Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian clarification

[weckar]

So, this is something that's been coming up. Do you need 1 or 3 levels to get the pounce ability? It says you gain the ability at level 3, but it is unclear in whether that's 3 levels of barbarian or CL 3. Has there ever been any official word on this?

[darkbuu_1]

Level 3 normally means at the 3rd level of that class, so yes barbarian 3. But which source are you using?

Complete Champion (p46) says that the 1st level of Spirit Lion Totem grants you Pounce and takes your Fast Movement. Which might be where the confusion is coming from if you're looking at guides that are only recommend a single level of it.

[weckar]

This is what my Complete Champion says:
Regal and intimidating, the powerful lion is a symbol of nobility among the races of the wild. By selecting him as your spiritual totem, you gain the pounce (MM313) ability at Level 3.It still replaces the lv 1 ability Fast movement.

[Darrin]

This is what mine says:



Regal and intimidating, the powerful lion is a symbol of nobility among the races of the wild. By selecting him as your spiritual totem, you gain the pounce ability (MM 313).

[weckar]

Strange... mind checking your printing?

[mattie_p]

Mine also says level 1. Question, are you using a foreign language edition? Some of the foreign reprints have changes, it might be the case here as well.

[weckar]

Just got to work so AFB. It's English, but...

I'll let you know when I get home. This is bothering me.

[darkbuu_1]

That's really strange, my book along with a few others I check didn't have that extra line of text. I did see a a site or two suggesting that it should come later since it's really good, I did manage to find one site that listed it which also specified that it was a Supernatural ability upfront since since you didn't mention that I'll assume that was an unrelated site.

Odd, I don't know what to say I'm afraid.

[Eldariel]

That's really strange, my book along with a few others I check didn't have that extra line of text. I did see a a site or two suggesting that it should come later since it's really good, I did manage to find one site that listed it which also specified that it was a Supernatural ability upfront since since you didn't mention that I'll assume that was an unrelated site.

Odd, I don't know what to say I'm afraid.

For most characters it won't even matter before level 5-6 when Haste and iteratives come into play. TWF Barbarian is kinda silly though Whirling Frenzy of course does make Pounce more useful early on. But yeah, I don't remember ever reading this.

[Red Fel]

The thing to remember is that any ACF or variant that swaps out class features generally does so at the level at which they come online. Exceptions arise in the ones that say things like, "At level A, lose this ability. At levels B, C, and D, gain these." For example, there's a Paladin variant that loses spellcasting - which is gained at a 4th level - but gains feats at successive levels, as a Fighter would. But generally, if you lose something at level A to gain something else, you gain that something else at level A.

Thus, lose Fast Movement, gain Pounce, immediately. Although, as has been mentioned, it's mostly irrelevant until you gain a second iterative attack.

[weckar]

It's relevant for dipping.

Other sources are starting to indicate my book MAY be a forgery...

[ksbsnowowl]

Other sources are starting to indicate my book MAY be a forgery...

Physical book? Or PDF?

What is the listed printing date on the front title page?

[Gusmo]

It's been 'forum wisdom' for years that getting pounce requires only a 1 level dip. I would be very surprised if so many people have been wrong about it for all these years. I don't have a physical copy of Complete Champion, so I can't help on that front.

[Aimeryan]

Although, as has been mentioned, it's mostly irrelevant until you gain a second iterative attack.

Technically you don't replace the attack at the end of a charge with a full attack; you follow it:


Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to
twice your speed and attack during the action.


Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack
makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including
rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability

Pounce = [Charge] + Full Attack
Pounce = [Move + Attack] + Full Attack

Note, this is actually weaker in some ways; multipliers that apply on a charge now only apply on that one attack in the charge, not the full attack. Valorous, lance, etc.

Another example, written a slightly different way:


Psionic Lion's Charge:
You gain the powerful charging ability of a lion. When you charge,
you can make a full attack in the same round.

A charge and the full attack from pounce are meant to be separate actions just chained together - sort of like a more immediate Linked Power (Complete Psionic, pg 62). Psionic Lion's Charge is even interpretable as allowing you to take other actions in between the charge and the full attack.

[The Viscount]

Psionic Lion's Charge is also notable in that it has an instantaneous duration, so a single manifesting is all you ever need.

[Aimeryan]

Psionic Lion's Charge is also notable in that it has an instantaneous duration, so a single manifesting is all you ever need.

And the exponential augmentation :thog:

Still though!

[Rijan_Sai]

Psionic Lion's Charge is also notable in that it has an instantaneous duration, so a single manifesting is all you ever need.
This... this is dirty, and slightly cheesy, and un-errata'd! I like it! :smallamused:

And the exponential augmentation :thog:

Still though!
This part, however...

Augment

For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent.

I'm still a little confused how the "exponential" part works... but also, while the ability to pounce may last forever, the augmentation only lasts to the end of "the current round." So there is reason to re-manifest later!

[galan]

I'm still a little confused how the "exponential" part works...
look at the wording. For each point spent, you gain a bonus for each point. So if you spend 1 extra PP, you gain +1 for 1 point. If you spend 2, you gain +2 for the first point, and +2 for the second, for a total of +4. 3 points would net you a +9 total, and so on

[ATHATH]

The thing to remember is that any ACF or variant that swaps out class features generally does so at the level at which they come online. Exceptions arise in the ones that say things like, "At level A, lose this ability. At levels B, C, and D, gain these." For example, there's a Paladin variant that loses spellcasting - which is gained at a 4th level - but gains feats at successive levels, as a Fighter would. But generally, if you lose something at level A to gain something else, you gain that something else at level A.

Thus, lose Fast Movement, gain Pounce, immediately. Although, as has been mentioned, it's mostly irrelevant until you gain a second iterative attack.
Really? My interpretation was always that, unless the ACF said otherwise (which they often did, IIRC), any bonuses or penalties gained from the ACF were gained at first level. Substitution levels, of course, only kick in at the level that they are taken at.

Do you have a rules-citation for your claim?

[Rijan_Sai]

look at the wording. For each point spent, you gain a bonus for each point. So if you spend 1 extra PP, you gain +1 for 1 point. If you spend 2, you gain +2 for the first point, and +2 for the second, for a total of +4. 3 points would net you a +9 total, and so on

Thanks! It took me a few tries, (4 hours of sleep will do that to you...) but I think I've got my mind to parse the wording in the way that makes that work! (Pretty sure it's not "supposed" to work that way, rather should be a 1-1 exchange, but at least I can see how it could work!)

Edit: And honestly, I'm not really against it! Considering that it is primarily the Psychic Warrior that will have that power, and given their general lack of pp compared to the Psion/Wilder, this would basically be their "Go Nova!" that still has a 5% minimum chance per attack to miss...

[Thurbane]

I believe there may some confusion going on between Spiritual Totem (Lion) ACF (Complete Champion p. 46) and the Lion Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#lionTotemClassFeatures ) ACF (Unearthed Aracana p.49)?

No, on a second read through, that's not what's happening at all. Checked my physical copy, and no mention of level 3.