstory and motivation of the twins is intentionally vague - they can be the ultimate BBEG of a game, or alternatively, they might by the champions of a greater being (an evil god, archfiend or elder evil, perhaps - the Monster of Legend template implies that a greater power has a hand in the creation of these creatures). As with any full arcane caster, they can operate both as a face to face adversary, or a manipulator (although the twins lend themselves to direct combat over subterfuge).

Creator's note: I'll be very surprised if this is the only Dvati entry this round, but hopefully it's the only Dvati Monster of Legend Gish entry!

Sources: [items not specifically called out here can be found in the core books/SRD]
Artwork: a digital manipulation of original artwork by Emiliano Petrozzi
Complete Arcane: Various spells
Complete Champion: Knowledge Devotion, various spells
Complete Divine: Rapid Spell
Complete Mage: Abjurant Champion, various spells
Complete Warrior: Arcane Strike
Dragon Magazine Compendium: Dvati
Monster Manual II: Monster of Legend
Online: Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)
Player's Handbook II: Immediate Magic, various spells
Races of the Wild: Ruathar
Savage Species: Multivoice
Spell Compendium: various spells
Unearthed Arcana: Enhanced Summoning Conjuror variant

[Inevitability]

Because you and anyone within ten feet of you should suffer whenever you take an action.


Boney Bonnie
Awakened Skeleton 12-headed Pyrohydra
Warhulk 10/Warlock 4
Neutral Evil


Str 15 +12 27
Dex 14 +4 18
Con 08 -- --
Int 10 -8 02
Wis 12 -0 12
Cha 13 -10 03

16: Dex
20: Dex
24: Dex



Bonnie was an animated pet of Kl'Ide, a very powerful Archlich. Fearing the complete corruption of the world, Luna (a strong and valiant Paladin) set out to destroy Kl'Ide. They fought a battle of the ages. A battle that echoed through history in the songs and tales of the greatest bards the realms have known.

But still, the final outcome of that battle is nothing but rumor. Some say that Luna followed Kl'Ide to another plane and destroyed him there. Others believe they fought to their deaths, each destroying the other. Still others tell the tale of Luna using her final breath in prayer, causing a prison of positive energy to contain Kl'Ide in his lair, trapped away from the world.

The reality is, most of the world has either forgotten Bonnie, or never knew she existed. The only surviving witness of that Greatest Battle, Bonnie harbors Vincula, Luna's greatsword. She believes that the soul-essence of both Luna and Kl'Ide reside with it, locked together in an ongoing duel where only the victor can emerge back into the world. Her pea-sized brain working overtime, Bonnie seeks to find a manner to unlock the sword's barriers to free her master and leave Luna trapped alone.

Can Bonnie find a way to do so? Will the PCs discover her intent? (Uhmm, yes, or we don't have a campaign.) Can they stop her...or will she succeed in returning Kl'Ide to the realm? (Hmmm...epic expansion to the campaign?)





CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


6
12 RHD
+6/1
+4
+4
+8
Concentration 7.5
B: Improved Initiative; B: Combat Reflexes; 1st: Power Attack; 3rd: Cleave; 6th: Supernatural Instincts; 9th: Improved Scent; 12th: Martial Study (Foehammer)
NA +3; Immunity to Cold; DR 5/bludgeoning; Darkvision 60'; Fast Healing 22; Low-light Vision; Scent; +2 profane bonus to resist Control Undead; +2 turn resistance


7
Warhulk 1
+6/1
+6
+4
+8
Concentration 8
--
No Time to Think; Str +2 (to 29)


8
Warhulk 2
+6/1
+7
+4
+8
Concentration 8.5
--
Great Swing; Str +2 (to 31)


9
Warhulk 3
+6/1
+7
+5
+9
Concentration 9
15th: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
Mighty Rock Throwing; Str +2 (to 33)


10
Warhulk 4
+6/1
+8
+5
+9
Concentration 9.5
--
Mighty Swing; Str +2 (to 35)


11
Warhulk 5
+6/1
+8
+5
+9
Concentration 10
--
Str +2 (to 37)


12
Warhulk 6
+6/1
+9
+6
+10
Concentration 10.5
18th: Uncanny Scent
Sweeping Boulder; Str +2 (to 39)


13
Warhulk 7
+6/1
+9
+6
+10
Concentration 11
--
Str +2 (to 41)


14
Warhulk 8
+6/1
+10
+6
+10
Concentration 11.5
B: Toughness
Massive Sweeping Boulder; Str +2 (to 43)


15th
Warhulk 9
+6/1 (+1)
+10
+6
+10
Concentration 12
21st: Spellcasting Harrier; B: Toughness
Str +2 (to 45)


16
Warhulk 10
+6/1 (+1)
+11 (+1)
+7 (+1)
+11 (+1)
Concentration 12; Intimidate 1
B: Toughness
Massive Swing; Str +2 (to 47)


17
Warlock 1
+6/1 (+2)
+11 (+1)
+7 (+1)
+11 (+1)
Concentration 13; Intimidate 1
--
Eldritch Blast 1d6; Invocation (Summon Swarm)


18
Warlock 2
+6/1 (+2)
+11 (+2)
+7 (+2)
+11 (+2)
Concentration 14; Intimidate 1
24th: Improved Combat Reflexes
Detect Magic; Invocation (Swimming the Styx)


19
Warlock 3
+6/1 (+3)
+11 (+2)
+7 (+2)
+11 (+2)
Concentration 15; Intimidate 1
--
DR 1/Cold Iron; Eldritch Blast 2d6


20
Warlock 4
+6/1 (+3)
+11 (+3)
+7 (+3)
+11 (+3)
Concentration 16; Intimidate 1
--
Deceive Item; Invocation (See the Unseen)





The Racial Hit Dice of this build come with a lot of goodies. And goodies that work pretty well together.

Hydrae (it's greek, people!) have an interesting kill mechanic. Slicing off heads via the sunder rules, then burning the neck stump is an unusual tactic in D&D. The damage to the neck/head must be done with a slashing weapon, but the Skeleton template offers DR/bludgeoning. Also, pyrohydrae (still greek!) have immunity to fire, so the after-damage to close the neck must be done with either cold or acid. And Skeletons have immunity to cold. So that works fairly well.

Being Awakened (which, I think, was an absolute necessity way back when in these contests as having an INT score was a requirement -- Is that still the case now?) is huge as it returns (EX) abilities (Fast Healing will certainly be helpful to this villain and Scent is of great use) and gives an INT score to the Skeleton. In this case, that Int score is 2, but low as it is, it's enough to give back feat progression for the build!

Speaking of feats, there are six granted by these RHD (five from levels, one bonus.):

Improved Initiative -- The bonus feat. Helpful for most everyone, really.
Combat Reflexes -- A typical feat for hydrae of all kinds, it will be a major focus of the build.

There seems to be some question about how Hydrae use AOOs (and, thus, Combat Reflexes). The confusion circulating on the 'net about it seems to come from some people just not wanting to believe the RAW, even though they don't have any specific reasons to believe that RAI is different. It isn't broken, it isn't unrealistic (relative to the realism of D&D), and it isn't really all that confusing.

When a creature is in a situation where it gets an Attack of Opportunity, it makes an attack. (This is typically listed in the monster stat block under "Attack".) The line
A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. means that a hydra can do just that. Use all of it's heads for an AOO. Just as it appears in it's "Attack" line in the stat block. One attack, multiple bites. Though it isn't specifically stated anywhere that I can find, volley rules should apply.

Power Attack -- A requirement for Cleave.
Cleave -- A requirement for the next section. This monster will make a lot of attacks, so it's likely that it'll get a kill every now and then
Supernatural Instincts -- Yeeessss.... Do remember that Turn Undead is a (SU) ability!
Improved Scent -- To find the hidden rascals better. It gets uncanny later on.
Martial Study (Foehammer) -- With this, we can bypass DR. Again, all heads should get to attack, but I would only apply the extra damage once (as per the volley rules.) This is, really, mostly a prerequisite feat, though.




Warhulk!!
(Did your brain just say "Warhulk smash!!"? Seriously??)

Warhulk is a fun PrC that doesn't advance BAB at all, but adds to STR instead. So, fighting ability is basically a full BAB class but without the iteratives. Which is fine for us, because we're using natural attacks and don't get iteratives, anyway. But the damage.... Whoo-hoo!
The great fun with the PrC, though, is in Great Swing (3rd level). Mighty Swing (4th) opens movement in the round, too. And Massive Swing (10th) is just downright awesome!
A 12-headed pyrohydra can attack 12 times against a single target. With Great Swing, each of those heads can attack 3 targets in a row. Mighty Swing works on AOOs. And Massive Swing lets those 12 heads attack everyone within reach with every attack, including AOOs.
Let's just take a moment to appreciate that:
A cleric tries to use Turn Undead against this villain. The Supernatural Instincts feat kicks in for an attack of opportunity. Twelve heads get to make an attack against the cleric. And then attack the fighter, too. And the rogue. And the wizard if s/he's in range. And, frankly, anyone else who happens to be standing around watching. And if one of those foes falls, Cleave applies, and all twelve heads make another attack against everyone within reach.

Feats added through these levels:

Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) -- Is there something better for a Combat Reflexer?
Uncanny Scent -- Invisible? Not within my reach, you're not.
Toughness (x3) -- Yeah, well, they're free, at least.
Spellcasting Harrier -- The feat that answers the previous question. Yes. Yes, there is something better than Thicket of Blades.




Warlock? Why warlock? For one very simple tactic.
The build is set up to make devastating AOO attacks against everybody. But first, someone has to provoke those attacks. Supernatural Instincts + Thicket of Blades + Spellcasting Harrier means that, most likely, someone will eventually. But now, with Warlock, we can provoke our own AOOs.
How?
With Summon Swarm. All day, every day. A standard action to cast (all invocations are) and suddenly there's a swarm of whatever in our threat range. And it will move, which sets off the AOO. We have no control over it, but we know that it will move. Somewhere. Toward someone. We really don't care who. (It won't be at us. We're undead. Swarms only care about living targets.) The swarm isn't under our control, so it doesn't need to be considered an ally. We can consider it to be a foe, and thus, it can provoke AOOs from us. Which, with Massive Swing, get to attack everybody.

Uhmm...Swimming the Styx...why? I understand your confusion. As an undead creature, we don't need to breathe. But in order to use Scent underwater, you need the ability to breathe underwater. The same goes for spellcasting, so I assume it does for using invocations and other SLAs, too. We might as well put that swim speed to use and have a lair underwater. It just adds that extra layer of defense from those pesky adventurers!

The feat at these levels:

Improved Combat Reflexes -- The feat that answers the question of whether or not there's anything better for a Combat Reflexer than Spellcasting Harrier. 'All day, every day' just became 'all round, every round'.





Pyrohydra: Monster Manual p.155-157
Skeleton Template: Monster Manual p.225-227
Awaken Undead spell: Spell Compendium p. 21
Supernatural Instincts feat: Fiendish Codex II p.85
Improved Scent feat: Savage Species p.36
Martial Study feat: Tome of Battle (Bo9S) p.31
Foehammer maneuver: Tome of Battle (Bo9S) p.59
Warhulk PrC: Miniatures Handbook p.22-24 (Remember your errata!)
Martial Stance feat: Tome of Battle (Bo9S) p.31
Thicket of Blades stance: Tome of Battle (Bo9S) p.61
Uncanny Scent feat: Savage Species p.40
Spellcasting Harrier feat: Draconomicon p.74
Warlock class: Complete Arcane p.5-10
Improved Combat Reflexes feat: Epic Level Handbook p.57 (Please refer to the 3.5 Accessory Update p.7)

[Inevitability]

Two villains for the price of one!



Masa & Mune:

Symbiotic Humans

https://imgur.com/a/F4bmm


https://i.imgur.com/Ooh2F4w.jpg
Generations ago, a blade was formed. Pounded out from the weakest steal in the purest of waters by the ancient artisan Rojiro Fernandez, the Masamune blade was passed from warrior to warrior, shaping the course of battles for hundreds of years. The blood saturated blade of such refined origin attracted a pair of powerful evil spirits who wound up inhabiting the blade. They experienced the blood of every dynasty-changing battle. Eventually, a dynasty was so cruel as to destroy all resistance, and the masamune blade found rest on top of a family hearth. The warrior’s blade of battle had become a token of nobility. Eventually, the blade became a status symbol to be inherited by the Bayushi noble family. The last inheritance delivered the blade to a pair of twin brothers who were told by the governing magistrates to figure out how to share or split the honor of having this blade as their own. They broke it in half against a rock and each kept half. The spirits were finally shunted free to find new beings to inhabit. They each possessed a young noble baby and spirit bonded with them. Those men’s later generations were the spirit linked by these evil forces.

Bayushi Masa was born into the Scorpion Clan. A thirdborn son, as a lesser samurai worked hard to achieve fame and notoriety by volunteering for service in battle between other clans as some sort internship in bloodshed. Other samurai tell stories of how Masa would swell to the size of an ogre, and smash enemies with a sword made of hellish light.

Shinjo Mune is a Unicorn Clan street hustler. The last of seven children in a rich but poorly-reputed family. Shinjo clan has been struck with the wanderlust and thrill of adventure, ever since the emporer assigned them the role of frontier exploration and expansion. Mune’s family had arranged an annulment and second marriage to a scorpion clan courtier a few generations back and continues to suffer from perceptions of severe dishonor for a few generations. Mune had an aggressive and decadent youth across the continent, buying his way out of the troubles he always found himself getting into. He was sent to a monastery in the frontierlands that specialized in training rowdy rich youth, and the experience just armed him with more self control, and a desire for power over others. His intense training culminated in the development of mild psionic potential to shrink themselves.

Masa and Mune met by chance during a parlay at the battle of Elksblood Junction. When they shook hands and repeated the same exact words at the same time. They then both said “Jynx” at the same time, as homage to a ritualized child’s game developed to acknowledge who really said what first. This simultenaety was locked further into place as each flared their psionic hidden talent to escalate for combat. Masa Growing for strength and Mune shrinking for difficulty of striking.

Reality wobbled.

The scions of the evil spirits parasitizing the mighty masamune blade of legend had struck a resonant chord with the script of reality and suddenly, the two men blended into a fusion man. Now, forever more, they must buy each other fizzy soda to unlock the fusion of themselves. The parlay at elksblood junction ended with Masa claiming that the assembled samurai-generals brashly attacking and slaying each other. The local investigator specialized in handling dead bodies and forensics confirmed that all of the samurai had attacked each other. Masa enjoyed a minor celebrity for sending the opposing armies home from battle in respect for the loss of so many great honorable samurai on both sides from the parlay tent. This ended lion/crab clan hostilities in a satisfactory way for both clans.


However cursed, Masa and Mune found that their individual powers stacked. Their psionic potentials each being squarely located in each others conciousness, but they were also a shared being. A shared being that was incredibly capable. He is hard to hit, and many attackers find that they are accidentally hitting their friends to death through their own incompetence when fighting Masamune. Masamune is also quite capable of powerful attacks that hit multiple enemies multiple times per combat using warminds sweeping strike while using insightful strike or greater insightful strike maneuvers (concentration check to determine damage).

Deceptive dodge, combat panache, elusive target, and gnome tunnel acrobatics, and good karma feats allow Mune to force attackers into hitting each other. If the opponents target an ally, they can use good karma to redirect the attack towards themselves...and then divert it into his enemies. At level 12, trickery devotion allows a double of Mune to use his feats to make enemies attack each other through the dodge feats.

The symbiotic template requires that the humanoids just be two size categories apart when they attach. For complete and total RAW availability to keep the symbiosis going with zero plot handwaving, all you need to do is replace psicrystal affinity and psicrystal containment of Mune with extend and persist power, and replace psicrystal containment of Masa with practiced manifester, which should, by CR 12 allow for MASAMUNE to exist for an entire day. Hidden talent compression and expansion paired with karmic twin offers enough mechanical narrative to allow two humans to enter into symbiosis. Considering the way CR is calculated for the template, I advanced the bad guys individual halves through class level gains. At every CR rather than advancing Masamune as a single entity that takes class levels: mostly because initiator level and maneuver availability analysis would be monstrous. The two hate to be apart, but they do detach with some frequency to handle situations that they must attend to personally.

All of Mune’s skills become racial bonuses to Masa’s skills. This makes Masamunes concentration, tumble, and autohypnosis check bonuses crazy high.





Bayushi Masa
NE [ulr=“http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a”] Hidden Talent Bonus Feat[/url] Soulknife 4/ warblade 7/ warmind 7/ fighter 1

Str 15
Con 14
Dex 13
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 12
All level ups go to wisdom

Shinjo Mune
LE Feat Rogue 4/cobra strike monk 2/skilled city dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) fighter 2/skilled city dweller psychic warrior 1/Elocator 3/Fortune’s Friend 5
Str 8
Con 10
Dex 12
Int 15
Wis 14
Cha 13
Add +1 to dex at level 4
Add +1 int at level 8
Add +1 cha at level 12,
Add +1 wis at level 16, and 20




CR
HD
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
skills
Feats
Abilities
Racial bonus on Skill Checks
PP


X
1
1
0
2
2
concentration 4 autohypnosis 4, k psionics 4, tumble 4
B: Hidden Talent (XPH p.67) (expansion), B: weapon focus (mind blade), 1: Karmic Twin (OA p.64), B: Psicrystal Affinity (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalAffinity“) (XPH p.49)
Mind blade, Weapon Focus (mind blade), Hidden Talent, detach
-
2


3
2
2
0
3
3
concentration 5, autohypnosis 5, k psionics 5, tumble 5
1:Hidden Talent (compression), B: Karmic Twin, B: combat expertise
Throw mind blade, bonus feat, trapfinding
concentration +2, autohypnosis +2, tumble +4, Hide +4, move silently +4, bluff +4, disable device +4, UMD +4, intimidate +4, perform +4, k. dungeoneering +2
4


4
3
3
2
3
3
concentration 6, k history 2, tumble 6
3: Psychic renewal(ToB p.32)
Battle Clarity (Ref Saves), Weapon Aptitude, Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect mind, Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stance of clarity
-
4


5
4
4
3
4
3
concentration 7, k psionics 7, tumble 7
B:Psionic Weapon (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon”) (xph p.50), B: Dodge
Bonus feat, Unarmed Strike, Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, AC bonus
concentration +5, tumble +5, umd +5, k. local +1, hide +5
4


6
5
5
3
5
4
concentration 8, k psionics 8, tumble 8, autohypnosis 6
3: psicrystal containment, B: mobility
MindBlade+1, Bonus feat, Evasion
concentration +6, tumble +6, balance +1, perform +6, k. arcana +1
4


7
6
6
4
6
4
concentration 9, tumble 9, balance 1
6:Instant clarity (ToB p.31), B: spring attack
Uncanny Dodge, bonus feat, spell reflection, Maneuver: Action before thought
concentration +7, tumble +7, bluff +7, perform +7, intimidate +6
4


8
7
7
6
6
4
psicraft 2

Chain of personal superiority +2, trap sense +1 Manifesting: Prevenom Weapon, (xph 125)
concentration +8, tumble +8, bluff +8, perform +8, intimidate +8, umd +8, k. local +2
6


9
8
8
7
7
4
psicraft 4
6: Trickery Devotion (Complete Champion p.63), B: Deceptive Dodge (Drag Compendium p.95)
Chain of defensive posture +2, Manifesting: Urban strider (CPsi, 104)
Concentration +9, tumble +9, umd +9, bluff +9, disable device +6, hide +6 , move silently +6, k. local +3
9


10
9
9
7
8
5
concentration 10, tumble 10, UMD 1, k. local 1
9: psicrystal containment, B: combat panache (PHBII p. 93)
Battle Ardor (Critical confirmation), bonus feat, Maneuver: Insightful Strike
concentration +10, tumble +10, umd +10
9


11
10
10
7
8
6
disable device 1/2, concentration 11
B: Elusive target (ComWarrior 110)
Enduring Body (DR 1/-), bonus feat
concentration +11, tumble +11, umd +11, climb +1
13


12
11
11
9
9
6
disable device 1, concentration 12
9: good karma (CS p.77) B: gnome tunnel acrobatics (Dungeonscape, p. 44)
bonus feat, Manifesting: force screen, Hustle (Xph p.111)
concentration +12, tumble +12, autohypnosis +8
18


13
12
12
9
9
6
autohypnosis9, concentration 13
12:psionic meditation, B: sidestep charge (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#sidestepCharge“)
Sweeping strike, scorn earth, sidestep charge, manifesting: chameleon
concentration +13, tumble +13, UPD +4, autohypnosis +10
25


14
13
13
9
9
7
Concentration 14, tumble 11, k. local 3

opportunistic strike, maneuver: Absolute Steel
concentration +14, tumble +14, autohypnosis +14, upd +7
25


15
14
14
10
11
7
autohypnosis10 concentration 14
12: steady concentration (Ros p.144)
Enduring Body (DR 2/-), Easy luck, extra fortune, more luck than skill, (2 luck reroll) Manifesting: concealing amorpha
concentration +15, tumble +15, disable device +8, umd +12, hide +7, move silently +7, bluff+ 11
33


16
15
15
10
12
7
autohypnosis11, concentration 15
15: linked power, B: Advantageous Avoidance(CS p.73)
Chain of personal superiority +4, bonus luck feat, 3 luck reroll
concentration +16, tumble +16, disable device +10, umd +14, bluff +14
42


17
16
16
10
12
7
Concentration 16, tumble 12, k. local 5
B: combat reflexes
Bonus feat, dimension step, manifesting: Call item, Maneuver: Iron heart surge
concentration +17, tumble +17, upd +10, autohypnosis +17, disable device +12
44


18
17
17
11
12
8
Concentration 18, tumble 14
15: Trickery devotion
improved uncanny dodge, Extra fortune, fortune’s favorite, 4 luck reroll
concentration +18, tumble +18, bluff +18, umd +17
44


19
18
18
11
13
8
concentration 20, tumble 16
18: martial study (Manticore parry), B: Unbelievable luck (CS p.81)
Battle Cunning (Damage), bonus luck feat, 6 luck reroll, Maneuvers: greater insightful strike, Manticore parry
concentration +19, tumble +19, autohypnosis +18, bluff +19, disable device +16
44


20
19
19
13
13
8
tumble 18
B: martial study (Scything Strike)
Bonus feat, tower shield proficiency, Extra fortune, lucky strike, 7 luck reroll
concentration +20, tumble +20, bluff +20, autohypnosis +20, umd +19
44



CR9 is the ideal introductory level for this villain. Masamune has a few attack diversions, a few psywar abilities, and some initiator strikes. All of his tricks work at this point. Instant clarity/psychic renewal: 3x day gain focus after a strike, swift action spend focus to recover maneuver by paying power point cost equal to the maneuver level. The psi crystals can also hold focus. He has +21 concentration and +18 tumble. He must fight defensively to activate deceptive dodge. In any combat situation with multiple opponents, Masamune tries to get flanked to activate elusive target, relying on his uncanny dodge abilities to help. Masamune has the spell reflection ACF from complete mage and evasion.

A good plot for this level is the arranged marriage of Masa or Munes’ families. They are in love with each other on a fundamental level, and will delay and spurn this turn of events. Putting one demand on the process after another. They may attempt to kill their bride or their bride’s families. Or, if you want to go a comical route, they demand that their bride be willing to marry both of them simultaneously and in order to please them, they must have four legs to spread. Which is confounded by the fact that the dragon clan’s Takekawa family has an eligible tauric spellweaver/tauric draconic human/camel princess that they’ve locked in a tower for the last 20 years who has studied shugenja magics. Her older siblings all died in an oni-related incident. And she happens to fit all of those provisions of MasaMune. The nice thing about the lands of the mutant magic using princess is that they are in vital opium trafficking territory, and Masa could turn a blind eye to that part of his family’s business for them.


CR 12, If masamune is struck, they use Combat panache the next round (bluff check vs sense motive) as a move action to make them attack someone else, using hustle to get their move back to help activate gnome tunnel acrobatics combat puppeteer ability. Elocator’s Scorn earth helps tumble through difficult terrain, and insightful strike allows you to use your concentration check in place of damage rolls. Hustle also helps with the psionic meditation at CR 13. Steady concentration allows for the taking of 10 on concentration checks. This Level is the high point of the villain. Everything after this requires psionic or spellcasting support and a number of mooks. Masamune will avoid combat situations where they fall privy to ranged attacks, but will engage in combat with multiple melee opponents whenever possible.

At this level, a second marriage (if they killed the bride or family before the first marriage) would make a great plot reason to hire PCs to keep Masamune out of trouble. They may split and attempt to have each half run away right before the ceremony….Another option, if you’ve decided to have masamune and his/their spellweaver camel consort get married and rule, would be to use them as a powerful villainous couple. Perhaps they are attempting to take over rulership of the dragon clan and have chosen to secretly incite rivalries between the Isaka Family and their western neighbors of the Ibe family. Masamune is 100% against shadowlands taint, (“The shadowlands always win!”) and begins a draconian crackdown on shadowlands studies (like those of his wife’s family) and maho magic.

At the highest levels, Masamune has 7 luck points to use on good karma shenanigans, a ton of PP to re-obtain maneuvers, two or three different abilities to strike two opponents or more at full force, 4 psionic focuses at the beginning of battle, and 4 different ways to make opponents hit each other. He has greater insightful strike and the ability to take 10 concentration checks on which he has (with no gear), a +40 to. When combined with sweeping strike, that means that he is dealing 100 damage to two people and can regain a focus while initiating the strike and/or spend his focus to re-ready the maneuver.

At really high levels, Masamune is a great lieutenant type character who needs a buffer and some ranged attack allies. His story arcs at this point can include taking over some mountain passes to secure a monopoly on fizzy drinks. Some court intrigue about the mutants running around pretending to be samurai up north that causes them to begin retributive slaying of the slanderer’s families.

In all honesty, it would be really cool that if you ever kill masamune in combat, that his mindblade drops into a real life sword with the abilities of the ancient masamune blade.


Masa:


Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
skills
Feats
Abilities
PP


1
Soulknife 1
1
0
2
2
concentration 4 autohypnosis 4, k psionics 4, tumble 4
B: Hidden Talent (XPH p.67) (expansion), B: weapon focus (mind blade), 1: Karmic Twin (OA p.64), B: Psicrystal Affinity (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalAffinity“) (XPH p.49)
Mind blade, Weapon Focus (mind blade), Hidden Talent
2


2
Soulknife 2
2
0
3
3
concentration 5, autohypnosis 5, k psionics 5, tumble 5

Throw mind blade
2


3
Warblade 1
3
2
3
3
concentration 6, k history 2, tumble 6
3: Psychic renewal(ToB p.32)
Battle Clarity (Ref Saves), Weapon Aptitude, Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect mind, Steel Wind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stance of clarity
2


4
Bonus Feat (http://“http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a”) Soulknife 3
4
3
3
3
concentration 7, k psionics 7, tumble 7
B:Psionic Weapon (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon”) (xph p.50)
Bonus feat
2


5
Soulknife 4
5
3
4
4
concentration 8, k psionics 8, tumble 8, autohypnosis 6

MindBlade+1
2


6
warblade 2
6
4
4
4
concentration 9, tumble 9, balance 1
6:Instant clarity (ToB p.31)
Uncanny Dodge. Maneuver: Action before thought
2


7
warmind (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm “) 1
7
6
6
4
psicraft 2

Chain of personal superiority +2: Manifesting: Prevenom Weapon, (xph 125)
4


8
warmind 2
8
7
7
4
psicraft 4

Chain of defensive posture +2, Manifesting: Urban strider (CPsi, 104)
7


9
warblade 3
9
7
8
5
concentration 10, tumble 10, UMD 1, k. local 1
9: psicrystal containment
Battle Ardor (Critical confirmation)
7


10
warmind 3
10
7
8
6
disable device 1/2, concentration 11

Enduring Body (DR 1/-),
11


11
warmind 4
11
8
9
6
disable device 1, concentration 12

Manifesting: Hustle (Xph p.111)
16


12
warmind 5
12
8
9
6
autohypnosis9, concentration 13
12:psionic meditation
Sweeping strike
22


13
warblade 4
13
9
9
6
Concentration 14, tumble 11, k. local 3

maneuver: Absolute Steel
22


14
warmind 6
14
10
10
7
autohypnosis10 concentration 14

Enduring Body (DR 2/-), Manifesting: concealing amorpha
30


15
warmind 7
15
10
10
7
autohypnosis11, concentration 15
15: linked power
Chain of personal superiority +4
39


16
warblade 5
16
10
10
7
Concentration 16, tumble 12, k. local 5
B: combat reflexes
Bonus feat, Maneuver: Iron heart surge
39


17
warblade 6
17
11
11
8
Concentration 18, tumble 14

improved uncanny dodge
39


18
warblade 7
18
11
11
8
concentration 20, tumble 16
18: martial study (Manticore parry)
Battle Cunning (Damage) Maneuvers: greater insightful strike, Manticore parry
39


19
fighter 1
19
13
11
8
tumble 18
B: martial study (Scything Strike)
Bonus feat, tower shield
39



MUNE


Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
skills
feat
abilities
PP


1
Feat (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue”) Rogue
0
0
2
0
concentration 2, autohypnosis 2, tumble 4, Hide 4, move silently 4, bluff 4, disable device 4, UMD 4, intimidate 4, perform 4, k. dungeoneering 2
1:Hidden Talent (compression), B: Karmic Twin, B: combat expertise
bonus feat, trapfinding
2


2
cobra strike monk (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike”)1
0
2
4
2
7:concentration 5, tumble 5, umd 5, k. local 1, hide 5
B: dodge
Unarmed Strike, Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, AC bonus
2


3
cobra strike monk 2
1
3
5
3
concentration 6, tumble 6, balance 1, perform 6, k. arcana 1
3: psicrystal containment, B: mobility
Bonus feat, Evasion
2


4
Spell reflection (CM p.35) feat rogue 2
2
3
6
3
11: concentration 7, tumble 7, bluff 7, perform 7, intimidate 6
B: spring attack
bonus feat, spell reflection
2


5
feat rogue 3
3
4
6
4
11: concentration 8, tumble 8, bluff 8, perform 8, intimidate 8, umd 8, k. local 2

trap sense +1
2


6
feat rogue 4
4
4
6
4
11: Concentration 9, tumble 9, umd 9, bluff 9, disable device 6, hide 6 , move silently 6, k. local 3
6: Trickery Devotion (Complete Champion p.63), B: Deceptive Dodge (Drag Compendium p.95)
uncanny dodge
2


7
skilled city dweller (http://“http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a”) Fighter 1
5
6
6
4
5: concentration 10, tumble 10, umd 10
B: combat panache (PHBII p. 93)
bonus feat
2


8
Fighter 2
6
7
6
4
6: concentration 11, tumble 11, umd 11, climb 1
B: Elusive target (ComWarrior 110)
bonus feat
2


9
skilled city dweller psywarrior 1
6
9
6
4
8: concentration 12, tumble 12, autohypnosis 8
9: good karma (CS p.77) B: gnome tunnel acrobatics (Dungeonscape, p. 44)
bonus feat, manifesting: force screen
2


10
Elocator (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm”)1
6
9
8
6
10: concentration 13, tumble 13, upd 4, autohypnosis 10
B: sidestep charge (http://“http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#sidestepCharge“)
scorn earth, sidestep charge, manifesting: chameleon
3


11
Elocator 2
7
9
9
7
10: concentration 14, tumble 14, autohypnosis 14, upd 7

opportunistic strike
3


12
fortune’s friend (complete Scoundrel p.38) 1
7
9
11
7
10: concentration 15, tumble 15, disable device 8, umd 12, hide 7, move silently 7, bluff 11
12: steady concentration (Ros p.144)
Easy luck, extra fortune, more luck than skill, (2 luck reroll)
3


13
fortune’s friend 2
8
9
12
7
concentration 16, tumble 16, disable device 10, umd 14, bluff 14
B: Advantageous Avoidance(CS p.73)
bonus luck feat, 3 luck reroll
3


14
elocator 3
9
10
12
7
10: concentration 17, tumble 17, upd 10, autohypnosis 17, disable device 12

dimension step, manifesting: Call item
5


15
fortune’s friend 3
9
11
12
8
10: concentration 18, tumble 18, bluff 18, umd 17
15: Trickery devotion
Extra fortune, fortune’s favorite, 4 luck reroll
5


16
fortune’s friend 4
10
11
13
8
concentration 19, tumble 19, autohypnosis 18, bluff 19, disable device 16
B: Unbelievable luck (CS p.81)
bonus luck feat, 6 luck reroll
5


17
fortune’s friend 5
10
11
13
8
concentration 20, tumble 20, bluff 20, autohypnosis 20, umd 19

Extra fortune, lucky strike, 7 luck reroll
5

[Inevitability]

Why did it have to be snakes? (It's 11 PM and I'm tired, sue me for re-using jokes)



https://yallambie.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/ouroboros.jpg
Aperantos, the Serpent of Infinity
Yuan-ti Anathema Binder 2


I have been called by many an incarnation of the god Merrshaulk. I was born and raised by the cult believing such, and even to this day some still hold that to be true. For those who dare to say it to my face, they would be quite lucky if death were the only thing I had available to deal with them. Unfortunately for them, I have much, much worse. The day of my birth was the greatest day of my brood-parent's lives. As well as their last. As if the Cabal would ever let an Anathema like myself into anyone else's hands.

I was fed a diet of praise and platitudes, taught their lore, and groomed to do great things. Or perhaps, I should say, to let the Cabal do great things. Needless to say, this was unacceptable. Perhaps if they had kept me more sheltered I would have been more willing to let them use me, but I saw much I was not meant to. I saw their weakness, how tenuous their control over our race was. I saw the outcasts, the dissidents, and knew the fear that they struck in the hearts of our Elders. I saw the lore and magic that should have been forbidden, and learned of it. And I saw the truth: Merrshaulk was weak. To compare me to this squabling, pathetic 'god' was an affront to my stature.

Despite this, I knew that there were many more powerful beings out there, perhaps even one that might be deserving of my aid. My seizure of our sect was swift, those who heard my word learned true fear, and those who didn't provided ample bodies for experimentation. I took power and resources, both literal and metaphorical, from the Cabal sanctum I resided in, and set about expanding. And here, I made my first and only mistake: underestimating humans. They repelled my attempts at overwhelming them with deceptive speed, and I knew that I must go about it a different way. And it was know that I learned about the one being who is worthy of being served by me: Sertrous.

I was approached by a servant of his, and he became my vizier, teaching me of the mistakes I and those before me have made. Though the humans may have cut off one head of my operation, I still had many left. The rest of the jungle was a risk, one I could not take, and so I instead focused my efforts on subjugating and assimilating the rest of my kind, eliminating any of Merrshaulk's pathetic groupies I came across. Here, the humans made their first mistake, soon to be one of many. They let me 'clean up' the jungle, and didn't even try to interfere. They thought that just because I wasn't targeting them, they were safe. It was adorable.

Soon enough, I was ready to lead the newest and final incarnation of the Vanguard of Sertrous. Aided by one voice from the past and three from the void, it is time for me to show these lesser beings who is, as they say, 'boss'.



Attribute
Base
Racial
Level
Total


Strength
14
16
-
30


Dexterity
13
2
-
15


Constitution
12
18
-
30


Intelligence
10
14
-
24


Wisdom
8
14
-
22


Charisma
15
12
1
28






CR
HD
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Skills
Feats
Class Features


18
22
Yuan-ti Anathema
+16
+7
+7
+13
Bluff 24 (12), Concentration 25 (25), Hide 25 (25), Diplomacy 24 (12), Knowledge (Arcana) 25 (25), Knowledge (Religion) 25 (25), Listen 25 (25), Move Silently 25 (25), Spot 25 (25)

Clarity of Vision
Multigrab, Apostate, Greater Multigrab, Chosen of Evil, Endurance, Diehard, Dark Speech, Combat Reflexes, Quick Change, Slave to Evil, Dark Whispers, Insane Defiance, Steadfast Determination
see stablock


19
23
Binder 1
+16
+9
+7
+15
Concentration 1 (26), Diplomacy 4 (16), Hide 2 (26), Move Silently 2 (26)
-
Soul Binding


20
24
Binder 2
+17
+10
+7
+16
Concentration 1 (27), Diplomacy 4 (20), Hide 2 (27), Move Silently 2 (27)
Spellcasting Harrier
Pact Augmentation, Suppress Sign



Feats in italics are those gained at first level and every fifth level thereafter from devotion to Sertrous.

Due to only possessing two class levels, Asperantos' table is rather clunky. For additional aid, I have enclosed a proper statblock in the spoiler below.

Aperantos
Yuan-ti Anathema Binder 2
CE Huge Abberation
Init +2 (+2 Dex); Senses All-around Vision, Darkvision 60 ft., Scent; Listen +31, Spot +35
Languages Yuan-ti, Common, Draconic, Abyssal

AC 30, touch 10, flat-footed 28 (+2 Dex, -2 Size, +20 Natural Armor)
HP 24d8+240 (351 HP average); Regeneration 5 (Force or Adamantine); DR 15/Good and Magic
Immune Acid, Poison; Resistances Electricity 10, Fire 10
Fort +20, Ref +9, Will +26 (+14 vs. Divine Spells)
Spell Resistance 26 (31 vs. Divine Spells)

Speed 40 ft. Land, 20 ft. Climb, 20 ft. Swim
Attack Bite +28 or Claw +23
Full Attack 6 Bites +28 and 2 Claws +23
Damage Bite 1d8+10 plus poison, Claw 1d8+5
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Attack +17; Grapple +36
Special Attacks Constrict 1d8+10, Improved Grab, Poison, Psionics, Spell-like Abilities

Abilities Str 30, Dex 15, Con 30, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 28
Special Qualities Acid Immunity, All-around Vision, Attach Grafts, Darkvision 60 ft., DR 15/Good and Magic, Electricity Resistance 10, Fire Resistance 10, Poison Immunity, Regeneration 5, Scent, SR 26
Feats 1st - Multigrab, 1st - Apostate, 3rd - Greater Multigrab, 5th - Chosen of Evil, 6th - Endurance, 9th - Diehard, 10th - Dark Speech, 12th - Combat Reflexes, 15th - Quick Change, 15th - Slave to Evil, 18th - Dark Whispers, 20th - Insane Defiance, 21st - Steadfast Determination, 24th - Spellcasting Harrier
Skills Bluff +21, Climb +18, Concentration +37, Hide +21*, Diplomacy +31, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +32, Knowledge (Religion) +32, Listen +31, Move Silently +29, Search +11, Spot +35, Swim +18

Constrict (Ex) With a successful grapple check, Aperantos can constrict a grabbed opponent, dealing 1d8+10 points of bludgeoning damage.

Improved Grab (Ex) If Aperantos hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than himself with a bite attack, he deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (grapple bonus +36). If he gets a hold, he also constricts on the same round. Thereafter, he has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use one of his six serpent-heads to hold the opponent (no penalty due to Greater Multigrab).

Poison (Ex) Aperantos delivers his poison (Fort DC 32 negates) with each successful bite attack. Initial and secondary damage are the same (1d4 Con).

Psionics (Sp) Aperantos can produce the following effects at will.

Alternate Form: Aperantos can assume the form of a Tiny to Huge viper (see the Monster Manual). In viper form, his poison deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage instead of 1d4.

In addition, he can assume the form of a viper swarm.

Chameleon Power: Aperantos can change the coloration of himself and his equipment to match his surroundings. *Using chameleon power gives a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks.

Detect Poison: As the spell cast by a 20th-level sorcerer.

Dissolving Touch: Asperantos can exude acid from his body, dealing 7d6 points of acid damage to anything he touches. If he uses this power when grappling or constricting an opponent, the acid deals 10d6 points of damage instead. The acid is effective only on the round when this power is used, and it becomes inert when it leaves his body.

Mass Aversion: Asperantos creates a compulsion effect targeting all enemies within 30 feet. The targets must succeed on a Will save (DC 31) or gain an aversion to snakes for 10 minutes. Affected subjects must stay at least 20 feet from any snake, yuan-ti, or ti-khana creature, whether alive or dead; if already within 20 feet, they move away. A subject can overcome the compulsion by succeeding on another Will save (DC 31), but still suffers from deep anxiety. This causes a –4 reduction to Dexterity until the effect wears off or the subject is no longer within 20 feet of a snake, yuan-ti, or tikhana creature. This ability is otherwise similar to antipathy as cast by a 16th-level sorcerer.

Spell-Like Abilities 3/day—animal trance, cause fear, deeper darkness, entangle, haste, neutralize poison, suggestion, baleful polymorph, unholy blight; 1/day—blasphemy, unholy aura. Caster level 20th; save DC 16 + spell level.

All-Around Vision (Ex) Asperantos’ six heads allow him to see in all directions at once. Because of this ability, he has a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks, and he cannot be flanked.

Attach Grafts (Su) Asperantos has the ability to transform humanoid and monstrous humanoid creatures, making them more like yuan-ti. Each day, he can attach eight yuan-ti grafts to one or more creatures. This requires 1 hour of uninterrupted work per graft, during which he can do nothing else. Between grafts, he can rest or engage in light activity such as talking or walking, but cannot fight, cast spells, use magic items, conduct research, or perform any other physically or mentally demanding task.

In addition, he can create the mixture of venom, roots, and herbs required to create either a tainted one or a broodguard.

Regeneration (Ex) Asperantos takes normal damage from force effects and adamantine weapons. Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration, and he does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Scent (Ex) Asperantos can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

Skills Asperantos has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. He has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard and can always choose to take 10 on Swim checks, even if distracted or endangered. He has a +8 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

Despite not possessing the versatility of, say, a 20th level Wizard, Aperantos has a surprising amount of tricks and abilities. Rather than expect people to pick up on every single one of them, just from a glance at the statblock, I will have below a list of the notable abilities of Aperantos to keep in mind.

While his role in the campaign is more of a mastermind than a brute, Aperantos is no slouch when it comes to combat. With a +36 grapple check (BEFORE item boosts), Greater Multigrab, Improved Grab, and 6 'limbs' for holding, he can lock down a large area with little effort. The casters will of course be his first priority, but by having each of his heads be wrapped up in, well, wrapping people up, it can actually eventually lead to his downfall (if you so desire). With his Dissolving Touch power, he can rely on his Attacks of Opportunity to let him get grabs, and then pump them with acid and constriction as much as he desires. Either way, his grappling skills are solid enough to carry him as far as physical combat goes.

Getting killed early is no fun for anyone, and certainly doesn't make for a good dramatic villain. Luckily, Aperantos is at no risk of this. With DR 15/Good and Magic, Regeneration 5 of a very unique and difficult type to bypass, 351 HP on average, and the ability to just up and disappear into the crowd of snakes, his base kit alone is incredibly difficult to take down permanently if you don't want him to be killed. Being able to turn into a swarm of snakes is very conducive to this, as he is unable to be harmed by adamantine weapons in that form, and the vast majority of force spells aren't also area spells, leaving him safe enough to hide and Regenerate back to full.

Devotion to an Elder Evil provides Aperantos with a large number of Vile feats, and given that he's not dumping them all into Deformity feats like most would, that gives him plenty to spec towards screwing over divine casters. First off is Apostate, giving him a whopping +12 on saves against divine spells. Next is the Slave to Evil feat, which gives him even more anti-divine properties as his master's sign increases in power. As the PCs should almost always be fighting Aperantos while the sign is at Overwhelming strength, he receives the following benefits: another +2 on saves vs. divine spells, +1 to hit and damage vs. divine casters, +5 SR vs. divine spells (bringing it up to actually CR appropriate levels), and Impeding divine spells cast within 30 ft. (forcing a DC 20 + spell level Spellcraft check or making them lose the spell). Additionally, he possesses the Spellcasting Harrier Epic feat, allowing him to make AoOs against even defensive spellcasting within his 15 ft. reach, which then usually leads into a grapple.

Despite his massive size, Aperantos has incredible abilities as far as stealth and espionage. Okay that first bit is probably misleading, as most of his stealth relies on his Alternate Form ability to turn into either a Viper Swarm or a Tiny Viper. Should he need to get away, his usual tactic is to use his Deeper Darkness spell-like ability as a standard action, and then shift as a move action (with the Quick Change feat) to a viper swarm. As he should have multiple viper swarms and snakes of assorted types near him in the final confrontation, he can blend in easy, becoming incredibly hard to damage as he heals up. As a tiny viper, he mostly just has very high Hide and Move Silently, boosted even further by his Chameleon power, letting him set up for that DRAMATIC ENTRANCE for the PCs very easily.

You don't amass the kind of power and numbers Aperantos wields without extensive ability to manipulate and charm those you need to advance your goals. Aperantos is distinctly not lacking in this area. With a 28 unboosted charisma, high ranks in both Bluff and Diplomacy, as well as the ability to take 10 on both of those checks through his pact with Naberius, he can easily and quickly sway people to his point of view, hitting enough to take anyone from hostile to friendly with a standard action, or from anything else to helpful. Additionally, he has Suggestion as an SLA, as well as a trick to boost its DC. By casting it on himself and then using Insane Defiance to 'bounce' it to someone else, he can boost the DC by 4 and then heal up the Wis damage instantly with Naberius' Faster Ability Healing. He uses this same trick to mitigate the costs of Dark Speech and Chosen of Evil as well.

As a 'final boss' sort, it's very important to support Aperantos with a good secondary cast, both on his side and against it. While his position as a manipulator, servant of Sertrous, and creator of monsters has great potential, it also can swing towards overwhelming without aid, or underwhelming without a proper backbone of mooks to slay.

First, let's look towards the PC side. As a Vile creature of great evil, obviously any Good sorts are absolutely not going to be on his side. Paladins, clerics of Good gods, the like. However, Aperantos has one enemy that might not look like an enemy at first glance: most other Yuan-ti. Given his hatred of Merrshaulk, most other Yuan-ti aren't exactly predisposed to like him. There is great potential for an uneasy alliance between high priests of Merrshaulk and the PCs. Should the PCs lack a way to overcome Aperantos' Regeneration or deal damage to his swarm form, it would not be unreasonable to provide an allied Cleric of Merrshaulk, with access to things like Blade Barrier or an adamantine weapon to overcome Aperantos' regeneration, as well as extra healing should it be necessary. To truly showcase the uniting potential of Aperantos as a threat, I would actually suggest having an earlier plot in the campaign being against the Yuan-ti who will eventually become the PC's allies, bringing the themes in early, and rewarding them for not just murder-hoboing their way to victory. But that's not to say that ALL Yuan-ti are going to be willing to cooperate.

On Aperantos' side, we have not only the Yuan-ti servitors who are sticking with him, but the numerous snake-like creatures spawned by Sertrous' Infestation, as well as Tainted Ones and Broodguard that Aperantos himself has created. Let's go through them one by one. First, we have the other Yuan-ti. Important to note is that these Yuan-ti are OUTCASTS to the rest of Yuan-ti society. It would serve them well to have unique traits and disabilities, to showcase exactly how Aperantos is gathering such a disparate and seemingly aimless following. Additionally, none of them are followers of Merrshaulk, and often will be at odds with those who are. They are all devoted, to some level, to Sertrous (though this is only in the late stages), meaning you have an innate source of Vile feats to play with. This can be used to foreshadow some of Aperantos' tricks, such as Dark Speech and using Insane Defiance to bounce spell-like abilities off themselves. Additionally, if you want a Dragon (in the TV Tropes sense) to go along with Aperantos, the Elder Evils book provides a perfectly usable one in Seghulerak. Simply replace Avamerin with Aperantos, and you have a perfectly competent and compelling villain.

Next, we have the Infestation. Rather than go over exactly what it entails, I'll simply provide you with the descriptive text for it.


The earth vomits torrents of snakes and serpentine creatures. At first these infestations consist of normal snakes, but as the infestation grows, monstrous creatures such as chaotic evil nagas, hydras, and even mariliths become more common. As the sign grows more potent, the infesting serpents become increasingly more deformed. Some might have multiple heads, others are inside out, and some might have no head or tail—they’re simply a mass of coils with no end or beginning.

These 'shock troops' so to speak are going to provide the bulk of conflict throughout the campaign. Notably, it would serve best for these to be more 'aimless' in nature, perhaps even conflicting a bit with the normal troops of Aperantos, to provide contrast with the zealous and brutal Broodguard, and the stealthy Tainted Ones.

Speaking thereof, the final 'head' of Aperantos' forces are the results of his experimentation: Tainted Ones, Broodguard, and Ti-khana. Being a Yuan-ti Anathema, Aperantos has a built in way to create the first two. They are loyal servants who are not bound by magic of any sort, making it that much more potentially horrifying when finding out that returning characters who were once allies have been turned into, well, these. Tainted Ones serve as a source of intrigue, and the PCs should quickly become adept at noticing the signs of someone having been Tainted, perhaps spawning an entire sub-campaign of potential horror-style investigations. Additionally, Tainted Ones have access to Polymorph into "snakes or snakelike forms". While the actual degree of this is up to the DM, one potential option is to have multiple Tainted Ones Polymorph into a Viper Swarm, and have Aperantos use Dark Speech to hivemind them all together. That's an option for high optimization parties however, so most likely should not be assumed.

Broodguard and Ti-khana however, are all about the brutal combat. Broodguard will usually have been kitted out with a full set of Yuan-ti Grafts, giving them multiple sources of Con damaging poison, as well as a distinctive appearance. Ti-khana are much simpler, being modified snakes and dinosaurs, but they are good filler units to provide a challenge at lower levels, or fill out an attack squad in the mid levels.

Complete Scoundrel - Clarity of Vision
Elder Evils - Apostate, Chosen of Evil, Dark Speech, Dark Whispers, Insane Defiance, Slave to Evil
Fiend Folio - Yuan-ti Anathema, Viper Swarm
Player's Handbook 2 - Steadfast Determination
Savage Species - Greater Multigrab, Multigrab
Tome of Magic - Binder, Naberius

[Inevitability]

Let me give you a heads up: this build is weird.



Chuck and Rufus, the Headsmen
https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/ageofempires/images/7/7b/Troll.jpg.png
NE Shadow Multiheaded Primordial Giant Troll Duskblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Duskblade 8

Stats (with modifiers)
Str 14 (22)
Dex 10 (14)
Con 13 (25)
Int 15
Wis 12 (10)
Cha 8
Build


CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


8
Giant HD 8 (CR 8)
+6/+1
+6
+2
+2
Balance 8, Concentration 2(4), Listen 11, Spot 11, Tumble 5(10)
(B)Improved Initiative, (B) Combat Reflexes, Martial Study (Steel Wind), Bind Vestige (Amon), Practiced Binder (Amon)
Darkvision 90 feet, LLV, Regeneration 5, Scent, Rend, +6 Natural Armor, Superior Two Weapon Fighting, Cold Resistance 13, Shadow Blend, Fast Healing 2, Evasion, Invisibility (CL 9)


9
Duskblade 1
+7/+2
+8
+2
+4
Concentration 6
Martial Stance (Punishing Stance)
Arcane Attunement, Armored Mage (Light), Skilled City Dweller (Ride to Tumble)


10
Duskblade 2
+8/+3
+9
+2
+5
Concentration 10
(B)Combat Casting
Combat Casting


11
Duskblade 3
+9/+4
+9
+3
+5
Concentration 14

Arcane Channeling


12
Duskblade 4
+10/+5
+10
+3
+6
Concentration 15, Tumble 8
Point Blank Shot
Armored Mage (Medium)


13
Bloodstorm Blade 1
+11/+6/+1
+12
+3
+6
Concentration 16, Tumble 13
(B)Throw Anything
Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon Aptitude


14
Bloodstorm Blade 2
+12/+7/+2
+13
+3
+6
Concentration 17, Spot 13, Tumble 17

Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw


15
Bloodstorm Blade 3
+13/+8/+3
+13
+4
+7
Concentration 18, Spot 17, Tumble 18
(B)Spectral Skirmisher, Detach
Bonus Fighter Feat


16
Bloodstorm Blade 4
+14/+9/+4
+14
+4
+7
Concentration 19, Jump 2, Spot 19, Tumble 19

Lightning Ricochet


17
Duskblade 5
+15/+10/+5
+14
+4
+7
Concentration 20, Jump 4, Tumble 20

Quick Cast 1/day


18
Duskblade 6
+16/+11/+6/+1
+15
+5
+8
Concentration 21, Jump 6, Tumble 21
Martial Stance (Dancing Blade Form)
Spell Power +2


19
Duskblade 7
+17/+12/+7/+2
+15
+5
+8
Concentration 22, Jump 8, Tumble 22

Armored Mage (Heavy Shield)


20
Duskblade 8
+18/+13/+8/+3
+16
+5
+9
Concentration 23, Jump 10, Tumble 23




Spells
Spells per Day


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


9th
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
5
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
6
5
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
6
6
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
6
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
6
7
6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Spells Known
0th: Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue
1st: Blade of Blood, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2nd: Dimension Hop, Ghoul Touch, Spider Climb, Touch of Idiocy
Backstory
Spend too much time with anybody, and they can start to get on your nerves. When you share those nerves with somebody, then things can get really tough.

Just ask Chuck and Rufus. Two heads made the brothers brighter than most trolls, but it didn’t do anything to make them less ill-tempered. They fought all the time, but trolls can bounce back from black eyes and boxed ears much faster than most, so they vented their aggressions (it’s supposed to be healthier).

Chuck wanted to practice Pact Magic, Rufus wanted to study the path of the blade, so they split the difference, half-heartedly studied both, and learned arcane magic they could channel through their strikes. A good compromise leaves everyone unhappy.

One day they were arguing, though neither can remember what they were arguing about, and it reached a breaking point. One brother became so furious he ripped the other’s head from their shared body. If you ask Chuck, he did it to Rufus; if you ask Rufus, he was the one who took action. The important thing is that it happened, and the brothers learned that the separated head survived with total clarity, at least long enough to instruct his brother to reattach him to the stump of a neck that remained. When they were done bickering, the brothers realized that the severed head had gotten some good airtime. Combined with a good spell and the brothers’ strength of arm, it could provide a real advantage in a fight.

Somehow Chuck and Rufus became convinced that their idea was so good that they should focus on it as their primary means of combat. Maybe they really did think it was that good of a strategy. Maybe they just wanted the opportunity to get to rip each other off the body. In all likelihood, it’s a little of both.

If you ever come across them you may not see them coming, but you’ll definitely hear them. Just listen for two rumbling voices arguing about whose turn it is to be the thrower.
CR 8
We’ve got a fair amount going on from the beginning, so let’s discuss. In a stroke of luck, your HD equals your CR at every level, so the chart is simplified. Troll is a solid form boasting large size with reach, good natural attacks, rend, and good old regeneration. The mental stat adjustments are a bit harsh, so the first thing we’re going to do is apply primordial giant to boost Int. It also gives at will invisibility with a good duration for surprise attacks.

The next template we add is multiheaded, which we’re using to gain 1 additional head, no need to be greedy. It grants more HD and superior multiweapon fighting, which is honestly a bit confusing, but I believe it means you would get a full attack with each hand, great for fighting with 2 weapons. Having two heads also means two bites, and improved initiative and combat reflexes are nice general perks.

The third template that we add is Shadow Creature, which gives grants evasion and total concealment in all but full daylight, making you hard to target or hit with AoEs. It also adds fast healing, which covers what regeneration cannot, and stacks great for extra healing.

In terms of feats, Martial Study grants Steel Wind, which is setup for Bloodstorm Blade and allows you to attack 2 adjacent foes if the party tries to flank you. Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder grants you continuous access to Amon’s Ram for 1d6 (maybe 1d8 since you’re large). It’s not clear whether having two heads means that you get two rams, but one is fine. It’ll be important later, but for now it’s another attack for the pile.
CR 10
We now have two levels of Duskblade, which provide some spells to add to offense. True Strike is always a good spell, and Blade of Blood is a great return on investment for a small amount of self-damage which you will quickly heal off. You have the ability to cast in light armor with no penalty so can make full use of your 45 ft movement speed, and the ranks you’ve invested in Concentration combined with Combat Casting and a high Constitution score mean you should have no problem casting defensively. We’re going to keep investing so that the party can’t throw you off with distracting spells.

Martial stance grants us punishing stance, which add damage to all attacks, and goes towards Bloodstorm Blade.
CR 15
Now the components of the build really fall together. Duskblade can now cast in Medium Armor, and we have sufficient ranks in tumble to move about without much problem. Duskblade’s Arcane Channeling allows you to deliver your spells through an attack, such as one of your natural weapons. Detach is an utterly hilarious feat that allows you to rip off a piece of your body and then chuck it at an enemy. What are we going to channel it into? One of our heads. “But you have to use it on a body part that delivers something other than a bite!” I hear you say. That’s what binding Amon is for, granting at least 1 ram attack so that the head is a viable target. “But Arcane Channeling is for melee attacks!” you chime in. That’s where Bloodstorm Blade enters. With Thunderous Throw you can treat the ranged attack as melee, so you can use your strength for attack and damage and everything works perfectly. You can then wait for your severed head to regrow, or you can burn a use of Steel Wind to make your head return, at which point you can hold it to the stump and it instantly reattaches. Because you have two heads, throwing one of them at the party is no problem.

There’s a few things that are unclear about tearing off your head and throwing it. Firstly is whether Amon’s sign stays with your head or whether it jumps to the remaining head. If it doesn’t, your head still has the bite to attack with, since it qualified when you threw it. The second question is whether your invisibility still applies to your head once you’ve flung it. I’m not sure, but either a head appearing from nowhere, or being struck by an invisible head that falls to the ground and appears is very funny.

The Spectral Skirmisher feat comes as a bonus, and works excellently with being invisible. Enemies take a penalty to listen against you (shadow creature helps out as well) but the more important benefit is that if they attack against your square you get an attack of opportunity against them. Now it’s possible that the party might have the ability to see invisibility, but remember shadow blend gives you total concealment in anything less than full daylight. Total concealment means that the party still has to attack your square even if they can see invisibility, so they still trigger an AoO. Combat Reflexes mean you’ll still have AoOs after you do it.
CR 20
Lightning Ricochet means that you no longer have to use up Steel Wind, and your head returns immediately. Duskblade spells give you several options for damage and paralysis, and mobility through spider climb to drop on the party, or dimension hop for jumping about the battlefield. Quick cast can make for a good use of true strike before you attack.

Your head-throwing is a very funny trick but it doesn’t have to be your sole means of attack. You’re still a big strong troll so you can superior twf and bring all your natural weapons to bear. To that end we’re adding another stance as an option. Dancing Blade Form extends your reach out to 15 feet on your turn so you can suddenly get at members who thought they were safe. If you have a reach weapon it gets even larger. Having a big reach like that will help make the party give you a wide berth to throw in.
Sources
Multiheaded Template, Detach: Savage Species
Shadow Creature: Lords of Madness
Primordial Giant: Secrets of Xendrik
Duskblade, Spectral Skirmisher: PHBII
Bloodstorm Blade, Martial Study, Martial Stance: Tome of Battle
Throw Anything: Complete Warrior
Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder: Tome of Magic
Troll, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting: srd
Hamarrtroll image: Age of Mythology

[Inevitability]

Is that Gouda I'm smelling?


The Fleichshriver Horror

No one knows where it came from. Some sages theorize that it was created in a spawning vat of the Abyss, most likely on the 88th layer (The Gaping Maw). These individuals speculate the beast was created by some mad servant of Demogorgon, to be used as a living weapon in the Blood War. The creature was virtually uncontrollable, and it escaped into our realm through an Abyssal portal before it could be destroyed.
Others postulate that it was birthed in our own world, an unholy abomination whose genesis was guided by the hand of some sinister archmage (possibly even Null himself). This legend agrees that the beast proved beyond the ability of its creator to contain, and has been a blight running amok in our lands ever since.
Whatever its source, most agree on one thing: the earliest reports of it seem to all originate in the Bandit Kingdoms, near Fleichshriver. Scores of heroes have faced it, and all have been destroyed.
The Fleichshriver Horror, as it has become known, is a juggernaut of destruction. A massive monstrosity with close to a dozen heads, bat-like wings and wicked claws. Sometimes it is said to wield a great blade of potent magic. The sound of its roar beings terror to the hearts of the stoutest warriors, and it is rumored that even if by some miracle someone were to slay it, it would return at the next dawn to wreak its terrible vengeance.

https://i9.dainikbhaskar.com/thumbnails/600x519/web2images/www.dailybhaskar.com/2017/01/27/ravana-1_1485518443.jpg
Huge Outsider (native), CE, Half-Fiend Multiheaded (ten heads) Phaerlin Giant Barbarian 1/Swordsage 8

Str 28, Dex 14, Con 38, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 18
Array: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha14; Racial: Str +10/+4, Dex -2/+4, Con +8/+2/+20, Int -2/+4, Wis -2, Cha -2/+2; HD/Levels: Str +1, Int +1, Cha +4



CR
HD
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


11
28d8
Outsider 28
+21
+16
+9
+9
Autohypnosis 15, Balance 5, Concentration 15, Jump 15, Listen 30, Sense Motive 15, Search 15, Speak Language (Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Infernal), Spellcraft 5, Spot 31, Tumble 5, Use Magic Device 15
Air Heritage (1), Endurance (3), Steadfast Determination (6), Power Attack (9), Improved Bullrush (12), Leap Attack (15), Shock Trooper (18), Epic Destiny - Eternal Hero (21, 24, 27)
+20 racial bonus to Listen/Search/Spot, +21 Natural Armor Bonus, 2 claws 2d4/10 bites 2d6, Darkvision 90 ft, DR 10/Magic, Fly, Frightful Presence, Immunity to Poison, Resistance to Acid 10/Cold 10/Electricity 10/Fire 10, Scent, Smite Good 1/day, SR 35


12
28d8+1d12
Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1
+22
+18
+9
+9
Listen 2, Jump 3
--
Illiteracy, Pounce, Rage 1/day


13
29d8+1d12
Swordsage 1
+22
+18
+11
+11
Spot 2, Jump 4, Listen 1
Epic Destiny
Quick to act +1, Discipline Focus {tiger claw} (weapon focus)


14
30d8+1d12
Swordsage 2
+23
+18
+12
+12
Spot 1, Jump 5, Listen 1
--
AC Bonus


15
31d8+1d12
Swordsage 3
+24
+19
+12
+12
Spot 1, Jump 5, Listen 1
--
--


16
32d8+1d12
Swordsage 4
+25
+19
+13
+13
Concentration 1, Spot 1, Jump 4, Listen 1
Fast Healing
Discipline Focus {diamond mind} (insightful strike)


17
33d8+1d12
Swordsage 5
+25
+19
+13
+13
Concentration 4, Spot 1, Jump 1, Listen 1
--
Quick to Act +2


18
34d8+1d12
Swordsage 6
+26
+20
+14
+14
Concentration 4, Spot 1, Jump 1, Listen 1
--
--


19
35d8+1d12
Swordsage 7
+27
+20
+14
+14
Concentration 4, Spot 1, Jump 1, Listen 1
Sudden Recovery
Sense Magic


20
36d8+1d12
Swordsage 8
+28
+20
+15
+15
Concentration 4, Spot 1, Jump 1, Listen 1
--
Discipline Focus {shadow blade} (defensive stance)





CR
Class(es)
IL
Maneuvers
Stances


13
Swordsage 1
15th
Action Before Thought, Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Diamond Defense, Disrupting Blow, Fountain of Blood
Hearing The Air


14
Swordsage 2
16th
Inferno Blade
Leaping Dragon Stance


15
Swordsage 3
17th
Feral Death Blow
-


16
Swordsage 4
18th
Time Stands Still
-


17
Swordsage 5
18th
Mountain Tombstone Strike
Stance of Alacrity


18
Swordsage 6
20th
Death in the Dark
-


19
Swordsage 7
21st
Shadow Blink
-


20
Swordsage 8
22nd
Prey on the Weak
-



The Fleichsriver Horror is a showcase of how wrong the CR system can be sometimes, especially with 3.0 material involved (both the Paherlin Gaint and Multiheaded templates are fairly under CR'd). Note to DMs: do not use this against an 11th level party. One Blasphemy later and every non-evil PC is obliterated. The "sweet spot" for this entry is CR 20: it's still an epic level threat, but at least a 20th level party will have some serious cheese of their own to fight with. Unless the DM wants to eyeball his own CRs, I would recommend the The Fleichshriver Horror as an exercise in TO only. Although a creative spellcaster might find a way around it's defenses...maybe. :smallamused:
The fluff presented above is Greyhawk based, but The Horror should slot easily into an Eberron or Forgotten Realms setting. It should probably fill a niche the same as the Tarrasque is supposed to: an unstoppable engine of destruction that the PCs will only face towards the end of a campaign.

CR 11: 28d8+392hp (518hp). Unarmed full attack routine: 2 claws +28 melee 2d4+9, 10 bites +23 melee 2d6+4 (as an outsider, it has full martial weapon proficiency, so it could use a huge falchion +28/+23/+18/+13 melee 3d6+13 (18-20/x2), 10 bites +23 melee 2d6+4). This is all before Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper is in the mix. It's "weakness" is a slow movement rate, but it can fly at 40 feet with average maneuverability. The SLAs are crazy (CL 28, likely to punch through any SR the party has): Blasphemy 1/day, Contagion 1/day, Darkness 3/day, Desecrate 1/day, Destruction 1/day, Horrid Wilting 1/day, Poison 3/day, Summon Monster IX (fiends only) 1/day, Unhallow 1/day, Unholy Aura 3/day & Unholy Blight 1/day. The creature is intelligent enough to use its attacks effectively. It would generally lead off with a roar to trigger Frightful Presence as a free action (on the off chance anything in the area is under 8HD), and follow up with a Blasphemy. If anything was still standing, it would charge in and demolish the enemies with devastating melee attacks. If it can prepare before a fight, it will summon a Barbed Devil or Hezrou that will stick around for almost 3 minutes, and hold the charge on a Poison SLA. SR 35 is going to make it hard to take down with spells, and it's Will save is pumped up by Steadfast Determination (Con to Will saves instead of Wis, and doesn't auto fail a Fort save on a 1). It's Listen and Spot checks (+52/+53) are going to foil most attempts at stealth. If the DM wants to be truly evil, throw in a wand or two for it to UMD (Scintillating Scales will make touch attacks very difficult, given a +21 natural armor bonus. Use this trick if someone starts summoning Allips or Shadows). Epic Destiny (Eternal Hero) gives some serious benefits: Continual Resurrection (like a Lich on steroids), Death Denied (it's saves are already pretty solid, but hey, why not), Quickening (have a bucket of temporary hit points each round) and Eternal Renewal (if the party manages to beat the Horror down - surprise!).

CR 15: There it is - Lion Totem Barbarian. You saw it coming, didn't you? Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper just got a whole lot scarier. Rage is only 1/day, but due to the massive Con modifier, will very likely last for a full combat. Again, the creature is canny enough not to Rage until it has used any SLAs or other actions requiring concentration first. Rage has the added benefit of further boosting Will saves (added Con for Steadfast Determination, and the innate +2 bonus from Raging). Swordsage maneuvers and stances are just icing on this cake (Feral Death Blow while raging - ouch!). The final level of Epic Destiny (Eternal Hero) kicks in here (it eats 4 epic level feat slots, but it's worth it IMHO):
- The Warrior (Su): Make a full attack as a standard action. A magic weapon with up to a +8 enhancement bonus and special properties equaling up to a total +5 bonus equivalent: +8 Ghost Touch Keen Lucky Stunning Surge Valorous weapon (falchion). Those pesky incorporeal opponents aren't so smug now, are they? Charge damage is ludicrous. Critical range 15-20.
- The Arcanist (Sp): Duplicate the effect of any 7th-level arcane spell from any class list. Limited Wish. Can't be beaten for utility as a 7th level spell (any Sor/Wiz spells of 6th or lower, any other spell of 5th or lower).
- The Disciple (Sp): Duplicate the effect of any 7th-level divine spell from any class list. Master Earth. Basically Teleport Without Error that can't be blocked by Dimension Lock or similar effects. If by some miracle The Horror is getting beaten, it slips away to use it's fast healing (which comes online at CR 16).
- The Traitor (Sp): Duplicate the effect of any 8th-level evil spell from any class list. You may choose up to three options for the traitor incarnation. That's right, three. Here's my personal picks: 1.) Create Greater Undead (The Horror starts creating undead monsters to plague the land. It doesn't care that it doesn't control them, it just sets them loose. This can be a plot arc for the party to investigate.). 2.) Spread of Savagery: turn the good (and neutral) guys against each other. 3.) Veil of Undeath: tasty, tasty immunities. Not like it needs them, but just in case PCs get creative.

CR 20: More of the same, but with higher level maneuvers and stances. Sudden Recovery can regain a 9th level maneuver in a jiff. Time Stands Still is pretty devastating, to say the least. Fast Healing isn't really necessary, but if for some reason the creature has to flee (via Master earth), it can come back at full hit points to carry on the fight.

Sources (non-core):
Air Heritage: Planar Handbook
Autohypnosis: XPH/online - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm
Epic Destiny: online - https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428
Fast Healing: ELH/online - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#fastHealing
Leap Attack: Complete Adventurer
Lion Totem Barbarian: Complete Champion
Lucky, Stunning Surge: Magic Item Compendium
Master Earth, Veil of Undeath - Spell Compendium
Multiheaded: Savage Species
Phaerlin Giant: Monster of Faerun
Scintillating Scales: Dragon Magic
Shock Trooper: Complete Warrior
Spread of Savagery: Book of Vile Darkness
Steadfast Determination: Player's Handbook 2
Swordsage, Sudden Recovery, maneuvers, stances: Tome of Battle
Valorous: Unapproachable East
PS - no offense intended with the image; I believe it falls into the same mythological category as nagas and rakshasa?

[Inevitability]

Quoth the raven; and the other raven... and that raven over there...



The Unkindness of Hextor

Hivemind Murder of Crows of Legend Cloistered Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Contemplative 2

https://img00.deviantart.net/351b/i/2010/052/1/e/murder_of_crows_by_drakarn91.jpg
Murder of Crows by Drakarn91




Stat
Base
Racial
Hivemind
Legendary
Final
Modifier


STR
8
-10
+0
+10
8
-1


DEX
12
+4
+0
+6
22
+6


CON
10
+0
+0
+10
20
+5


INT
14
-8
+4
+2
12
+1


WIS
15
+4
+0
+2
21
+5


CHA
13
-4
+11
+4
24
+7




Tiny Outsider(Swarm)
CR - 5
HD - 4d8 + 20
Initiative - +10
Speed - 40ft, Fly 70ft(Good)
AC - 24 (+2 Size, +6 Dex, +1 Insight, +5 Natural, +1 Untyped(Haste))
BAB - +3
Attack - Swarm(1d6)
Full Attack - Swarm(1d6)
Space/Reach - 10ft, 0ft
Special Attacks - Blinding (DC 22), Distraction(DC 21)
Special Qualities - Half Damage from slashing and piercing, Low Light Vision, Dark Vision 60ft, Swarm Traits,
Spells as a Level 2 Sorcerer, Spells as a level 5 Cleric, Vile Strike, Special Qualities (Enhanced Attributes, Haste),
Frightful Presence(DC 24), Breath Weapon(DC 21), Raging Blood
Saves - +12, +14, +9
Class Skills - +2 Spot, +3 Knowledge(Religion), +3 Knowledge(Arcana)
Feats - Improved Flight, Quicken Spell, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Multiattack




CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


5
Racial HD(4)
+3
+7
+7
+4
+6 Spot, +1 Knowledge(Religion), +1 Knowledge(Arcana), +2 Concentration
Quicken Spell, Improved Flight, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Multiattack
Half Damage from slashing and piercing, Low Light Vision, Dark Vision 60ft, Swarm Traits,
Spells as a Level 2 Sorcerer, Spells as a level 5 Cleric, Vile Strike, Special Qualities (Enhanced Attributes, Haste),
Frightful Presence(DC 24), Breath Weapon(DC 21), Raging Blood, +1 Wisdom


6
Cloistered Cleric 1
+3
+9
+7
+6
+6 Spot, +4 Knowledge(Religion), +4 Knowledge(Arcana), +3 Concentration
Spell Focus(Enchantment)(Bonus)
Domains(Knowledge, Domination, Tyranny), Rebuke Undead(11/day), Lore


7
Sorcerer 1
+3
+9
+7
+6
+6 Spot, +5 Knowledge(Religion), +5 Knowledge(Arcana), +4 Concentration
Divine Metamagic - Quicken Spell
Metamagic Specialist


8
Sorcerer 2
+4
+9
+7
+7
+6 Spot, +6 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +5 Concentration




9
Mystic Theurge 1
+4
+9
+7
+9
+6 Spot, +6 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +8 Concentration

+1 Wisdom


10
Mystic Theurge 2
+5
+9
+7
+10
+6 Spot, +6 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +11 Concentration
Retributive Spell



11
Mystic Theurge 3
+5
+10
+8
+10
+6 Spot, +6 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +13 Concentration, +1 SpellCraft




12
Mystic Theurge 4
+6
+10
+8
+11
+6 Spot, +6 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +14 Concentration, +3 SpellCraft




13
Mystic Theurge 5
+6
+10
+8
+11
+6 Spot, +6 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +15 Concentration, +5 SpellCraft
Persist Spell
+1 Wisdom


14
Mystic Theurge 6
+7
+11
+9
+12
+6 Spot, +6 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +16 Concentration, +5 SpellCraft




15
Mystic Theurge 7
+7
+11
+9
+12
+6 Spot, +7 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +17 Concentration, +6 SpellCraft




16
Mystic Theurge 8
+8
+11
+9
+13
+6 Spot, +9 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +18 Concentration, +6 SpellCraft
Divine Metamagic - Persist Spell



17
Mystic Theurge 9
+8
+12
+10
+13
+6 Spot, +11 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +19 Concentration, +6 SpellCraft

+1 Wisdom


18
Mystic Theurge 10
+9
+12
+10
+14
+6 Spot, +13 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +20 Concentration, +6 SpellCraft




19
Contemplative 1
+9
+12
+10
+16
+6 Spot, +13 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +21 Concentration, +8 SpellCraft
Extra Turning
Bonus Domain - Evil, Divine Health


19
Contemplative 2
+10
+12
+10
+17
+6 Spot, +13 Knowledge(Religion), +6 Knowledge(Arcana), +22 Concentration, +10 SpellCraft

Slippery Mind





Spells per Day


CR
Caster Lvl
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


5
5th
5
5+1
4+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-


6
6th
5
5+1
5+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
-


9
7th
6
6+1
5+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-


10
8th
6
6+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-


11
9th
6
6+1
6+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-


12
10th
6
6+1
6+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-


13
11th
6
7+1
6+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-


14
12th
6
7+1
6+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-


15
13th
6
7+1
7+1
6+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-


16
14th
6
7+1
7+1
6+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-


17
15th
6
7+1
7+1
7+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
1+1
-


18
16th
6
7+1
7+1
7+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
2+1
-


19
17th
6
7+1
7+1
7+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
2+1
1+1


20
18th
6
7+1
7+1
7+1
6+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1




Spells per Day


CR
Caster Lvl
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


5
2nd
6
6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
3rd
6
7
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8
4th
6
8
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9
5th
6
8
6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10
6th
6
8
7
4
-
-
-
-
-
-


11
7th
6
8
8
5
-
-
-
-
-
-


12
8th
6
8
8
6
4
-
-
-
-
-


13
9th
6
8
8
7
5
-
-
-
-
-


14
10th
6
8
8
8
6
4
-
-
-
-


15
11th
6
8
8
8
7
5
-
-
-
-


16
12th
6
8
8
8
7
6
4
-
-
-


17
13th
6
8
8
8
7
7
5
-
-
-


18
14th
6
8
8
8
7
7
6
4
-
-



Sorcerer Spells Known
0 - 9
1 - 5
2 - 5
3 - 4
4 - 4
5 - 3
6 - 2
7 - 1




There are some cites where the church is a true force for law, committed to giving the citizens order in their lives and keeping criminals from destabilizing society. In recent years the Church of Hextor in this city has fallen into disarray, they are no longer respected by the populace, and all disciple among the faithful is gone. Hextor has created the Unkindness to restore order to his church and among his faithful.
At this level the Unkindness serves as an effective guardian for the church itself, roosting in the rafters or the belltower. It has not yet begun to truly enforce the iron will of Hextor on the people of the church. At this point, the church should not be the focus of the campaign, just a interesting location or side quest. The Unkindness is just a strange guardian for the building, and will not chase people beyond the property.

Mechanically the unkindness is a swarm that can cast a bunch of spells, cleric 5 and sorcerer 2, and all of these spells have +4 to the save DC from the monster of legend template. Additionally the frightful presence ability has a DC of 24 at this level and leaves anyone shaken for as long as they remain in the presence of the Unkindness, making your effective DCs even higher. The swarm attack also includes blindness with a similarly high save DC and no attack roll required. At this level it is probably best to let the PCs flee from an encounter with the Unkindness.


The Unkindness has used a mixture of violence and magical domination to take over the church and bring discipline to the clergy and followers. It runs the show from its place in the rafters, using it's frightful presence to make the congregation more susceptible to various effects. At this point it has started recruiting for a police force sponsored by the church to maintain order in the neighborhood. It can also draw people to the church with it's spellcasting abilities, offering to heal and aid locals who worship Hextor.

Its got 4th level divine spells and 3rd level sorcerer spells, just fly through the players, attempting to blind them and cast spells. Plus at the beginning of each day, choose something to use with retributive metamagic, which will be cast whenever someone hits you with a melee attack. Your save DCs should still be pretty high between your high stats and the bonus from monster of legend. Don't forget to make them roll distraction saves if they start their turn in you square or try to cast spells.


The Fist of Hextor (or whatever you want to call the millitary arm of this church) has staged a coup, though perhaps not literally. Whether they control the official government or not, they are the town watch, they are the police, they are the inquistors. But the law and order they enforce has many benefits for the city folk, especially the poor. The crime rate has gone way down, there are fewer (non-sanctioned) murders, and people generally have enough to survive. The nobles would be most upset about this and may hire the PCs to more actively oppose the church (or the PCs can decide for themselves obviously). Feel free to draw inspiration from real world examples.

Casting as a cleric 13, and Sorcerer 11, not bad. Now you can use a mix of Divine Metamagic and Metamagic specialist to quicken spells to get more off each round. One trick, because you have a breath weapon from Monster of Legend, is to put dispelling breath on it, and dispel whatever buffs the PCs have put on themselves in preparation for the fight.


At this point the church, lead by the Unkindness, has a iron grip on the region.

Casting as a cleric 18, and Sorcerer 14, yeah 9th level spells! Also Divine metamagic - persist is a handy option to have. Same deal as always, keep making them save or loose against spells, swarm abilities and blindness.



Depending on how you read the hivemind template, your sorcerer level may increase with additional hit dice from class levels, which would be real good for this build. If this is true you only need to take one level of sorcerer instead of two and can go right into Mystic Theurge, and eventually get arcane and divine 9th level spells. I went with the more conservative reading, but in a high op game, this build would definitely gain some solid benefits from a more generous interpretation.
Also depending on how you read the blind ability on the murder of crows, this could apply to any damage they do, including spells. If you feel this is how the rule works, grab some more blasting spells, and go to town.


Complete Adventurer - Improved Flight
Tome of Magic - Swarm, Murder of Crows
Player's Handbook II - Metamagic Specialist ACF
Monster Manual 2 - Monster of Legend
Book of Vile Darkness Web Enhancement - Hivemind Swarm
Complete Divine - Divine Metamagic, Domination Domain, Contemplative
Complete Mage - Retributive Spell
Complete Warrior - Tyranny Domain
SRD - Cloistered Cleric, Mystic Theurge
Deities and Demigods - Persist Spell

[Inevitability]

That ought to be all: do tell me if I've missed anything.

[WeaselGuy]

Some pretty nifty ones here. I had considered a swarm at one point, and Dvati should have been a "duh" moment for me, so that was an "ahhh" reaction. My plan (that, of course, I didn't finish) was an Ettin Hulking Hurler. I just didn't know how to finish him up or give him depth.

[daremetoidareyo]

What great entries!

[Thurbane]

Nice entries everyone! A good field without being a daunting number for judges.

I also considered a Nagahydra (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=4) entry, but at CR 18, there wasn't much room for customization.

[GrayDeath]

Heh, so my 5 headed Dragon (one each of White, Blue, Black, Red and Green, in that Order^^) would NOT have been overdone?

Curses....or not, as aside from finding no clear rule on if that would have been possible (with the Multiheaded template being as it is) AND the fact all I ould have left would have been ONE CLass level...it would have sucked against most of these anyway.

But the stacked Breath Weapons, ah ...sigh.


Addendum: I expected 22 entries (double the usual number^^)....

[Deadline]

I was surprised to not see a Skull Lord, which would have been the basis for my entry. But a good crop all around. Not terribly surprise to see multiple Dvati entries, but multiple Monsters of Legend is fairly interesting. I do love the Monster of Legend template (I used it in the Master of the Frozen Tundra round for Krampus), I just wish it wasn't so restrictive on which creature types can use it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was surprised to not see a Skull Lord, which would have been the basis for my entry. But a good crop all around. Not terribly surprise to see multiple Dvati entries, but multiple Monsters of Legend is fairly interesting. I do love the Monster of Legend template (I used it in the Master of the Frozen Tundra round for Krampus), I just wish it wasn't so restrictive on which creature types can use it.

Am I missing something? I count one dvati (although Masamune had me briefly fooled).

[Thurbane]

Taman and Thoron: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425409&postcount=61) Monster of Legend Dvati Conjuror 2/Ruathar 3/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5
Boney Bonnie: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425419&postcount=62) Awakened Skeleton 12-headed Pyrohydra Warhulk 10/Warlock 4
Masa and Mune: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425426&postcount=63) Symbiotic Human Soulknife 4/Warblade 7/Warmind 7/Fighter 1//Feat Rogue 4/Cobra Strike Monk 2/Skilled City Dweller Fighter 2/Skilled City Dweller Psychic Warrior 1/Elocator 3/Fortune’s Friend 5
Aperantos: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425434&postcount=64) Yuan-ti Anathema Binder 2
Chuck and Rufus: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425436&postcount=65) Shadow Multiheaded Primordial Giant Troll Duskblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Duskblade 8
The Fleichshriver Horror: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425440&postcount=66) Half-Fiend Multiheaded (ten heads) Phaerlin Giant Barbarian 1/Swordsage 8
The Unkindness of Hextor: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425446&postcount=67) Hivemind Murder of Crows of Legend Cloistered Cleric 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Contemplative 2



Entry
Creator
Judge 1
Judge 2
Judge 3
Total
Ranking


Taman and Thoron
???
-
-
-
-
-


Boney Bonnie
???
-
-
-
-
-


Masa and Mune
???
-
-
-
-
-


Aperantos
???
-
-
-
-
-


Chuck and Rufus
???
-
-
-
-
-


The Fleichshriver Horror
???
-
-
-
-
-


The Unkindness of Hextor
???
-
-
-
-
-



...I'm already torn between two entries for my Honorable Mention. I'll say it again: great entries this round!

[Deadline]

Am I missing something? I count one dvati (although Masamune had me briefly fooled).

Nope, I missed that Masamune wasn't Dvati. :smallsmile:

[danielxcutter]

I'd considered a Symbiotic Creature too, honestly, so I'm surprised that there's only one entry like that. Though in my case, I was considering a Giant Crab(yes, that Damn Crab) advanced to Huge size as a host, with some sort of humanoid creature as the guest. Symbiotic Creatures are Abberations, so it would have qualified for (Improved) Rapidstrike. Probably would have had a level of Ranger with the Arcane Hunter ACF, since it would have been the result of a deranged arcanist... From there though, I wasn't sure what to do next and I was lazy, so that's all I managed to come up with. :smallannoyed:

[Thurbane]

I was kind of expecting a Vestigial Twin (DMG2 p.160) caster build. An extra spell per round for CR +2.


I was surprised to not see a Skull Lord, which would have been the basis for my entry.

I had a look at Skull Lord at one point when this theme was first mentioned. I think I fooled around with a Skull Lord/Beguiler X/Ur-Priest X/Mystic Theurge X concept.


I'd considered a Symbiotic Creature too, honestly, so I'm surprised that there's only one entry like that. Though in my case, I was considering a Giant Crab(yes, that Damn Crab) advanced to Huge size as a host, with some sort of humanoid creature as the guest. Symbiotic Creatures are Abberations, so it would have qualified for (Improved) Rapidstrike. Probably would have had a level of Ranger with the Arcane Hunter ACF, since it would have been the result of a deranged arcanist... From there though, I wasn't sure what to do next and I was lazy, so that's all I managed to come up with. :smallannoyed:

That sounds like a pretty amazing entry.

[danielxcutter]

That sounds like a pretty amazing entry.

This is me right now:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/KI9oNS4JBemyI/200.webp#10-grid1

[Technetium43]

Great builds this time, very interesting assortment, and no too conceptually close builds to muddy the waters. This one was actually kinda difficult because there were so MANY ideas, but eventually one of them just sort of... wrote itself. Also:


I'd considered a Symbiotic Creature too, honestly, so I'm surprised that there's only one entry like that. Though in my case, I was considering a Giant Crab(yes, that Damn Crab) advanced to Huge size as a host, with some sort of humanoid creature as the guest. Symbiotic Creatures are Abberations, so it would have qualified for (Improved) Rapidstrike. Probably would have had a level of Ranger with the Arcane Hunter ACF, since it would have been the result of a deranged arcanist... From there though, I wasn't sure what to do next and I was lazy, so that's all I managed to come up with. :smallannoyed:

I actually had a really similar idea to this, using Symbiotic Creature with a Siege Crab to make Canzar.

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonquest/images/5/5b/DQMJ2_-_Canzar.png/revision/latest?cb=20151221052158

Unfortunately I couldn't find anything 'slimy' enough with the type limitations, and I wasn't even sure if 'chilling in the mouth of another being' counts as being a separate head.

[danielxcutter]

I actually had a really similar idea to this, using Symbiotic Creature with a Siege Crab to make Canzar.

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonquest/images/5/5b/DQMJ2_-_Canzar.png/revision/latest?cb=20151221052158

Unfortunately I couldn't find anything 'slimy' enough with the type limitations, and I wasn't even sure if 'chilling in the mouth of another being' counts as being a separate head.

Okay, I honestly sniggered at that image. Where's it from?

[Technetium43]

Okay, I honestly sniggered at that image. Where's it from?

It's from the Dragon Quest spinoff series Dragon Quest Monsters and it's literally just a giant one of these sweet slimy boys:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonquest/images/6/69/DQVIII_-_Slime.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20151121125212

piloting a giant crab mecha. It is never explained, nor is it plot relevant. Oh and also it's like... actually D&D Gargantuan is a pretty good size estimate for how big it is.

[danielxcutter]

It's from the Dragon Quest spinoff series Dragon Quest Monsters and it's literally just a giant one of these sweet slimy boys:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonquest/images/6/69/DQVIII_-_Slime.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20151121125212

piloting a giant crab mecha. It is never explained, nor is it plot relevant. Oh and also it's like... actually D&D Gargantuan is a pretty good size estimate for how big it is.

What. Just. What.

[White Blade]

I had a Multiheaded Pyro Roc of Legend that was the incarnation of a volcano. I used Metabreath to turn its heads into massive firestorms. But I couldn't find an appropriate deity for it.

[WhamBamSam]

I was mucking around with a Multi-headed Dragon optimizing around multiple native breath weapons and multiple breaths from the Firestride Exhalation spell. I wanted to use Firestride Exhalation to Shadow Pounce into a full attack with Improved Rapidstrike Bites, but fitting the requisite amount of Telflammar Shadowlord was turning out to be too much. Also multiple breath weapon blasts just wasn't as fun when there's a niggling voice in the back of my head whining about how cool a Cobalt Dragon's (Dragon Magazine 357) bull rush breath with intersecting Lingering Breath blasts pushing the victims of one into the other would be. I played with a Hoarder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307b) Shadow Dragon briefly to make half of the Firestride Exhalation damage bludgeoning, add some negative level synergy to the bite attacks, and mix in some "two-headed coin" fluff to the mix, but the CR adjustments ended up being a bit too much.

[NontheistCleric]

I was kind of expecting a Vestigial Twin (DMG2 p.160) caster build. An extra spell per round for CR +2.

I was going to do that with a Warlock. A Tomb Mote Warlock. With Quickness, the thing gets three SLAs a round and still has a move action. Four with Quicken SLA thrown in. It wouldn't quite make it to 9th-level spells, but it could get more HD than CR, allowing it to take the epic Warlock feat that gives Shades as an at-will SLA.

Vestigial Twin, I found out, actually doesn't work so well with casters, because the twin can only cast spells that have a verbal component and nothing else. It doesn't really make sense, since the twin can apparently have an arm for itself, but that's D&D designers for you.

[Gruftzwerg]

Didn't had the time to make an entry but I'll post my base idea cause it just seems so silly/wrong somehow^^:

I was thinking about a Double-headed Beholder Mage^^ (maybe with early entry into BM). Goes into the epic lvls (unless early entry cheese) and is a beast imho.
The big deals are that after sacrificing one of your central eyes, you still got the other.
Further you have 2x10 eye rays. This makes the 10th lvl of beholder mage extremely powerful. From BM 1-9 you sacrifice one eye ray each lvl to get a spell-stalk for the new spell lvl (1-9). At lvl 10 BM all your remaining eye rays turn into spell-stalks, which means you can designate the lvls for your remaining 11 eye rays..^^ (wanna cast 12 lvl-9 spells /round???)

If you want to go silly, you could give him a monks tattoo to enhance his unarmed combat with Arcane Hands. Cause since your spellcasting is always a free action with your (20!) spell-stalks, you can spend your actions into Full-Attacks. A bit weak due to low Str score for Arcane Hands, but extra attacks are still extra attacks. Add multiattack, twf feats and combat reflexes for even more attacks.

Otherwise just stick to some metamagic feats or something else what fits your caster role more.

[daremetoidareyo]

Didn't had the time to make an entry but I'll post my base idea cause it just seems so silly/wrong somehow^^:

I was thinking about a Double-headed Beholder Mage^^ (maybe with early entry into BM). Goes into the epic lvls (unless early entry cheese) and is a beast imho.
The big deals are that after sacrificing one of your central eyes, you still got the other.
Further you have 2x10 eye rays. This makes the 10th lvl of beholder mage extremely powerful. From BM 1-9 you sacrifice one eye ray each lvl to get a spell-stalk for the new spell lvl (1-9). At lvl 10 BM all your remaining eye rays turn into spell-stalks, which means you can designate the lvls for your remaining 11 eye rays..^^ (wanna cast 12 lvl-9 spells /round???)

If you want to go silly, you could give him a monks tattoo to enhance his unarmed combat with Arcane Hands. Cause since your spellcasting is always a free action with your (20!) spell-stalks, you can spend your actions into Full-Attacks. A bit weak due to low Str score for Arcane Hands, but extra attacks are still extra attacks. Add multiattack, twf feats and combat reflexes for even more attacks.

Otherwise just stick to some metamagic feats or something else what fits your caster role more.

That's great! Shame it's not in the running.

[NontheistCleric]

Didn't had the time to make an entry but I'll post my base idea cause it just seems so silly/wrong somehow^^:

I was thinking about a Double-headed Beholder Mage^^ (maybe with early entry into BM). Goes into the epic lvls (unless early entry cheese) and is a beast imho.
The big deals are that after sacrificing one of your central eyes, you still got the other.
Further you have 2x10 eye rays. This makes the 10th lvl of beholder mage extremely powerful. From BM 1-9 you sacrifice one eye ray each lvl to get a spell-stalk for the new spell lvl (1-9). At lvl 10 BM all your remaining eye rays turn into spell-stalks, which means you can designate the lvls for your remaining 11 eye rays..^^ (wanna cast 12 lvl-9 spells /round???)

If you want to go silly, you could give him a monks tattoo to enhance his unarmed combat with Arcane Hands. Cause since your spellcasting is always a free action with your (20!) spell-stalks, you can spend your actions into Full-Attacks. A bit weak due to low Str score for Arcane Hands, but extra attacks are still extra attacks. Add multiattack, twf feats and combat reflexes for even more attacks.

Otherwise just stick to some metamagic feats or something else what fits your caster role more.

Unfortunately, a beholder does not have a head, which most of the templates that increase a creature's number of heads require in the first place. It only has a body that looks like a head. So what you're describing would not work, at least in the sense of doing what you want it to.

[Inevitability]

If I hadn't been the chairman, I probably would have submitted an anthropomorphic bat swarm with levels in druid. A nightmare at low levels because of flight and immunity to weapon attacks, a nightmare at high levels because full casting.


Also, a swarm that wild shapes is still a swarm, and therefore enjoys immunity to most save-or-lose spells.

[WhamBamSam]

Didn't had the time to make an entry but I'll post my base idea cause it just seems so silly/wrong somehow^^:

I was thinking about a Double-headed Beholder Mage^^ (maybe with early entry into BM). Goes into the epic lvls (unless early entry cheese) and is a beast imho.
The big deals are that after sacrificing one of your central eyes, you still got the other.
Further you have 2x10 eye rays. This makes the 10th lvl of beholder mage extremely powerful. From BM 1-9 you sacrifice one eye ray each lvl to get a spell-stalk for the new spell lvl (1-9). At lvl 10 BM all your remaining eye rays turn into spell-stalks, which means you can designate the lvls for your remaining 11 eye rays..^^ (wanna cast 12 lvl-9 spells /round???)

If you want to go silly, you could give him a monks tattoo to enhance his unarmed combat with Arcane Hands. Cause since your spellcasting is always a free action with your (20!) spell-stalks, you can spend your actions into Full-Attacks. A bit weak due to low Str score for Arcane Hands, but extra attacks are still extra attacks. Add multiattack, twf feats and combat reflexes for even more attacks.

Otherwise just stick to some metamagic feats or something else what fits your caster role more.The CR adjustment for a Multi-headed Beholder could be pretty brutal, depending on whether the eye rays count as distinct head based special attacks.

[Gruftzwerg]

Unfortunately, a beholder does not have a head, which most of the templates that increase a creature's number of heads require in the first place. It only has a body that looks like a head. So what you're describing would not work, at least in the sense of doing what you want it to.

Hm arguable imho but you have a good point. Imho we work with the regular definition of "head". And while the beholder rule text always refers to his "body" and not "head", it still looks like a head as you said. So you could say his body counts as head imho.

I was already picturing him as some kind of Rayman due to the Arcane Hands. Would have made a really silly appearance.

maybe it was good that I didn't invested/wasted the time with the build since it's questionable :p

[Technetium43]

Hm arguable imho but you have a good point. Imho we work with the regular definition of "head". And while a beholder rule text always refers to his "body" and not "head", it still looks like a head as you said. So you could say it body counts as head imho.

I was already picturing him as some kind of Rayman due to the Arcane Hands. Would have made a really silly appearance.

maybe it was good that I didn't invested/wasted the time with the build since it's questionable :p

Well, at least one good thing has come of this, I really want to make an optimized beholder mage exclusively built towards making the nastiest bite attacks possible, and make Pac-Man.

[NontheistCleric]

The CR adjustment for a Multi-headed Beholder could be pretty brutal, depending on whether the eye rays count as distinct head based special attacks.

Again, I feel the need to point out that a beholder does not even qualify for Multi-headed.

It's also not 'questionable' whether the body counts as a head simply because it looks like one. It simply doesn't. Quite apart from the fact that the beholder's body is explicitly described as a body, a head is something that is discernibly separate from the rest of the body. That is not something that a beholder has.

[Gruftzwerg]

The CR adjustment for a Multi-headed Beholder could be pretty brutal, depending on whether the eye rays count as distinct head based special attacks.

That wouldn't have been a problem. The eye rays are a single ability (bold written), while the single eye ray abilities are just part of that ability. So it should count as single special head-related ability and thus would have been a +3CR for double headed (+2 base +1 for the eye rays).

Beholder CR 13 + 3 = CR 16 without any BM lvls.

[Gruftzwerg]

Again, I feel the need to point out that a beholder does not even qualify for Multi-headed.

It's also not 'questionable' whether the body counts as a head simply because it looks like one. It simply doesn't. Quite apart from the fact that the beholder's body is explicitly described as a body, a head is something that is discernibly separate from the rest of the body. That is not something that a beholder has.

Would you say the same thing to a flying skull I would like to know?

Cause as said, Heads aren't really defined in terms of 3.5 .

And on such abstract creatures as beholders it's hard to tell wether or not its body counts as head. Imho DM decision, and since this is about NPC/enemies, WE ARE THE DM (interpret this as you like^^).

[NontheistCleric]

Would you say the same thing to a flying skull I would like to know?

Cause as said, Heads aren't really defined in terms of 3.5 .

And on such abstract creatures as beholders it's hard to tell wether or not its body counts as head. Imho DM decision, and since this is about NPC/enemies, WE ARE THE DM (interpret this as you like^^).

Well, at least for the purposes of the Multi-headed template, a beholder does not count since it does not have a 'discernible head'. In the case of a flying skull, it would probably count if the skull had at least at some point served as a head for a more complete being. If not, although it may look like a head, it isn't really. Remember that even if there is no rules definition (although I haven't looked into it yet so there may be some rules that support this), the meaning of 'head' in English still matters. And if we go by that, a beholder doesn't have a head either.

True, a DM might decide to let a beholder count as having a head if they wanted to. But that would probably go into the realm of DM fiat. Also, in this competition it's not really the competitors that are the DMs but rather the judges, since if they feel something is illegal they will penalize it.

[Technetium43]

And this entire discussion is why I went with something unambiguous. :smalltongue:

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho the question is, what is a "discernible head"?

a) Does it needs to be attached to a body to be a head?
or
b) Does just having facial features (eyes, mouth ..) already qualify for being a head?

I would go for "b". But as said, I can see other DMs or judges as you deciding the other way.


edit: odd example..
how about a squid. It's body is normally referred to as "head". Exchange the body with the sphere of a beholder and the tentacles with the eye rays. Maybe you are fine with this analogy

[Thurbane]

The ruling could go either way on a Beholder being eligible for Multi-headed, but if I had to cast a vote, I think I'd have to go with the "no discernible head" POV.

[NontheistCleric]

Imho the question is, what is a "discernible head"?

a) Does it needs to be attached to a body to be a head?
or
b) Does just having facial features (eyes, mouth ..) already qualify for being a head?

I would go for "b". But as said, I can see other DMs or judges as you deciding the other way.

A gibbering mouther fits your criteria for being a head. Yet, no other sane person I know would call it a head.


how about a squid. It's body is normally referred to as "head". Exchange the body with the sphere of a beholder and the tentacles with the eye rays. Maybe you are fine with this analogy

But you see, even you have put the word 'head' in inverted commas. That shows that despite all your claims, you know that it is not really a head. It is a body. That's all there is to it.

[Gruftzwerg]

But you see, even you have put the word 'head' in inverted commas. That shows that despite all your claims, you know that it is not really a head. It is a body. That's all there is to it.

No that was not my intention with the inverted commas.
Try to google for squid head recipe and see that I know that it is a head in common interpretation. I can confirm this for two other languages (German + Turkish).

How is your position now?

[ben-zayb]

I was surprised to not see a Skull Lord, which would have been the basis for my entry. But a good crop all around. Not terribly surprise to see multiple Dvati entries, but multiple Monsters of Legend is fairly interesting. I do love the Monster of Legend template (I used it in the Master of the Frozen Tundra round for Krampus), I just wish it wasn't so restrictive on which creature types can use it.
I thought this was a good round to experiment on the Skull Lord Serpentir, but RL just wouldn't allow me to.

[NontheistCleric]

No that was not my intention with the inverted commas.
Try to google for squid head recipe and see that I know that it is a head in common interpretation. I can confirm this for two other languages (German + Turkish).

How is your position now?

Whatever the squid's body may be known as colloquially does not make it that thing. Calling it a head does not change the fact that by all traditional systems of classifying body parts, it is in fact a body and the head is actually the small part that has all the tentacles attached to it.

[ArendK]

I had a Multiheaded Pyro Roc of Legend that was the incarnation of a volcano. I used Metabreath to turn its heads into massive firestorms. But I couldn't find an appropriate deity for it.

Kossuth (FR), the Fury (I'm a little rusty on Eberron deities), Ymeri (Golarion)

That was one concept I toyed around with too when I was thinking about my own design. Well, using lightning instead of fire, but still same general concept.

[NontheistCleric]

Ymeri (Golarion)

Not for this competition, though.

[ArendK]

In my limited analysis of the builds (I'm at work, and not fully up to speed with some of the design options in play like the binders without books in front of me); here's my unofficial judging (not off scores or overall power, just flavor, concept, and basic design) based off my favorites.

The Unkindness of Hextor (honestly, that's frigging cool hand down); I'm hijacking this concept at some point for my campaign in Pathfinder. I don't know for what exactly, but it will be glorious.
The Fleischriver Horror- When I think of ungodly terrors, I don't think of Giants with 10 heads. I do now.
Boney Bonnie- I loved the sheer power and the fluff of this thing. Not the most dangerous of the bunch, but not every foe has to be the master manipulator/world ending monstrosity we love. Sometimes we just need a Big Scary Monster that will eat you. And the person next to you. And the guy behind him. And that guy 30 feet behind you wiggling his fingers.
Taman and Thoron- 1 Gish is agitating. 2 Gishes even more so. WONDERFUL!
Chuck and Rufus-I was guilty of just glancing over the concept before going "meh!" thinking it was just going to be a gish/initiator build. Then I realized I was just being a douche. I was about in tears at work laughing about this thing. I loved it; not the most practical, but awesome fluff and creativity.
Masa and Mune- I like the fluff and concept; not knowing all the rules behind symbiotic and the PLETHORA of classes used makes my brain hurt.
Asperantos- I like the concept. Only two knocks I really have against it is the binder (not really a knock, just unfamiliarity so I can't judge it fairly) and 80% of the CR comes from the race.

[shaikujin]

Regarding the Beholder head debate, I'd rule that it has a head and qualifies for multi-headed.

I'm basing this on the rules for a Beholder's magic item slots.
In Lord of Madness pg 45, The Beholder has a slot for magic hats/helmets, but no slot for magical suits of armor/shirts.

[NontheistCleric]

Regarding the Beholder head debate, I'd rule that it has a head and qualifies for multi-headed.

I'm basing this on the rules for a Beholder's magic item slots.
In Lord of Madness pg 45, The Beholder has a slot for magic hats/helmets, but no slot for magical suits of armor/shirts.

The rules on what magic items aberrations can wear are based solely on whether their bodies can accommodate them, not whether they possess a direct analogue to the body part the magic item would be worn on by a human. This is quite evident from the book itself; to take tsochari as an example, one would not say that they must possess hands and fingers because they can wear rings.

[Blue Jay]

A gibbering mouther fits your criteria for being a head. Yet, no other sane person I know would call it a head.

A gibbering mouther is also specifically called out as being Amorphous, meaning it lacks discernible anatomy; so I think the "specific trumps general" rule undermines that example.

I feel like any attempt to rigidly define what counts as a "discernible head" is overly pedantic and misses the point of the template. To me, a multi-headed beholder makes sense: I can easily imagine what it looks like and what the template would do for it, so I wouldn't have a problem with it. I might rule that it wouldn't get extra eyestalks, though: just an extra bite and anti-magic eye.

---

One of the most interesting things about this competition was that I interpreted it very narrowly. In my mind, a "proper" entry was a hydra or amphisbaena or Multi-Headed creature. Swarms and Dvati and symbionts didn't even cross my mind. I'm always too self-conscious to enter competitions like this, but my first thought was to build a half-dragon fire elemental with the Multi-Headed template (I think the link to the "Burn Baby Burn" competition caught my eye a little, as something I wish I hadn't missed).

Someday I might work up the courage to enter a competition like this.

[ArendK]

One of the most interesting things about this competition was that I interpreted it very narrowly. In my mind, a "proper" entry was a hydra or amphisbaena or Multi-Headed creature. Swarms and Dvati and symbionts didn't even cross my mind. I'm always too self-conscious to enter competitions like this, but my first thought was to build a half-dragon fire elemental with the Multi-Headed template (I think the link to the "Burn Baby Burn" competition caught my eye a little, as something I wish I hadn't missed).

Someday I might work up the courage to enter a competition like this.

That's deliciously evil.

[NontheistCleric]

I feel like any attempt to rigidly define what counts as a "discernible head" is overly pedantic and misses the point of the template. To me, a multi-headed beholder makes sense: I can easily imagine what it looks like and what the template would do for it, so I wouldn't have a problem with it. I might rule that it wouldn't get extra eyestalks, though: just an extra bite and anti-magic eye.

If you run the kind of game where rprerequisites and requirements take a back seat to what you feel is interesting and fun, that's fine. Feel free to fiat to whatever you like in your own game.

However, we are talking about this beholder head issue in the context of a competition that is built on following the rules strictly (at least in theory). Defining what the rules of a particular template mean is a valid discussion, because it helps those who participate in the competition follow the rules. After all, it's not like this is the first time Multiheaded has come up in this competition, and it's unlikely to be the last.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you run the kind of game where rprerequisites and requirements take a back seat to what you feel is interesting and fun, that's fine. Feel free to fiat to whatever you like in your own game.

However, we are talking about this beholder head issue in the context of a competition that is built on following the rules strictly (at least in theory). Defining what the rules of a particular template mean is a valid discussion, because it helps those who participate in the competition follow the rules. After all, it's not like this is the first time Multiheaded has come up in this competition, and it's unlikely to be the last.

k, I'll give it another try than^^

here is what Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_(disambiguation))tells us about "heads":

The head is the part of an animal that usually includes the brain, eyes, ears, nose, and mouth.

There is no mention that the head needs to be attached to a body/torso in that definition. Imho this indicated that there are heads where this ain't the chase, like with squids and beholders.

As further evidence that it ain't just colloquially a head, have a look at wikipedia about Squid#Heads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid#Head)

As far as I see it, you just need facial features + a brain to count as head. And beholders would qualify into this definition in the same way as squids do.

[Thurbane]

I think it's fair to say, like large chunks of 3E, the designers could have worded the template a little better.

There's a decent case to be made either way for a Beholder, IMHO. Like I said earlier, I'd probably rule against it in my games.

But like most RAW/RAI/RAMS debates, or internet debates in general, most people are going to walk away believing exactly what they did at the start of the debate. :smalltongue:

If it were allowed, I imagine it's body configuration would look something like this:

http://static.ipaustralia.com.au/store3/3/19/319234.1.high.jpg

[Blue Jay]

If you run the kind of game where rprerequisites and requirements take a back seat to what you feel is interesting and fun, that's fine. Feel free to fiat to whatever you like in your own game.

However, we are talking about this beholder head issue in the context of a competition that is built on following the rules strictly (at least in theory). Defining what the rules of a particular template mean is a valid discussion, because it helps those who participate in the competition follow the rules. After all, it's not like this is the first time Multiheaded has come up in this competition, and it's unlikely to be the last.

My position is that this isn't a rules issue at all, and shouldn't be treated like one. I feel like this discussion about multi-headed beholders is trying to define something that the rules don't define. That's not "following the rules strictly": that's making new rules. The bottom line is that there are no clearly-defined criteria for deciding what does and does not count as a "discernible head," especially when it comes to creatures with highly abnormal body plans. So, a strict reading of the prereq would conclude that the prereq is open to interpretation in some situations; and that's how it should be incorporated into a contest like this.

But, maybe now I'm just being too big for my "dwarf in the playground" breeches.

[Gruftzwerg]

If it were allowed, I imagine it's body configuration would look something like this:

http://static.ipaustralia.com.au/store3/3/19/319234.1.high.jpg

where would you place the central eyes? opposite sides or same side?^^

I would be for the same side, than go BM and fluff it into a pirate beholder :smallbiggrin: *arrrrgh*

[Thurbane]

This might be a better image to explain what I was thinking:

https://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms2/img/pokedex/full/110.png

[NontheistCleric]

My position is that this isn't a rules issue at all, and shouldn't be treated like one. I feel like this discussion about multi-headed beholders is trying to define something that the rules don't define. That's not "following the rules strictly": that's making new rules. The bottom line is that there are no clearly-defined criteria for deciding what does and does not count as a "discernible head," especially when it comes to creatures with highly abnormal body plans. So, a strict reading of the prereq would conclude that the prereq is open to interpretation in some situations; and that's how it should be incorporated into a contest like this.

But, maybe now I'm just being too big for my "dwarf in the playground" breeches.

It is following the rules strictly. What the rule says is that a creature must have a discernible head to qualify for the template. A beholder does not have a discernible head. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter how abnormal a creature's body plan is, the only issue is whether or not it has a head.

And I don't see how your forum rank should come into this at all. I'm a Halfling, after all.


k, I'll give it another try than^^

here is what Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_(disambiguation))tells us about "heads":

If you go further into the Wikipedia article about heads, though, (not that Wikipedia is the most reliable source in the first place) you will see that it describes heads as being differentiated from a creature's main body. This is not something a beholder has. The introductory sentence only says that because it is assuming you are looking at heads in the context of real-world animals, and there is no example of an animal being a disembodied head in real life.


There is no mention that the head needs to be attached to a body/torso in that definition. Imho this indicated that there are heads where this ain't the chase, like with squids and beholders.

As further evidence that it ain't just colloquially a head, have a look at wikipedia about Squid#Heads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid#Head)

As far as I see it, you just need facial features + a brain to count as head. And beholders would qualify into this definition in the same way as squids do.

Okay, you clearly have a fundamentally incorrect conception of squid anatomy. Let me tell you now, the head is that little part up front with the tentacles and the beak and eyes. It is an appendage distinct from the body, which is the large fleshy bit behind it, also known as the mantle. A squid is not just a huge head, that is simply wrong.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you go further into the Wikipedia article about heads, though, (not that Wikipedia is the most reliable source in the first place) you will see that it describes heads as being differentiated from a creature's main body. This is not something a beholder has. The introductory sentence only says that because it is assuming you are looking at heads in the context of real-world animals, and there is no example of an animal being a disembodied head in real life.


where do you got that from? could you quote/link it pls?

all I've found so far is this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head):

A head is the part of an organism which usually includes the eyes, ears, nose and mouth, each of which aid in various sensory functions such as sight, hearing, smell, and taste, respectively. Some very simple animals may not have a head, but many bilaterally symmetric forms do. Heads develop in animals by an evolutionary trend known as cephalization. In bilaterally symmetrical animals, nervous tissues concentrate at the anterior region, forming structures responsible for information processing. Through biological evolution, sense organs and feeding structures also concentrate into the anterior region; these collectively form the head.

As far as I see it, beholder would qualify for this definition. I can't seem to find any part that would demand that heads "need to be differentiated from the creatures main body". If you can point me to the text where this requirement stands, I would be happy.

[NontheistCleric]

As far as I see it, beholder would qualify for this definition. I can't seem to find any part that would demand that heads "need to be differentiated from the creatures main body". If you can point me to the text where this requirement stands, I would be happy.

The keyword is 'cephalization'. It has its own article, which is worth checking out. Basically, an organism evolves a head through cephalization, which is the concentration of of nervous tissue (and also things such as mouths and sense organs) at one end of the organism. This then becomes known as the head. Even though a beholder may resemble a head, it does not have these things concentrated in any particular part of its body (it has eyes everywhere, tympanic membranes distributed randomly, etc.). Therefore it cannot be said to itself have a head.

Official dictionary definitions also support this, as seen below.

Merriam-Webster: 'the upper or anterior division of the animal body that contains the brain, the chief sense organs, and the mouth'

Here it is clearly stated that the head is divided from the rest of the body.

Oxford: 'The upper part of the human body, or the front or upper part of the body of an animal, typically separated from the rest of the body by a neck, and containing the brain, mouth, and sense organs'

And again here.

[Gruftzwerg]

Cephalization from wikipedia:


Cephalization is considered an evolutionary trend,[1] whereby nervous tissue, over many generations, becomes concentrated toward one end of an organism. This process eventually produces a head region with sensory organs.

region = doesn't have to be a separate part from the main-body.


@ Marriam-Webster:
anterior region = front region, and the central eye + mouth are the front region.

@ Oxfort:
talks also about the front parts of animals. Further "typically separated from the rest of the body by a neck" means also, that there can be untypical heads, thus this is not a strict requirement. typically != always


Sry, but I still fail to see any real evidence.

[GrayDeath]

Is it that hard to have one competition without people arguing about (in this case not even participating) rule decisions that would fall to the judges or the Chairs purview any way? :smallsigh:

[Blue Jay]

It is following the rules strictly. What the rule says is that a creature must have a discernible head to qualify for the template. A beholder does not have a discernible head. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter how abnormal a creature's body plan is, the only issue is whether or not it has a head.

Okay, I'm a professional biologist, and I've taught invertebrate anatomy twice at the college level (I've dissected a couple dozen squid, and hundreds of insects and spiders). I want you to know that anatomy is not the black-and-white picture you're painting. Here is my input on the discussion regarding anatomy:

"Cephalization" does not mean you have head: it means you have a distinct front and back end, with brain tissue focused towards the front end. If cephalization is the key word for the Multi-Headed template, then a beholder clearly qualifies (look at the anatomy diagram from Lords of Madness), as does a maggot, a slug and a nematode worm.

Does a squid have a discernible head? I'd say "yes." However, using technical anatomical terminology, there doesn't seem to be a discernible "body": the mantle is not the body, but just the fleshy "cloak" that surrounds it. As far as I can determine, malacologists do not use any specific terminology for the squid's "body" region, and laypersons often inaccurately equate the mantle with the body. But, the head is just the capsule where the eyes, mouth and brain are. Curiously, the arms and tentacles are the squid's "foot," and they are not considered part of its head, so using strict, biological terminology for your D&D game, you would have to conclude that a squid with the Multi-Headed template would not get extra Arms or Tentacle attacks. Of course, since the "head" is wedged in the middle of the squid body plan, I'm not exactly sure where the extra head would grow, and might be inclined to reject a Multi-Headed squid as a valid build.

Does a monstrous spider have a discernible head? Well, one of the defining characteristics of an arachnid is that the head and thorax are fused into one body region, called the "cephalothorax," so the answer seems to be "no." Then again, as a trained arachnologist, I can discern where the spider's "cephalic region" (i.e, head) is, and can use features of the cephalic region to identify some spiders to species. So, maybe the answer is actually "yes." Personally, I would lean towards "no" on this one for pragmatic reasons, but since y'all seem adamant on using technical, scientific definitions for things, perhaps you should also use the expertise of a scientist when deciding whether or not something can be "discerned."

Does a centipede have a discernible head? That answer is, most assuredly, "yes." Curious fact, though: the centipede's "fangs" are actually not on its head: they're modified legs that grow on the first body segment behind the head. So, using strict biological terminology for your D&D game would lead you to conclude that a Multi-Headed centipede should not gain a second Bite attack, and a Tauric centipede should be allowed to keep its Bite attack. However, it seems that the designers were not particularly concerned about faithfully representing centipede anatomy when they wrote those templates, so the exact reverse of a proper biological understanding of centipedes is upheld by those templates.

How about a shark? Or other fish? Anatomically, a fish has a head. Clearly. However, there is no neck, and the head actually kind of blends into the body. So, functionally speaking, it's not all that different from a spider's cephalothorax, and in overall appearance, a fish is really not that different from a beholder, either: a single, uncontoured body with a face and brain on one end. So, I think drawing a line between the two is a pretty arbitrary decision.

To me, a beholder has a discernible "head," but I would not consider the eyestalks to be on the "head." So, a two-headed beholder, in my mind, would most appropriately be constructed as a beholder with a face on each end (or two faces, side by side), which consequently has two bite attacks and two anti-magic cones, but the normal number of eye rays. Clearly, Thurbane thought differently, and that's okay with me: either one would have been a valid entry into this contest, in my opinion. That's not to say I would have scored them highly, were I a judge; but I do think such entries should have been allowed.

To try to make this into a technical discussion about what is and isn't a head is a fool's errand. Anyone can make an argument based on whatever principle they want, and you're deluding yourself if you think there are simple, definitive, black-and-white solutions to things like this, even in appeals to technical, rigid, scientific discourse on the matter.

I think the proper way to handle a contest like this is to err on the side of inclusivity. We don't need a priori rulings on what poorly-worded or ambiguous template prereqs mean: we have judges who are specifically asked to rate things like "creativity" and "build elegance." Let them be the arbiters of what does and doesn't fit the spirit of the competition, because that's precisely the job description of a contest judge.

If someone had tried to enter a gibbering mouther, arguing that it has multiple heads, I say the way to handle this would not be to argue with the entrant about the definition of "head," but to just allow the entry, and see what the judges say. Chances are, the entry would not have scored well, because while some judges might have thought it was a creative take on the theme, most would probably regard it as "inelegant" (at least) or cheeky. And that's okay: that is, after all, exactly what the judges are there for. Then again, somebody might have come up with a really interesting way to build a gibbering mouther around a multi-headed theme, so rejecting it outright would be a travesty, in my opinion.


And I don't see how your forum rank should come into this at all. I'm a Halfling, after all.

It's just a nervous habit: I worry too much about people taking me too seriously.

[Thurbane]

Is it that hard to have one competition without people arguing about (in this case not even participating) rule decisions that would fall to the judges or the Chairs purview any way? :smallsigh:

I agree that this is starting to be a massive derail, especially considering no such entry was made in the competition.

[The Viscount]

Agreed. More energy should be devoted to appreciation of these builds. I'm getting the chance to read them in detail now, and it's an excellent round. If I do poorly here I will not be disappointed.

[ben-zayb]

On a positive note, that's one heck of an informative post, Blue Jay! It's amazing how much stuff I learn from the playground members from different fields.

[Thurbane]

Saw these images in my Facebook feed today (Stan Winston School of Character Arts)...Half-Farspawn Multiheaded Were-Dire Boar Forest Giant maybe? :smalltongue:

http://i68.tinypic.com/t9h1zb.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/2iw29p1.jpg

[danielxcutter]

...the heck? O_O

Looks like the Big Bad Wolf miiiiiiight be in a sticky situation.

[The Viscount]

That's a great picture. I think I'd go 3 half-farspawn anthropomorphic pigs using Fusion and expansion.

Reminds me a lot of Bi-Beast
http://www.evilnewsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/hulk2-169pic2.gif

or
Maash
http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/Images/Characters/Maash.jpg
Fun fact: only 2 of his heads are evil.

[remetagross]

Some Gazebo Jones-level of wtf entries, this round! Congrats, all :D

I was aiming for a Sharn follower of Demogorgon, that would have ripped off one of its own heads to more resemble its two-headed patron. I would have then advanced it to CR 10 and slapped all 10 levels of Thrall of Demogorgon. The trick would have been the fact that Aberration CR increases by 1 for every 4 HDs adding, but Sharns are natural Sorcerer 7/Cleric 5 casters with two standard actions per round, that gain one sorcerer or cleric caster level for each HD they gain. As a result, for the cosr of CR +2 the Sharn would have gained 8 sorcerer levels, and then spammed Polymorph Any Object to turn everything into a two-headed monster of the same type (for the permanent duration) and then diplomancing it for the greater glory of Demogorgon.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was pondering an advanced two headed spell warped blink dog called Hound of Demikhov, but that seemed too morbid.

[Thurbane]

So...we have two potential judges?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I have been reviewing the entries, fear not. There was just a lot more to moving than I thought.

[Thurbane]

I have been reviewing the entries, fear not. There was just a lot more to moving than I thought.

I hear you - always an exasperating process in my experience...

[GrayDeath]

Job Trouble came up.
Should be settled by wednesday, which is when I`ll begin serious judging (as opposed to skimming over the entries and looking for obvious stuff^^).

[jdizzlean]

is there an idiots guide to VC for someone w/ no exp building monsters? Just in case someone had any kind of idea or wanted to attempt a build in the future...

How is CR calculated, especially when you're making something, not just starting off w/ a base thing and adding class lvls to it?

[Seto]

is there an idiots guide to VC for someone w/ no exp building monsters? Just in case someone had any kind of idea or wanted to attempt a build in the future...

How is CR calculated, especially when you're making something, not just starting off w/ a base thing and adding class lvls to it?

If that's what you mean, homebrew is not allowed (except in specific cases like the Elder Evils)... so it seems to me than in any case, you'll start off with a base thing.

[jdizzlean]

i meant more if you're adding templates, do the crs automatically go up? what if it's a LA +0 template? what if it has no CR listed (does that exist?)

if i'm just taking something out of a MM or another book and adding class levels to it, that doesn't seem as hard, except i'd want to build it as a PC (that's my xp) which might make it unkillable? (one can hope right?)

[Venger]

is there an idiots guide to VC for someone w/ no exp building monsters? Just in case someone had any kind of idea or wanted to attempt a build in the future...

How is CR calculated, especially when you're making something, not just starting off w/ a base thing and adding class lvls to it?

start here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) and it'll cover the basics of building a monster either with or without class levels

cr is calculated by taking the base cr of the creature (which is listed) and then adding 1 for each class level you take, and then the relevant amount for any templates (if any) you apply, which are listed in the template entry.

you are not allowed to make up your own monsters. you have to use printed ones from the acceptable sources spelled out in the op


i meant more if you're adding templates, do the crs automatically go up? what if it's a LA +0 template? what if it has no CR listed (does that exist?)

if i'm just taking something out of a MM or another book and adding class levels to it, that doesn't seem as hard, except i'd want to build it as a PC (that's my xp) which might make it unkillable? (one can hope right?)

it depends on the template. LA is not relevant. vc is tabulated by cr, so check that. no, it's not.

taking a monster and adding class levels is pretty much the whole thing. don't strive solely for unkillability. there are many ways, and they're not in and of themselves a recipe for a good score. not to stormwind or imply a weak entry automatically scores well, but just do something you enjoy, and you'll probably do fine.

[Deadline]

i meant more if you're adding templates, do the crs automatically go up? what if it's a LA +0 template? what if it has no CR listed (does that exist?)

if i'm just taking something out of a MM or another book and adding class levels to it, that doesn't seem as hard, except i'd want to build it as a PC (that's my xp) which might make it unkillable? (one can hope right?)

Templates list what their CR adjustment is.

There are a couple of things that can trip folks up with regards to the VC competition. Both rules are found in the Monster Manual.

The first is how adding class levels affect CR. Class levels are considered either "Associated" or "Non-Associated". Associated class levels add to CR on a 1 for 1 basis (every Associated class level adds +1 CR). Non-Associated class levels add to CR on a 2 for 1 basis (every 2 Non-Associated class levels add +1 CR). For this competition, all classes are considered Associated (as per the OP).

The second is how adding advancing Monster by HD works (and affects CR). This is best covered in the back of the Monster Manual (under the Improving Monsters section). But it boils down to different creature types have different amounts of HD they can advance per +1 CR increase.

Important to note, LA has nothing to do with this competition.

Edit - And Venger swoops in with a link to Ur-Priest's Monster handbook! :smallbiggrin:

[jdizzlean]

holee crap, that is a lot to read. I'll get right on that, thanks

[jdizzlean]

ok, to clarify:

for base stats, you take the elite array, and then take the stats in the book and either subtract 10 or 11 depending on odd or even and add that number to the array number to find the actual stat for the entry at whatever it's base CR is, right?

[daremetoidareyo]

ok, to clarify:

for base stats, you take the elite array, and then take the stats in the book and either subtract 10 or 11 depending on odd or even and add that number to the array number to find the actual stat for the entry at whatever it's base CR is, right?

that is correct

[Venger]

ok, to clarify:

for base stats, you take the elite array, and then take the stats in the book and either subtract 10 or 11 depending on odd or even and add that number to the array number to find the actual stat for the entry at whatever it's base CR is, right?

just to be clear:

ability mods are always even, so if it's even, you subtract 10, and if it's odd, you subtract 11.

[Thurbane]

Maybe we should do a hypothetical basic entry (for no particular competition): Let's say it's a Half-Fiend Ettercap Cleric. We'll call him Ernie.

Stats

Ettercap stats are as follows: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 8; that translates to ability mods of Str +4, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha -2

Half-fiend stat modifiers are: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2

Ernie's total ability mods are Str +8 (+4/+4), Dex +10 (+6/+4), Con +4 (+2/+2), Int +0 (-4/+4), Wis +4, Cha +0

Next, well assign his array: Str 13 (+8), Dex 8 (+10), Con 14 (+4), Int 10, Wis 15 (+4), Cha 12.

Since he starts play with 5RHD, he gets ability bonuses a 8HD, 12 HD and 16HD. Let's put them all in Wisdom.

Ernie's final stats are: Str 21, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 12.

CR

CR is a little tricky, as Half-fiend CR increases as you gain HD.

Ernie would start out at CR 5 (3 for Ettercap, +2 for Half fiend); once he gets to 11HD (i.e. Cleric 6), the CR increase for Half-fiend jumps to CR +3.

His build table would look something like this:



CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


5
Outsider 1
+x
+x
+x
+x
36
Great Fortitude*
Ettercap + half-fiend abilities


5
Outsider 2
+x
+x
+x
+x
9




5
Outsider 3
+x
+x
+x
+x
9
Multiattack*



5
Outsider 4
+x
+x
+x
+x
9




5
Outsider 5
+x
+x
+x
+x
9




6
Cleric 1
+x
+x
+x
+x
3
6th level feat choice
Turn or rebuke undead


7
Cleric 2
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




8
Cleric 3
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




9
Cleric 4
+x
+x
+x
+x
3
9th level feat choice



10
Cleric 5
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




12
Cleric 6
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




13
Cleric 7
+x
+x
+x
+x
3
12th level feat choice



14
Cleric 8
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




15
Cleric 9
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




16
Cleric 10
+x
+x
+x
+x
3
15th level feat choice



17
Cleric 11
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




18
Cleric 12
+x
+x
+x
+x
3




19
Cleric 13
+x
+x
+x
+x
3
18th level feat choice



20
Cleric 14
+x
+x
+x
+x
3





...if I get time later I might fill in the blanks.

Hope this helps?

[jdizzlean]

its past my bedtime, i'll look it over in depth tmw and post any q's. I'm only i think 1/2 way thru that guide anyways

[Blue Jay]

CR

CR is a little tricky, as Half-fiend CR increases as you gain HD.

Ernie would start out at CR 5 (3 for Ettercap, +2 for Half fiend); once he gets to 11HD (i.e. Cleric 6), the CR increase for Half-fiend jumps to CR +3.

Maybe this is another tangent, but are you sure the Half-Fiend template works this way? Usually, template abilities don't scale with class levels. For example, the Book of Exalted Deeds discusses on p. 27 how to modify the LA of the Half-Celestial template based on the creature's racial HD, and it seems to assume that there is no scaling of the template's abilities beyond what you start with: so a base-race creature gets a static LA +2 for Half-Celestial.

[NontheistCleric]

Maybe this is another tangent, but are you sure the Half-Fiend template works this way? Usually, template abilities don't scale with class levels. For example, the Book of Exalted Deeds discusses on p. 27 how to modify the LA of the Half-Celestial template based on the creature's racial HD, and it seems to assume that there is no scaling of the template's abilities beyond what you start with: so a base-race creature gets a static LA +2 for Half-Celestial.

Well, it's pretty clear, looking at both the Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial templates, that the abilities are meant to scale, since they all mention HD instead of RHD. And even then, it's not like it's impossible to increase RHD, either.

Leaving aside the fact that LA doesn't matter in this competition anyway, it's quite likely the BoED writers simply messed up, as it was written quite early in 3.5's history and we all know that the designers didn't have a great grasp of their own system back then. Information on the Half-Celestial template should default back to whatever the Monster Manual has on it anyway, as it is the primary source.

[Venger]

Maybe this is another tangent, but are you sure the Half-Fiend template works this way? Usually, template abilities don't scale with class levels. For example, the Book of Exalted Deeds discusses on p. 27 how to modify the LA of the Half-Celestial template based on the creature's racial HD, and it seems to assume that there is no scaling of the template's abilities beyond what you start with: so a base-race creature gets a static LA +2 for Half-Celestial.

Thurbane's chart is correct.

Half-fiend is different from half-celestial, and la is not the same thing as CR, which is what vc is run on.

[Thurbane]

Maybe this is another tangent, but are you sure the Half-Fiend template works this way? Usually, template abilities don't scale with class levels. For example, the Book of Exalted Deeds discusses on p. 27 how to modify the LA of the Half-Celestial template based on the creature's racial HD, and it seems to assume that there is no scaling of the template's abilities beyond what you start with: so a base-race creature gets a static LA +2 for Half-Celestial.

Not sure what BoED has to say, just going by my reading of the SRD:


Challenge Rating
HD 4 or less, as base creature +1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature +2; HD 11 or more, as base creature +3.

AFAIK, the template checks total HD, not purely racial. If there's a specific rule about this somewhere, it would change my understanding of how it all works...

[Venger]

Not sure what BoED has to say, just going by my reading of the SRD:

AFAIK, the template checks total HD, not purely racial. If there's a specific rule about this somewhere, it would change my understanding of how it all works...

It's irrevant anyway, since the srd incorporates the most recent errata. The template does indeed check total HD.

half-celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) also has a modular adjustment for cr depending on hd.

[ZamielVanWeber]

AFAIK, the template checks total HD, not purely racial. If there's a specific rule about this somewhere, it would change my understanding of how it all works...

I think in 3.0 references to HD meant monster HD specifically? It does not matter since 3.5, but still I know it can cause confusion.

[NontheistCleric]

I think in 3.0 references to HD meant monster HD specifically? It does not matter since 3.5, but still I know it can cause confusion.

It's possible that some people are just used to dealing with 'HD' in the context of monster HD, because they spend most of their D&D time as a player, where most of the references to HD would have it being called 'level' or 'class level' or 'character level'. So when something talks about HD, they don't immediately associate the term with class levels.

[jdizzlean]

that table helped, thanks, i think the hardest part is just figuring out your base CR and from there aside from a random hop up in the middle, it's pretty straight forward.


not as scary as i first imagined it to be :)

[Blue Jay]

It's possible that some people are just used to dealing with 'HD' in the context of monster HD, because they spend most of their D&D time as a player, where most of the references to HD would have it being called 'level' or 'class level' or 'character level'. So when something talks about HD, they don't immediately associate the term with class levels.

Yeah, I think this was the case for me, too. I just looked through a few templates again, and noticed that half the places where I thought the wording was "character level" actually say "hit dice"; so it seems I was mentally equating "hit dice" with "racial hit dice." At any rate, I like the idea of letting the abilities scale with total HD instead of just racial HD, but I always just assumed I had to house-rule it to make it work that way.

[GrayDeath]

Just an update: I will likely be able to start judging around wednesday.

Sinc enoone else has posted any judgements yet, it might not be too important, but I thought I`d better inform you all. :)

[Thurbane]

Just an update: I will likely be able to start judging around wednesday.

Sinc enoone else has posted any judgements yet, it might not be too important, but I thought I`d better inform you all. :)

All good, and thanks for the update.

Speaking for myself, the contestants always appreciate any updates regarding judging...

[GrayDeath]

Then a second update: going to visit family starting Friday.

Should still find time to finish judging some time ext week at the latest, sadly some entries already make my head hurt (in a mostly good way ;))...

[GrayDeath]

Addendum: I would ike to ask fr n extension until the end of the month

Unexpectantly my parents computer is malfunctioning and doing all the judging (including getting info,a s I dont have any hard copies with me) on a phone is ... not recommendable.

I hop you understand.

[jdizzlean]

if you'd like, i can make an attempt at judging.

I have criteria for IC written up, but i can adapt it to VC, post, and start reviewing in depth

[jdizzlean]

How I intend to Judge:
First off, to repeat the original instructions: Please don’t assume I know the source of where you are getting your information. Kindly cite all sources used. If a basic google search doesn’t give me the answer as to the source you are pulling from, or if there are multiple options, I’m likely to pick the first one if it’s something I’m unfamiliar with, and then judge based off that. (Regardless of whether that was your intention or not, if you aren’t specific, well that’s your fault!)
In general, is it fun to read your build, and more importantly, would it be fun to fight?

Power/Competence

Are you to tough at each CR platform? Are you effective early and late in the build?
Can you do more than 1 thing well?
Does your build function in more than 1 environment, under a mix of situations, or only on clear sunny days?
Do you rely on tricks and creative interpretations of the rules to be effective? Whatever it is, tell me, or I have to base it off how I would play it, which all things considered, probably isn’t how you would.
How well can you do what you do?

Originality

Does your build make me sit up and go “oh my” /George Takei? Do you take opportunities to step out from the masses and make your build different?
Did you take the road less traveled?
Are you using your classes in different ways to augment the build as a whole?
Did you do something I wouldn’t have thought of to try?
I’m a fan of optimization, but you have to self-regulate. Taking VoP for example is considered to generally be in poor taste if the entirety of the rest of your build isn’t thematically on the same premise. I will penalize for excessive cheesiness.


Elegance

Are you able to do your build w/o an excess of unnecessary classes or dips? Does your build accomplish what it states it’s purpose is? Does it rely on 1-2 key features or tricks, or does it function at every step along the path?
Do all the things you have listed make sense? Or are they there to fill out the pre-reqs and then never used again? Is your character info relevant, or do you have 4 pages of scrawling for the sake of taking up space?
If I cut away all the fluff and rhetoric, will I still be amazed? Does the fluff make sense and work together?
I won’t necessarily penalize for the number of sources used, but if I have to have 5 books open to look up the legality and functionality of any ability or level, I’m likely to give a headache rating.
If you have to take feat and skill point taxes, do you make them work for you in the build, or do they just take up space so you can get to the SI?
Does your overall build flow from CR 1 to 20, or do you all of a sudden gain massive insight on until now unspent/unknown abilities when they all of a sudden become available to you? i.e. do you go from no ranks in a skill to maxed out in it at a later level?
You should be “BUILDING” a character from the beginning, not just when it becomes convenient and cheap to do so at a later time.


Memorable Villainy

Do you present a tried and true path and only change the means of it’s presentation? Will I think to myself that you’re just another skin on something that’s been done before? Will I still be talking about you next game, and the one after? Were you such a hard fight that the party had to seek help to overcome? Are you a complete surprise when you reveal yourself?

[Inevitability]

Two weeks extension seems somewhat long to me, especially as there's already been a bit of a delay. How do people feel about it?

Also, you're more than welcome to judge too, jdizzlean!

[daremetoidareyo]

Two weeks extension seems somewhat long to me, especially as there's already been a bit of a delay. How do people feel about it?

Also, you're more than welcome to judge too, jdizzlean!

I'd rather two judges than 1 even if it means waiting until oct 31st

[Baby Gary]

I'd rather two judges than 1 even if it means waiting until oct 31st

same, I would judge but I don't know enough to do it or have the spare time necessary to thoroughly go through ever entry.

[Thurbane]

I'd rather two judges than 1 even if it means waiting until oct 31st

same, I would judge but I don't know enough to do it or have the spare time necessary to thoroughly go through ever entry.
Same here.

http://i68.tinypic.com/et5sgl.jpg
Speaking of Oct 31st, any ideas for a Halloween/Samhain themed round?

[daremetoidareyo]

Speaking of Oct 31st, any ideas for a Halloween/Samhain themed round?

Headless???

[alpine]

Headless would be an excellent followup to multiheaded...

[ben-zayb]

Speaking of Oct 31st, any ideas for a Halloween/Samhain themed round?
Something to do with souls? Control 'em, sell 'em, be 'em, channel 'em, etc.

[Baby Gary]

Something to do with souls? Control 'em, sell 'em, be 'em, channel 'em, etc.

I like that, I might even have to try to do something, like make a entry

[daremetoidareyo]

I like that, I might even have to try to do something, like make a entry

The Soulripper!!!

[remetagross]

Soul-themed villain seems neat!

Also, we still have the duo of villains, and I'd like to reiterate on the idea of a politician/social villain.

[jdizzlean]

I'm about 1/2 way done, barring the kiddo being a pain the next few days while i'm off, i should be done by saturday.

[jdizzlean]

Sleep, who needs it

-or-

You've waited long enough for a judging. i'm sure there'll be disputes, but that might have to wait until Sunday to get addressed, i have a busy weekend.


Taman and Thoron - Total Score: Disqualified, but 9.25

Originality

Dvati is one of the two things that I would’ve immediately thought of for this challenge. I don’t know what benefit Ruathar is giving to the build beyond granting you a longer life, as the other class features seem a distant second to just gaining further levels in Conjurer. Eldritch Knight likewise seems an odd choice, you are only gaining a feat at the cost of a lost caster level, and better BAB progression. Abjurant Champion is a strong finishing class that does boost the rest of the build, but it comes online quite late. Nothing particularly awesome, or horrible in the design.
Score 3

Power

Aside from the elegance penalties below, this would be a formidable opponent in the early game. I don’t agree that Multivoice is that beneficial beyond allowing you to cast a spell with one twin, and attack with something other than a spell w/ the other twin. I think there are a lot of relatively dead levels where all you are doing is advancing casting and BAB and gaining absolutely nothing else.
Score 3.25


Elegance

Monster of Legend is a template that can only be applied to animal, beast, magical beast, or monstrous humanoids. Nowhere in the entry for Dvati does it state they are anything other than humanoid. Meaning the entire build is invalid, especially since the template is used to qualify for Ruathar, Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion. The Conjurer Variant gives up it’s familiar, and Immediate Magic makes you trade the familiar for it, you can’t trade something you don’t have. In your backstory, you list summoning a fiendish ape and setting it upon the elves. Then “saving” them from it, the special requirement in the Ruathar class entry states that in addition to the entry requirements (you used the 3rd lvl casting one) you must ALSO have performed a great service such as the defeat of a CR10 monster. Fiendish Ape is only a CR3 monster.
Score 0

Villainy

Rules issues aside, I think a mid-level party would have a tough time defeating this opponent. But I think a party in the late game would have a much easier time do to the drop off of power in the overall build. Knowledge devotion seems to have been taken for the sole purpose of increasing your melee damage against foes, or perhaps to justify spending all those skill points on knowledges in the first place. The pair would be a touch vulnerable until Multivoice comes online letting them take separate actions, otherwise only one of them can cast, and the other can’t do anything at all until the spell goes off.
Score 3.25




Boney Bonnie - Total Score: 16

Originality

A hydra is the other thing I would’ve immediately gone to for this challenge. A skeletal Pyro-Hyrdra that can 12-36x full attack everything in sight, even unprovoked due to the reasoning behind summon swarm would be a thing to see. As a DM, I would probably force you to roll something to not get dizzy after the first whirlwind headspinning AoO induced maelstrom. I’m not sure what, but something.
Score 4.5

Power

Warhulk grants +20 to your STR over the 10 level class as well as a ton of abilities that make attacking you in melee a really bad idea. The drawback being that your BAB is abysmal, however the +20 brings your STR to 47, which means your BAB isn’t even remotely bad at all considering that your melee full attack is now BAB 6 +18 for 24 for EACH HEAD on pretty much every single attack, cleave, great cleave, AoO. All the DR and Fast Healing, immunities pretty much mean something with an acid attack is the only thing that can “kill” off your heads. However, if they can get past your heads and actually just do damage to the body, you can be killed. Your weakness is that you occupy a space, and have no ability to get out of it short of running away. Ranged casters can plink at you at will without worrying about being hit back by anything. A flying PC is immune to anything you can do short of a breath weapon if they get to close. The lair’s design, if you choose to hide away somewhere, would be the real limiting factor in the fight.
Score 4


Elegance

Skeletons lack internal organs and flesh, so I don’t know how you’d argue that a skeletal Hydra would be able to regrow heads (but I’d like to hear it). (-.5)
I see that you are using the template to improve the base creature massively without taking any penalty at all, in fact gaining 7 CR worth of space in the process (a 12 headed pryohydra has a base cr of 13!) Cheesy. (-1)
Skeletons lose all feats from the base creature (so everything you have listed up to 12HD), and only gain Improved Initiative. You are giving yourself both the racial feats by HD, as well as the template. (-1)
Score 2.5


Villainy

This is very much an epic epic level beastie. I would do everything possible to defeat you from range, or destroy the environment around you. Engaging you in melee would pretty much be suicide. A high OP cleric that has done nothing but focus on Turn Undead might have a chance at destroying you outright, but if he failed, he’d die.
I would’ve liked to watch this fight, from way, way, way back.
Score 5

Masa/Mune – Total Score: 10

Originality

I like the thought process behind this build, but the stated requirement for this challenge is two or more heads. When Masamune is joined, he only has one head, irregardless of how many brains are twirling around in there. Yes they can split apart, but you have this built to ensure that they can go all day joined together. (-1)
Score 2

Power

Obviously with 2 complete characters, you have double the power at every step along the way. Masamune is a massive beatstick that when boiled down to the simplicities is a combined fighter/rogue with psionics thrown in. I feel the Elegance penalty for 2 distinct 20 CR creatures isn’t enough in this case. If this build were presented as is, but stopped masa and munes progression both at lvl 10, and then alternated their build ranks into the symbiotic creature to form the cr20 version it would be quite weak indeed. However I’m only supposed to penalize for something once..
Score 3

Elegance

The Symbiotic template lists in the CR rating as a mixed pair, the host AND the guest. Meaning that combined they have to equal 20CR for this comp, not each being 20CR. Score 1


(Plus, you do list quite a few sources in your build table, but not everything, a secondary table listing all the sources would be nice in the future. I couldn’t even find some things due to broken links in your build, so it’s hard to even judge this on any complete scale.)

Villainy

Either of them separately would be a challenge along the entire course of their builds. Masamune when joined together would be almost undefeatable due to the rules issues related to above. 2 20CR creatures don’t equal CR40, but they are a lot more than CR20. Non-epic PC’s would have an extremely tough time fighting you and would have to find some way to break the symbiotic attachment to have a chance.
Score 4

Aperantos – Total Score: 12

Originality

While your entry wouldn’t have been my first thought, it’s also a high enough CR in the first place that there isn’t all that much you can do with it. The devotion to Sertrous gives you some flexibility in enhancing the things you are stuck with, but that also means you don’t have a whole lot of room to maneuver afterwards either. You’re unfortunately stuck w/ only an end-game encounter as there’s no way a party could meet you before then. Neither +’s or –‘s for the above.
Score 3


Power

A snake demi-god, that can become all manner of differently sized snakes, including a snake swarm. (I’m tired of these m’f’ing snakes, on this m’f’ing plane ((of existence!)) I would immediately attempt to combine snake swarm and Dissoliving Touch, making every snake in the swarm exude 7d6 points of acid damage, and therefore melt the face off of anything that looked funny at me. (+.25)
The devotion to Sertrous feats add great flexibility to your build. I particularly like Insane Defiance paired with pretty much instant healing of the ability damange, which would allow you to divert mind-affecting spells/sla’s to another, including since you’re an evil bastard, any of the 800 other snakelings around you just for fun. (+.5)
He is a complete dungeon onto himself, but that is due largely to how the base creature is already built. (+0)
Score 3.75


Elegance

Binder is an interesting and good choice thematically for a snake godling bound to an elder evil. However, you don’t state which vestige you would bind which could make a difference in how the build works together, or works in or out of combat. I did find it after book diving and reading half the entry, but you should state it outright. While not specifically an elegance penalty at this point, it’ll remain as an un-typed deduction. (-.25)
Dark Speech is likewise appropriate, but you never state how you’ll use it to help your build out, despite some obvious ways that it could. (-.25)
Overall, your build accomplishes what I believe it’s purpose to be, but aside from feats, it’s almost a copy of the entry in the book for a yuan-ti anathema (-0)
Binder is a nice finish, allowing you to soak your ability hits almost instantaneously, but it’s not online until CR 19, even if that is only the 2nd “lvl” of your build. If someone were to find the beastie at it’s entry point and throw enough things at it, it would probably be a much “easier” fight then the 20th lvl incarnation of it.(+.25)
Score 2.75



Villainy

Asperantos would be a difficult fight if he was prepared for the encounter. With sufficient fore-knowledge of what they faced, I think a party could reasonably prepare for the fight to not suck as much as it otherwise would if they were ambushed by him, or stumbled upon him somehow. If I were fighting him and knew a fraction of his abilities, I would likely focus on destroying the environment he’s in, not in taking him on face to face. The key would be in not allowing the PC’s a chance to rest before being forced to enter the encounter. The vast swarm (pun intended) of minions beneath you could be sent out endlessly, thus negating the party from resting the generally requisite 8 hrs to replenish. As stated above, if they could somehow reach him at his first lvl, the fight would be easier, but still suck. (+.5)
Score 3.5



Chuck and Rufus - Total score 13.75
Originality

I like the combination of things you have going on here. I wouldn’t want to fight it, but I like it. There are a lot of elegance penalties, and as such are deducted below. I think throwing your head at someone is a pretty neat interpretation of the things you have going on in this build. Maybe not a legal one, but I like to break the rules too . I think if you could throw your head, and then have it strike a target, and then it could activate the breath weapon granted from Amon, assuming that is one of the 2 traits you’re using, that it could be pretty unnerving to whomever you’re fighting. Duskblade fits pretty good w/ the 2 heads constantly at one another’s throats (haha) as a means of building 2 separate classes into one build. I think you should designate which head is capable of doing which side however, so that when you throw say the left head, you know that you can’t cast magic until it’s reattached, but that’s just gameplay there.
Score 4


Power

An invisible at will shadow blending, dimension hopping, head throwing, fire breathing giant troll. Lightning Ricochet basically lets you throw your head (or a legal item) at 3 different enemies per round. Assuming your head was a legal thing to throw, I would imagine as it is still a part of your body, and still alive, that it would retain its invisibility until it had struck whatever you were throwing it at. So being hit by an invisible head, possibly more than once, could be a bit unnerving, maybe you could wrangle a will save out of that.
Score 3.5


Elegance

I don’t see the detach component of Multi-Headed in the Template info in SS. I did find it later listed in the CR ratings as a feat, Take care to list things in the proper place (it’s not on the build table). However it states you can remove a portion of your body that can make a melee attack other than a bite. Which means you can’t detach and throw your head. You do have a creative way of making the ranged attack a melee attack, but that doesn’t mean that your head is capable of making a melee attack, it just means that when you throw your head, you treat it as a melee attack for rolling purposes as opposed to a ranged one. Martial Throw, at 2nd level of Bloodstorm Blade allows a thrown weapon to initiate a strike which technically might qualify the head as a viable thing to detach, but you don’t get this ability until CR 14, which is more then halfway through your build progression, thus negating a large portion of the build to this point. Further, Ram Attack would technically count as a melee weapon due to it being a natural weapon, but you would have no way of delivering it, so I’m not sure if it would qualify still. (-1.5)
Because you are using Bind Vestige as a feat, you only gain a binder level of 1 for your binding of Amon. The full check roll would be 1d20 +1 binder level -1 CHA. Which means the majority of the time more than likely you will be under Amon’s influence even though you’ll be able to keep the benefit of the binding. The negatives aren’t huge, but they’re still negatives. (-.25)
You have Skilled City Dweller as an ACF to access Tumble instead of Ride. None of your fluff has you living in an urban environment, or being from one. I don’t know how you’d get this as an ACF past any DM that was paying attention. (-.5)
Score 2.75


Villainy

You would definitely be a hard fight. I do think the difficulty would scale as you go along, I think you’d peak around CR12-15, so before and after that might be easier than in that range. First they have to see you, then they have to try and hit you, then they have to worry about you throwing your invisible head at them, then they have to worry about that head shooting flames at them (possibly), then they have to worry about that head discharging a channeled spell after all that resolves, and then they have to do that all over again. EVERY ROUND.
Score 3.5


The Fleichshriver Horror – Total Score: 17.5
Originality

Half fiend by itself applied to anything hugely ginormous would be scary enough. I don’t see the point in having 10 heads, as the Phaerlin Giant doesn’t do anything special other then be a big ugly thing. Any DM that didn’t outright BAN Blasphemy from the table is inviting a TPK as there is no save against it. Pouncebarian has been done to death, but it’s almost an afterthought here as opposed to the reason for the build. Swordsage levels give the meat of the build beyond the SLA’s from Half-fiend.
Score 4.5

Power

The Eternal hero line grants you essentially a full extra hit points pool every day, as well as complete resurrection everyday. You can never be killed unless the PC’s find a way to utterly destroy every single atom of you. Disintegrate won’t work. Anyone that heard even a fraction of your capabilities and still decided to fight you, would not live very long at all.
Score 5

Elegance

I don’t see where you’re getting 28HD at CR 11 (base) let alone CL 28. Phaerlin Giant only has 8HD, multi-headed doesn’t add HD, and neither does Half-fiend. (-2)
Score 3

Villainy

No. Just no.
Score: 5



The Unkindness of Hextor – Total Score: 14.75
Originality

A Hivemind swarm, of ravens, who are clerics, and sorcerers, and serve a god, and who will eventually “
run” a town/area. Yea. I feel like some kind of quote associated to “no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!@” would be appropriate here.

Hivemind swarms aren’t a new thing, and it’s essentially a free template with a lot of +’s, and not very many minus’s, however it’s quite cheesy and ripe for abuse.
Score 4

Power

You’re hard to hit due to the nature of a swarm, which means it’s hard to break your concentration when casting. If you chose to use Ravens squawking as your “language” for casting the somatic components of spells, no one would take that as anything special, until you threw a fireball at them all of a sudden. Otherwise you’re a basic divine/arcane caster without any tangible melee ability beyond the abuse of Blindness, for which the DC falls off as you go up in CR.
Score 4

Elegance

You do lose a little from the Cleric casting as you can’t hold up a holy symbol as a swarm, which negates the extra turning feat you take at CR 19. (-.25)
Monster of Legend grants a breath weapon OR frightful presence, not both. (-.5)
Higher level spells will be hard, if not impossible, to cast due to not being able to carry the spell components around with you, thus negating a large swath of your spell list. (-1)
Score 3.25

Villainy

Once the PC’s find out about you, it’s open hunting season on every Raven in sight. However by attacking the church in some fashion they could simply draw you out. As a hivemind swarm, you have to stay together in the same 10 ft space, and 1000 Ravens packed that tightly together would be quite hard to miss. If the PC’s could separate the swarm somehow, or contain it, they’d have a large advantage to beating you. Aside from your flight speed and spells, you have no defense against area spells that can target you, and with limited hit points and no SR/DR/healing ability, the right party could walk over you. However, you’d have the element of surprise, because Ravens. After the initial encounter, I suspect the next one wouldn’t go so well.
Score 3.5

[Inevitability]

Disputes, batch #1!



Thanks for the judging.

Wow. Just wow. I was 100% sure Dvati were monstrous humanoids. Checking Dragon Compendium, you are right; I can't see any such mention. Perhaps I was conflating them with Tibbit or Lupin. :smallredface: I have to wear that on the chin. :smallfrown:

However, I must protest some of your other judgements:

Yes, Immediate Magic replaces Familiar. However, the Enhanced Summoning variant loses bonus feats (in this case, Scribe Scroll): there is no conflict or duplication of what is given up for the ACFs/variants. You may be confusing the Enhanced Summoning with the Rapid Summoning variant (both in UA), the latter of which does give up it's familiar.

In regards to the fiendish dire ape and saving the elves: the reqs for Ruathar say the following:


In addition to meeting one of the three requirements given above, you must have performed a great service to an elf community, such as participating in the defeat of a monster of at least CR 10, recovering a valuable elven magic item, or risking death in order to save an elf’s life.

Emphasis mine. It doesn't say that you must fulfill all criteria; risking your life is, in and of itself, enough, even if no CR10 creature or valuable eleven magic item was involved. In the eyes of the elves that the twins saved, they were risking their lives to save them. The fiendish ape could easily have been pre-ordered to attack it's summoners if threatened, so in effect, they were risking their lives (although it was highly unlikely the ape could have killed them, it wasn't entirely impossible).

In regards to Ruathar and Eldritch Knight levels: they were combines with Abjurant Champion to achieve BAB +16 by CR 20. There may have been another means to achieve this, but this was my solution. Granted, I could have thrown the quest for BAB +16 by CR 20 out the window, and focused on casting levels alone. Still, I feel hitting BAB +16 and CL 17 in the build was true to the goal I was looking to achieve.

Multivoice Allows both twins to unload spells in the same round. I feel the Power score doesn't really take this into account.

Anyhow, my disputes are largely academic, due to my colossal blunder in assuming Dvati to be eligible for Monster of Legend. :smalleek:



Hey jdizzlean, thank you for judging.

Only one minor nitpick: multiheaded definitely does add HD; 2 per extra head to be exact. It's part of what makes it the crazybroken 3.0 template that it is. Just be thankful I let some sanity prevail and not make it lernaean as well. :P


Hit Dice: Each additional head adds 2 HD to the base creature’s total.

8HD (giant outsider) + 20HD (template), before class levels.

[jdizzlean]

T&T

Ok on the Ruathar entry, I stopped reading at CR10. my bad. My interpretation of it is not that the beastie was a different CR, it was that a CR10 encounter is inherently more dangerous than a CR3 one, and the lack of danger was what failed to qualify. However, in the backstory you only say you saved the elves, not that you risked your life to do so. A little more attention to the details of the story would have cleared this up.

I can't recall where I was looking at Conjurer, I think I couldn't originally find it in UA, so I went back to the entry listed on ddtools, and then misunderstood that the variants are all listed there. You are correct.

However due to the illegality of Monster of Legend, the score must stand.

On Multivoice:



From the Benefit text, SS

As a full-round action, you can cast one additional spell (or use a spell-like ability in combination with
a spell or another spell-like ability) each round. Each spell used in this way must have a casting time of 1 action; a spell-like ability must also take no more than a standard action to use. Using this feat provokes an attack of opportunity. If your concentration is interrupted during this simultaneous casting or spell-like ability use, whether by taking damage or by some other means, a Concentration
check is required for each spell or spell-like ability. Failing either Concentration check negates both spells or spelllike abilities.

You can also use one head to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while another head activates a head-based special attack, such as a breath weapon or an eye ray


From the entry for Dvati, DC


When a dvati casts a spell, both members of the pair must focus and concentrate on it. Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, although only one must supply material components. One twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks, for example. A lone Dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts.


The feat doesn't override the racial, other then to allow the twin not casting to be able to act also. You still can't cast with both of them, all multivoice does is allow your twins to cast AND attack now, or to have 1 twin cast twice while the other still must stand there and do nothing.

The score stands.


For the Horrrrrrrrrror

you are correct, i missed that on review, but HD doesn't equal CL's. I'll remove 1/2 the penalty.

Score adjusted to 4

[Venger]

chairman, your inbox appears to be full.

[Inevitability]

Thank you for the judging update, jdizzlean. I know it may seem like pointless pedantry at this point, and trust me, I am already very happy with your score, but in the case of half-fiend, HD does equal CL.



Spell-Like Abilities
A half-fiend with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.



chairman, your inbox appears to be full.

Fixed that.

[jdizzlean]

I'll remove the penalty on cl's and reassign it to massive queso instead then :)

score still 4

[Inevitability]

In which further disputes are revealed.



Thank you for stepping up to judge so late in the game.


Elegance - You do lose a little from the Cleric casting as you can’t hold up a holy symbol as a swarm, which negates the extra turning feat you take at CR 19. (-.25)
Monster of Legend grants a breath weapon OR frightful presence, not both. (-.5)
Higher level spells will be hard, if not impossible, to cast due to not being able to carry the spell components around with you, thus negating a large swath of your spell list. (-1)


Extra Turning - I took the feat to have extra uses of Divine Metamagic, not for actually turning undead.
Monster of Legend - Wow, missed that, In fact I have neither, because I have spellcasting.
Spell Components - As a Hivemind I get the eschew materials for free, and I think I could carry any other required materials in my 1000 pairs of talons.


Villiany - Aside from flight speed and spells, you have no defense against area spells that can target you

What better defenses against spells are there than cleric and sorcerer spells of my own?:smallbiggrin:

With nothing but respect,


And another:


Thank you for taking the time to judge, generous souls like you keep this competition running.

That being said, I want to clarify several things about my entry. Let's go in order of importance.

Several times you mention Amon's breath weapon. As shown on the chart on page 74 of ToM, the bind vestige and practiced binder feats grant darkvision and a ram attack, which is why I discussed the ram and not the breath weapon in my entry.

As for "designating which head does which side" the rules do not specify that the heads take different classes. A multiheaded creature still functions as one creature, so the heads have access to all class features, including casting, together. It's a moot point anyway, since Detach is brought in at CR 15, at which point Chuck and Rufus have access to Thunderous Throw, meaning the head will return at the beginning of the round in time to reattach and throw it again. At CR 16 and on, Lightning Ricochet means the head returns immediately, so even if loss of a head did alter spellcasting, it doesn't change anything.

Skilled City Dweller is an urban themed ACF, but it doesn't mention any prerequisites of being from an urban environment, Not sure why I'd have to "get it past" the DM since this is a monster for DM use.

You are correct in that the high binding DC means failure of the binding check is the norm, so Chuck and Rufus will be operating under Amon's influence. However, the penalty only activates if they disobey the influence. Amon demands that they attempt a save against any beneficial spell cast by those devoted to deities of sun, fire, or law. Chuck and Rufus are not devoted to such a deity and don't have any allies in their entry. There's no way this penalty would come up with any frequency.

Most importantly, let's talk about Detach. Detach is a feat, not an aspect of Multiheaded, which I never implied. Detach is listed in its proper place: the cell for feats at level 15, right next to Spectral Skirmisher.
You asked several questions about the intricacies of using Detach and my build's central premise which are detailed in the CR 15 subheader, but let's go over them.

“But you have to use it on a body part that delivers something other than a bite!” I hear you say. That’s what binding Amon is for, granting at least 1 ram attack so that the head is a viable target. I included this line because I expected the reader to think it, but it clearly didn't explain things properly. Practiced Binder grants Amon's ram attack that deals 1d6 points of damage. The ram attack uses curling ram's horns that grow on the head, so the head can deliver a melee natural attack other than a bite. You say that I have "no way of delivering" the ram attack, but that's exactly what practiced binder does, so you'll need to explain that.
Thunderous Throw's purpose in the build is to channel spells into the head, not qualifying for Detach, which is already done. It activates at CR 14, which is a level before detach comes on line. Yes, the key aspect I wanted to showcase is online at CR 15, which is why all this is in the subheader for CR 15. This doesn't "negate the build until this point" because the aspects of the build function on their own. Chuck and Rufus can still make ram attacks, cast spells, and throw things before CR 15; this is just the point where everything unites.

[jdizzlean]

Hextor


Turning: Penalty removed +.25

Spell Components: Eschew Materials only grants things costing less than 1GP free, higher level spells components cost much more then that, or are things that just can't be carried by a tiny birds talons. how do you propose to carry pinches of dried dust, very fine silver wire, iron filings, diamond dust, gems worth X gold, etc. Let alone decide what you need to carry w/ you on any given day? You can't just fly back to the church and have all the cultists tie tiny sacks onto the next bird in lines feet in any sort of quantity that would still allow them to fly. Penalty stands.

Villainy: Even though that may be the case, it doesn't warrant enough merit to increase the score due to the limitations otherwise stated previously. Penalty stands.

new score overall: 15.00

Chuck and Rufus

I mentioned breath weapon as an option, not as a component of the build as I probably would've gone that route due to the fact you can choose which option the binding grants you. It didn't factor into my scoring in any way.

Likewise, determining which head does what was an observation and wasn't part of score calculation, despite you naming one as a learning magic, and one learning bladed combat...

Skilled City Dweller: I feel like there shouldn't be an explanation here, it's an URBAN ACF for characters that are in an URBAN environment as opposed to the in general out in the wilds environment that all characters are inherently based on. It'd be like taking a sea-based feat to apply to your character that has never seen a boat. The DM still has to follow the same rules he/she want the PC's to follow. There are plenty of other ways to gain access to a skill you don't have. Penalty stands.

Binding Influence, as I stated, the penalty isn't big (meaning in general or in frequency) but a penalty is a penalty regardless. Penalty stands

Detach: I stand corrected, it is in fact part of the build table. +.5
My statement: "I don’t see the detach component of Multi-Headed in the Template info in SS." was due to how you organized your Sources tab.

However, clearly you knew going into this that it would come up as an issue, you did devote large swaths of text to defending it in the first place. If you look at the examples in the text of the feat, it states:



As an attack action, you can detach a portion of your body that can make a melee attack other than a bite (such as a paw, tail, or tentacle) and use it as a thrown weapon (range increment 20 feet).

You clearly stated your position on this, I clearly answered mine in the interpretation. If you were to look at a sword on the ground, it's a melee weapon, but that doesn't mean it can deliver a melee attack on it's own. A natural weapon/attack is the same thing. On the head, it may count as another weapon, but once you throw that head, how is that head supposed to deliver a strike once it's on the ground? You clearly put some thought into your argument, but since there is no RAW on head throwing as a weapon you must move to RAI, and I've given you my thoughts on the issue, the rest of the penalty stands. Score adjusted to (-1)

and finally, a whole lot of thought goes into being able to throw your head as a weapon, but it isn't implemented earlier in the build. You take the binding vestiges during creation, but then wait 7 levels to use the ability to throw your head in the first place (when it's convenient to do so). Part of my judging criteria is that you are building a character, and waiting until it's less of a penalty all around to use a key item of your build is the reason you've been penalized so. Does the "build" function along the way? Yes. But you can't do a key tenet of it that you put forward until level 15, when you chose to do so because the negatives of doing so were more in your favor than doing so beforehand.

Adjusted Total Score: 14.25

[Inevitability]

MOAR disputes!



Spell Components: Eschew Materials only grants things costing less than 1GP free, higher level spells components cost much more then that, or are things that just can't be carried by a tiny birds talons. how do you propose to carry pinches of dried dust, very fine silver wire, iron filings, diamond dust, gems worth X gold, etc. Let alone decide what you need to carry w/ you on any given day? You can't just fly back to the church and have all the cultists tie tiny sacks onto the next bird in lines feet in any sort of quantity that would still allow them to fly. Penalty stands.

Well I do have a strength of 10, my ability to be encumbered should be at the level of a normal human, and I don't have infinite spells, Can I not just carry the materials for the spells I have prepared? Ravens can definitely open little baggies of dust or whatever to get the components out, and as you said I can have my cultists prepare them for me. Gemstones would be easiest, but I think any of those examples would be doable.

This normal crow can carry a knife, I think a blessed crow could carry a gemstone.

Video on youtube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fbEmImSRQI)


Hey there Jdizzlean, thank you so much for judging. I really appreciate the time and effort that it takes.

I have a major dispute that I think will pleasantly surprise you: The CR for MasaMune is calculated as a mixed pair. If you look at the build table, you'll see that Mune's feats are not added until later levels. If you check the induvidual stat blocks, you'll observe that Masa is a CR 19 entry and Mune ends at CR 17.

Sorry about the linking issue with sources. That's frustrating as all get out. Here is the mind's eye source with the hidden talent and bonus feat soulknife: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a



Secondly, This may rustle your jimmies, but I'm going to go for it anyway. It doesn't say anywhere in the symbiotic template that your head is subsumed into the new body: in the picture for the template I can clearly see a stirge and a hobgoblin both having their head peek out of the same body. The attack portion of the template seems to spell out that a symbiotic creature with a bite attack, for example, would still get their bite attack. This makes him a super fast "this way! -No that way!" ogre monster thing. Hence the two headed picture that riffs off of that fantastic elocator art.


Anyway, Thanks for doing your best despite the web sources being broken links. I'm really glad that you seemed to like the entry a bit despite that frustration. I'll troubleshoot that issue next time I submit an entry.

Thanks again!

[jdizzlean]

Unkind:

While it's obvious that I don't agree w/ your position, I do recognize SOME merit within it. I will lessen the penalty by .25, however I still maintain my position that there are just some things you can't carry around at will, or that during a prolonged fight you would likewise be unable to access.

Final Score: 15.25

M&M:

On symbiosis: I feel the nature of the outward appearance is dependent upon each pairing. In the picture you mention, the reason the stirge is visible is that it has an attack that could be beneficial to the host being. An extra human head poking out of an otherwise normal looking human does nothing beneficial for the host short of maybe denying flanking. The guest head has no natural attacks like a breath weapon or gaze to deliver. Further you'd definately stand out and become a much more visible target then otherwise.

Secondly: A CR 19, and a CR 17 are still higher then a CR20 when joined, especially considering that you have dumped 3 stats on each one to only take advantage of the 3 you need from each when they are joined together. You don't have a weak stat at all. Sure you don't have 18's in anything, but you don't have 10's or less in anything either. You also don't have a bad save due to this. You're not taking 2 things and mashing them together, you have tailor made each so that when they're joined you have all positives and no negatives between them.

Thirdly: I still feel the symbiotic creature should be a mesh of the two of them from the start as it clearly states for every other line item in the description of the template. Not adding the feats from 1 until the end of the "build" goes against this line of reasoning. You've cherry picked the things you'll keep from each to conform Masamune to be a CR20 opponent, however I feel it's much higher due to the things I've stated. If you were to add all of the feats from both, all of the class skills from both, etc, you'd have more then is listed now.

As it sits, you have 30 feats listed on Masamune. a straight lvl 20 human fighter (fighter's suck, but get the most feats) only gets 19 feats. Clearly there is some serious cheese going on in your build. Even more so when you factor in a +20 untyped bonus to skills from one of the pair to the other..

And, not factored in, but you represent TEN classes in Masamune, which would've been an elegance penalty on its own for excessive sources, not counting who knows how many total sources have been used due to several items in the build table being listed as independent sources.

On Originality: I will lessen the penalty to .5 I feel that I can understand your view on it, despite my not agreeing with it.

On Power: I would've increased the score due to the points above, but then applied a cheese rating taking it away, score remains unchanged.

On Elegance: I will reduce the penalty by .5 However I feel strongly that this entry has abused the system at every step to create an extremely Overpowered "monster".

Total Score 11

(I can't access wizards content at work where I am currently, if that link changes any of the above further, I will update your score in another post to reflect this later tonight, or tomorrow after I've had a chance to review it.)

[Inevitability]

Another dispute.


I don't want to seem like I'm being contentious here, but there still seems to be some confusion on the build here.

You cannot gain Amon's breath weapon from the bind vestige feat, only the ability indicated on the chart that accompanies the feat. The only way to gain Amon's breath weapon is to take a level of binder, which I did not do.

When I mentioned Chuck and Rufus disagreeing on studying pact magic (binding) and the path of the blade (iron heart), this was to represent the feats that they take early in the build. I took care to mention that they together studied Duskblade.

I'm honestly confused how you think a situation could arise in which the penalty from influence would apply even once. The penalty would only happen if they willingly accepted beneficial magic derived from a deity of fire, sun or law, which is something they could simply refuse. Like a paladin falling, they have to choose to break influence and only then do they get the penalty. How would this happen?

Lastly, on Detach. You said "On the head, it may count as another weapon, but once you throw that head, how is that head supposed to deliver a strike once it's on the ground?" I agree with you that a severed head lying on the ground is incapable of ramming enemies. I would similarly say that a severed paw on the ground is not capable of clawing. I'm confused what this has to do with my build. If you are saying that detach only works on a body part that can attack all by itself, then the feat would never apply to anything. The point of the feat is that the damage is inflicted by throwing the body part; a melee natural attack briefly becomes a thrown weapon. Chuck and Rufus throw a head at a target, the target is damaged by the ram (as Detach explains) and then a spell channeled through this attack also affects the target. After this, the head doesn't do anything except return to the body (using lightning ricochet) and is then held onto the stump to be reattached.
The "RAW on head throwing as a weapon" is all from the full description of Detach, since it does not provide an exhaustive list of body parts, heads are included for delivering rams, gores, and so on. I want to be clear here. What do you think the Detach feat does?

[Inevitability]

Yet another dispute:


jdizzlean, thank you for judging!

A few things did pop up that I wanted to comment upon.


Skeletons lack internal organs and flesh, so I don’t know how you’d argue that a skeletal Hydra would be able to regrow heads (but I’d like to hear it). (-.5)

I don't know why such an argument is needed, really. If a Hydra's head is cut off, it regrows. That's the way it works. The whole head regrows. Flesh (if it exists), brain (if it exists), and bone. Skull, teeth, vertebrae -- it all grows back. Not because there are internal organs or flesh, but because of the hydra-ness. I know of nothing in the RAW that would require organs and flesh to regrow a head. And, as such, I see no reason that the lack of organs and flesh would prohibit those heads from regrowing.


Skeletons lose all feats from the base creature (so everything you have listed up to 12HD), and only gain Improved Initiative. You are giving yourself both the racial feats by HD, as well as the template. (-1)

True, the skeleton template does cause a creature to lose all of it's (previous) feats while gaining Improved Initiative.
However, the Awaken Undead spell (as per the Spell Compendium) returns intelligence to a mindless undead (such as a skeleton) and, with it, feats and skill points (as shown in the Monster Manual p.290). Thus, Boney Bonnie, being an Awakened Skeleton, gains the Improved Initiative feat from the skeleton template and her feats and skill points (as an undead Hydra) through leveling just as any other intelligent creature does.

[jdizzlean]

Chuck:

I feel like i'm taking crazy pills.

The breath weapon and which head does what HAD ZERO IMPACT ON YOUR SCORE THEY WERE JUST CONJECTURE ON MY PART.

You willingly gave yourself the "option" of a penalty in your build. I'm not going to story play the myriad ways that it could come up, few though they may be. Penalty stands.

On detach: A paw on the ground could still move, a tentacle on the ground could still whip around, a arm or leg on the ground could still kick, or punch, or swing a weapon. A head on the ground isn't mobile. I interpret the Detach feat to be this: You can throw a piece of your body somewhere, once there, it can act as a melee extension of yourself (it can deliver a strike!). Once a head is on the ground, it can't act, it has no mobility. If you had tentacles growing out of your head, and the head on the ground could then move, we wouldn't be having this conversation. While it's attached to your body, you can bend your waist, thrust forward with your body, and deliver a ram strike using the head. Once you take away all that structure, how do you propose to deal a strike? I already said that I appreciated the way you tried to take something that wasn't intended for what you wanted it to do, and put some thought into trying to get it to do what you wanted. I'm merely disagreeing with you.

Final Score: 14.25

Boney:

Regrowing: I agree that a hydra has the innate ability to regrow heads. I don't agree that a skeleton has the innate ability to regrow anything. You have a skeletal hydra that is the juxtaposition of these beliefs. I know what the template says, I'm simply not agreeing with it or you. Penalty stands.

Awaken/Skeleton: I'll remove half the penalty, and leave the rest as a further cheese rating for removing the penalties of being a skeleton at no effective cost.

Total Score: 16.5

[GrayDeath]

I am ack at home.
Should be able to start in depth judging tomorrow.

Sorry for theong wait (and wasn't there a third member who wanted to judge?).

[Inevitability]

GrayDeath, are you still judging? Otherwise I'll end this round.

[Thurbane]

GrayDeath, are you still judging? Otherwise I'll end this round.

While it would be nice to get a second lot of judging, October 31st would be an auspicious launch date for the new comp. http://d2trtkcohkrm90.cloudfront.net/images/emoji/apple/ios-10/33/0323.png

[Inevitability]

Any theme suggestions?

[remetagross]

Duo of villains? Soul reaper? Social villain?

How about a "Bureaucrat" villain in Red Fel's sense of the term? (Been rereading the guide that popped back^^). The villain that is somehow so intrinsically connected to the kingdom, that if he disappears, the kingdom might fall with him. Everyone despise and fears him, but is loathe to attack him because of how useful and essential he has come to grow within the society, the arcane network that keeps the world afloat, or what have you. And everyone hates having to resort to him, but still does, because he accomplishes his task better than anyone else.

[Thurbane]

Soul Reaper or Headless might be good for a Halloween round.

I also like the Politician, Cold Blooded and Yin/Yang themes.

[Darrin]

Any theme suggestions?

Given the contest will be running into November... well, it's largely an American/Canadian holiday, but a Thanksgiving theme... I was going to say, must involve a "bird", but I've got a better idea:

Swallow Whole.

[daremetoidareyo]

Given the contest will be running into November... well, it's largely an American/Canadian holiday, but a Thanksgiving theme... I was going to say, must involve a "bird", but I've got a better idea:

Swallow Whole.

perfect for thanksgiving

[GrayDeath]

As I promised, here it is. Had to jugde in many small amounts, due to massive time constraints.


Also, the headless and political seem most interesting to me atm.



Entry 1:



Originality:

While Dvate were very much exoected (although I myself dont count them as more than one head, as they have more than one BODY^^), the mix of classes and Monster of Legend very much were not (in part due to it not being legal, see later).

Overall almost the definition of Average. 3.00


Elegance: With the mix of no single class finished, a few Prestige classes and the small amount of cheese there is this would be the definition of a 3.00 … if there wasnt the glaring problem of Monster of legend. Dvati ar Humanoids.
So the build would need to be mssively remodeled to work, which subtracts another 1.5.

Sadly this leaves yo7u at 1.5


Power:

Ah, here we go. This assumes the build is made to work, otherwise I?d be punishing you in two seperate categories.
It does what its supposed to do very well and has some flexibility left to hlp out. Very good 4.5


Memorability:

Good, but not overwhelming. Depending on when the players meet the Twins they might not even realize their specialness, but if they do, the brothers are a foe to be remembered.

3.75

That gives you a Total of: 12.75pts






Entry 2:



Originality: The heck? I expected at least one Hydra, but a Bone Hydra Warlock/Warhulk? Not in the slightest. V ery good 4.25 pts.


Elegance: Interesting, simple progression. I didn`t find obvious cheese or illegalities, which is good for you. Take 4.5pts


Power: Horrible BAB, but ways around that At will AOO provoking with huge range and number of attacks at late levels makes you icnredible at what you do.

But even with that your glaring weaknesses are range and not being able to fly. A few more Warlock levels might have solved that.
Still very good at core Area. 3,75

Memorability:

This thing is going to be remembered, yeah. Nothing more to add. 4.5


Total: Very good 17.00 pts







Entry 3:


Originality: I did not expect a Symbiotic Creature at all, probably since it does not per se offer a second head. Good find! 4.5pts


Elegance: I do not think this works quite the way you think. You dont just build 3 characters, dump the unnecessary stats and fuse them when using symbiotic creature. Some of your tricks work the way you state, but the combined stats and hence some feats/tricks do not.
Overall a bit cheesy, slightly illegal, and many classes leave you at 2.00


Power:

If everything worked the way you intend, which I am assuming for not penalizing the same flaw twice, the power level is quite high. Even if he does not really have ways to deal with ranged enemies/most casters, he does fill his niche well.

3.75


Memorability:

Nice story, if the players get it (and get behind it) a memorable character through most of a campaign, or even longer. If they do not, its a weird single enemy psycho (intentional pun) combo.

3.25

Total Points 13.5pts






Entry 4:



Originality:

A big multiheaded snake, expected. Binder and Elder Evil Devotion? Not so much. Still the overall build is simple, so a slightly below average 2.75

Elegance: Which gives you a big boost on Elegance. Aside from Extra Vile Feats, it cant get any more elgant than Racial HD+single class. Excellent 5.00

Power: I admit, this one was hard. At my first jugding I had it much lower, but your info posts did in the end convince me that it had enough versatility and raw power to get it up to a full 4.00

Memorability: If the Player Characters realize who it serves (and since its only real existence is at CL 20 they will), good. Not great, as it lacks the „Meets them a few times“ of more … developing characters, but good. 3.5

Total: 15.25pts





Entry 5:



Originality: A twoheaded Troll with Shadow Template? Didn`t see that coming. The Class Combo is also not really expected, and a semistealth focus on a Giant type is really ...different.
4.00

Elegance: Race, Template, unfinished classes. Simple, cheesefree enough, but nothing is „finished“. Still, nothing illegal either, so a good 4.00


Power: Another not easy one. On the surface its a mediocre bruiser Gish, but the stealth abilities and some minor tricks make it more adaptable than expected. Overall I give it a good to very good 3.5

Memorability: If you use the pic from your post: immense. ;=)

Jokes aside, another hit or miss. If your Players have some humor, and the presentation works, great. Otherwise good but nothing special (unusual Giant Warrior is unusual).
3.5

Total: 15.00






Entry 6:





Originality: Nothing innovative there, except for the (cheesy, see below) combination of the whole. Fun though, so I`ll give it a fair 2.5

Elegance: 2 Cheesy abuses means - pts. A Dip that is always used this way another -. No real illegalities I can spot, so you can rest easy on 3.00pts

Power: Yikes, semiepic to epic in the whole CR area. Rule abuse is scary, even if it lacks real ranged options/flight, that gives you 4.75pts.

Memorability: for sheer „we actually survived that nightmare? Effect, if not for fluff or style, I give you 4.00


Total: 14.25pts





Entry 7:



Memorability: Well well well, that is really unexpected, and in a cool way too. Take 4.5!

Elegance: A weer bit cheesy, but nothing even remotely illegal. A few more classes than is strictly elegant, but all fit the theme well/are necessary (you could argue against contemplative at most).
Good 3.5pts

Power: If everything works the way you spell it (and most DM`s would probably ignore the problem of handling material components for the sorcerer casting, I know I would), this rocks. If the casting is advanced with the racial HD, it rocks even more. Flexibility, Power, all check.
4.75

Memorability: Are you fricking kidding me? A dual Caster swarm of Ravens? Unlikely to ever be forgotten if you ask me! Nice story and mood as well, take almost perfec 4.75

Total: 17.5pts









Honorable mention goes to Chuck and Rufus. Just for the sheer lolz. :P

[remetagross]

Hahaha crazy funny idea ^^ if a bit too gimmicky, maybe...

[Deadline]

Given the contest will be running into November... well, it's largely an American/Canadian holiday, but a Thanksgiving theme... I was going to say, must involve a "bird", but I've got a better idea:

Swallow Whole.

While solid, it may be better to swing a little wide and go for a "feasting" or "hunger" theme. Then again, I do like crazy tight restrictions. :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

A Hunger/Feasting/Swallow Whole riound would be interesting.

If we go with Halloween themed, someone suggested a Creepy Clown round a while back, as well.

[The Viscount]

Many thanks GrayDeath!
Any of these themes sounds good to me.

[Darrin]

A Hunger/Feasting/Swallow Whole riound would be interesting.


I think I like that idea... Open it up to hunger, feeding... We could call it:

Feed me, Seymour!

[alpine]

I also like swallow whole and would like to try a round with more restrictions. A duo would also be kinda cool. If we're going to do headless I would like a clarification on what counts as a head given the long discussion earlier in this thread on the subject.

Also thanks for getting the judging done GrayDeath!

[Baby Gary]

A Hunger/Feasting/Swallow Whole riound would be interesting.

If we go with Halloween themed, someone suggested a Creepy Clown round a while back, as well.

I would like to see a creepy clown, that would have some really cool creations (but I can't think of anything that would work)

[Technetium43]

I would also love a jester/clown themed round. Very thematic. :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

My HM goes to Aperantos: it was very close between him and The Unkindness of Hextor; I really like ravens, and I really like Yuan-ti/snakes. :smalltongue:

[jdizzlean]

Taman and Thoron: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425409&postcount=61) Monster of Legend Dvati Conjuror 2/Ruathar 3/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5
Boney Bonnie: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425419&postcount=62) Awakened Skeleton 12-headed Pyrohydra Warhulk 10/Warlock 4
Masa and Mune: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425426&postcount=63) Symbiotic Human Soulknife 4/Warblade 7/Warmind 7/Fighter 1//Feat Rogue 4/Cobra Strike Monk 2/Skilled City Dweller Fighter 2/Skilled City Dweller Psychic Warrior 1/Elocator 3/Fortune’s Friend 5
Aperantos: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425434&postcount=64) Yuan-ti Anathema Binder 2
Chuck and Rufus: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425436&postcount=65) Shadow Multiheaded Primordial Giant Troll Duskblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Duskblade 8
The Fleichshriver Horror: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425440&postcount=66) Half-Fiend Multiheaded (ten heads) Phaerlin Giant Barbarian 1/Swordsage 8
The Unkindness of Hextor: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425446&postcount=67) Hivemind Murder of Crows of Legend Cloistered Cleric 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Contemplative 2



Entry
Creator
Judge 1
Judge 2
Judge 3
Total
Ranking


Taman and Thoron
???
-
-
-
-
-


Boney Bonnie
???
-
-
-
-
-


Masa and Mune
???
-
-
-
-
-


Aperantos
???
-
-
-
-
-


Chuck and Rufus
???
-
-
-
-
-


The Fleichshriver Horror
???
-
-
-
-
-


The Unkindness of Hextor
???
-
-
-
-
-



...I'm already torn between two entries for my Honorable Mention. I'll say it again: great entries this round!

anyone care to comb the thread to compile this info?

[Inevitability]

Two more 'disputes', of a kind.


Hey all, can we just double check that the original judging from jdizzlean has been updated for the corrections/updates for the Fleichsriver Horror?

Just wanted to get this sorted before we tally up totals, thanks.


Oh, and for GrayDeath: the Horror does actually have a fly speed. Very happy with a 4.75 in the power category, though, so I won't push the point too much.

[jdizzlean]

i didn't go back and edit the scores in my original post as i was buried under an avalanche of disputes. I probably had 3 separate windows of this thread open everytime i was answering one so i I didn't have to scroll all over the place.

Work has been **** the past two weeks ( I primarily get time on this board, or these comps at work :) ) So i've been mentally drained, which is why i quoted that table and suggested someone go thru and tally the changes up :)

still have 2.5 hours to go on this shift before the weekend, and just want a beer lol.

stupid adulting.

[Blue Jay]

Here, Jdizzlean, I got your back. I think this represents the current state of affairs:



Entry
Creator
Judge 1
Judge 2
Judge 3
Total
Ranking


Taman and Thoron
???
9.25
12.75
-
22
(disqualified)


Boney Bonnie
???
16.5
17
-
33.5
1st


Masa and Mune
???
11
13.5
-
24.5
6th


Aperantos
???
12
15.25
-
27.25
5th


Chuck and Rufus
???
14.25
15
-
29.25
4th


The Fleichshriver Horror
???
18
14.25
-
32.25
3rd


The Unkindness of Hextor
???
15.25
17.5
-
32.75
2nd

[ben-zayb]

Honorable Mention goes to Chuck and Rufus.:smallannoyed::smallamused:

[jdizzlean]

Honorable Mention goes to Chuck and Rufus.:smallannoyed::smallamused:

ditto

It's hilarious :)

[remetagross]

Same for me :)

[GrayDeath]

Seems I started a Train(TM), go on, everyone jump on the Lolztrain, its fun up here!

[ben-zayb]

Seems I started a Train(TM), go on, everyone jump on the Lolztrain, its fun up here!
I'm pretty impressed with these entries, but this one just came out of left field and it worked!

[Thurbane]

While we're waiting for this one to be finalized, and new comp to be posted, why not take a look at Junkyard Wars XVI (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?p=22532770)? :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

The (belated) reveal! If anyone wishes to suggest a follow-up round, feel free to do so!

Blue Jay, thanks for the table!



Entry
Creator
Judge 1
Judge 2
Judge 3
Total
Ranking


Taman and Thoron
Thurbane
9.25
12.75
-
22
(disqualified)


Boney Bonnie
Macabaret
16.5
17
-
33.5
1st


Masa and Mune
daremetoidareyo
11
13.5
-
24.5
6th


Aperantos
Technetium43
12
15.25
-
27.25
5th


Chuck and Rufus
The Viscount
14.25
15
-
29.25
4th


The Fleichshriver Horror
Thurbane
18
14.25
-
32.25
3rd


The Unkindness of Hextor
alpine
15.25
17.5
-
32.75
2nd

[daremetoidareyo]

I've gotten last place in like every villainous comp.

[Thurbane]

I've gotten last place in like every villainous comp.

Well, technically I was last, but disqualified. Devastated about Taman & Thoron - I was 100% sure Dvati were monstrous humanoids. :smallfrown:

Until second judging, I was 1st with The Fleichshriver Horror. :smalltongue: This entry was an afterthought, T&T was my main idea.

FWIW, I made an error with the stat calculations, but the end stats are correct:


OK, not sure how I got this so wrong. Went through many variations on this build, and obviously grabbed wrong ability figures someone from the wrong document along the line.

Here's the correction:

Str 28, Dex 14, Con 38, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 18
Array: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha14; Racial: Str +10/+4, Dex -2/+4, Con +8/+2/+20, Int -2/+4, Wis -2, Cha -2/+2; HD/Levels: Str +1, Int +1, Cha +4

Str 28, Dex 14, Con 38, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 18
Array: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 13; Racial: Str +10/+4, Dex -2/+4, Con +8/+2/+20, Int -2/+4, Wis -2, Cha -2/+2; HD/Levels: Int +1, Wis +1, Cha +5

The stats were right, but the calculations/assignment to get to the final figures was wrong. No change to final stats as presented, so hopefully shouldn't penalize the entry (too much). Just wanted to make my calculations clearer for judges.

I didn't want to bring this up before the final reveal, but in regards to The Unkindness of Hextor: can the innate Cleric-like casting from MoL be stacked with Cloistered Cleric?

[ben-zayb]

I'd still nominate a spirit-themed round, but I gotta admit that Swallow Whole or gluttony as a theme would be definitely intriguing.


I've gotten last place in like every villainous comp.
Having even such an interesting character concept place last, I think, taking nothing away from the character, speaks more about just how great the qualities of entries this round has.

[Thurbane]

Cold Blooded (reptiles/dragons etc.)
Evil Clown
Headless
Keeper of the Gate (guardian of a place or thing)
Non-evil Villain
PokéMaster (minionmancy)
Politician
Spirit/Soul Themed
Swallow Whole
Untouchable
Villain Duo
Yin and Yang (opposing themes within the one build)

[alpine]

I vote for swallow whole, guardian of the gate or a villain duo.

[Baby Gary]

I vote for yin and yang, aka two sides of one coin

[GrayDeath]

Cold Blooded (reptiles/dragons etc.)
Evil Clown
Headless
Keeper of the Gate (guardian of a place or thing)
Non-evil Villain
PokéMaster (minionmancy)
Politician
Spirit/Soul Themed
Swallow Whole
Untouchable
Villain Duo
Yin and Yang (opposing themes within the one build)


These are my Votes. If it should come up to a tie, my usual Vote for the Nonevil/Unlikely Villain still stands prior, the other three would go in order of YYIn/Yang, Politician, healdess.

[alpine]

Can someone give an example of a yin and yang villain? maybe from pop culture? I'm just not getting the intention.

[Seto]

Can someone give an example of a yin and yang villain? maybe from pop culture? I'm just not getting the intention.

From manga/anime: Naruto Shippuden's Zetsu qualifies (he's literally Yin-Yang inspired). From Yugioh, the Rare Hunters Lumis and Umbra spring to mind, but it actually applies to a lot of the cast (with Shadow versions and whatnot).

From D&D: I'm thinking something like Demogorgon, with one head emphasizing Destruction and the other Deception.

From elsewhere, arguably the Avatar (from ATLA) if they were a villain, since they represent balance between opposing elements and uses all of them. But the examples that spring most to my mind are bosses from videogame JRPGs: in Zelda, you've got Trinnex, a tri-headed turtle whose left head breathes ice and right head breathes fire; in Chrono Trigger, you have similar bosses that you have to hit with a specific element in a specific part, but if you hit another part with the same thing you risk healing them. Etc.
It would have to be defined though, because there's a lot to be done creatively with that kind of theme: light/darkness, hope/despair, fire/ice, sun/moon etc... As long as it's reflected mechanically I guess.

[Technetium43]

I would also like to toss my vote in for a non-evil villain. Primarily because all of the other ones could, theoretically, be used in many other themes as a secondary theme, while non-evil villains will, by the rules of the competition, never show up EXCEPT in this one round, so it has no overlap with any other theme, giving it a much wider pool of potential concepts to draw from.

[Thurbane]

Can someone give an example of a yin and yang villain? maybe from pop culture? I'm just not getting the intention.

Demodragon (from the D&D cartoon) wields fire and ice, what are commonly seen to be two opposing energies.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vt749aV4Y7Q/TQ1JTpaKkOI/AAAAAAAAF20/j6ukIp2U9qA/s1600/demodragon.jpg

[PrismCat21]

Demodragon (from the D&D cartoon) wields fire and ice, what are commonly seen to be two opposing energies.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vt749aV4Y7Q/TQ1JTpaKkOI/AAAAAAAAF20/j6ukIp2U9qA/s1600/demodragon.jpg

Sadly, Demodragon was ultimately defeated by a cutting of a plant, made into a Garland worn by a baby unicorn. :Elan:

[EndocrineBandit]

The shadow ninja prestige class from tome of battle is based around yin and yang, isnt it? Positive and negative energy?

[Inevitability]

I may be somewhat biased *cough*lawfulneutralbestalignment*cough* but the next theme shall be 'non-evil villains'. I've made a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541650-Villainous-Competition-XXIV-Wrong-For-The-Right-Reasons&p=22558340#post22558340) where all can move to now. Start your plotting!


The shadow ninja prestige class from tome of battle is based around yin and yang, isnt it? Positive and negative energy?

Shadow Sun Ninja, it's called. And yes, it would fit the theme should we ever end up picking it.

[Deadline]

Shadow Sun Ninja, it's called. And yes, it would fit the theme should we ever end up picking it.

It would, but I'd like to point out it's already covered group in the sense that it was an Iron Chef ingredient.

[Thurbane]

Shadow Sun Ninja also has a req of "Alignment: Any good", which could make it difficult to use in VC.

[Inevitability]

Shadow Sun Ninja also has a req of "Alignment: Any good", which could make it difficult to use in VC.

Well, it won't in the current round. :smalltongue: