Borrowed Magic

[Drakevarg]

I'm well-established as disliking the ability to just wave your fingers to make a problem go away. Years ago I tried making it so casting spells had a chance to drop Cthulhu on your head. Terrible idea, obviously. Since then I've attempted various combinations of banning casters, only allowing invokers, or just keeping everyone to mundanes. The reality of the matter is, though, that 3.5e encounters trouble when you pull out magic.

Most obviously, healing. My current thought is to make it so nonmagical healing can be done with a DC 15 Heal check, healing the target by whatever you beat the DC by, up to their HD.

However, both that and another problem (namely, DR/Magic) can be solved by allowing alchemical potion brewing. I developed a system for this a few years ago, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?270807-3-5-Noncaster-Potions-(PEACH)) and while it's a good foundation to work with, I'm not really satisfied with it in terms of maintaining the overall "magic is not a toy for mortals" feeling.

I'm a big fan of Incantations, as presented in Unearthed Arcana. They're wonderfully flavorful, are a great way to get 6-9th level spell powers into play without making them feel trivial, and since each one is hand-crafted I both can completely control what is accessible and can let them do whatever the plot calls for. I'd like to do something similar for potions, filling the same niche for 1-3rd level spells. The idea I've been playing with today is to make it so potions have toxicity, basically doubling as poisons. When you take one, you make a save - beat it, you get the potion effect. Fail it, and you still get the potion effect... but also take damage as if you had imbibed a poison.

While this works to keep potions from being a simple powerup by introducing some level of risk to them, it doesn't really introduce any gameplay element to producing them in the first place. I'd like to come up with some kind of Incantation-esque gameplay element to potion brewing and I was wondering if the lot of you had any ideas.

There's also Touchstone Sites, which might work as an avenue to filling the gap between potions and Incantations - powers and boons gotten from specific places that have to be earned rather than simply handed out. This works especially well since I'm running E6 - once they reach "epic" levels they'll be getting a constant stream of bonus feats, plenty of room to fit in Touchstones.

Are there any other suggestions out there? Preferably things with some sort of established basis in gameplay, that grant limited supernatural abilities in exchange for appropriate effort. It is worth noting I plan on allowing half-casting PrCs as earned through story rewards, but other avenues are worth exploring rather than ad hoc'ing every instance of magic.

[The Vagabond]

I feel like, mechanically, having a save makes it feel like something that can be avoided.

Something akin to a witcher's toxicity, perhaps in 2 separate tracks related to Fortitude and Will (I don't think any spells rely on Reflexes) with each potion causing more and worse effects. Using spell level to determine your Toxicity might work well.

[Drakevarg]

I feel like, mechanically, having a save makes it feel like something that can be avoided.

To a certain degree, yeah, though with E6 saves aren't likely to get higher than +9, so it's not like the risk will ever become trivial. Plus using poison rules has mechanical precedent, which I think makes things easier to work with.


Something akin to a witcher's toxicity, perhaps in 2 separate tracks related to Fortitude and Will (I don't think any spells rely on Reflexes) with each potion causing more and worse effects. Using spell level to determine your Toxicity might work well.

Perhaps something akin to Taint from HoH, using the Corruption and Depravity tracks?

As an aside: another source of 'borrowed' power I forgot to list in the OP: Runic Circles from Races of Stone. Seem like they could be pretty interesting to work with, like low-powered sustained Incantations.

[rel]

maybe roguelike style divine blessings as another source of power?

[Crake]

Drakevarg, I feel almost like I'm looking at a reflection of my own past few years of experience as a DM! It honestly sounds like you've had the same sentiment toward running games as I've had.

One suggestion regarding healing is to run the wounds/vitality system. It makes recovering from fights at most a day or two if they were really badly wounded, or as little as just a few hours of rest for a minor scuffle. It does make critical hits far more dangerous though, so you'll have to be careful with that.

I run a low/no magic item game, and use pathfinder's automatic bonus progresion to cover the bonuses. To overcome things like DR/magic, or alignment based DR, you pretty much need to hunt down special materials that cover that (3.5 has a lot of special materials that cover almost every niche you could need). Any time I would normally roll magic loot or magic items in town, I instead roll on a list of special materials and see what's available. Some of them can get very expensive, so it certainly still gives the players something to spend their money on without worrying about filling all their magic item slots and having 'the best' gear.

As for magic, I've been toying with the idea over the last couple of days of having a skill based magic system that's sort of built off the invocations rules. Typical magic and spells would become long rituals, and each school of magic would become it's own skill, and be tied to a certain ability score that I feel makes the mose sense for it, and you would use that skill to try and cast spells. They would become pretty much an exclusively out of combat thing, but anyone who's willing to invest the skill points (and find a plausible reason in game as to where they learned the skills of course) could manage to cast spells. For in-combat "casting" I would simply point players to invokers like the warlock and the dragonfire adept to cover their blasting desires. Obviously some spells would become practically useless with this system, namely something like fireball, or lightning bolt would only become useful for a plot based reason, if there's a door that can only be opened by summoning elemental fire or lightning or whatever, and it would generally make evocation quite lackluster though I might allow evokers to take some of the damage-oriented reserve feats as some sort of compensation.

The system definitely needs a lot more work, it's basically still just a thought in my head, but hopefully I've given you some food for thought in my suggestions!

[Drakevarg]

One suggestion regarding healing is to run the wounds/vitality system. It makes recovering from fights at most a day or two if they were really badly wounded, or as little as just a few hours of rest for a minor scuffle. It does make critical hits far more dangerous though, so you'll have to be careful with that.

I've been rather ambivalent towards the wounds/vitality system, as while it is interesting it seems too prone to harshly punishing bad luck, as even the hardiest of characters can have all their hard-earned vitality points straight-up ignored if someone rolls a 20. D&D can be bad enough about holding you to the ineffable will of the dice without more help.


I run a low/no magic item game, and use pathfinder's automatic bonus progresion to cover the bonuses. To overcome things like DR/magic, or alignment based DR, you pretty much need to hunt down special materials that cover that (3.5 has a lot of special materials that cover almost every niche you could need). Any time I would normally roll magic loot or magic items in town, I instead roll on a list of special materials and see what's available. Some of them can get very expensive, so it certainly still gives the players something to spend their money on without worrying about filling all their magic item slots and having 'the best' gear.

I'd have to pour through my books to figure out a full list, but insofar as I can recall or easily look up, there aren't any materials that just count as magic for the purposes of DR, save for the ones that just say "if you have X creature type, you don't get DR, I don't care what it is." That said, I like the idea - having to hunt down the one thing that can properly harm the monster is a time-honored quest hook.


As for magic, I've been toying with the idea over the last couple of days of having a skill based magic system that's sort of built off the invocations rules. Typical magic and spells would become long rituals, and each school of magic would become it's own skill, and be tied to a certain ability score that I feel makes the mose sense for it, and you would use that skill to try and cast spells. They would become pretty much an exclusively out of combat thing, but anyone who's willing to invest the skill points (and find a plausible reason in game as to where they learned the skills of course) could manage to cast spells. For in-combat "casting" I would simply point players to invokers like the warlock and the dragonfire adept to cover their blasting desires. Obviously some spells would become practically useless with this system, namely something like fireball, or lightning bolt would only become useful for a plot based reason, if there's a door that can only be opened by summoning elemental fire or lightning or whatever, and it would generally make evocation quite lackluster though I might allow evokers to take some of the damage-oriented reserve feats as some sort of compensation.

I suppose I should clarify my intent here: one of the basic rules of my setting is that mortals are incapable of magic on their own. Magic is exclusively something borrowed from spirits, and usually at a pretty steep price. Either through pacts, or using items with a particular spirit living in them, it's very much meant to strike an occult/witchcraft sort of tone where more often than not you're essentially walking around with an SCP in your pocket. So all the systems I'm trying to work out - Incantations, Potions, Touchstones, Rune Circles, things I might not've thought of yet - are meant to maintain the idea that this magic does not belong to you. While from a gameplay standpoint invocation (skill-based or class-based) is I think an appropriate balance, from a tone standpoint I think it leaves the user too much control.

[ATHATH]

Consider adapting some of Shadowrun 5e's magic (or just its alchemical, summoning, and/or ritual magic) for your game. The Street Grimoire and the core rulebook are where most of that stuff can be found.

[Psyren]

I think you're on the right track with alchemy. Pathfinder added a slew of alchemical creations (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/goods-and-services/alchemical-creations/) you can pilfer for a 3.5 low-magic campaign; simply also port the rule that mundanes can craft alchemical items too.

[Deadline]

For non-magical healing, you could also look at the way Iron Heroes works. It's kinda like the wounds/vitality system, but without the swingy crit problem. Basically all heroes have a "reserve" pool of hitpoints that they can "heal" from after a fight. Normal healing from rest heals any damage first (in the event that they emptied their reserve pool and then took additional damage), then heals the reserve pool (at an accelerated rate, I think). So if the characters push themselves too far (i.e. empty out their reserve pool and take more damage), then they could find themselves laid up for a few days. Otherwise, they can recover quickly after a fight and don't need magical healing. Keep in mind that Iron Heroes uses a sort of "Armor as DR" system as well, which helps reduce the amount of incoming damage received.

[Drakevarg]

For non-magical healing, you could also look at the way Iron Heroes works. It's kinda like the wounds/vitality system, but without the swingy crit problem. Basically all heroes have a "reserve" pool of hitpoints that they can "heal" from after a fight. Normal healing from rest heals any damage first (in the event that they emptied their reserve pool and then took additional damage), then heals the reserve pool (at an accelerated rate, I think). So if the characters push themselves too far (i.e. empty out their reserve pool and take more damage), then they could find themselves laid up for a few days. Otherwise, they can recover quickly after a fight and don't need magical healing. Keep in mind that Iron Heroes uses a sort of "Armor as DR" system as well, which helps reduce the amount of incoming damage received.

Interesting notion. I'm already using both the 'Defense Bonus' and 'Armor as Damage Reduction' rules from Unearthed Arcana, which I'm hoping will mitigate the need for healing somewhat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm well-established as disliking the ability to just wave your fingers to make a problem go away. Years ago I tried making it so casting spells had a chance to drop Cthulhu on your head. Terrible idea, obviously. Since then I've attempted various combinations of banning casters, only allowing invokers, or just keeping everyone to mundanes. The reality of the matter is, though, that 3.5e encounters trouble when you pull out magic.
Then you probably should not play 3.5. It's a system built around magic being common and reliable; you can't remove it without having to rewrite significant parts of the game.

[Psyren]

Then you probably should not play 3.5. It's a system built around magic being common and reliable; you can't remove it without having to rewrite significant parts of the game.

Given the E6 tag on the thread, I'd say he is in fact using a significant rewrite.

[Drakevarg]

Then you probably should not play 3.5. It's a system built around magic being common and reliable; you can't remove it without having to rewrite significant parts of the game.

Should I just leave a line in my sig to never suggest this to me again? I've heard it a million times and I'm sick of it. I've run many campaigns with low-or-no magic, it's totally doable if you're careful. What I'm trying to do here is refine the process, not make it work in the first place.

[Deadline]

Should I just leave a line in my sig to never suggest this to me again? I've heard it a million times and I'm sick of it. I've run many campaigns with low-or-no magic, it's totally doable if you're careful. What I'm trying to do here is refine the process, not make it work in the first place.

I stopped short of just fully recommending using Iron Heroes in its entirety because most folks usually respond with a similar sentiment. That being said, now that I think more about the system, you'd probably really like the magic system that is used (it's optional, and dangerous as all get out for the user). I guess what I'm saying is, take a look at Iron Heroes, it's basically designed to do what it looks like you are doing with E6 and your restrictions. Our group played a really successful and enjoyable viking revenge campaign with it, and didn't miss magic at all. The mundane threats we faced were significant, and the magical threats we faced were very dangerous (at least in part because energy damage ignores DR, so even torches, fire arrows, and alchemical items are perfectly viable from levels 1-20). There are a host of interesting mechanics that involve building up pools of points to spend on tactical actions, which works really well and is surprisingly engaging. My only word of caution would be: the Armiger class probably needs a slight boost, and the Harrier class probably needs to be watched carefully at higher levels (12+). Every other class works really well, and it's refreshing to play a game with no magic or magic items needed for your heroes.

[Drakevarg]

I stopped short of just fully recommending using Iron Heroes in its entirety because most folks usually respond with a similar sentiment. That being said, now that I think more about the system, you'd probably really like the magic system that is used (it's optional, and dangerous as all get out for the user). I guess what I'm saying is, take a look at Iron Heroes, it's basically designed to do what it looks like you are doing with E6 and your restrictions. Our group played a really successful and enjoyable viking revenge campaign with it, and didn't miss magic at all. The mundane threats we faced were significant, and the magical threats we faced were very dangerous (at least in part because energy damage ignores DR, so even torches, fire arrows, and alchemical items are perfectly viable from levels 1-20). There are a host of interesting mechanics that involve building up pools of points to spend on tactical actions, which works really well and is surprisingly engaging. My only word of caution would be: the Armiger class probably needs a slight boost, and the Harrier class probably needs to be watched carefully at higher levels (12+). Every other class works really well, and it's refreshing to play a game with no magic or magic items needed for your heroes.

This suggestion, at least, is a bit more palatable given that Iron Heroes is essentially already a heavily houseruled 3.5e. Which is significantly less obnoxious than someone suggesting I pick up Call of Cthulhu or some other largely-unrelated pet system. I doubt I'll pick it up for this campaign, but it's something I'll keep my eye on for the future.

That said, advice within the system I'm already using is always more helpful than suggesting another system altogether, as it eliminates the need for a learning curve.

[Crake]

I've been rather ambivalent towards the wounds/vitality system, as while it is interesting it seems too prone to harshly punishing bad luck, as even the hardiest of characters can have all their hard-earned vitality points straight-up ignored if someone rolls a 20. D&D can be bad enough about holding you to the ineffable will of the dice without more help.

To be fair, they do still need to confirm the hit. I also combine the system with armor as DR (without actually reducing the amount of AC the armor gives you) to make hits more survivable I see you'rea already using that and class defence. Gosh your rules so closely match my own! Anyway, in the confines of e6, you're rarely going to have a circumstance where a single crit will eat up all of a character's wounds. Especially if they get feats like improved toughness and whatnot, which, according to the wounds/vitality system, anything that directly increases your normal HP pool increases wounds under that system. It's worked quite well for me and my players thus far, with a complete lack of magical healing, and I don't believe there has been a case where a player has taken a crit and immediately dropped because of it as of yet, mostly just the fatigue that gets them.


I'd have to pour through my books to figure out a full list, but insofar as I can recall or easily look up, there aren't any materials that just count as magic for the purposes of DR, save for the ones that just say "if you have X creature type, you don't get DR, I don't care what it is." That said, I like the idea - having to hunt down the one thing that can properly harm the monster is a time-honored quest hook.

Player's guide to eberron has cyrite, also referred to as arcane steel, which has the ability to bypass DR/magic. Check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442820-Special-Materials-Index) list, there's practically a special material for any type of DR you could imagine (save epic I believe), and for when you need to combine DRs to bypass say, good and cold iron, that's where you can use pathfinder's weapon blanches.


I suppose I should clarify my intent here: one of the basic rules of my setting is that mortals are incapable of magic on their own. Magic is exclusively something borrowed from spirits, and usually at a pretty steep price. Either through pacts, or using items with a particular spirit living in them, it's very much meant to strike an occult/witchcraft sort of tone where more often than not you're essentially walking around with an SCP in your pocket. So all the systems I'm trying to work out - Incantations, Potions, Touchstones, Rune Circles, things I might not've thought of yet - are meant to maintain the idea that this magic does not belong to you. While from a gameplay standpoint invocation (skill-based or class-based) is I think an appropriate balance, from a tone standpoint I think it leaves the user too much control.

Yeah, that's fair enough. You could look into the fiend of blasphemy, and apply it to creatures other than fiends, where the spirit will require the character to pledge themselves, giving the spirit a degree of control and authority over the character, while also being able to lend them some of their power in the form of granting them uses of their own SLAs (revokabe at will of course). There's also the spellcasting contract spells from pathfinder, normally limited to asmodeous clerics, but you could adapt it for other use. It's essentially imbue with spell ability, but less limited in terms of what spells are available, and the spirits decide which spells to give, and what conditions need to be met for those spells to be usable. For example, a demon might say that you can only cast a certain spell after the desecration of a grave, or the ritual sacrifice of an innocent, a fey spirit might require that you plant a tree at midnight, or safe a forest animal, and so on.

[Drakevarg]

To be fair, they do still need to confirm the hit. I also combine the system with armor as DR (without actually reducing the amount of AC the armor gives you) to make hits more survivable I see you'rea already using that and class defence. Gosh your rules so closely match my own! Anyway, in the confines of e6, you're rarely going to have a circumstance where a single crit will eat up all of a character's wounds. Especially if they get feats like improved toughness and whatnot, which, according to the wounds/vitality system, anything that directly increases your normal HP pool increases wounds under that system. It's worked quite well for me and my players thus far, with a complete lack of magical healing, and I don't believe there has been a case where a player has taken a crit and immediately dropped because of it as of yet, mostly just the fatigue that gets them.

Hm. I'll give it a bit more thought. With the amount of defensive houserules I have in play it might be workable, especially since it's a hell of a lot less complicated than Massive Damage rules.


Player's guide to eberron has cyrite, also referred to as arcane steel, which has the ability to bypass DR/magic. Check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442820-Special-Materials-Index) list, there's practically a special material for any type of DR you could imagine (save epic I believe), and for when you need to combine DRs to bypass say, good and cold iron, that's where you can use pathfinder's weapon blanches.

I more meant in terms of what I actually have available in my own library. Though since I'd almost certainly refluff all of it to fit the setting, it might be doable to borrow from online sources.


Yeah, that's fair enough. You could look into the fiend of blasphemy, and apply it to creatures other than fiends, where the spirit will require the character to pledge themselves, giving the spirit a degree of control and authority over the character, while also being able to lend them some of their power in the form of granting them uses of their own SLAs (revokabe at will of course). There's also the spellcasting contract spells from pathfinder, normally limited to asmodeous clerics, but you could adapt it for other use. It's essentially imbue with spell ability, but less limited in terms of what spells are available, and the spirits decide which spells to give, and what conditions need to be met for those spells to be usable. For example, a demon might say that you can only cast a certain spell after the desecration of a grave, or the ritual sacrifice of an innocent, a fey spirit might require that you plant a tree at midnight, or safe a forest animal, and so on.

Y'know, I never really looked all that close at the Fiend Folio PrCs because they were fiend-specific. But actually reading them, all three are pretty perfect for the tone I'm going for as long as you remove the Evil Outsider limitation. I wonder how well they mesh with the demonic possession/diabolic pact rules from the Fiendish Codexes, provided I ever pick those up.

EDIT: I found that Reserve Points as described by Deadline are in fact present in Unearthed Arcana. So it would basically be a matter of deciding whether Vitality/Wound points or Reserve points were preferable for my purposes.

[Drakevarg]

Had a chat with one of my players, we agreed Reserve Points were way less complicated to adopt, plus more tank-friendly. So that's taken care of.

The magic/alchemy stuff still needs consideration though. I took a look at the available special materials in my own books, I think I can use some of it, not sure how far I want to go with it but it's something.

[thorr-kan]

Consider adapting some of Shadowrun 5e's magic (or just its alchemical, summoning, and/or ritual magic) for your game. The Street Grimoire and the core rulebook are where most of that stuff can be found.
GURPS Spirits, or of you go old school, GURPS The Voodoo War might be worth looking over for inspiration. They're both versions of GURPS's ritual magic and are really useful for ritual ideas.

[thorr-kan]

As another late followup, The Game Mechanics resource for d20 Modern, Modern Magic 1, has "lesser incantations" that might be of use. The PDF is no longer available, but the hard copy might be available cheap.

They are basically incantations for lower level spells, as a supplement to incantations from d20 Modern and Unearthed Arcana.

Ritual Feats in 3.5 might be another source.

Paizo's Pychic Magic has rituals of some type, too, but I can't remember the name.

Zombie Sky Press has at least two good supplements on incantations as well.

[Psyren]

Paizo's Pychic Magic has rituals of some type, too, but I can't remember the name.


Occult Rituals (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-rules/occult-rituals/)

[thorr-kan]

Occult Rituals (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-rules/occult-rituals/)
That's the one!

You know, there are enough variant rules available to allow a DM a pretty robust low magic variation.

Incantations, lesser incantations, and occult rituals give magic anyone can use.

The alchemy skill gives you your item creation ability.

For strange and weird powers, there are devotion, divine, incarnum, martial adept, psionic, and ritual feats to flavor.